Do you think it is insensitive or racist to force young black men to salute...

[IndianaJones]

a statue of Stonewall Jackson? It was a "tradition" for new students to do so at the college I attended, and it always rubbed be the wrong way. How far should things like this go in the name of tradition?

[TheUniverse]

1. If that's a tradition there look for a new school.

Yes, this is pretty bad. I'm not black, but I wouldn't want to salute him.

[wuushew]

2. Context?

If you go to a private military academy you only have yourself to blame.

[IndianaJones]

3. Public military school...first year cadets salute a statue of..

Stonewall every time they leave barracks. Or did when I attended.

[TheUniverse]

5. Military school.

Yeah that makes this even worse. Mixing militarism and racism can't lead to anything good. Is this for minors? What age group? I hope some brave kids refuse to salute.

[IndianaJones]

6. College. No one refuses to salute....consequences were less than desirable. nt.

[TheUniverse]

10. Its a public school.

Isn't it great to know our government is funding the NeoConfederacy movement?

[IndianaJones]

14. Funny thing...when I was going, Clarence Thomas' son was attending as well. nt.

[TheDebbieDee]

39. Clarence Thomas was able to procreate?

And he was able to find a woman with low enough standards to procreate with?

INCREDIBLE!

[IndianaJones]

40. His son looked exacly like him. It was scary. nt.

[mitchum]

86. Well, he did call Mistuh Tony and ask for permission before doing so

[Jed Dilligan]

17. Wow. Why not throw Tojo and Rommel into the mix? nt

[IndianaJones]

19. They aren't southern heroes I guess. nt.

[11 Bravo]

41. VMI?

(I have a couple of friends who survived the Rat Line, and they tell me that old Stonewall is still revered in Lexington.)

[IndianaJones]

42. Yes. And he will always be revered there. It is the town of my birth...

the hospital? Stonewall Jackson Memorial. Its really kind of creepy.

[11 Bravo]

43. My wife went to Sweetbriar, but did a year as an exchange student at W&L

way back when. She turned me on to Lexington. It really is a beautiful little town.

[IndianaJones]

44. I remember mixers at Sweetbriar. My dads entire family is...

from Rockbridge County. Most still live there. My mom lives in Buena Vista.

[11 Bravo]

49. The first time I saw Buena Vista I thought, "What the Hell ...

is a town called Buena (I pronounced it Bwayna) Vista doing in western Virginia?" My wife had to explain to me that it's pronounced "Byoona" Vista.

[IndianaJones]

53. Yeah, thats how everyone pronounces it. My friends still don't say it right.

Everyone at VMI just called it BV.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. Pretty much.

[FiveGoodMen]

7. Nothing should ever be done in the name of tradition

Seriously, if something continues to look like a good idea, then you keep doing it because it's a good idea.

'Tradition' is all about repeating past mistakes. You never need to bring up the word tradition except when you can't think of a good reason to do something.

[Sequoia]

8. I don't think any person should salute that creep.

Trail of Tears ring a bell? No statue should be saluted

[IndianaJones]

11. I was thinking the more obvious fighting on the side that supported slavery...

I didn't even know he was involved in that.

[Jed Dilligan]

18. He's confused with Andrew Jackson

another guy I'm none too fond of.

[AngryAmish]

28. Well, Andrew jackson gave birth to our party

Metaphorically at least. The pro-democracy forces that supported Old Hickory became the Democratic party.

[bunkerbuster1]

46. The early Democrats were pretty scummy

By the time of the American Civil War they were ultra/hyper-scummy.

(ancient history of course.)

[Virginia Dare]

55. It's hard to judge people from the 19th century..

using 21st century values and morals, they'd probably think we're pretty scummy too. For that matter, a couple of hundred years from now (if we make it that far) folks will probably be talking about how scummy we were. Andrew Jackson was an appalling racist though.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

59. It's quite easy, actually.

Sure, people from the 19th century would probably call us miscegenists, or nigger-lovers, or something.

Fair enough. That just makes it easier.

[bunkerbuster1]

75. Ever see some of the campaign materials Dems used against Lincoln?

I'm pretty sure that was considered "scummy" back in the day, too.

[Jed Dilligan]

82. And Lincoln founded the GOP. Point?

[Sequoia]

79. You're right.

Andrew Jackson was the Trail of Tears. Dang, and I thought I knew my history.

[hfojvt]

27. neither did I, although he might have been

It seems to be a confusion with Andrew Jackson.

Ironically to your OP though, I found this (although I am not gonna vouch for its accuracy or appropriateness)

A book titled "Stonewall Jackson - The Black Man's Friend"

http://homeschoolbuzz.com/reviews.html?content=Stonewall-Jackson--The-Black-Man-s-Friend

[bunkerbuster1]

48. Yep, because colored folk just LOVED them Confederates!

What a stinking crock. looks like it's published by some wacko Dominionist homeskooler group.

[hfojvt]

9. that depends entirely

upon which finger they salute him with.


Actually, as a kid, I was quite fond of Stonewall Jackson. One of those kid things, since I was born in the south and it was easy enough to find civil war stories that painted him as a gentleman and a very capable General. Standing like a stonewall is kind of a 'we shall not be moved' bravery.

[blondeatlast]

12. Yes. nt

[slackmaster]

13. In what way are students forced to salute?

What is the penalty for refusing to do so?

[IndianaJones]

15. It is the first year cadets initiation...

there are similar things done at the military academies. If you have seen the movie The Lords of Discipline with Patrick Swayze, you kinda get the idea.

[slackmaster]

20. That totally sucks regardless of the skin color of the cadet

Ack!

[AndyTiedye]

16. Will a 1-finger Salute Do?

[JVS]

21. I think it's insensitive and racist to even have a statue of that fucking traitor

[porphyrian]

22. What, would they expel you if you didn't salute? How did they make them salute? - n/t

[IndianaJones]

23. They would not expel you for the incident. But your life would truly suck...

to the point that you would comply or simply quit.

[TheUniverse]

25. Yes Military Schools are not the places for people with progressive values.

The only value they want is obedience.

[IndianaJones]

26. Exactly. Break down the individual and build them up as they see fit. nt.

[AX10]

63. Sadly true.

[porphyrian]

31. I don't think that could happen for long today.

Some video and a call or two to the NAACP and/or the ACLU would take care of that pretty quickly.

But to answer your question, it would at least be insensitive to force it, and probably racist.

[IndianaJones]

33. To the best of my knowledge, it still goes on today....

the only difference being the addition of women. I have not been back in some years, but it was still going on.

[porphyrian]

35. I guess no one has seriously complained about it yet.

Most universities bend over backwards to avoid the appearance of having racist policy, regardless of the reality.

Edit: left off the "ly"

[cgrindley]

24. I think it's kind of dumb to go to a military college

basically saluting Stonewall Jackson is no more idiotic than saluting William Sherman. If a person goes to a military college, they basically know that they're willingly adopting a massive tradition of asinine bullshit dating back to the animated Spartans and their killer abs.

[IndianaJones]

29. I went to a military college and I can't really argue much, except in the case..

of this school there are other factors involved.

[cgrindley]

32. Don't get me wrong, some military colleges provide first rate education

but they've all got a whole host of "traditions" to go along with that great education. It's most certainly a tradeoff.

[IndianaJones]

36. as of 2007, #1 public liberal arts college in the nation for the 6th straight year. nt.

[AX10]

64. Bullshit is the nicer term, at least nicer than I would have used.

[WinkyDink]

30. It's for sure STUPID.

[Xithras]

34. Not at all.

Jackson, like most Confederates, was simply a soldier following the orders handed down by his leadership. He didn't commit any atrocities, and simply had the bad luck to be living on the wrong side of the border when the war started. He was part of the Virginian Army, and as such served his land. Today, he's recognized as one of the smartest tactical commanders in American history, even though he technically fought against it.

I tend to reserve my dislike for the political Confederates who drove the split, and the large plantation owners who owned the slaves.

FWIW, prior to his military days, Jackson was a schoolteacher who taught slaves to read at the risk of his own personal arrest. He did own slaves (he bought only two, and that was at the request of the slaves themselves, but several more were gifted to him) and was not anti-slavery, but he was an advocate of treating them well, educating them, and allowing them to purchase their own freedom. He also believed that freed blacks should be treated equally to white men. By the standards of that era, that made him a raving liberal.

I believe that the worthiness of each Confederate should be judged individually. I would never advocate saluting a statue of Jefferson Davis, for example, because he was the leader of the seccession. Many of the people further down in the ranks of the Confederacy, especially in the military, really don't deserve the criticism heaped on them today. Most were simply soldiers following orders that would be legal even today.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. LOL

[XOKCowboy]

67. Finally some facts in this discussion. THANK YOU

Boy there's a lot of hate in this thread towards a guy that wasn't racist and just had the audacity for fight for the wrong side. I'd advise people to check out his Wikipedia bio.

I despise the Union generals Sherman and Sheridan much more. Now those were some murderous bastards.

[aquart]

37. Depends on what you salute him with, honey.

[ladjf]

45. No one should ever be forced to salute anyone or anything

that they don't respect.

[IndianaJones]

47. I'm pretty sure that happens in the military all the time. nt.

[ladjf]

50. Of course it does. But my statement was that it should never be

that way. A salute is a show of respect. If one is forced to do it, it has become an act of subservience.

[IndianaJones]

52. In the military you salute the rank, not the individual (I have heard).

in this case, I don't know.

[Virginia Dare]

51. Yes, I would say it probably is..

but what is the context, did they ever say why you were saluting a dead guy?

[IndianaJones]

54. Because they love dead confederate generals in Virginia. nt.

[Virginia Dare]

57. Don't I know it..

have you ever been to the shrine for Stonewall's arm? Bizarre place.

[IndianaJones]

58. I was born in Lexington....I've seen it all. nt.

[Virginia Dare]

60. Stonewall is in Lexington...

but his arm is in Fredericksburg..under it's own separate gravestone and shrine. How strange is that? Only in Virginia. Of course nobody in a million years ever envisioned black students at VMI, so I guess they haven't adjusted their traditions accordingly yet. Are they humiliating the women in a similar fashion?

[IndianaJones]

71. Not sure. A group of alumni are trying to get support up...

for an all male private college.

[Virginia Dare]

74. I heard about that...

they certainly didn't accept them willingly, to say the least. I doubt they are welcoming them with open arms.

[IndianaJones]

76. I was there when the whole thing started. I remember being on...

the CBS evening news eating supper on the front 2 inches of my seat.

[Aristus]

56. It's more than racist; it's treasonous.

Jackson bore arms against the United States. That's treason.

[XOKCowboy]

61. Stonewall Jackson was a great military strategist and not a racist

Here is his Wikipedia bio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_Jackson#Early_childhood

Jackson was seven years old when his mother died. He and his sister Laura Ann were sent to live with their paternal uncle, Cummins Jackson, who owned a grist mill in Jackson's Mill (near present-day Weston in Lewis County in central West Virginia). Cummins Jackson was strict with Thomas, who looked up to Cummins as a schoolteacher. His older brother, Warren, went to live with other relatives on his mother's side of the family, but he later died of tuberculosis in 1841 at the age of 20.

Jackson helped around his uncle's farm, tending sheep with the assistance of a sheepdog, driving teams of oxen and helping harvest wheat and corn. Formal education was not easily obtained, but he attended school when and where he could. Much of Jackson's education was self-taught. He once made a deal with one of his uncle's slaves to provide him with pine knots in exchange for reading lessons; Thomas would stay up at night reading borrowed books by the light of those burning pine knots. Virginia law forbade teaching a slave, free black or mulatto to read or write, as enacted following Nat Turner's Slave Rebellion in Southampton County in 1831. Nevertheless, Jackson secretly taught the slave to read, as he had promised. Once literate, the young slave fled to Canada via the underground railroad. In his later years at Jackson's Mill, Thomas was a schoolteacher.

He grew up to go to West Point and Military historians consider Jackson to be one of the most gifted tactical commanders in United States history.

Now in light of that and the fact that it's a military school in the south, I really don't think it's a racist gesture. More of a respectful gesture to a military hero. He just fought for the wrong side.

[FiveGoodMen]

62. He JUST fought for the wrong side?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. Yes, Jackson wasn't a racist. He was very nice to the people he enslaved.

:spray:

[AX10]

66. Jackson was a slave owning bastard.

He will always be a putz!

[LanternWaste]

70. Like Washington and Jefferson, too?

Like Washington and Jefferson, too?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. Yes.

:shrug:

[damntexdem]

68. Its both insensitive and racist to induce ANYONE to salute the statue.

Here's how far things should go in the name of tradition: a movement demanding that the statue be removed from the campus.

[ThePowerofWill]

69. Depends.

I can see the possible hardship someone black may see in saluting Stonewall. However maybe they are saluting his military genius which was undeniable, instead of his personal beliefs.

I personally admire Jackson for his strategic abilities. His personal beliefs were nothing to admire however.

[Virginia Dare]

72. Jackson was a bit of a whack-job..

most of his contemporaries thought so anyway. He was however a brilliant general and military tactician, that is a fact.

Welcome to DU!!

[Javaman]

77. VMI? nt

[IndianaJones]

78. Yes. nt.

[Javaman]

80. Had a few friends go there.

told me about all the ghosts that inhabit that place.

some freaky stuff.

[IndianaJones]

81. There is some history there. nt.

[BlooInBloo]

83. Of course it is.

[IndianaJones]

85. And people get defensive about the south. Go figure. nt.

[BlooInBloo]

87. It's the American psyche. If something's wrong, If something's wrong, don't admit it....

... rather, point the finger somewhere else at something else that's wrong.

[IndianaJones]

88. like the KKK in Indiana? ha. nt.

[BlooInBloo]

90. Precisely.

[mitchum]

84. Why don't they just shoot the statue of Jackson like Jackson's men did to him?

If any racist crazed religious fanatic ever needed fragging...

[Ilsa]

89. Personally, I don't feel all that great about paying homage to objects.

I'm not real big on iconography except to admire artistry.

[HardRocker05]

91. absolutely; i wouldn't salute him, and i'm a white woman. nt