Question #2:

[H2O Man]

"....The vice president is preparing tol fly to Grand Rapids this morning, to make a war speech at the Gerald R. Ford Museum, and then on to MacDill Air Force Base in Tampa, home to the U.S. Central Command and Special Operations Command, to address the military there.

"Cheney, who has asserted that he is not really part of the executive branch of government for purposes of reporting on how much material his office classifies and declassifies each year, is very much part of the president's war-team. In fact, he is the sole significant survivor of an administration that has lost most of the key players that it started with in 2001.

"But this is a relatively rare, official, outing for the vice president."

Cheney, and Bush, hit the road for war strategy
by Mark Silva
Baltimore Sun; September 14, 2007



Question #2: Why is VP Dick Cheney being brought out now, and who is his target audience?

[babylonsister]

1. Great question! I think the wh is plum out of personality to send around

to appease the masses. If Cheney is the best they can do, they're in trouble. As for the target audience, not a clue as his popularity isn't exactly legendary. What's that football thingie called, a hail mary pass?

[H2O Man]

2. There tend to be

three general groups: (a) those who agree with you; (b) those who disagree with you; and (c) the "undecided." There are times when you try to communicate specific messages to each of those three groups, and times when you attempt to reach two of the groups with one message.

More rarely, one tries to speak to all three groups at once. The problem with that, in the context of the war of occupation in Iraq, is most easily illustrated by Bush saying his plan offers an avenue for Americans to become united. It is likely that he was attempted to convince Group C that he was sincere in his efforts to be a leader.

Cheney's numbers are rather stark: Group A is small; Group B is large; and Group C is made up almost entirely of conservative republicans who once liked him, but have found the post-2001 Dick Cheney to be a rigid, angry fellow.

I assume his message is directed exclusively at the Group A hardliners.

[nashville_brook]

42. if group A, then he's rolling out a new product -- he's using the moment

to promote something that he expects will spark their imagination. he's telling them something they want to hear. he's giving them hope. he's saying "this will be our finest hour."

[nashville_brook]

46. if group A + group C, then the message is that dissent will not be tolerated

[malaise]

3. I have a question too

Why is he flying if the air force is standing down today?

[bahrbearian]

10. He doesn't have ot worry about Fratricide.

[TwilightGardener]

13. The entire Air Force isn't standing down--one command (ACC) is.

I'm pretty sure AF2 can get where it's going.

[spanone]

4. cheney is coming out to gloat. they gamed the democrats again and he wants to rub it in.

imho

my local paper this morning - bu$h* withdrawing troops due to success in iraq.

in true chenee fashion he will push hard for the neverending occupation and presence in the

middle east.

[H2O Man]

17. So his public

presentations are to confirm for the international investors in violence and death that the war of occupation will continue, despite the calls for it to end.

[spanone]

20. well put. the pnac dream lives on.

[H2O Man]

21. I'm curious if you

(or other DUers) see any possible connection between the president and vice president attempting to re-establish their "authority" within the party, and any of the recent events involving (a) White House resignations, and (b) some curious back-stage tensions within the republican primaries?

[nashville_brook]

45. what are the "curious back-stage tensions?" who/what

i haven't been following the repub primaries very closely...

although, i noticed that Huckabee last night sounded quite off-key in his ham-handed attempt to support the nonsense in bush's address.

[cali]

5. to pump up the 30% who sitll support the war and are

feeling demoralized. That's the only thing I can think of.

[H2O Man]

18. I agree

that his stepping out from behind the curtain is to send a message to that specific group.

[zippy890]

6. one wonders about the audience that will be assembled

at the Ford museum for cheney's speech. how to get an auditorium of people to voluntarily go and not only hear him speak but also clap and be receptive.

an assembling of members from your group 1) of hardliners - neocon holdouts - they must have to fly them in to get enough people.

[H2O Man]

22. Right.

In fact, I'd think that it might be worth noting that Bush's saying that he is going to hand this war off to the next president is also directed at the people deciding who will be the next republican nominee. It isn't that Bush is simply leaving the mess for the next person to clean up. Rather, Bush is fronting for a group that isn't interested (or willing) to give up the investment in Iraq. The in-fighting, largely behind the scenes, within the camps of the republican candidates, is closely related.

[Blackhatjack]

7. Once Again H2OMan Has Discerned What Is Important .....

It is Cheney who is making the foreign policy decisions in the face of contradictory facts, not Bush.

It is Cheney who ignores the national disapproval ratings and pursues his own foreign policy which will benefit himself and his NeoCon friends.

It is Cheney who is the most dangerous man in Washington, and we would be wise to watch him carefully when he emerges from his secluded bunker. It almost always means that another unpopular decision has been made and is headed down the pike for the American public to absorb.

I believe last night's speech will quickly be forgotten as totally irrelevant to events about to unfold. Soon we will be engaged in an armed attack on Iran and it will suck the oxygen out of any debate over deploying our troops out of Iraq.

[H2O Man]

23. Exactly.

Cheney, far more than Bush, runs the show for those who are not willing to divest in the occupation in Iraq. Connect this with the recent behind-the-scenes shifts in the republican primary contest.

We are in for a very severe contest in 2008. It may be the single most important election in the last 100 years.

[Blackhatjack]

25. What concerns me about the upcoming 2008 election is....

The interested parties who wield power through Cheney and Bush via the Republican Party occupation of the Oval Office read the polls and know what the likely outcome will be at the 2008 election.

THere are no signs that any of the Republican Candidates currently running could come anywhere close to winning the General Election.

Does anyone think these interested parties are going to 'roll over' and watch their power handed over to the next Democratic President without a fight? I don't think so.

So in order to hold onto power they have 2 choices. Either use their money to 'buy' an acceptable and loyal Democrat to occupy the Oval Office who will protect them and their interests, OR change the environment in which the election is held(ie. start a new war with Iran or take advantage of a terrorist attack on the homeland) --to emphasize national security concerns and claim Democrats will never keep us safe.

I don't see any other scenario that has as much credibility as this one.

[H2O Man]

28. Yes.

And at more than any election previous to 2000, we need to be fully aware of the implications of the choice for VP. The office of the vice president for the republican party has a very different meaning than it was intended under the Constitution.

[Blackhatjack]

44. IMHO Edwards gets it... "we have to take them on and beat them, they will never negotiate..." n/t

[hootinholler]

41. "use their money to 'buy' an acceptable and loyal Democrat"

Personally, I think she's well on her way.

-Hoot

[H2O Man]

62. There is another

interesting thread on DU:GD, with a discussion on the idea that a stronger democratic congress along with a democratic president will be able to end the war. The OP indicated, as I understood it, that the current congress cannot stop the president.

I mentioned the fact that there is a significant difference between "can't" and "won't." The current congress has some options they could try, but they won't. It may be they would be successful if they tried, and it may be they would not. However, I think the only "failure" is when one refuses to try.

It also seems to me that it is not even a matter of simply electing more democrats. It has to be the right person for president, and the right people for congress. I think that there are democrats who, as president, would end the US war of occupation in Iraq. But that doesn't mean that they all would. And the same applies to congress: there are people who would work to end the war, and there are those who would merely pretend to.

[Virginia Dare]

38. It's going to be like a shell game..

trying to figure out who exactly it is that the money men want in power.

[H2O Man]

63. If you watch

who Newt Gingrich hangs out with, and speaks well of, then you'll have a good idea who he thinks is going to pick him for VP. He wants the power associated with the OVP.

[Horse with no Name]

8. Air Force is standing down today and Cheney is ending up at Centcom.

:scared:

[chimpymustgo]

9. Oh shit!

:scared: :scared:

[Horse with no Name]

11. Yep.

:(

[NightWatcher]

12. what happened the last time that dick ordered a standdown?

oh yes, NORAD refused to stop the airplanes on 9/11.

I'm so sure that we are just being paranoid. :sarcasm:

[mod mom]

14. Could it be that Admiral Fallon is head of US Central Centcom and is an outspoken

opponent of the * plan? He is coming out with his own assessment (which likely won't be favorable to the administrations's handling of the war) and will be speaking to congress at Sen Webb's invitation. Somehow this is related would be my guess.

[H2O Man]

26. I think that

there are people in communities across the country that see first-hand, from what is happening to the young people that have seen service in Iraq, that the reality of that war is very different from what Bush and Cheney have said. And I think that as more retired military leaders speak out, and that there are rumors of strong dissent within the Pentagon, that it has caused some of the folks who have financial investments in the death and destruction in Iraq to question how secure the future is. I think Cheney is stepping out to say that they are not going to loosen their grip.

[EFerrari]

27. So, one way for Deadeye Dick to reassure his investors is to

show them he can whip a few general officers into shape, maybe?

[H2O Man]

32. Yes.

I think that those military leaders who have dared to question the administration have found themselves marginalized. It might not have been exactly what happened with the Wilson situation, but it is similar.

On another thread, I mentioned Ed Hall, the anthropologist (Postcard from Chestnut Lodge). Hall studied a number of interesting things, including leadership and morale in the military. He had noted how the Chinese and North Koreans had mistakenly applied their concepts on American POWs. It is one of the very few areas where I would (slightly) disagree with him.

Hall felt the error was in removing situational leadership, because it led to such high rates of mental collapse among the POWs. In fact, that was the goal. There was the "1 in 20" rule, where without any real regard to organizational level, one separates groups into 20. As a rule, 1 person takes on the role of a situational leader. SEparate, damage, or kill that 1, and the other 19 become docile. They will complain, but not dare to do anything beyond that.

What Hall felt was an unintended "leadership vacuum" was intentional. The same general manipulation of groups takes place today -- in more ways than people are aware of.

[Virginia Dare]

36. Time for Dick to go break some kneecaps...n/t

[mod mom]

40. NSA Spying.

Let's hope Admiral Fallon doesn't have any skeletons in his closet (or does any one very close to him). In case he does-he would show true leadership to stick to his convictions despite what might be used against him.

Perhaps we need some kind of national amnesty in order to rid this nation of the cancerous growth which is destroying it. A coming "clean" program.

[Virginia Dare]

49. Perhaps I'm a bit paranoid..

but it still strikes me as extremely odd and troubling that a Republican Congressman was recently found dead in his apartment, the victim of an apparent fall down the stairs. Then when I read this, the inner tinfoil in me just won't go away.

http://www.gillmorblog.com/?p=204

[mod mom]

55. I didn't realize he had spoken out against Abu Gonzales.

then there's Larry Craig who came out against the Patriot Act ( and * called for his replacement); and Pat Tillman, and the 2 soldiers who signed the NYT op ed piece. Even Bob Ney had come out against Iran and had delivered backdoor correspondence from them.

I hate to think in tinfoil terms but if you wanted to keep others in line...fear is definitely an effective way.

[flashl]

15. Places most receptive are connected to defense spending

End the war and their economies goes poof!

[H2O Man]

33. Yes.

The financial implications are very real.

[Me.]

16. I've Been Wondering Where He's Been

Very low profile lately. As to who, I think it's the money people, who may be faltering. It's not turning out the way they thought according to recent reports.

[Buttercup McToots]

19. Bump...up

Tell me more...

[Me.]

47. Have Looked For The Articles

But can't find, may be I'm using the wrong keywords. Was either DU or HuffPo last week. They thought they were going to clean up in Iraq, first in, easy money. However things are not working out as anticipated due to lack of violence and chaos.

[H2O Man]

34. Okay:

Question 2.5: Connect this with the behind-the-scenes conflicts in the republican primary show.

[Me.]

52. That's Tricky

As they're all taking a war stance. Of course the most hawkish of them all, McCain, is doing badly, though many believe he will still come back, and maybe the money is with him as they believe he isn't as crazy as * (though they would be wrong)and would have the ability to organize. The neos are behind Freddie but he's coming up short. He'd be another puppet but there seems to be trouble making him into something he isn't, which is an authentic strong leader. Mitt would obey but he , for a number of reasons, doesn't have staying power. As for the NY Ghoul, he's a loose cannon and won't be able to be controlled as he'll be running his own game.

Back a bit, I thought Huckabee might be the dark horse and I still wonder about him, the flip side of the Bill Clinton coin.

[H2O Man]

69. One of my

conservative friends tells me that a lot of republicans really like Huckabee, but they are convinced that America would not elect anyone with a last name such as his. He said there is some frustration that goes with the recognition their party is that rigid in their thinking. I assure him that democrats also find republican rigidity to be a source of frustration.

[Virginia Dare]

73. Huckabee is about the only potential repub president..

that won't send me screaming for Canada.

[Vinca]

24. To remind us if Bush is impeached, we get him. nt

[H2O Man]

37. It is rather difficult

to find someone even more unpopular than George W. Bush; the VP fits the need in that sense.

[eleny]

29. As the article pointed out - he's about the last one left

And speaking to the last ones left out there in the heartland.

He's got to make the case since it was his policy originally. It's in tatters but he has to try to salvage what's left.

[H2O Man]

39. I'm surprised that

the administration has been attempting to coer all bases by even using some of the liberal/progressive lefts' warnings about why we should not have invaded Iraq. Cheney kind of rounds that out, by repeating the lies from 2002-03.

[eleny]

43. And now, it's to prime the public for an attack on Iran

Makes me wonder if we assassinated the Sheik so we could blame it on the Iranians.

[snappyturtle]

51. They're working on it, imho. nt

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

30. Keep an ear out for how many times he mentions Iran. eom

[Uncle Joe]

31. I believe it might be related to this Krugman column which Burtworm has a thread on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1807774

[smoogatz]

35. Bring out the gimp!

I happen to have stumbled across an advance copy of Cheney's speech. Here's the first parapraph:

"9/11, al Qaeda Iraq. Iran 9/11, nuclear weapons, al Qaeda Iraq. 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11. Terrorists, nuclear weapons, Iran, 9//11. Iraq, al Qaeda, follow us home. Democrat congress, al Qaeda, 9/11. Iran 9/11 al Qaeda . 9/11, 9/11, terrorists, terrorists, 9/11, Iran, al Qaeda."

Actually, I'm surprised he's not going to Barksdale. But I suppose the subtext is clear enough.

[snappyturtle]

48. Could it be that Cheney is out because morale and support are

waning? He's holding pep rallies for the rank and file and the military....maybe mixing it up a bit with some Iran sabre rattling.

I think an interesting question is: Has Cheney ever been brought out for any truly good purpose?

[blondeatlast]

58. "Has Cheney ever been brought out for any truly good purpose?"

That is the winning question, friends.

The answer is: apparently never.

[snappyturtle]

59. I couldn't think of any good reason he's turned loose! Which is why

we must pay special attention when he is out!

[blondeatlast]

60. He goes from virtual non-existence to media prominence within 24 hours.

A very curious phenomenon.

[snappyturtle]

61. As in hurricane Humberto? nt

[H2O Man]

71. Good question.

I would say that no, he has not.

[BurtWorm]

50. Notice that they never ever talk to anyone but the base.

They've always operated this way. The rest of us don't matter--and never have mattered--one whit to these assholes.

[DemReadingDU]

53. Cheney has to reassure the base

Everything is going to be just fine :)

[smoogatz]

56. He'd get heckled. And booed.

They'd hold up insulting signs! They'd moon him! It'd be chaos (and wonderful. And hilarious). No no--mustn't expose the VP (now less popular than gonorrhea!) to dissent. Fly him out to wing-nut central or stand him up in front of a captive audience at an airbase, but for Christ's sake, don't EVER wheel him out in front of, you know, the MASSES.

[Virginia Dare]

66. Like the guy who told him to go fuck himself in Mississippi...

while he was doing a presser, that was a classic..:rofl:

[smoogatz]

67. The masses are unruly.

Something's got to be done about that.

[mmonk]

54. The elected of the democratic party and those running for president.

[bobthedrummer]

57. Yep, it's going to be an interesting weekend. k&r

IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST

[LSK]

64. because its Patreaus report time maybe?

[Buttercup McToots]

65. up ye go...

this could get interesting...

[catmandu57]

68. Could be just damn blind stupidity and denial

These people aren't smart, they have a reptilian inteligence that keeps them alive, but they aren't smart. The same could be said for anyone who would still listen to anything that comes from their mouths.
Next tuesday I believe they're bring darth in to KC to rause money for our local brain dead congressman sammy graves, whose brother they stuck a shiv into. How much money they're expecting to raise for this asskisser is a mystery to me.

[H2O Man]

70. Valid point.

They are not particularly bright. They have power, but not because they are smart.

[Virginia Dare]

72. No, they're ruthless and amoral...

kind of like the prototypical mafia figures. They'll do anything, as long as the end result is making more money and amassing more power.