Let me be (carefully) honest

[cali]

The deaths of American soldiers in Iraq is a terribly sad monument to the political stupidity, cupidity and cowardice of American politicians, but I am more grieved and troubled by the deaths of Iraqis.

American service members sign up, knowing that they face the possibility of injury or death. The Iraqis didn't.

I wish Americans realized how truely awful things are in Iraq for Iraqis. No safe bases, no Green Zone for them. Llittle electricity, lack of water, the constant specter of violence at every turn. An infrastructure that far from being rebuilt, has been degraded.

The refugee numbers tell us everything we need to know about the conditions in Iraq: 2.2 million internal refugees, and 2 million who have managed to get out of the country. Can you imagine a situation so dire that 40 to 50 million Americans are displaced?

I'm all for getting out now, but the country is already wrecked beyond fixing. Read the transcript of Democracy Now! with Nir Rosen if you want to hear it described really eloquently.

I'm all for reparations to the Iraqis, but I'm under no illusions that that will help save a society that's been essentially obliterated.

Edited to add the transcript of Nir Rosen's interview with Amy Goodman, and a quote:


But no matter what, Iraq doesn’t exist anymore. Baghdad will never be in the hands of Sunnis again. Baghdad will be controlled by Shia militias. They’ve been cleansing all the Sunnis from Baghdad. So Sunnis are basically being pushed out of Iraq, period. They can go to the Anbar Province, which isn’t a very friendly place. I think you’ll see that there won’t be any more elections in Iraq. Maliki is the last prime minister Iraq will have for a long time. There is neither the infrastructure for elections anymore, nor the desire to have them, nor the ability of Iraqi groups to cooperate anymore. So what you’ll see is basically Mogadishu in Iraq: various warlords controlling small neighborhoods. And those who are by major resources, such as oil installations, obviously will be foreign-sponsored warlords who will be able to cut deals with us, the Chinese. But Iraq is destroyed, and I think we’ll see that this will spread throughout the region, and this will destabilize Syria, Lebanon and Jordan, as well.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/21/1349252

[Deja Q]

1. Nice to see someone else use the word 'cupidity'. Just to warn you,

you might get mocked for using it. :(

[cali]

6. It's such a fun word that it makes

the possibility of being mocked for it, worth the risk.

[shadowknows69]

2. Hear hear

and I won't be careful at all about it. Iraq didn't ask to be the "central front" in the war of resources. This obscene game played by our country to preserve our precious way of life. My way of life isn't worth one Iraqi life and its this fact that makes me feel so guilty sometimes I even feel like ending my own in some kind of karmic retribution for my country's actions. If I had my way we'd be in ancient Japan and the whole administration would be committing Sepukku for the dishonor they have caused all of us.

[AuntPatsy]

3. I fully agree with your op but to argue this point with far too many Americans results in nothing

more than being attacked as being unpatriotic, it sickens me.

[MisterHowdy]

4. Completely agree. n/t

Over there, families are dying, children included.
None of them wanted this.

American soldiers, at least, know what they are in for.

[goddess40]

5. I have one error to point out

"American service members sign up, knowing that they face the possibility of injury or death." - Yes, they signed up knowing they might face these things but they didn't sign up to be lied to and used as pawns for some sick bastards to grab power and wealth. They signed up to defend this country not illegally invade another country that did nothing to us.
I don't mean to rain on your parade, what you say about the Iraqis and their country is all too true but I just can't let the "they knew what they were in for" type statements go.

[cali]

8. Sorry, I don't agree.

They signed up to join the armed forces of a nation that has troops in dozens of countries and that has launched one military adventure after another. Many of them signed up after the war was launched. No, they didn't sign up to be llied to, but the made a choice to join the military, knowing that there was a risk they'd be injured or killed.

I feel terrible about those soldiers who suffer injury or death, but the fact remains: They made a choice.

[shadowknows69]

10. To jump on goddess' side for a second

in my experience there is a significant number of soldiers not reupping because of the war. Also as cali said there are those who even volunteer to go back sooner than they need to. The whole gamut is there.

[Marrah_G]

25. I agree, my brother is in Iraq

He joined the Navy via ROTC scholarship back in 1984. He knew what he was getting into and he never bitches or whines when he has been deployed. He retired in the mid 90's but was recalled to active duty this year. Still he goes there knowing he may be killed, he has a responsibility to the young sailors he leads. If he wasn't there someone else would be.

Iraqi's have no say in whether or not we are there and the Iraqi civilian deaths break my heart.

Iraqi's need to step up and stop murdering their own people. Our military needs to be redeployed away from the civilian population, they are not policemen. The whole damn world needs to step up (minus us) and force the warring sides to sit the hell down and work this out in a non-violent way.

The whole thing is one great big clusterfuck that NEVER should have happened.

Our soldiers are doing their job, acting upon the orders of the civilian government. * and his administration are the ones who need to shoulder all the blame for this. Someday the world will demand justice be wrought upon them.

[flashl]

11. May I suggest that SOME signed up for patriotic reasons

Recruiters are going into economically depressed neighborhoods within the U.S. and foreign countries flashing suitcases of money to entice desperate people.

Somehow, this government can offer new recruits a $60,000 bonus to go to war, but, can’t pay for healthcare, education, roads, create jobs that pay the same, etc. Go figure.

[cali]

13. Of course. I'm not trying to impugn service members n/t

[flashl]

24. It was not my intent to impugn service members

My response was to "American service members sign up, knowing that they face the possibility of injury or death."

While it is true that soldiers' "employment contract" is unlike any other in this society, I was trying to suggest that some individuals are pressed into service for reasons other that patriotism. For those who feel forced to gamble with their lives for a promise of a better future, I feel that it is simply shameful. My point is, I understand why they are there and I pray for all safe return.

[Toots]

20. but they didn't sign up to be lied to

Then they are very stupid people...It is well known and has been since before WW II that the Army, particularly officers, are notorious LIARS. It has been documented time and time again.

[goddess40]

23. Recruiters like to go after the young that don't know better

they promise them the world and being young and thinking they are invincible, a normal teenage thought, they join.

[Arugula Latte]

30. When I was 18 I had not a fraction of an inkling of the extent of this country's penchant for

doing harm to other countries through CIA/military/corporate tactics. The recruiters take advantage of that age group's naivete, idealism and gullibility, that is for sure.

[KharmaTrain]

7. Money Is A Poor Substitute For Destroyed Lives

The Iraqi "nation" has never had it easy. It was a paper nation created by Brittain in the 20's and 30's that never was intended to establish a "democracy"...and that the only "rulers" of that country were corrupt "kings" (western plants) or tyrants like Saddam Hussein. The people of Iraq suffered for decades with authoritarian rule that was only glossed over by oil money that would trickle down...and when that money dried up in the 80's, the country has been a mess ever since.

The other day someone posted a report of a Sunni Iraqi who hated the American occupation but feared what would happen if they left. How he hated having his country occupied, but feared more what would happen afterwards and that's the major reason he tolerates the occuptation. No amount of money can bring a real peace or restitution for what these people have had to endure or what messes they'll have to face.

This is a failed state that will join Lebanon and Somalia and others that is divided beyond any real reconciliation...and where only a "strongman" will be able to "unite" the country...and then on the backs of one minority or another. While I wasn't too crazy about Biden's "soft partition" concept, that may be the best sitatuation.

The real crimes can't be fixed with money...only justice in the World Court. Sadly, there's little else we can do to make this situation better than to get our troops and mercenaries out of that country and hope an uneasy truce is established.

[Jacobin]

9. Not to mention that we started this thing for no good reason

4 million Iraqis displaced. Hundreds of thousands dead.

My heart goes out to them. The sooner we leave, the quicker they can figure out their OWN new government and get back to being a country

[cali]

12. That won't happen.

We destroyed Iraq. It's that simple. I uge you to read the transcript of Nir Rosen's interview on Democracy Now. From the transcript:

NIR ROSEN: Iraq has been changed irrevocably, I think. I don’t think Iraq even -- you can say it exists anymore. There has been a very effective, systematic ethnic cleansing of Sunnis from Baghdad, of Shias --from areas that are now mostly Shia. But the Sunnis especially have been a target, as have mixed families like the one we just saw. With a name like Omar, he’s distinctly Sunni -- it’s a very Sunni name. You can be executed for having the name Omar alone. And Baghdad is now firmly in the hands of sectarian Shiite militias, and they’re never going to let it go.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think of Senator Levin calling for the Maliki and the whole government to disband?

NIR ROSEN: Well, it’s stupid for several reasons. First of all, the Iraqi government doesn’t matter. It has no power. And it doesn’t matter who you put in there. He’s not going to have any power. Baghdad doesn’t really matter, except for Baghdad. Baghdad used to be the most important city in Iraq, and whoever controlled Baghdad controlled Iraq. These days, you have a collection of city states: Mosul, Basra, Baghdad, Kirkuk, Irbil, Sulaymaniyah. Each one is virtually independent, and they have their own warlords and their own militias. And what happens in Baghdad makes no difference. So that’s the first point.

<snip

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/08/21/1349252

[Jacobin]

18. As long as we stay, it won't happen

My view is at some point, an ayatollah or military dictator will patch things up in some form or fashion. It may end up as more than one country. But, clearly, at some point, those tribal rivals fighting for power....one will gain momentum and overcome the others. I'm not saying its going to be pretty, but its the way of the world and at some point, some group will gain enough loyalty among the people to tamp down dissent and govern. That will NEVER happen while we are there, because we are viewed as infidels and no significant portion of the population will ever support our puppet

[cali]

26. All I can say is:

read Nir Rosen. Yes, of course we should get out now, but we shouldn't entertain ideas that Iraq is anyting but what it is: Destroyed.

[bigtree]

14. The Iraqi deaths are absolutely important

But I think you'll agree that Iraqis killed won't factor into our debate any more than the 100s of thousands killed have so far. They should, but they won't.

I do think that the numbers of Americans killed and maimed has become close to many homes and has had a effect in moving public opinion away from the occupation. That's why I think (among other reasons) it's so important to keep those sacrificed for republican politics at the front of our debate.

[cali]

16. Sadly, I'm sure you're right. n/t

[PCIntern]

15. My father of blessed memory used to say

that all the average man wants in a society (note the use of the word 'average' - he wasn't' talking about the intellectual, or the progressive) is to be able to go to sleep and awaken in the same society he was in 8 hours before.

The Iraqis can no longer do that and things are, incredibly, worse for them now. Those in charge here either never read a history book or they just plain didn't care how many have to suffer and die. My vote is with the latter.

[cali]

17. It's gotta be the latter, but

if it comes down to picking one thing that led us here, I'd have to go for hubris.

[malaise]

19. They don't care

Bushco does not value human life.

[madokie]

22. if they did Katrina would have played out much differently

so sad to be governed by such despicable and criminal bastards who think of only lining their own pockets

[madokie]

21. we have to remove our military for the sake of the Iraqi people.

they will not have anything to do with anything with USA on it for years to come and I wouldn't blame them. Something tells me that under new leadership here in America there will be a large influx of Iraqi immigrate to America as many Vietnamese did after our removal from their country which we destroyed much like we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan today. Our Soldiers are doing their jobs as they should its just a misguided job, its our leadership in the white house who are to blame for this atrocity.
Bring our Troops home now and quit killing the Iraqi people is all I want in my waning years.

[The2ndWheel]

27. If Iraq has to exist, they must have a war to figure out who runs it

They never had that war. They were carved up by the British(after the Ottoman empire dissolved), then kept together by various Western interests, until one day a few people from the West figured they wanted to change that.

How many wars did it take for America to be the country it is today? At least 3(against the people already here, against the British(again with the British!), and against ourselves), and probably a few more can be added. Any country that has ever existed had to have wars to see which way it would function. There is no other way to form a state. Too many cooks in the kitchen without a war. You have a war or two, and whoever wins gets to do things the way they want.

[cali]

28. It's too late for that n/t

[GeorgeGist]

29. Tragically ironic that as bad ...

a dictator he was, Saddam managed to hold Iraq together for 29 yrs. The only consequential external threat he ever imposed was on Iran.

If Presidents could be sued for malpractice, the survivors would own US.