I know this may seem extreme but...

[artfan]

if this administration attacks Iran (as I think they will) I may vote for a Republican for president in 08. My reasoning is that they should take the fall/clean up their own mess. If the democrats win they will be blames for 'quitting' and betraying the troops and will end up taking the fall for the piss poor economy that is also sure to come.

No matter who wins they will have a mess on their hands. Taxes will have to go up, services will drop,returning troops will need care and many will have difficulty reacclimating to civilian life. The list goes on and on. The next president will have to clean up bush's sh*t and I dont want the democratic party blamed for republican stupidity.

Please discuss I would love to hear other views.

[mmonk]

1. If we attack Iran, I will no longer stay.

I've had enough already. I will not follow anyone into hell.

[artfan]

3. I have too but

if a democratic president wins he/she will have to make many unpopular decisions that may have negative consequences for another generation much like the dems are still taking it on the chin for Vietnam.

[Ravy]

9. You are assuming that a Republican will make those same hard decisions.

Any of them talking like they will in the primary debates????

[artfan]

31. They will have to do something

the debates are meaningless when it come to this issue. We will pull out of Iraq. There is no stability in sight and there is no way of paying for this war. It is simply not sustainable. If staying or winning were options the Republican canidates would be shouting their plans to the moon. They are ignoring the issue because if they say the words pull out their base will go crazy.

[uppityperson]

36. They are talking about staying and winning. Haven't you heard?

[artfan]

49. still no plan

all talk

[uppityperson]

68. wtf are you going on about? Stay and win is their plan.

Sorry if you don't like the fact I'm not making a plan for how they can do this as I don't think they can "win", esp since they keep changing what "win" means. Perhaps they don't want to publicize more taxes, and a draft of the poor and non-powerful. COATH. Why are you on DU?

[Baby Snooks]

21. And where will you go?

More and more countries are making it harder and harder for Americans to emigrate. Says quite a bit about the real impact of all of this on the American people. No one wants us. It is as if we have the plague. In a way, we do. The way the German people did. Rising up after millions of people are murdered and saying "We do not accept this" somehow doesn't matter. One of the lessons of Nuremberg we didn't learn. We are forever tainted as the German people are. But we are far more tainted. We should have remembered and stopped it. Instead, too many of us waved the flags.

[artfan]

23. so far this is the best reason for voting for a democrat I have read

it could be a way to signal to the world we are not as dumb as they think.

[daninthemoon]

30. I wonder if Canada will start building a wall. Wouldn't blame them.

[mmonk]

66. I do not know.

But I will have to get out for my boys' sake (or get them out).

[Ravy]

2. That is like using heroin to kick a smoking habit. nt

[artfan]

4. I think we have passes heroin about 6 years back

do you see the people of this country not blaming the next pres for this mess?

[Ravy]

6. Only if they try to fix it.

A Republican president will just pass it on.

It is the same rationale that many people claimed in 2004. "Let's give Bush a chance to get out of it."

How's that working out for you?

[artfan]

10. the economy will demand it

the cost of the war is not sustainable and the unpopularity of the war means the next pres. can not ignore it. this administration is on a holding pattern so the next guy will be stuck with clean up. they are operating on a countdown clock. everything this administration is doing is delay tatics because there is no answer bush is thinking of his legacy and hoping if he holds out the next guy will be blamed.

[uppityperson]

69. Nope. It hasn't gotten bad enough here yet. Change may happen then, but it's not that bad yet.

They can do more harm to this nation and the world, easily. There is nothing that says the US Empire must stand forever, and NOwhere is it written that it will stand as it has. Things can get worse, easily. If you refuse to see this, I feel sorry for you.

[spoony]

17. That's great!

:D

[AlCzervik]

5. Republicans make a huge mess and they cannot clean up, i'd rather the democrats

clean up the mess and get no credit. that reasoning you gave---i heard that last time around "Oh Bush made the mess, he should clean it up" um no, sometimes removing the mess maker is the beginning of the clean up.

[artfan]

8. but this is way more than a mess

it is a lose lose situation I can not see a way out not a single canidate has a possible winning plan and if we do go into Iran it will be a disaster all around. I know it is hard to imagine it getting worse but I am sure it will be worse by 08. The people of the Middle East will never forgive us and it is not like we can say 'sorry but now that we have a new president lets be friends' what is the way out?

[AlCzervik]

13. first off i am not convinced at all about Iran but disregard that for a minute ok

leaving republicans in charge of the current wars are going to mean more troops coming home in the back of the plane so for me voting republican just to score some points later for the democrats is not worth it.

[artfan]

19. But you need to look beyond our troops

we can not just leave there has to be a plan in place or the bloodbath in iraq will continue and we will still bear the blame. withdrawl must come with a plan for stability also what will hapen to those few in the middle east who do support us. If we leave without some plan they will also become our enemies.

[AlCzervik]

25. no ok, it's a bad idea. You want another 4 to 8 years of this shit because whether

you understand or not thats what you're advocating. so yes i think the idea i extreme, extremely wrong and i will never buy into that reasoning.

[artfan]

29. no in fact that is not what i am saying

in my opinion the next president will have to pull out of Iraq. staying is not possible we can not afford it and staying will require a draft which will not fly with the people. but the consequences of pulling out are also bad and too many people think we can just go home and all will be OK that is folly.

[nuxvomica]

7. We'd be in bigger trouble without a Democrat on cleanup

I don't see any Republican candidates as having the skill to even start cleaning up the mess we're in now. I'm not worried about the Democrats getting all the blame for the Bush era, anyway. The whole mess has "W", the "decider", written in big letters all over it.

[artfan]

12. but what is the 'fix'

i dont see a solution certainly not for a long time to come

[nuxvomica]

24. Just the fact of a new presidency will help in foreign relations

I'm sure people all over the world are eagerly anticipating an end to this nightmare administration. Add to that a willingness by the new president to engage in diplomacy and there may be a way out.

[AlCzervik]

26. you ain't wrong.

:toast:

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. That is a good point

What's worrying about the next US election is that the Republicans seem desperate to put up someone just as right wing as Bush. They are trying to disassociate themselves from his exact policies, but in general they're still over on the far right or neocon side, in foreign policy terms. There's no 'moderate Republican' standing (Giuliani may be moderate on one or two social policies, but in international relations he's in the 'crazies' bracket). If any Republican got in, international relations would look a disaster. All of the Democrats look more reasonable, and would have credibility in making a new start in foreign relations - a lot of countries really do like working with the USA, if it's being reasonable.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

56. I don't have any idea how old you are..

But the whole "the left stabbed America in the back" meme built up very quickly after Vietnam.

With the Republican Mighty Wurlitzer and the MSM carrying on about "dirty fucking hippies" non stop for the next eight years, Dubya could well come out of this smelling like a rose.

Stranger things have happened.

[nuxvomica]

65. There will always be those memes

But they aren't the majority consensus. Even the assertion that the media lost the Vietnam War because they kept showing it doesn't hold water with most people. It was lost from the start. The demographic that currently supports the Iraq invasion will continue to search for a bogeyman to justify their irrational devotion to Bush and his policies. Oh, we'll still hear that stuff whether a Republican or a Democrat becomes president but it won't become the widely accepted, enduring perspective on Bush's war.

P.S. I'm in my early 50s. ;-)

[TahitiNut]

11. Under the "frog-boiling" theory ...

... we may be better off to plunge even more deeply into fascism quickly to wake people up to the catastrophe.

It's sure not working the other way. :shrug:

[artfan]

16. I dont see any of the R's running for presidency as part of the facism crowd

Romney is a playboy in it for the glory of the title
Thompson touts some facist ideas and scares me when it comes to abortion but his history is more one of individual rights not taking away rights
Rudy G will not win he is shallow as a canidate all he has on his side is 9/11 and too many people are pointing out the myths of his 'leadership' his personal history is a turn off for both women and arch conservatives


they are more pathetic than threatening more old school conservatives are calling out the neo-cons every day. I see housecleaning going on and am enjoying the show

[AndyTiedye]

54. People Are Awake Already. You Mistake Hopelessness for Apathy

[sandnsea]

14. People did that in 2004

Brilliant strategy.

[artfan]

18. no they did not

in 04 many people still had faith in the administration and the economy. look back many moderates were still 'on board' and believed in the war much has changed. Also any incomming administration will have to do something the current state is not sustainable

[sandnsea]

43. well yeah they did

Go find Katz, his mom was one of them. This was a popular line for people to give themselves permission to continue voting for their tax cuts.

[question everything]

50. Or simply stayed home in 1968

when the anti-war people were not happy with Humphrey.. they just stayed home

[hyphenate]

15. Considering the dicks

on the right who are running, there is absolutely NO WAY in HELL I would EVER vote for one of them. EVER. And I really don't give a fuck about who gets elected to clean up their mess--someone either has to clean it up in 2008 or 2012. Either way, I never EVER want to (in my lifetime) see another fucking Pub in the white house again. Period.

[calimary]

20. NOT AN OPTION! We're ONE vote away in the Supreme Court.

ONE VOTE. If a republi-CON is allowed to name one more crony or 13th-century mind to the Supreme Court, we're sunk. Especially women who would rather have the last word on what happens in the most intimate parts of their bodies, among other things.

[artfan]

22. that is one of my concerns but

do you see any of the conservatives leaving in the next few years? even if a republican win the WH they will not get the mandate needed to push a neocon throught to the supreme court no way do i see that happening.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

27. Oh This Should Win A DUzy For Sure!

:spray:

[artfan]

33. It should not

the question about what to do if/when we win is the elephant in the room. I am of the opinion that the next president will inherit a huge mess without a solution. Furthermore that they are dooming themselves to unpopularity. Hell Nader should be given the job because in many ways it is his baby as much as bush's

[artfan]

28. My kids are 18 15 13 and 6

I am truly afraid for them. Even though my oldest is still in high school she is called by recruiters all the time. The other kids are all boys and I see the possibliity of a draft for them. It ties my stomach in knots. They all oppose the war but in so many ways it is kids their age who will pay the price for the actions of this administration.

I know we have to get the hell out of the middle east but how?

[HughMoran]

32. Heh - that is the kind of logic that got the current moron re-selected

You have GOT to be kidding us ... or worse :(

[artfan]

34. No I am not kidding

I would love to vote democratic but do not want to see the party take the blame for this disaster

[HughMoran]

51. That's the most twisted thinking I have ever read

A Dem president could stop the killing, but you would rather worry about the blame-game?

That is just bizarre IMHO.

[uppityperson]

35. If the administration attacks Iran, you will let them keep control, give them what they want?

And this will help...how? Let them do what they want, continue making messes, this will help how? You assume that they will then take the fall/clean up their own mess, but why do you think they would have any intention of doing that? Why clean up the mess? Why not just continue the mess some more?

Yes, the dems will have to eventually clean up the repubs mess, but I don't see how giving them 4 MORE years to make a BIGGER mess would help.

By the way, if so much money wasn't going to fund the Iraq occupation, taxes would not hve to go up. But yes, there is a big mess a huge mess that will take a really really long time to clean up. It won't happen in 4 yrs. But starting now seems better than waiting for another 4 yrs of escalating mess.

[artfan]

39. but you are connecting the next administration with this one

which canidate do you see continuing this policy? As I have stated many times in this thread we HAVE to get out of the middle east no matter who wins the election. staying will require a draft and more money neither of which will happen.

sure if Jeb were running I could see a continuation of current policy but not with any other canidates.

In fact NO ONE dem or rep has proposed a plan for withdrawl

[AndyTiedye]

52. ALL of the Repiggie Candidates Except Ron Paul Say War, War, and More War

The Ghoul has hired Daniel Pipes and a bunch of other hard-core neocons as advisors, and we know what kind of advice he is getting from them.

These people don't do "HAVE TO". They will bankrupt the country to keep the war going. They'll start up the draft too.

[uppityperson]

67. All of them and no, we don't HAVE to get out of the middle east.

They can continue for a while longer. They can make a draft with provisions for their own and the rich/powerful to easily get out of. You seriously don't see a continuation of the Occupation of Iraq, even though you say "NO ONE dem or rep has proposed a plan for withdrawl".

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. It's not extreme

It's stupid and naive.

[artfan]

40. please provide support for this statement

[treestar]

38. If we the people would really blame the Democrats

We are stupid.

We need to fight them in the media. It can't be impossible.

Blame Bush the way they blame Clinton for everything. At least it would be true in this case.

[artfan]

42. Alas we are stupid

The democrats have yet to be bold. When slandered they need to take legal action but so far no luck. Getting out of Iraq will require either an acceptance of the fact that there will be a bloodbath in the vacuum we leave and/or a willingness to admit failure and ask for help. Who do you see doing this? None of the frontrunners for sure and even if done I don't see either option as going over well with the american people.

[treestar]

61. They don't like to "lose"

Somehow we have to get hold of the frame of the debate and get across that continuing the war is "losing" and that getting out is "winning." Which is exactly what the repukes would do.

The voters can be a really immature bunch - I hate to say it, but somehow they have to be appealed to in a way to get them to show more character - everything has to be sold to the voters, so we need a way for them to "look good" by withdrawing.

Even though they don't agree with the repukes on most issues, the voters respond to the way the repukes go about things. The Democrats could tap into that method without changing where they stand on the issues, and have that too.

[AndyTiedye]

53. Fighting them in the Media IS Impossible. They OWN It All

[treestar]

62. They don't own the internet, though

All it takes could be: make watching TV news look "square" and "uncool." The older generation is hopeless but the baby boomer generation can be appealed to with the fear they'll miss something if they get their news off of TV.

[AndyTiedye]

77. They Are Trying to Change That By Ending Network Neutrality

[question everything]

41. The only issue is the Supreme Court

Iraq, Iran, all fall under what the Constitution allows under checks and balances. And when in doubt - it is up to the Supreme Court.

There will be at least one vacancy in the near future, perhaps more. If we are having another Republican President and a rubber stamp Republican Senate, Bush's "legacy" for a court full of Scalias and Thomases will be realized thanks to.... liberals.

[artfan]

46. at this rate the dems will win with a landslide in 08

but what do you see changing in so many ways they are counting on it and not doing their jobs now! the only reason they have not started impeachment proceedings is they don't want to seem 'devisive' and offend the swing voters. I want to to see

1 a plan
2 guts

otherwise nothing will change

[valerief]

44. I don't think anyone here is going to fall for that. nt

[artfan]

45. fall for what

please explain

[gateley]

47. Biden, for one, keeps emphasizing that there is NO wiggle room for the

next Prez. Plenty and constant 'heads up'. I have to believe that if we do get snarled up in Iran, the Dem prez would present we the people with FACTS -- here's how we got here, here are our options, here's what we think is the best response in this instance, and here's why -- rather than just steamrolling over us like Bush and lying about what the admin was really doing.

But I've got to ask -- HOW can we go into Iran? WHO'S going to fight? WHO'S going to pay for it? Doubt if China will be our sugar daddy again.

[artfan]

48. I dont think it is smart but i do think they will do it

they have been aiming for iran for a long time and i dont see any evidence that they have restraint. if they instigate a confrontation in the final hours of the administration it will not be their problem. Have you seen that this administration has restraint? respect for law? common sense? I sure have not. Congressional approval is only needed if they need long term funding.

[Wiley50]

55. Extreme Butt? Well, you got that much right, Bud n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. If the US attacks Iran, or rather WHEN the US

attacks Iran, the fall of the American Empire will follow closely

When that happens, there is a chance you will not see elections

Hell if any of you think it is bad right now, wait... it will get far worst

My brother in law and I were talking about it, the background I developed for the RPG I wrote... it looks like prologue to the future

[uppityperson]

70. Exactly. It can get MUCH worse. Easily and quickly.

They don't "have" to pull out of the middle east at all. No way. That is scary. So is thinking they are sane enough to see this. So is posters like the OP. It can easily and quickly get worse.

[rucky]

58. My sister-in-law and her husband have a dog.

if the dog shits on the carpet, they'll both walk around it for days, each convinced that it's the other person's job to pick it up.

Now imagine this dog shit costs 250 million dollars per day, and about 5% of the people who smell it die. Even if it's not your job...it really is.

[Neshanic]

59. Your telling of things to come is true, and I have thought the same.

Do we want the steaming shitpile that is left after Bush? He's put us in a bad place to be sure sadly, he and his minions have infiltrated the government to the point where the Supreme Court, our entire justice system, everything will be pushed further into a nightmare scenario if another republican is elected.

It would not be so bad if we had any candidate that actually was worth a shit, and came out and told the facts to the american people, but instead have candidates that are having a contest to be the best Rockefeller republican. WE can't have our cake and eat it too, and neither can our candidates. Either they have to change the discourse of the coming elections drastically, or we will be in the amazing postion of losing the election anyway, and the republican steamroller continues on into a more incestuous and hideous final ultimate corruption machine under a new republican president.

The foundation is being laid to portray us as the weak on defense, waffling party now. See the latest talking points? Bush had a good month. People dare starting to "understand" his positions. This will be fully ramped up as the conventions near. Our "we voted for it, then did not, then thought about it, then had lunch with the persident, then talked to Colon Powell, then call the president out, then apologize the next second, candidates will not cut it this time.

[Annces]

63. I think the Democrat who wins

will have a thankless job, but maybe they want the Presidency so badly, they will do it no matter what. I really don't know if any of them actually loves America enough to take the pain, but will do it for their own love of the experience.

I can see your point, but will not vote republican.

edit: After reading some of the replies, I would have to say it would be dangerous to vote republican. They could make it so bad, it could make today look good by comparison. They could make dissent even more dangerous.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

64. That's an incredibly shitty reason to vote for a Republican. Then they can perpetuate corruption at

all the federal agencies and Dept. of Justice as they've been doing under Bush.

But I suspect you were going to vote that way anyway, so good luck.

[uppityperson]

71. If Democrats win, they WILL have a huge mess on their hands and will probably get blamed for it.

That is no reason to not try to stop these egomaniacal assholes from causing further damage.

[spanone]

72. if a republican wins in 2008, game over....end of USA as we have known it

perpetual war
perpetual terrorist attacks
perpetual obscene military budgets

they would 'deserve' to win for your reasons, but i hope that doesn't happen to our once great nation.

[Sanctified]

73. If this Admin attacks Iran it will mean that our Democratic Leadership Failed us.

And I will put all my energy into replacing every Democrat who voted to go into Iran or to fund the war in Iran with a real Democrat with balls. I will also vote Democrat for President in 08 I am not going to let the war party stay in power, because they are not going to stop in Iran.

[WinkyDink]

74. Supreme Court. Health care. Infrastructure. The Constitution.

[in_cog_ni_to]

75. You have got to be kidding me?!@#$% If a repuke is elected in '08, this country is FINISHED.

You have a much better chance of a Democrat cleaning up this freakin' mess the repukes have created than electing another repuke who will just continue with more of the same.....ENDLESS WAR. If you think we have a mess now...go ahead and elect another repuke. Then you might as well kiss the Constitution good bye. GAME OVER.

I think voters are smart enough to know who the hell created this mess.

IF we have someone like Wes Clark, who knows more about foreign policy than anyone, we'll have a very good chance of restoring our reputation around the world and ANY Democratic President will be better than ANY repuke running at fixing this freakin' disaster created by the repukes.

As far as the Dems being accused of "quitting and betraying" the troops????? BULLSHIT. The MAJORITY of citizens want us OUT of Iraq. The Democrats will be applauded (by those who really matter...DEMOCRATS/Independents) for ending the illegal invasion.

The Democrats won't be blamed for the horrendous economy either because the shit will hit the fan BEFORE the election. It will be OBVIOUS who is to blame for the depression.

on edit: You couldn't give me all the money in the world to EVER vote for a repuke. I don't care who it is, their ideology is completely opposite mine. Their stances on all issues are completely opposite of mine. There's no way I could ever vote for one no matter what the situation is.:(

[JerseygirlCT]

76. Supreme Court nt

[libnnc]

78. You're off your nut. eom.