Who else finds it oddly obscene..........

[OwnedByFerrets]

that on "any given sunday" in amerika, hundreds of thousands of people crowd into stadiums, screaming their lungs and hearts out for a game........all the while, half a world away, we invade a sovereign country and kill a million of its citizens, displace as many as 4 million of them, and still continue to go about our business of fun and joy as though nothing is wrong in that country. (sorry for the long sentence)

And its not just football and baseball. We go to the beach, to the park, shopping, boating just as we always have, with seldom or never a thought of the suffering that is happening over in Iraq. As has been said by many more, 98% (a number I pulled from my ass) of us have sacrificed NOTHING for this invasion and occupation and genocide of a ppl.

And, I truly believe NOTHING is going to change that. The war machine has taken over. Its too powerful and too entrenched. The news is big business now and war and tragedy sells. Why would they want that to end. It puts money in the coffers.

Anyway, this is just a rant that was caused by watching the games on tv and seeing all those cheering happy fans. And knowing that in Iraq, there is a child huddled in a corner somewhere, a mother praying for her families safety, and someone dying because we decided that oil was more important than their life blood.
It makes me sad.

[rucky]

1. Put the war on TV. Full media access.

and watch how quickly it would end.

[tritsofme]

3. With how desensitized generations of kids have become to such violence

Between realistic war video games and what not, I'm not so sure such a program wouldn't be highly rated and air in prime time.

[TomInTib]

8. Except for one BIG difference.

I have seen both video violence and real combat carnage.

If people were exposed to real, live combat-related film they would just freak.

Probably due to the adrenaline factor, the stuff I experienced first-hand didn't bother me nearly as much as did the video and pictures I saw later of the same scenes.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. The Bush Admin doesn't allow the news to show the massacre of Iraq. nt

[Chulanowa]

76. Just like Tom just said

There is an immediate and real difference between "fake" violence, and "real" violence. Something usually forgotten by the people convinced television and movies warp a child's perception of violence.

With movies, video games, etc, you go in knowing that what you are seeing is not really happening. That it';s an actor, or a framework of pixels, and that the blood is dyed corn syrup or yet more pixels.

And then you see footage from a war zone. A man gushing very real blood from the shrapnel wound in his chest, screaming in agony, eyes rolling around, grasping at his friends as they try desperately to calm him even just a bit. The sensation you get is entirely different from what you see in a movie or a game, because you know that the man is real. His wound is real. The blood, the screams, the pain, you know right there, that is not fake, it is not an actor or CGI or special effects, that is a human being who is dying in front of your eyes.

Even obscenely exploitive movies like the Saw series can't cut into that emotional response.

[defendandprotect]

40. That's why the Pentagon/WH took journalists out of the equation ---

WWII was fully covered by journalists traveling with troops --
So, too, in VN -- in fact, Gore was a soldier/journalist --
But, after Nam . . . the neo-cons decided that truth defeated them so they made sure that journalists weren't allowed.

[madokie]

150. what you said

the neo-cons decided that truth defeated them so they made sure that journalists weren't allowed.

is so spot on

[Olney Blue]

2. You are not alone. I am also shocked at the apathy and enabling.

:grr:

[Bitwit1234]

4. I yell at my son over and over that he is more interested in the NFL,

MLB, and NBA then he is in the war in Iraq, or bush's shredding of the constitution. By the way wonder what Stewart is going to ask Bill Clinton when he appears on the Daily Show Thursday.

[BlooInBloo]

5. Yes. It is absolutely obscene that *anyone* *anywhere* has ANY enjoyment of life....

.... since there's ALWAYS *someone* *somewhere* who isn't. Joy is so obscene.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

12. So you think a torturer laughing at a joke while he tortures a victim.

Isn't just a little obscene?

This isn't *anyone* having *any* joy.

It's people who are complicit in mass murder laughing and having fun.

John Wayne Gacy on the way to the Little League park for an outing.

[BlooInBloo]

15. Yah - football is JUST LIKE a torturer torturing a victim. You guys are bizarre.

[Shakespeare]

22. So you flunked Logic 101, huh?

Nobody suggested that your example wasn't obscene. But your example is also irrelevant and completely unrelated to both the question posed in the OP and the post to which you responded.

If I want to go to a football game and enjoy myself, it in no way means I approve of or am complicit in what happened at Abu Ghraib, and how utterly bizarre that you would even make that suggestion.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

27. Do you pay taxes in the US? n/t

It's your money going to pay for it.. Abu Ghraib and all.

[Shakespeare]

45. Again, COMPLETELY unrelated to the question at hand.

But don't let a little thing like logic get in your way.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

46. When your money goes to pay for something

You are responsible for what happens..

We all are.

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson

[nonconformist]

66. So what do you do with your free time?

Since it's obviously so righteous and selfless and all, I'd love to know.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

88. I didn't say that I don't do it too..

But that doesn't mean that I don't feel the responsibility when I think about it.

Which is actually fairly often..

[shimmergal]

132. No, you're not responsible, unless

your opinion or actions can affect what happens.

Plus, * is so addicted to debt and blood, he'd pursue the war at this point even without any tax revenue from ordinary citizens. Just borrow some more. . .

[Retired AF Dem]

160. Since I dont have a say that one I have the choice to pay taxes

or not and two I dont have a say on where it is spent I'm not responsible for shit. Man kind has been treating each other like shit long before I was born and mankind will treat each other like shit long after I'm dead. So as long as nobody is treating me like shit I'm going to go out and enjoy myself.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

167. There are always choices..

Often the choices are unpleasant though..

You could choose not to pay taxes if you wish.

[BlooInBloo]

26. And if anyone were to say it isn't about anyone having any joy, they'd just be "mistaken"...

... From the OP: it's not just football... "We go to the beach, to the park, shopping, boating..." - clearly any joy at all is obscene.

What bizarre people.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

41. I'm not saying I don't do the same thing..

But looked at from the right perspective, given that it is our dollars that initiated and are perpetuating the carnage in Iraq, then I think it is a little obscene.

The same way I think the 1936 Olympics were obscene.

[treestar]

155. No, but that much joy while claiming to be "at war" is

:banghead:

Anyone who was truly at war, say, in London during the blitz, would have to shake their heads at Americans of today describing their experience at the same level.

Even Americans who lived during WWII can hardly claim their state of life today is similar.

[NaturalHigh]

99. The Sooners are 3-0 so far...

but we all know it is obscene for me to enjoy that when there is injustice in the world. :eyes:

Here's something to ponder on: it is not a crime, nor is it obscene, for people to enjoy something in their lives once in a while.

[MrCoffee]

138. how you managed to survive the last 6 years is beyond me.

[treestar]

154. That's not the point! The point is they claim to be "at war"

and when you are "at war" yes, it is wrong to have much enjoyment, as that isn't really consistent with the state of being "at war."

At least, not of the kind, and not to the extent, that the right wingers who support this war have.

[Annces]

6. I wonder if football games

are not a kind of cult in our country. People need group-think.

[Skittles]

7. you won't find me at a stupid game

you would find me boxing up shoes to send to Iraqi children though. I absolutely hear what you are saying. :(

[BobRossi]

9. Little Big Horn

1876 Chicago White Stockings won the pennant

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

10. I Don't. I Find It Quite Healthy In Fact.

If we were to focus on the misery of all people on this planet who are suffering, no matter what country they're in, and couldn't allow ourselves to feel any joy or contentment whatsoever until each and every inhabitant of the earth was safe, stable and relatively in good spirits, then we would all be doomed to succumb to certifiable insanity. If we were to fixate on such things, if we were to adopt a mental policy such as that which you put forth in your OP, we'd all go mad.

So though it is absolutely ethically and morally correct to be aware of others' suffering and stop to give thought to it from time to time, and though each of us would be acting honorably by doing that which we can reasonably do to assist others, it would be completely unhealthy and unwise to go through life compounding other people's misery as if your own.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

16. Excellent post...

Becoming absorbed in a guilt trip will not solve the world's problems. Allowing sufficient time for recreation can put us in a frame of mind where we can make positive headway.

[slowry]

58. The OP didn't say "the misery of all people on this planet who are suffering";

your post doesn't even address the topic at hand.

[Truth2Tell]

83. to be aware of others' suffering and stop to give thought to it ??

I think it takes more than that to be "ethically and morally correct," OMC

So though it is absolutely ethically and morally correct to be aware of others' suffering and stop to give thought to it from time to time, and though each of us would be acting honorably by doing that which we can reasonably do to assist others...

I think that to really be ethically and morally correct we need to take into account the fact that our nation is complicit in the suffereing of many others. When we understand that, our ethical obligation becomes more than just to "be aware of others' suffering and give thought to it," or to do what "we can reasonbly do to assist" Our ethical obligation - once we understand our complicity - is to act to stop inflicting harm.

I don't give a rats ass if people watch football. But I do wish some of them would reflect on their complicity and begin acting to stop inflicting harm.

[treestar]

156. Oh come on. Talk about a way to miss the point.

No one is saying you can never be happy.

The point is that describing our current state as being "at war" exaggerates a bit, don't you think? We indeed would have little joy if we were at war, as war is generally a bad thing.

The point is not that you can't have any fun, even during a war, some people can have some fun. It's the extent of our claims (or the right wing's claims) that we are suffering a state of being "at war" that is inconsistent with just how easy and fun their lives are.

During WWII, the World Series was cancelled, I believe. A lot of partying that normally takes place didn't take place. Not because people were killjoys, but because, actually and truly being at war, no one was in the mood.

Here it is possible to be "at war" and not even notice it.

[democrat2thecore]

159. Existential despair can only be held at bay by existential joy

Though, I understand the sentiment of the original post. It's a paradoxical thing that seems way out of whack, but I still believe my subject line.

[keep_it_real]

11. The reason is control of the news media . . .

. . . To block out the real, true issues and thereby produce ignorance

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[orleans]

13. i heard (probably on radio) a soldier talking and saying

"we're over here dying in iraq and the rest of america is at the mall"

[BlueJazz]

14. I understand what you're saying but ...in fairness..There're a lot....

...of Folks that "fight the battle" when it comes to voting rights, helping others and protesting the War but they also go to Sport events to let off steam and enjoy themselves for 3 hours.

[aquart]

24. Or they could read a book.

[BlueJazz]

28. Yeah...But it's rather hard to scream.....

"We're Number ONE...We're Number ONE!!!!" when you're reading War and Peace.

:spank:

[defendandprotect]

42. Well . . . no. I think men have been given this distraction to keep them from thinking politically

and it worked!

Politics effects your life every moment of your life --

"Watch the bouncing ball" and you'll see the stupidity of American life ---

[treestar]

157. I think that was just an example

I've been to sporting events and enjoyed them, but can still get the point without taking it personally.

The right wingers do all this and live their lives as normal, yet snidely inform us that "we are at war" if we argue about something like, oh say, another piece of damage to our civil liberties.

[whoneedstickets]

17. Marx said that Religion is the 'Opiate of the Masses'

Turns out, Pro Sports is the 'Meth-amphetamines of the Masses'.

[JVS]

70. What are Chuck's credentials on having experienced either opiates or religion?

[LanternWaste]

123. Less sports theses days and more...

Less sports theses days and more I-Pods, Console Gamings Systems and Cable TV as the New Opiate. It keeps so many people fulfilled and tuned out as to be almost comic in and of itself...

[Bluzmann57]

18. Well, some folks like to enjoy themselves

and yet still find time and empathy to do volunteer work and political activism and attend church services, etc. etc. I can't speak for others, but in my case, I'd sort of like to escape from the real world for a few hours each week and enjoy a sporting event or be with friends and family at a picnic or something like that. The war and every other current event is never far from my mind, but we all need to lighten up sometime and enjoy life. Heck, next Saturday I am going to attend a concert by a prominent musician which is actually a fund raiser for education in inner city schools. Is that wrong? No it isn't. Lighten up. Things are bad out there, but you can't go through life being a gloomy gus all the time.

[aquart]

19. We're at war. Why aren't these able-bodied men in uniform?

Are they cowards? Scared of friendly fire? Unpatriotic? Why doesn't every single sports reporter ask every single athlete why that perfect body isn't fighting for his country?

[ourbluenation]

33. maybe because they are 100% anti-bush, anti-war liberals like my football playin' son. sheesh. n/t

[aquart]

54. Which would be a good answer if they'd ask the question.

Did I hear an ox being gored?

[Marrah_G]

104. How odd you would think these people support the war because they play sports......

I guess you missed the basketball player who was reciting a beautiful piece of modern poetry at the DC rally yesterday...

Very twisted logic you are using.

[toddaa]

20. Why is the Iraq War special?

Did we get upset about the people being slaughtered in East Timor? Or Cambodia? Or El Salvador? Or anywhere else that American foreign policy has its tentacles in. The fact that we are finally worrying about children in Iraq dying because of our government strikes me as just bit of too little, too late.

A point that Noam Chomsky makes is that if average Americans spent as much time studying American foreign policy as they do studying football or baseball trivia, we'd have a much better engaged citizenry.

[Lint Head]

21. It's called mass hypnosis. It's not 'tin foil hat stuff'. It's a common

practice that's taught, overtly or subliminally, by all schools of advertising, by any university that teaches social engineering concepts. Mass marketing taken to the scientific edge is where all major multi billion and multi trillion dollar corporations operate. The core idea is to keep things positive because positive sells. Don't you think that the average consumer would rather see
scantily clad cheerleaders dance and uber testosteroned athletes perform rather that the sight of dead soldiers, foreigners lying on the bloody soil? :dem:

[onenote]

75. were they practicing it during WWII? WWI?

Baseball and football continued through the war years. They also made movies and gave out academy awards. And people celebrated christmas and birthdays and got married and all sorts of stuff went on. Damn hypnosis.

[Thothmes]

97. Same was true during Korea & Viet Nam

[HCE SuiGeneris]

23. The apathy is so deep that the criminals in government completely miscalculated

our reaction to them perpetrating monstrous crimes. They expected to declare martial law, and we never gave them enough reason.

[TahitiNut]

29. Look at this and consider what SOME people have done to protest the acts of their own government.

Do we REALLY think we're doing everything we can do? Really?

This is what some "fundamentalists" have done to defend their freedoms.

[2rth2pwr]

77. Let me see, watch football or light myself on fire?

Hmmmmmm..........


wait I'm thinking

[TahitiNut]

105. The man who has nothing he'd die for ...

... has nothing to live for. :shrug:

IMHO, of course. As always, YMMV. :eyes:

[Ghost in the Machine]

91. "This is what some "fundamentalists" have done to defend their freedoms."

and how did *that* work out for him? Is he enjoying his freedoms?

Sorry, I just can't wrap my head around the concept....

[eridani]

30. The poet Denise Levertov had a wonderful answer to that in the Vietnam era

Life at War

The disasters numb within us
caught in the chest, rolling
in the brain like pebbles. The feeling
resembles lumps of raw dough

weighing down a child’s stomach on baking day.
Or Rilke said it, ‘My heart . . .
Could I say of it, it overflows
with bitterness . . . but no, as though

its contents were simply balled into
formless lumps, thus
so I carry it about.’
The same war

continues.
We have breathed the grits of it in, all our lives,
our lungs are pocked with it,
the mucous membrane of our dreams
coated with it, the imagination
filmed over with the gray filth of it:

the knowledge that humankind,

delicate Man, whose flesh
responds to a caress, whose eyes
are flowers that perceive the stars,

whose music excels the music of birds,
whose laughter matches the laughter of dogs,
whose understanding manifests designs
fairer than the spider’s most intricate web,

still turns without surprise, with mere regret
to the scheduled breaking open of breasts whose milk
runs out over the entrails of still-alive babies,
transformation of witnessing eyes to pulp-fragments,
implosion of skinned penises into carcass-gulleys.

We are the humans, men who can make;
whose language imagines mercy,
lovingkindness; we have believed one another
mirrored forms of a God we felt as good—

who do these acts, who convince ourselves
it is necessary; these acts are done
to our own flesh; burned human flesh
is smelling in Viet Nam as I write.

Yes, this is the knowledge that jostles for space
in our bodies along with all we
go on knowing of joy, of love;

our nerve filaments twitch in its presence
day and night,
nothing we say has not the husky phlegm of it in the saying,
nothing we do has the quickness, the sureness,
the deep intelligence living at peace would have

[HCE SuiGeneris]

31. Thank you for that.

Great poetry has no substitute.

[DemBones DemBones]

63. Denise Levertov has always been one of my favorite contemporary poets.

Thanks for posting that. :thumbsup:

[ourbluenation]

32. I HATE the war and I LOVE football. what does that make me? n/t

GO FORTYNINERS!!!

[BlooInBloo]

36. Makes you a perfectly fine, normal person. It's these others that are fucking freaks.

[Skittles]

47. not speaking of individuals

it is the collection of people fanatic about sports and so comparatively few people fanatical about ending the war

[Dr. Strange]

49. It makes you a truly evil person!

Not the fact that you love football--the fact that you're a fortyniners fan! Go Broncos!
:evilgrin:

[smoogatz]

34. Walking and chewing gum.

I can do both at once. I can also watch football and oppose the war simultaneously. Astounding, isn't it?

[OwnedByFerrets]

35. Thank you for all your thoughts,

especially those of you who understood my statements and wrote thoughtful intelligent replies.
When you live in the deep south (I'm sure this is true of other areas too) and are a full-blooded progressive, its very difficult to find like minded individuals to talk about the things we discuss at DU. I very much appreciate that I can vent my feelings here and find sympathetic ears and heart.

[uppityperson]

37. I know what you mean. Not just sports, not just "taking a break", but the overall

not caringness. I know.

[defendandprotect]

43. It's not the individual thing -- it's the overall organized sports thing -- it's not one person . .

going to a game -- it's nationalized -- it's Football weekends -- it's, in fact, a ton of crap.

[uppityperson]

51. "some" say that it is a way to channel agression into non-harmful activities.

"some" say it is a way to continue encouraging agression. I'm not a fan of sports, of "us" vs "them", rah rah.

[defendandprotect]

68. Actually, if often looks more like it creates aggression . . . ??? Domestic violence?

Aren't football Sundays notable days for domestic violence????

And remember the crap about "sports creating character" -- could you think of a bigger lie at this point????

[renie408]

84. My daughter played soccer and we think it was a big help to her. n/t

[defendandprotect]

107. Women were long denied a role in sports . . . the concept of organized . . .

sports, however, at the levels we have them now is the question --
And, what MALES have learned from the high level and aggressive approaches to sports --

From the Olympics to "spying" on other teams -- we can see the corruption and dishonesty that it creates.

[Goblinmonger]

119. My son

is 11. he won state wrestling for his age and weight class last year. He is starting linebacker on his football team. he is the greatest kid you would ever meet. stop with the broadbrushing, please.

[defendandprotect]

144. OK . . . there's no patriarchy and there never was one. That make you feel better -- ???

[Goblinmonger]

162. I can't believe I missed this fall's strawman sale!!!

When did I say there was never any patriarchy? I am just indicating that it is kind of bigoted and broad-brushed of you to say that men who like football are heartless thugs who cheer on the war. Apparently that distinction is too hard for you to make.

[defendandprotect]

165. It's a "strawman" when you want to divert attention from the whole to one --

We are talking about sports, in general --
and you've tried to interject a personal framework and your son for a bit of emotionality.

Nor is it "bigoted" to criticize male sports or to challenge patriarchy --

And, speaking of "strawmen" -- please let me know where I said this . . .
QUOTE: bigoted and broad-brushed of you to say that men who like football are heartless thugs who cheer on the war.UNQUOTE

Unfortunately, there do seem to be connections between Football Sunday and domestic violence; it might help us all if you opened your mind to this reality.

[Goblinmonger]

170. I think it is statistically dishonest

to claim there is a significant correlation between football and violence.

For your reading pleasure:
http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/superbowl.asp
http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=16931

[defendandprotect]

171. I think you're pretty much the dishonesty around here ---

[Goblinmonger]

172. Wow. Hard to argue with that.

I mean, I gave a couple articles that pretty much show there is no statistically significant correlation between football and domestic violence and one of the two actually shows that there is a much stronger correlation between Christmas and domestic violence (yet, oddly, I don't hear you calling for the banishment of religion or mocking those that dare to celebrate the holiday while there is a war on). But I have nothing to say against, "I know you are but what am I." It's just too logically stellar.

[Bill McBlueState]

128. "Aren't football Sundays notable days for domestic violence?"

That sounds like an urban legend.

Here's what Snopes has to say about one particular football Sunday:

Claim: More women are victims of domestic violence on Super Bowl Sunday than on any other day of the year.

Status: False.

more here

[Marrah_G]

114. It's a ton of crap to YOU

Do you ever find yourself choking on all that self-righteousness?

[defendandprotect]

145. Good debate -- nice to see you -- !!!

[bonito]

38. .

:grouphug:

[defendandprotect]

39. Whether or not things are going to change depends on our accepting things as they are; inevitable --

they aren't --

Even if you think you're going to lose this battle for your country and the ideals of democracy, you have to continue the fight -- right?

[Goblinmonger]

44. I can't believe that people do anything but read.

Going to jobs, thinking about the war, watching sports is all bullshit in comparison to the benefits that can be gained from reading. There are so many great books and more being written all the time. How can anyone not spend all day reading and gaining all that can be from that?

On edit: yeah, what does posting on DU bitching about football watchers do for the cause exactly? Why aren't you out doing something more productive?

[Blue-Jay]

48. Apple, meet Orange.

Orange, meet Apple.

OP, meet Non Sequitur.

Non Sequitur, meet OP.

[Gregorian]

50. I guess some of us are better at knowing the truth without it being shown to us.

I've been in a state of mourning for years. I'm talking about EMO. I'm not having a psychiatric problem. I mean I know what is going on. I mean I feel like Vonnegut or Chomsky, or anyone on this forum.

TO BE HONEST, I'M REPULSED BY THIS SOCIETY. EVERYWHERE I GO I SEE PEOPLE ON IGNORE. AND IT ANGERS ME AND DEPRESSES ME. BECAUSE I KNOW OUR MEN AND WOMEN IN THE MILITARY AND THE IRAQIS AND AFGHANIS ARE BEING SHOT AND BLOWN UP.

[BB1]

90. a former lieutenant and I

got together this weekend to discuss the war. It occurred to me that many (former) army personnel are giving great thought to the war, because we still have collegues in Afghanistan. 'We' as in 'the Dutch'.
People all over the world are caring and experience the same feelings you do - those of helplessness. We can't figure out what to do, how to make our government pay attention, why it's still going on while everyone knows it's a scam.

So now I'm going to make an effort. I'm contacting the Iranian Ambassy (they open at 14.00 local time) and the American Ambassy this week, and with a touch of luck something might show up in a magazine this month.
If (and that's a big IF) the allies can make their Presidents and Prime-Ministers and Kings and Queens take a stand against the Bush-Cabinet, we might see something yet.
How about foreign leaders showing up in the White House and telling Bush off. "You gotta stop this war, George. Otherwise we're going to get you to The Hague..."

It should be simple enough - point out what a war-criminal looks like, and have the evidence point at George W. Bush and Dick Cheney.

I feel for you guys. I talked to my grandmother last weekend (she's 92) and she vividly remembers living under the Nazi-occupation of the Netherlands. It was scary as if hell. They got freed by Americans and Canadians, and we did greet those brave men as liberators. We flung ourselves into their arms, and we gladly accepted their money as help for rebuilding.
In return, we married many of them and went to live in the States, taking with us knowledge of farming, trading and manufacturing. We didn't have any oil.

[Gregorian]

127. Thank you.

I appreciate that you care. And your involvement is to be praised. And thank you for being on this forum to tell us.

I guess it helps when you've seen war. I'm Armenian. I have stories from my grandmother. And my father. That was genocide.

One million dead Iraqis already makes these people in our administration war criminals. I'm sure many of those deaths are due to civil clashes. But there is no doubt they deserve the Hague already.


I like your idea immensely. Please continue with it. Maybe we'll finally get some response to this group of murdering oil men.

[BB1]

152. You're welcome

I put in a request for an interview with Ambassador Ziaran this morning. I'm very curious what he can tell me. I'll be sure to let all of you know.

I've seen war, and it's ugly.
I've also seen Baghdad in september 2002 (five years ago today) and it was beautiful. Today, it's falling apart if it weren't for the bulletholes holding stuff together. Iran is going down the same road if we're not careful. The USA might be next, 'specially (if) when GWB moves his sorry ass to Paraguay.

We in Europe are caught in the meatgrinder. imagine what a great nice nuke would do to the densest populated area in the world. (iow: get them nukes of them goddam planes!)

[unblock]

52. during the civil war, they had picnics watching the battles themselves

so at least they were topical.

[mtowngman]

53. What I usually say about paying attention to football or sports

in general is that if a kid gets interested, and maybe happens to be good, he gets a shot at some scholarship money to get into college when he otherwise might not have had the chance. What I find offensive is what the msm chooses to focus on in the middle of all that you mention.
Exaples:*Blowhard old republican senator soliciting sex in the bathroom
*Brittany
*OJ
*American Idol
-ad nauseum

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. However, it's even easier for a poor child who has top-notch grades to

get a scholarship.

The last private college I worked for had low-income but brilliant students who were attending for $2000 a year.

Sports are NOT the only route to college.

[mtowngman]

65. I absolutely agree, and I'd rather see a kid do it via top notch grades

but not every kid is brilliant where grades are concerned. All kids deserve a shot at a decent education. My point to the op is that football and sports in general do have some social value.:hi:

[WinkyDink]

55. It has ever been thus.

[Fading Captain]

56. Our War President says

It's our job to go on living our lives the way we always do.

God damn it, I'm doing my job for the country!

[Ellen Forradalom]

57. Nothing odd about it. It's just obscene.

But it's not the fact that we live our lives that's obscene. Life wills itself forward. It's the war that's obscene.

[DemBones DemBones]

59. You do know that during all wars, the people

not directly involved have gone on living fairly normal lives?

When there is no war (as if!) there are always people starving and dying of preventable diseases elsewhere in the world. With sad frequency, there are floods and earthquakes and plane crashes taking many lives at once. Not to mention the 55,000 killed every year in the US in auto accidents, the horrible murders, spousal abuse, child abuse. There are many bad things in the world. But there are good things, too.

If all you do is think about the pain in the world, you could make yourself insane.

And you won't make the war stop, either.

If you want this war to end, let the leading Democrats, particularly Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, and all the presidential candidates, know that in no uncertain terms. And don't vote for anyone who is going to continue the war in Iraq and probably allow the bombing of Iran.

Demonstrate, write letters, campaign, but don't forget to have some fun, too. Enjoy your life; your enjoyment of life is not going to hurt anyone.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

60. The only thing that Americans take to the streets en masse for

are celebrations of sports championships or drunken riots when their team loses such championships.

Their nation committing war crimes? No problem, as long as there are sports on TV and clothes to buy in the shopping malls.

[defendandprotect]

71. So true --- -- - - - - - - - - !!!!

[Bluebear]

86. They don't know.

They still don't know. Of the people I work with, 90% are completely oblivious. And these are otherwise good people. Half of them are still shellshocked from 9/11 and think we're getting even, the other half have some vague notion that something is going on over there...whenever I start talking about it they look at me as if I am quite batty.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

93. But the truth IS out there if they'd only switch off the TV

Hell, much of it has BEEN on TV, especially Abu Ghraib.

They're programmed from childhood to think that only sports, making money, and looking good are really important.

We all had the same programming. Why did only some of us break out of it?

[nonconformist]

62. Because life has to go on, or you will just wallow in depression

At least, it's that way for me. I'm well aware of the horrible things going on in this world... and I do what I can, but I have to keep living my life, and yes, try to be happy.

eta: And since when did being a football fan, which I am, equate to supporting the war, which I most certainly do not?

[proud2BlibKansan]

64. You echo my thoughts beautifully

In June, we hosted Adam Kokesh, the Marine who was threatened with the loss of his honorable discharge. His hearing was here in our city. We had a rally for him and 200 people came.

That same weekend, 17,000 fans showed up to watch The Chiefs at a free practice. 17,000 people were more interested in watching a group of overpaid athletes practice a game they don't play very well than in supporting a veteran fighting for his right to speak out against the war.

Makes me wonder where our priorities are.

[slowry]

67. We are the chosen ones. "Plug in, turn on, and cop out", my friend! Join usssssssssss!

:sarcasm:

[lpbk2713]

69. Something like the Roman circus.

And we have Nero for an Emperor.

[Swamp Rat]

72. panem et circenses

[defendandprotect]

73. Think this thread is overdue and needs enlarging . . ..

It's not just that we have this sports insanity juxtaposed against the war --
it's distortion of life even if there was no war.

Too much money in organized sports and too much time has always been spent by men staring at TV screens and/or talking sports, etal.

And that whole scene has been brought into our towns/suburbs with "organizing" kids --
and having been involved, I'd say it disrupts family time together -- suddenly everyone is doing the same thing! Why?

And, consider the competition -- is this necessarily good for kids? I don't think so.
But -- this isn't new . . . women have long been pointing out to males the uselessness of chasing balls --

And the gay sport we call wrestling !!! LOL

[Hoof Hearted]

78. Of course it is, but on any given Sunday of any given year

since there have ever been Sundays, great numbers of people were suffering and dying somewhere.

Should you never laugh because someone, somewhere is suffering? I hope you do cheer, and laugh, and smile. It will help make you a stronger, more balanced person to help fight against the things that make all of us cry.

[Gonzo Gardener]

79. this has been on my mind for the last 25 years...

If people could give half the energy that they expend on cheering for the 'home team' and dedicate it to good works this world would be better for it.

[Raine]

80. Life goes on

so no I don't look on it as "obscene". You never know what all these people who look like they are enjoying themselves cope with everyday, all sorts of things. I'm not going to begrudge someone time out now and then to forget for a while the trials and tribulations in their lives.

The next day the people who were enjoying themselves Sunday might be working as volunteers in soup kitchens, helping abused women, fighting against poverty or any number of things. In order to do the serious things sometimes you need a break now from them.

Edit: Changed one word.

[earth mom]

81. No, life shouldn't "go on" like it has. People in this country are so self absorbed it's disgusting.

:puke:

[defendandprotect]

113. I agree. I'd rather not celebrate "Thanksgiving" and . . . .

actually we only celebrate the Winter Solstice now -- Xmas is long gone.

The Thanksgiving thing is really difficult -- marching thru the stores with overloaded carts -- total distraction for more than two weeks --

We should call it off until the end of the war ---

And, maybe if we did some things like this the end of the war would come faster ????

This doesn't mean that you can't play catch with your kids -- run a soccer ball with your daughter --
play basketball --

but, I think the emphasis has to shift from viewing to doing.

[conscious evolution]

137. "I think the emphasis has to shift from viewing to doing."

So true.
So true.
The last couple of months I have done more doing then viewing.
I highly recommend it.

[renie408]

82. Yeah, I think people should stop having fancy weddings and getting their pictures taken!

Instead of capturing the romance and the magic, we should be completely focused on capturing Osama Bin Laden. I say we ban all public displays (including weddings) until this war is OVER!!

BTW...people managed to go to baseball games during WWII (different people playing). And they had dances and parties and lived their lives WHILE managing to sacrifice for their country. I agree that we are not being asked to sacrifice, but don't you think it is a little ridiculous to expect people to sit at home in sack cloth and ashes? For how long? What if the war drags on for another ten years like they want it to? What...do you want us to become a nation of cutters? Would that display our angst properly?

[defendandprotect]

112. There is little comparison between sports of WWII and today ---

These are sports industries -- corporate sports.

[Tinksrival]

116. Good eye renie408

That bit of hypocrisy in the op's post stood out like a sore thumb to me. I was wondering if any one else would notice.
How can one write such a post about sports vs. war and still hawk romantic wedding day photos??? Just asking.

[Bluebear]

85. You're going to take my Red Sox away too?

Please don't fault our humanity. Sports, arts, whatever enjoyment we have left... those of us who abhor this war, who did not support it from the start, who grieve those who have been lost...is there to be no enjoyment anymore? What if the Bush machine keeps it going and expands it to Iran and it goes on another 15 years?

[defendandprotect]

109. Whoa! Don't try to connect sports with the arts --!!!

As RFK, Jr. recently said, this is the most entertained country and the least politically informed.

[Bluebear]

115. Sorry, I love baseball AND Samuel Barber.

:hi:

[hack89]

87. Do you know how hard it is to get a decent hair shirt? nt

[renie408]

92. Just go with the sackcloth and ashes...n/t

[MadHound]

89. In this stressed out insane world, even the most dedicated have to take a break once in awhile

Asking for people to be fully focused one hundred percent of the time is utterly ridiculous. People have to take a break, blow off steam, get some enjoyment from life in order to recharge their batteries and carry on the fight.

Condemning people for doing just this is a wrong move. It alienates the very people we need.

[defendandprotect]

110. The problem isn't harmless distraction; the problem we're discussing is sports and the ....

male obsession with them -- to the point of rioting in the streets when one's team wins!!!!

[Goblinmonger]

117. Wow

how bigotted a statement is that? How is that any different than, "the problem we're discussing is shoes and the female obsession with them--to the point of rioting in the stores when there is a good sale"? why aren't you bitching about women buying clothes they don't "need" when there is a war on. And women aren't fans of sports? Really? Should we not cheer for the American women's soccer team or would a female cheering for them not be part of what you are complaining about since no men are involved? Oh, wait, the ref might have testicles.

Good grief. get over yourself.

[defendandprotect]

142. Right! The problem is women buying shoes -- ????

[Goblinmonger]

163. Soooooooo,

are you going to address the comparison I made, or just make non-sequitors? How is your statement about men any different than the statement I made about women?

[onenote]

129. the OP discussed rioting in the streets? I must have a different version than you

The "problem" that we're discussing isn't the "male obsession" with sports or rioting by sports fan. The "problem" as identified by the OP was, that "on any given Sunday...hundreds of thousands of people crowd into stadiums, screaming their lungs and hearts out for a game........And its not just football and baseball. We go to the beach, to the park, shopping, boating just as we always have, with seldom or never a thought of the suffering that is happening over in Iraq." The OP goes on to indicate that the source of her concern is "watching the games on tv and seeing all those cheering happy fans."

So where are the obsessed males and rioters?

[defendandprotect]

143. You do --

[onenote]

149. care to share the version of the OP that apparently you and only you read?

[defendandprotect]

166. Bluntly, any further discussion with you would be a waste of time ---

thanks, anyway --

[laruemtt]

94. our karma's gonna be a b*tch when

it hits us - and it WILL hit us. physics demands it.

[harun]

95. I was pondering this yesterday as well...

I got to wondering if these events, adults playing games for entertainment purposes, should be changed to be non-profit charity raising events only. I wouldn't be so disgusted by them then, and people would feel (appropriately) that the money they are putting in to such entertainment activities can help people who need it.

[onenote]

96. Gee. Was Woodstock "oddly obscene" too?

A war was going on for heaven's sake. And yet hundreds of thousands of young people got together and played in the mud, got high, tripped, got naked, laughed, smiled, listened to music for three days. And not just serious antiwar music, but frivolous music like "Let's Go To the Hop" by Sha Na Na, Soul Sacrifice by Santana, Turn on Your Lovelight by the Grateful Dead, Suzy Q by Creedence and on and on and on.

And to answer the question, no I don't find it "oddly obscene" that people still go to baseball and football games and to NASCAR events, and the track, and circuses and street fairs, and the opera and movies and laugh at jokes and read the comics section of the paper or enjoy a funny book.

Are there people on this list that really have eschewed all of these things? I doubt it.

[defendandprotect]

111. Woodstock was about nature and celebrating it -- with anti-war focus ---

[Goblinmonger]

118. Woodstock was about drugs

and ass-kicking music. Don't fool yourself.

[defendandprotect]

141. OK, it was about drugs . . .. with anit-war focus --

[NaturalHigh]

98. Let's all just start hating everything about life then.

After all, we know that we're not allowed to enjoy anything, and we're all supposed to be pissed off all the time about something.

By the way, I scream my lungs out on Saturday during the college games, not on Sunday.

[Erva]

100. I love sports

When I had cancer, watching hockey was the ONLY time I could stop wondering, for a few minutes, if I would live long enough to raise my children. Last night I watched the Pats trounce the Chargers and I slept like a baby, unconcerned about the check-up I have on Tuesday. There are a LOT of things that those masses are thinking about and it isn't always shopping. Charity and kindness start at home.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

101. Well said. It is very sad.

[Baby Snooks]

102. Just another sport...

For a great many Americans, Irag is nothing more than a giant football field. And they are cheering on the home team.

We are a very sick society. And getting even sicker.

[Marrah_G]

103. I don't find it odd

Would huddling inside, depressed and forlorn be the answer?

This weekend I emailed my brother in Iraq to say "Hi", then I took my daughter to DC for the Anti-war March, then I came home and took my boys to the Pats game Sunday.

For some people it is possible to do and think about a number of different things at the same time.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

106. in Britain they play cricket

throughout history life goes on in the predatory country.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

108. The part I find obscene is the war.

I couldn't care less if people enjoy football.

:shrug:

[OwnedByFerrets]

120. Thank you for all your replies,

especially those of you who understood my statements and wrote thoughtful intelligent replies. And to those who didn't, thank you also. It helps to get differing ideas on controversial subjects.

When you live in the deep south (I'm sure this is true of other areas too) and are a full-blooded progressive, its very difficult to find like minded individuals to talk about the things we discuss at DU.
I very much appreciate that I can vent my feelings here and find sympathetic ears and heart.

And, after ready all of the replies, please don't think I was suggesting that we shouldn't have pleasure or joy in our lives. That would be terrible. I was only saying that for me, its very sad that most in Iraq cannot do the same because of this administrations policies and because of OUR inability to stop it.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

130. I live in the deep South also..

And even among my own family there is no one to talk to really.

Not that they are all that right wing, they are basically unpolitical and roll their eyes if I even mention anything related to politics.

Trying to get them to think is the worst sin I'm capable of in their eyes.

[LanternWaste]

121. No more obscene than going...

No more obscene than going to see an art exhibit and getting joy from it that same day.

Even were the war non-existent, people would still starve, people would still die of disease, mothers would still be heartbroken, guns would still get fired.

I can cheer on one aspect of humanity and find a completely different aspect horrifying-- all at the same time. But in all things, balance.

[tomreedtoon]

122. Sports is just plain evil.

I knew it back in junior high. I especially knew it when a stupid football jock damn near raped me in a hallway in high school.

But you, OwnedByFerrets, took this long to realize it. Well, thanks for waking up.

[Marrah_G]

125. I like sports

In fact my favorite time of the week is watching my boyfriend coaching High School Football. He absolutely shines on those days. He loves his players and they love him.

I was raped by an auto mechanic when I was 16. Doesn't mean I think that all Mr Goodwrenches are rapists.

[LanternWaste]

126. Just like the Marching Bands, Chess Clubs, and Choir Recitals

Just like the Marching Bands, Chess Clubs, and Choir Recitals. Evil! All evil, I tellya!

[tomreedtoon]

133. No Chess Club member ever raped me.

Nor the marching band, nor the choir recitals, nor any of the other non-testosterone, non-violent clubs. Just the people you encourage to bash and nearly kill others in your high schools, colleges and professional beer-drinking organizations.

[LanternWaste]

134. HS marching bands are filled with testosterone

Other than the rape charge, I can't tell any differences between the sports beer-drinking organizations and the marching band beer-drinking organizations. But lets be honest-- Vegas odds will tell you that a Marching Band weenie, somewhere, sometime raped a young lady-- so I think it's only valid to lump them all together in one giant invalid, sweeping generalization.

And if you don't think that HS marching bands are filled with testosterones, you didn't go to a public school.

A school organization doesn't make one a rapist-- lay that responsibility on the individual's feet, not that a football team.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

135. My daughter was voted Sargeant at Arms in her marching band..

When I see a football team vote a girl for team captain, I'll agree with you about the testosterone in marching band.

[LanternWaste]

161. O-k. I guess I'll issue the sweeping generalization...

O-k. I guess I'll issue the sweeping generalization that all babysitters are pedophiles as I was molested by one when I was a young lad.

All in all, football teams, marching bands and all the other extra-curricular activities at public schools are there to better teach leadership and socialization skills. If one abuses the position that they're in (like a babysitter), does that mean we condemn the individual or the organization?

If the latter, what is the precise and relevant non-anecdotal evidence that said organization teaches (or, at best-- tolerates) the behavior?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

168. What in the hell are you talking about? n/t

[LanternWaste]

124. What's new?

"I wondered if anyone would realize what it cost the soldiers to win this war. Back home, in America, things were already beginning to look like peacetime. The standard of living was on the rise, hotels and nightclubs were booming, you couldn't get a hotel room in Miami Beach, it was so crowded. How could anyone know the price paid by the soldiers in terror, agony, and bloodshed, if they'd never been to places like Normandy, Bastogne, or Hagenau?"

PFC David Kenyon Webster from S. Ambrose's book, 'Band of Bothers'


I don't think the obscenity you're referring to is new...

[bryant69]

131. Lot's of peopel died today in Iraq

I'm going to go home and watch cooking shows and the Simpsons.

Those two facts don't jibe well.

Bryant
http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Vilis Veritas]

136. Sadness has its place.

Just make sure it does not move in and take over.

Peace.

[lonestarnot]

139. K'd & R'd, but I don't watch the damn games, go to the park, shopping or boating, but

I seldom miss a protest.

[Swamp Rat]

151. That's cuz you kick ass!

:yourock:

:kick:

[Dystopian]

140. I'm with you.....it all makes me sick.

Five months ago I held my newborn grandson. I looked up into my daughter's eyes....and remembered when I held her for the first time. This is a feeling many of us can relate to.....the most beautiful and powerful feeling of wonderment and awe...There are no words.

And as looked back down at his beautiful little face, I started to cry....
"Nicki, just think of all the mothers who remember holding their babies for the first time.....All the soldiers who have died, all the Iraqi women who have lost their children"....I lost it. This war has taken over every aspect of my life...My first moment of joy with my grandson found me crying for all of the mothers and families who have lost loved ones....There's millions of them...

Since then, I have cried because he will never know his grandfather, a casualty of the Vietnam war over 20 years later.
PTSD....died of a heroin overdose....the suffering goes on for generations..

peace~

[Greyhound]

146. It's not the ritual and the sport that I find obscene, it is the fact that we

gladly shell out more than enough money for these distractions to easily pay to cure all the ills that our society suffers from. Education, health care, infrastructure, alternative energy sources, world hunger, and on and on and on.

And, it's not the players, they are doing what they love and would do it for a tiny fraction of what they're paid, it's the owners and the networks and all the rest of the "bread and circuses" crowd that uses this to enrich themselves while distracting and dividing us.

Terrorism would simply vanish without the takers spreading their misery and imposing their will, people with a future and a purpose don't blow themselves up just to take a few of the bastards with them. People do not volunteer to die to make somebody else rich when they are not threatened with deprivation.

It's all so pointless...

[americanstranger]

148. If there wasn't an audience for it, it wouldn't exist.

The owners and networks are selling a product, and there is a willing audience for it.

And I'm not quite sure how the owner of a sports club is working to 'distract and divide us.' Are you saying that the NFL (or NBA or MLB or any other organized sport) causes terrorism?

This country is about choice, and some people choose to buy football tickets. When you start talking about taking people's disposable income and mandating that they spend it on something non-discretionary, then you've lost me.

- as

[Greyhound]

158. Not exactly, I'm saying that the aforementioned leagues are an important

part of a system that creates an artificial scarcity in order to force the majority of the people to work for the exclusive benefit of the creators of that system.

As I stated in the very first line of my reply, it is not the sport nor the ritual that is the obscenity, it is the system of organized theft that extracts far more resources from the fans than they can afford to pay. It is this theft of communal resources that causes the problems that the OP points out as an obscenity.

Entertainment is vital to a society's well being and everyone engages in or consumes it. It is the false, or enforced, scarcity and disproportionate price charged for it that is obscene.

Take the NFL for example, what justification is there for extracting billions of dollars from the citizens and communities in order for 32 teams to play a game for less than half the year? The league has become as large and as popular as it is because of the American God, television. Television grew to worshipful status by using, broadcasting, over the airwaves that belong to the public, for which they pay nothing. So we have a system where "owners" use a communal resource as their sole asset to extract hundreds of billions of dollars from that community and pay nothing for it.

Meanwhile those same communities lack the resources (hundreds of billions of dollars) to educate their children, build and maintain their infrastructure, care for their sick, and house their poor. That is obscene.

[JCMach1]

147. two letters... O and J

[treestar]

153. Yes! And then the claims that "we are at war" as if we are suffering

or really subjected to any danger!

:banghead:

Whenever the right wingers start on that "we are at war" shit, I see red! They are NOT at war! The people of Iraq are at war.

Or they go on about the troops being "in harm's way" as if they can do no harm. Admit it, U.S. soldiers are also there to do harm - kill other people - as the right wingers snidely remind us if we say anything aobut any of the killings over there - they'll go, it's a war, stupid, that's what they are there for.

As long as it's not them. And they make me even sicker when it is them, when they take the death of their loved ones as a honorable thing and accept the loss publicly and laud the deceased as protecting us all, when they still get to be alive. I remember those ugly stories about a WWII widow attacking protestors for daring to protest a war, because of her husband who allegedly died in WWII.

At the time of Gulf War I, it was positively sickening to see how happy and excited people were about being at war. I swear some people thought it was fun.

[AuntPatsy]

164. I find it obscene and I find it obscene that so many on this thread

failed to actually take the time to read your op since in no way does it say you cannot find a way to enjoy what life you have.

All of it makes me sad and I am sorry so many on this thread were so insensitive to such a thought provoking and much needed issue to think about.

[Truthiness Inspector]

169. Happiness is obscene

Nobody anywhere should ever laugh, smell the roses, enjoy life because horrible things are happening the world over.

God that sounds like a fun way to live.