I'm going to make this breastfeeding issue really easy

[mudesi]

If a woman wants to cover up when breastfeeding her baby, fine.

If a woman does not want to cover up when breastfeeding her baby, fine.

If anyone else has a problem with either, that is their problem, not the nursing woman's.

You don't like the sight of a woman feeding her child? Go seek professional help.

That was easy!

[northzax]

1. and in exchange

this will only be done in places where adults eating is considered socially acceptable, deal?

[redqueen]

You mean in the restroom?

*snicker*

[northzax]

if you want to eat in the bathroom

you go right ahead.

[redqueen]

29. It was a joke. Hence the "*snicker*" part.

You know, how breastfeeding-phobic people are always saying that mothers should take babies in the bathroom to eat.

Jokes are ALWAYS funnier when you have to explain them :P

[mudesi]

4. No

Children need to eat when children need to eat. No deal.

[northzax]

15. say you are in a place that says "no food or drink"

does that apply?

[gollygee]

77. Babies are usually exempt from that

you'll see babies drinking from bottles in shops and other places that say "no food and drink". So no.

Legally, in most states anyway, public breastfeeding is protected anywhere it is legal for a woman and a child to be. If it's legal to be in those places, it's legal to breastfeed there.

[LeftyMom]

129. Of course not.

Those rules generally exempt anybody who has a medical issue that requires very frequent eating. As infancy is one of those conditions, and breastmilk doesn't leave crumbs, draw ants or otherwise create an inconvenience for anyone, there's no reason a baby shouldn't be fed anywhere mother and child are allowed to be.

[HockeyMom]

10. I nursed my daughter anywhere and everywhere

23 years ago, which is why I was able to take her with me everywhere I went.

[gollygee]

12. No, but it will only be done where babies having bottles is socially acceptable

babies can't wait for food the way adults can.

[northzax]

25. that's reasonable

i can deal with that.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

75. Where is a place where adults eating is ...

*not* socially acceptable?

[northzax]

92. the bus

no food or drink allowed. an operating room. a public swimming pool. pretty much anywhere that it says 'no food or drink"

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

126. I, for one...

am tired of all these mothers nursing while I'm trying to have surgery.

[northzax]

166. hey, the point was nursing anywhere

technically, it is illegal to tell an ER doctor that she can't nurse in the theater. that's the point. anywhere, anytime.

[Deja Q]

113. Or peeing, or barfing, or belching, or pooing, or touching... or another adult B-feeding the woman

Let's do EVERYTHING out in the open; other people be damned!!!

:crazy:

[mudesi]

143. Another ridiculously fallacious analogy

What is it about a woman feeding a baby that makes people equate it with vomiting, burping, defecating, or sexual contact in public?

This is why I say people disgusted by breast feeding need to see a psychiatrist for some obvious emotional issues.

[Deep13]

2. Not liking something necessitates professional help?

I didn't like Titanic. I must need professional help.

[redqueen]

6. Not all things are equal!

Wow... things are REALLY bad around here.

[Deep13]

32. My point, to the extent there is one, is that liking or not liking something...

...is not necessarily a moral value judgment. I don't like jazz. I don't think it is crap or anything. I don't think people who like it have bad taste. I certainly don't think it should be restricted and I don't give people a hard time about it.

I just found it odd that someone else's liking or not liking breat-feeding would be viewed as a problem needing a solution and that the automatic solution is reprogramming the bystander's perception. Sometimes we just have to live with people's disapproval.

[redqueen]

37. Anyone is free to disapprove all they want... just don't expect mom to give a shit.

:hi:

[Deep13]

41. Precisely. Why should she give a shit?

For the record, I was not expressing disapproval myself.

[MrCoffee]

11. admitting you have a problem is the first step, Deep13

[Deep13]

Really, like what? nt

[MrCoffee]

43. "I didn't like Titanic."

There's help for you out there. It's gonna be ok.

[NV Whino]

108. I'm sure there's a 12 step program available

Sign me up while you're at it.

[Nederland]

3. How about this?

If a couple wants to have sex in private, fine.

If a couple wants to have sex in public, fine.

If anyone else has a problem with either, that is their problem, not the couple's.

You don't like the sight of couples having sex? Go seek professional help.

[mudesi]

8. Public sex = Feeding an infant

:eyes:

[redqueen]

9. A baby nursing is analogous to people having sex?

Wow...

[Squatch]

13. Of course it is...

to a person who equates all that makes him uncomfortable as being obscene.

[MrCoffee]

16. well duh. boobies are just playthings for men.

didn't you get the memo?

[William769]

46. NOT ALL MEN!

Yuk. :puke:

[redqueen]

47. Oh my... that's just lovely!

:puke: for you, too, buddy!

[William769]

51. Being a Gay man boobs do absolutely nothing for me.

:)

[redqueen]

54. "Do nothing" is nowhere near something that leads you to vomit.

That's just offensive.

[William769]

59. I'm sure you will get over it.

[redqueen]

61. I was never under it.

I just thought the comment was insulting and disgusting and deserved to be pointed out as such.

:hi:

[JuniperLea]

110. Fine... but don't expect the poster to give a crap :)

:hi:

[redqueen]

111. No worries... learned that long ago!

:hi:

[Squatch]

48. Yeah...I'm more of an ass and legs man, myself.

[Nederland]

19. No

But why shouldn't public sex be a right?

[redqueen]

23. Do you think a hungry baby is analogous to a person who wants to have sex?

Why or why not?

(Jesus fucking tapdancing christ this shit is stupid.)

[Nederland]

28. No (nt)

[redqueen]

31. No what?

No you don't want to flesh out your analogy a little further, and find out how it's unbelievably silly?

[Nederland]

36. No

The two are not analogous.

[redqueen]

42. So then you acknowledge it's a pointless exercise...

to try to argue that placing limits on a mother feeding her child is somehow as logical as placing limits on where people can have sex?

[Nederland]

67. No

I would say that there is nothing wrong with passing laws that are based upon nothing more than public consensus on an issue. The only reason public sex is illegal is because people don't want to see it happening. Same for breastfeeding, although the social consensus on that issue is slowly changing. At some point in time we might actually see the consensus on public sex change as well. Who knows...

[redqueen]

69. I think the consensus has changed.

It's just taking the noise machine a while to catch up with the rest of us. :)

[MrCoffee]

53. if i could recommend a parenthetical statement, i'd K&R you

[gollygee]

27. Why should it be?

You don't see a difference between feeding a baby and having sex? Why should one's legality be tied to the other?

[Nederland]

34. Here is the question

Why is public exposure of a person's body ok in one case, but not in the other?

[redqueen]

38. Necessity. n/t

[Nederland]

40. Necessity?

Sex is a necessity for the survival of the species...

[redqueen]

45. Adults don't need to have sex RIGHT NOW.

Babies need to be fed RIGHT NOT.

Clearer?

[Nederland]

52. Not really

My daughter never had a problem waiting a few minutes for food...

[redqueen]

58. A few minutes?

So you're suggesting what... going where from a restaurant? Out to a car? Into a bathroom?

[MrCoffee]

60. you can't wait a few minutes for sex?

[Nederland]

70. The two are not analogous (nt)

[MrCoffee]

81. no, public sex and breastfeeding are not analogous.

[gollygee]

63. And policy about all children should be based upon your daughter because . . .?

[Nederland]

84. It shouldn't be

Policy should be defined by social consensus...

[gollygee]

87. Policy is defined in part by that

and the general consensus is that public breastfeeding is OK. Most people are OK with it. There was a study I read about a while ago where a solid majority were OK with public breastfeeding. The fact that legislators are consistently supporting public breastfeeding, and they represent their constituents, backs that up.

Policy is also partially defined by balancing need and taboos.

[Nederland]

95. Link?

I was under the impression that most people were not OK with it...

And that is my larger point. Whether or not public breastfeeding or public sex or public anything like that is legal or illegal is determined by public consensus, not the opinion of a single individual.

[gollygee]

118. Law is based only partly on public consensus

There has to be a balance. Babies need to eat immediately more than people need to have sex immediately. That's part of it too.

Babies and mothers have the right to live in society and be out in public. Babies have the right to eat when they need to. Where those two rights cross is where the right to breastfeed in public comes in. If babies can't breastfeed in public, then either breastfeeding mothers have to live apart from society for some period of time, or babies have to wait to eat. Neither of those is a bigger issue than some people's hang-ups about breasts.

Also, our government has policy statements about the importance of breastfeeding (surgeon general, CDC, etc.) and therefore our government is going to make it easier to breastfeed. That's part of what goes into the law too. If our government decides it's in society's best interest for more babies to be breastfed, our government will make laws that support breastfeeding.

And I read this in a magazine, not online, but I don't remember which magazine. A parenting magazine I'd have to guess, based on the topic and based on what magazines I generally read. It wasn't 90% or anything, it was more like 70%.

[Nederland]

127. Agreed

I'm of the opinion that if a community wants to ban public breast feeding that's fine, but they then have an obligation to provide private areas where women can breastfeed their children when necessary. This is especially true if the govenrnment is going to say that breastfeeding is best for the child...

[gollygee]

141. I wonder what that would cost - taxes would go up for sure

A little breastfeeding lounge in every park, every bus and subway and every other kind of public transportation, every restaurant, every few blocks in every city, etc.

OR, people could just not look if it bothers them. FREE! Yay!

[Maine-ah]

156. here's your link

In a 2003 national survey for the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 48 percent of 3,976 respondents said they were comfortable with moms nursing in public; 30 percent weren’t. The rest were undecided.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16773617/

[tblue37]

164. I remember when social consensus said that a White girl and

a Black boy should not date, and that to see them kiss or hold hands was a justification for killing at least one of them.

Social consensus is often, as Dickens' Mr. Micawber might say, "a ass."

[uppityperson]

135. Here is a question for you. Why is public exposure of any part of a person's body ok in 1 case, but

not always. Shouldn't we all be wearing burqas then? I think noses are bad, all noses need to be covered. I think elbows are erotic so cover them also.

[AlCzervik]

17. no you aren't actually equating breastfeeding a baby to public sex, i know you aren't

doing that.

[Nederland]

26. Exactly

What I am asking is why is public sex illegal?

[Toucano]

35. Okay. Maybe you should start a new thread.

Maybe?

I think public sex is illegal because society has a consensus that is should be illegal.

There is no consensus on nursing in public, hence the debate.

[Nederland]

57. Now we are getting somewhere

Would you concede that if there was a consensus on public breastfeeding, making it illegal would be ok?

[mudesi]

68. Children need to eat when children need to eat

Period. Your premise is utterly devoid of substance.

[Toucano]

82. It would be ridiculous, but if that's what the people want...

A society governs socially acceptable behavior in a number of ways.

Legislation isn't the only option.

The acceptability of nursing in public is disputed and and it's acceptability may depend on societal subsets. Society can work these little things out people would stop trying to resort to legislation to solve every discomfort they experience.

Public sex, as far as I know, is fairly universally rejected as unacceptable in contemporary American society. Maybe some day...LOL!

[AlCzervik]

50. sex is a want, food is a need.

[HereSince1628]

73. That could depend on the sexual connotation of "eating" and "swallowing"

Just sayin...

[AlCzervik]

76. ok, i'm done.

[HereSince1628]

80. Sorry, ever since the meaning of "is" parsings around "sex "must be

considered by pushing them to new extremes.

[gollygee]

22. How about this?

If a person wants to stand up in private, fine.

If a person wants to stand up in public, fine.

If anyone else has a problem with either, that is their problem, not the person's.

You don't like the sight of a person standing up? Go seek professional help.


Simply making the sentences similar doesn't make the issues parallel.

[Nederland]

30. Exactly

So the question is, why is public sex illegal?

[gollygee]

62. Our taboo about public sex is more important than people's need to have sex at any given moment

but a baby's need to eat at any given moment is more important than the taboo (about which there is no consensus anyway) against public breastfeeding.

The taboo against public sex is much greater and has a much larger consensus than the taboo against breastfeeding.

A baby can't wait when he/she needs to eat (without a tantrum anyway) while adults can be expected to wait to have sex.

[Toucano]

24. Sorry. That's weak. n/t

[midlife_mo_Jo]

44. Sex and nursing are not equivalent

Even if I do believe that women don't have to display their breasts to breastfeed.

If she pulls up her shirt instead of unbuttoning it to display her breast., she can easily nurse without drawing attention.

[Zodiak]

65. lol...it'always the same people n/t

[WilliamPitt]

74. You really have a thing about breasts, don't you.

They're used for more things than filling out dresslines and making bedtime more fun.

They feed children.

And they're not there for you alone...or at all.

[Nederland]

90. Read post 67

I think you'll see that's not my point...

[OzarkDem]

88. You do understand, don't you

that people who equate breast feeding with sex have a psychological problem. Seriously, they should seek treatment.

[Nederland]

97. Read the rest of the sub-thread

In particular, post 67. I think that will clear some things up for you...

[kdmorris]

94. How the hell does breastfeeding = public sex??

You can barely even see anything when a mother is breastfeeding, even if you don't suffocate your child with a blanket. No one's saying that a mother should be able to strip completely naked and feed her baby.

You really do need help.

[Nederland]

98. It doesn't

Read post 67.

[kdmorris]

114. I did.

But it's been covered already. Sex is not something that human beings must have right now. Food for an infant is a need.

While I'm glad that your daughter was able to "wait a few minutes for food", I don't think it's reasonable to expect a baby to wait hours for food, if you are (for example) doing school shopping for your older child. So, you are, I guess advocating that babies should stay at home with their mothers rather than go anywhere? Or do you feel it's more appropriate to have the mother be forced to sit on a toilet to feed her hungry child.

I'm sorry, but you don't have a case here.

[Nederland]

125. No

Actually I'm of the opinion that if a community wants to ban public breast feeding that's fine, but they then have an obligation to provide private areas where women can breastfeed their children when necessary.

[kdmorris]

151. Then we disagree

And that's fine. But I just don't think it's right to send a woman who is feeding her baby out of the room, in seclusion, because she chose to breast feed instead of giving her baby a bottle. Unless you want everyone feeding their baby, bottle or breast, to be sent out.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

162. That's Just A TADDDDDDD Of A Flawed Analogy, No?

C'mon now. You can't seriously be putting forth that what you are saying is of equivalence to the OP. C'mon now. Seriously.

[William769]

5. I don't know what spurred this on, but I agree with you 100%. NT

[MrCoffee]

7. spot on

and i can say that, because i'm a man.

[thereismore]

14. I agree. nt

[BrklynLib at work]

18. Makes sense to me.

:thumbsup:

[truebrit71]

20. I agree....Some folks just need to get the fuck over themselves already...

:eyes:

[bryant69]

21. That's a pretty convienent solution.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Squatch]

33. Just so we're all clear as to what we're talking about, here:

[Toucano]

39. OMG! I'm damaged for life now!

Thanks a lot!

[Squatch]

56. The pleasure was all mine.

But, damn...that kid is going to work, isn't it? Eyes open, focused, firm latching-on.

Anybody who finds ANYTHING sexually arousing/perverse with a mother breastfeeding needs to seek some mental help, stat!

[Kingshakabobo]

131. Hey! That just turned me straight!!!!!! Thanks a bunch....

[TahitiNut]

157. There's a big difference between sensual and sexual.

BIG difference. BIG.

[redqueen]

49. OMG A BREAST!

:puke:

[OzarkDem]

96. Someone put it in their sig line, pls.

Maybe by repeated exposure to a diagram of a natural, nonsexual act, some DU'ers will become conditioned to accept it.

[mudesi]

116. I say make it an avatar! (nm)

[Maine-ah]

158. you know I did this months ago from the last session of

bf'ing in public threads. I just decided to keep it. Yes, that is me and my daughter.

[depakid]

55. That's about the long and short of it

Although since rationality in this country has taken a long and perhaps a permanent leave of absence in America, it might be wise for women to exercise some caution and "wear their head scarves."

[mudesi]

64. What gets me is the underlying misogyny in all this

Do people like Bill Maher even realize how misogynistic it is to be repulsed by the sight of a woman feeding an infant because it may expose her breast? It's the implication that breasts are solely sex objects to be displayed for the pleasure of men that bothers me the most. How dare you feed your child! We don't want mothers, we want whores!

[redqueen]

71. ...

:thumbsup:

[depakid]

78. Maher's misogyny is well known

The guy obviously has psychological issues- and yet I think they merely underscore the issues that many other men AND women have "learned" (and get reinforced for) in a dysfunctional society with a sex obsession on the one hand- and a puritanical streak on the other.

For example:

"Readers of a US parenting magazine are crying foul over the publication's latest cover depicting a woman breastfeeding, with some calling the photo offensive and disgusting.

"I was SHOCKED (original writers' emphasis) to see a giant breast on the cover of your magazine," one woman from Kansas wrote in reaction to the picture in Babytalk, a free magazine that caters to young mothers. "I was offended and it made my husband very uncomfortable when I left the magazine on the coffee table."

Her reaction was part of some 5,000 letters the magazine has received in response to a poll to gage reader sentiment about Babytalk's August cover photo, which shows a baby nursing.

Several readers said they were "embarrassed" or "offended" by the Babytalk photo and one woman from Nevada said she "immediately turned the magazine face down" when she saw the photo.

"Gross, I am sick of seeing a baby attached to a boob," the mother of a four-month-old said.

Another reader said she was "horrified" when she received the magazine and hoped that her husband hadn't laid eyes on it.

"I had to rip off the cover since I didn't want it laying around the house," she said.

A national television program also ran a segment on the controversy, interviewing several people in New York who expressed disgust over the cover photo.

The object of their derision:

[phylny]

134. Look at that baby, looking up at Mommy. "Thanks, Mom, for the snack!"

If I could nurse my GRANDKIDS, dammit, I would (not a grandma yet, but you know what I mean.) I still have dreams about nursing my babies. It was a most wonderful part of having children.

"Why women don't nurse longer." Gee, I wonder.... <---- "SHOCKED, HORRIFIED, GROSS, BOOB, OFFENSIVE, DISGUSTING, EMBARRASSED."

And all that baby is thinking is, "This is great! It fills my tummy, quenches my thirst, gives me skin-to-skin contact, which I really need, it helps me focus on my mom's face, it satisfies my need to suck. No artificial ANYTHING, no landfill waste, and I don't have to wait for the microwave!"

All that's missing is the baby's finger in mom's mouth. :)

[cgrindley]

79. That's a bit of a stretch

If men also nursed infants, I'm sure that the same people would object to that, too. It's just that the idea of a living body exuding, excreting, producing some viscous liquid, one that is sucked out... it actually is fairly disgusting. Perhaps the reason that it's particularly vile is because it's particularly natural. People hate to be reminded that they are biological. Personally, I agree. Our biological nature is horrific. I cannot stand our bodies as far as natural things are concerned. I like boobies because they're cool looking, and peacefully nursing infants are pleasant things, but that's about as far as it goes.

[Withywindle]

91. I'm kinda with you on that.

Breastfeeding...meh. It's not something I get worked up about either way. But as woman with no kids, whatever squick I have about it has to do with the bodily fluids thing, nothing to do with seeing naked breasts or whatever. It IS a little icky in that regard.

But it's certainly not anywhere near as disgusting as some guy hawking up a giant loogy on the sidewalk, which happens all the time around here. I think THAT should be a misdemeanor, and certainly much more deeply socially frowned on than a mom nursing. :puke:

[DemBones DemBones]

99. You and Bill Maher would get along well.

But you both need therapy for thinking breast feeding is disgusting.

[TheDoorbellRang]

161. Monk? Is that you?

:rofl:

[MrCoffee]

66. seriously. if women would just breastfeed UNDER the burka, problem solved

[cgrindley]

72. I don't like to watch anyone eat

most people have terrible table manners and should only eat at home. I certainly don't mind the sight of a nursing baby, but a baby who is spitting up is fucking disgusting.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

85. Good thing you were never a baby..

I'm sure you would never have done anything "fucking disgusting".

[cgrindley]

173. That totally doesn't follow

I have three kids and another on the way. I was once a child. I did all kinds of disgusting things, as did my children. There's no reason for them to do so in public. Kids are gross.

If you could guarantee a peacefully nursing infant, all coos and gurgles but with NO fucking disgusting spitting up, I'd march for breastfeeding rights in a heartbeat, but babies are virtual fountains of barf. It's gross. Like when they load their diapers up in public. Jesus wept. I wouldn't get away with behavior like that in public.... why the hell should they?

[CT_Progressive]

83. So, what you're asking for is a change in the public nudity laws.

Isn't that fairly easy to articulate and ask our representatives to change for us?

[orleans]

86. i think a big part of this argument (not here, but in the general public)

has to do with modesty

if memory serves correctly there is a way to keep your shirt over the top half of your breast while your baby nurses, and the nursing baby covers the rest of the lower half of the breast. your arm, propping up the baby's head covers the side of the breast. the act of breastfeeding can be subtle and discreet.

and it is also a bonding/quiet time for mother and baby. at least it was for me.

also, from what i can remember, my gay male friends appreciated the fact that i would excuse myself and go into a bedroom to breastfeed my daughter. i was told straight out that they didn't want to "see it". okay. i understand. i tried being sensitive to all concerned. i didn't sit on the couch in front of them with my shirt up over my head and tell them to grow up or get over it. (of course i don't recall ever putting my shirt over my head while breastfeeding--i was just saying that to make the point that i think some women are more in-your-face about this issue)

[nini]

89. What I'd like to know is why both sides of this argument can't bend a little for the other side

Jesus Christ on a crutch - wtf is wrong with us a society where we can't freaking take into account the views of others and take it into consideration??? I MEAN BOTH SIDES OF THIS ISSUE TOO!

yes I think a woman should be able to breastfeed where and when she wants and in any way she chooses, and that right should NEVER be taken away because of someone who is uncomfortable because of it. HOWEVER, I also think if some upright fart who doesn't want their 4 year old to see a full breast or whatever reason breastfeeding freaks them out, should be given an ounce of consideration for their views - even if we think they're stupid.

Both sides of this issue think they are morally superior and right, and neither want to consider the other's different views. A little give and take wouldn't hurt either side IMHO.

[Mountainman]

102. The law in CA is that a woman can breast feed where ever she wants

There is no legal reason why we need to consider someone's view that the law should be other wise.

If a person has a problem with breast feeding it is their problem not society's so says the law.

[nini]

106. I never mentioned the law.. I'm talking about considering others' opinions

even if we disagree with them.


That is all.

[Mountainman]

119. I don't get it. If someone is breast feeding and someone else doen't like it

what are we to do? The person breastfeeding is within her rights.

[nini]

120. You don't HAVE to do anytthing differently

you continue to breastfeed your child.


My only point on this issue is if both sides would chill out just a bit and recognize not everyone agrees with everyone else's comfort level - this wouldn't be such flamefest issue.

Be aware others around you may be uptight morans. Turn to the side a bit, use a receiving blanket etc.. It never killed any of the women I know when they breastfed in public to make a minumal effort to do these things. It actually made the experience much more calm for the baby since the mother isn't reacting to some neanderthal having a fit around her.

IF a woman does not want to do this it is her right and should not be denied - but that's not my point.

[kdmorris]

130. It's an emotional issue

I agree with your point. When I was breastfeeding my daughters, I did make an effort to keep covered as much as possible without suffocating the baby. Usually, it was in the food court of the mall, where my older children were also eating. I pulled my shirt up under a blanket, but then moved the blanket down to uncover the baby's head once she latched on. There was really no way to see any of my breast, as my shirt covered the top of my breast, the baby covered the middle and my arm covered the outside.

Sometimes, that just didn't matter to people. They would flip out anyway, even though nothing was exposed. Sometimes, people would just stare at your baby's head with a sour look and other times, people would point and whisper. A few people would mention that it was disgusting, but I usually tried to ignore them. They couldn't MAKE me leave, so I would just stay there. A couple of times, things did get scary enough that it was easier to just go in the bathroom. Anyone who has ever tried to squeeze into a toilet stall holding a nursing infant with two children and their happy meals, plus diaper bag, a snowsuit and three winter coats in tow knows that's total bullshit. So, I have emotional reactions to people saying *I* need to be the one to "give a little". *I* did, but sometimes, it just didn't matter, anyway.

[nini]

137. I did say BOTH sides need to chill a bit

Not just the side of the nursing mother. ;-)

You did the right thing for the comfort of you and your child, if only the morans had given you the same consideration this wouldn't be a major issue.

I doubt I will live long enough to see all of humanity act like rational adults.

[kdmorris]

147. I'm almost certain of it

Some days I think we are going completely backwards on the 'rational' scale.

Edited to add: I didn't mean you said *I* needed to chill a bit. Just that I get a little nuts about it sometimes, and feel a bit put upon when people in the public say it, kind of want to scream at them "*I* did", which makes me look pretty irrational. What you said was pretty fair and I agree with it. This particular item shouldn't generate this much nuttiness. I was just kind of saying "This is how I became nuts".

:beer:

[nini]

160. I knew what you meant

:-)

I completely agree on us going backwards too. I've got some Samoan friends and they don't think twice about nursing in front of everyone - no one bats an eye - that's how it should be but we're just not exposed to the same attitudes regarding this. That's my point we have to respect each others norms a bit especially when it comes to a natural process between a mother and child.

thanks



:toast:

[Maine-ah]

159. it's the same for all states

http://www.007b.com/breastfeeding_public.php

Basically breastfeeding in public IS legal in the United States, though sometimes people simply don't know it and therefore might complain about it. This means you can nurse your baby anywhere that you are allowed to be with the baby. About 20 states have additionally passed a law that explicitly states that fact. Note: These laws exist to clarify the legality of breastfeeding. If a state does not have such a clarifying law, breastfeeding in public is still legal. See A Current Summary of Breastfeeding Legislation in the U.S. , or 50 States Summary of Breastfeeding Laws for more details.

[saracat]

103. Exactly! Well said!

[mudesi]

112. Because one side has a psychological problem

We don't accommodate obsessive compulsive germophobes by wiping door knobs with sani-wipes after we touch them, either. If you can't stand the sight of a woman breastfeeding, that is not the woman's problem, period. Deal with it.

[nini]

117. They are just as adamant that it's our problem too

I agree with you, but I just think the rigidity of BOTH sides is unnecessary.

[Lautremont]

93. Why is this an issue?

Having always taken the OP's thesis for granted, naif that I am, I find I'm honestly surprised to discover there are people opposed to breast feeding in public.

[saracat]

100. So anyone that thinks Mom should cover up or doesn't want to

watch breast feeding while out for a special occasion needs mental help? You don't allow for any other opinion other than that ?

[daninthemoon]

101. Tell ya what. I'm all for public breast feeding, public sex, and

public nudity. What I can't stand is parents who bring a child in public who is too young, and is going to cause a disturbance. An argument in this thread mentions that the baby can't wait to be fed. That sounds to me like if the baby doesn't get fed right then, it's going to start hollerin. There are few things I find as rude as people who subject the rest of us to a screaming baby. Keep the baby home until it's old enough not to cause these disturbances. Isn't that fair?

[Lars39]

105. So the mother shouldn't go anywhere because you don't like a baby

crying or screaming? Grow up.

[daninthemoon]

121. When my kids were babies, we took them to baby approprate

places. Not restaurants. As they get older, you can take them more places. Here's another clue: the baby doesn't want to be at that restaurant, either. Restaurants are not baby places.

[MissB]

109. Uh, no.

In general, babies need to be fed every two to three hours. More often - like constantly - if the baby is going through one of its many growth spurts.

If a baby is colicky, then keeping him/her at home does nothing for the mother's/father's sanity. Some kids avoid the whole colic issue entirely, some go through it every day for months straight. It isn't pleasant for anyone, but I can assure you that keeping the baby locked indoors isn't going to do a damned thing to cure the colic.

Perhaps a better way to phrase your statement would be: Parents with fussy babies should attend to them asap in order to minimize disturbing other patrons in whatever venue they're in. If the fussy baby continues to fuss, then one or both of the parents should remove the baby from the area as soon as humanly possible.

[daninthemoon]

122. That's a big "if" that too many parents don't seem to care about

these days. If the parent removes or otherwise attends to the child, great, no harm no foul. Too many want to think that just because they have the cutest baby in history, the rest of us must have some problem if we don't want our quiet restaurant meal ruined. When our kids were babies, we left them with sitters when we wanted to go out. Or we stayed home, or we went someplace baby appropriate.

[MrCoffee]

115. next time my kid starts screaming, i'll stuff a sock in his mouth just for you.

[daninthemoon]

123. Thanks, appreciate it. Or just don't bring the baby to a restaurant

that he doesn't want to be at anyway.

[MUSTANG_2004]

124. No, that's a bad idea.

I'm all for taking kids to "kid-appropriate" places, but to say never take a baby out until it is past the age where it cries is ridiculous. Especially when most babies can be quieted quickly by nursing.

[daninthemoon]

128. If you have a quiet baby, or a toddler that can sit still, and the KID

wants to be there, absolutely fine and dandy. If it's a baby that will be fussing the whole time because it does not want to be there, or a toddler that can't/won't keep from running around or climbing over the seat and bothering others, then don't bring it to a restaurant. Too many parents let their kids run wild in wholly inappropriate places, without any thought to the other patrons who are not bothering anyone. Those are the parents I'm addressing.

[DemBones DemBones]

104. If only Mrs. Maher had breastfed young Billy,

or not weaned him too early, he wouldn't be such a misogynistic wanker.

[rug]

107. Only a Sith speaks in absolutes.

[MUSTANG_2004]

136. Isn't that statement an absolute? /nt

[krabigirl]

132. Also

if a woman is not able to breastfeed, it's not appropriate to harrass her in the name of your cause. (yeah, I've seen this happen, and it's sad. :( (

[nini]

139. yep.. that's a very valid point

I couldn't breastfeed my son because of an infection after a C-section. You would have thought I was the anti-Christ by the breast-feeding elite. :eyes:

[StrongBad]

133. I'm all for anything that causes a baby to STFU in public

If that requires suckling on a breast, so be it!

[Zookeeper]

170. Yes. The folks who complain about public breastfeeding...

would be the first ones to complain about a screaming, hungry baby getting on their delicate nerves.

It's kind of a no-win situation for parents.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

138. It's legal!!!!

[Blashyrkh]

140. I like it. This principle should be applied across the board.

Like the fascists who want me to stop saying "pussy" because it's "offensive" to "women". Who the fuck is "women" anyway? Be offended on your own behalf, not someone else's.

It's perfect. You don't like me? YOUR problem. If more people lived like this, the world would be a nicer, quieter place. And clearly, with far more exposed boobs. Awesome.

[WinkyDink]

142. Hey--if a man looks like Beckham, he can sit naked in any restaurant I'm in!

Naked IS natural, right, OP?
;)

[Katherine Brengle]

144. I'd go a bit further and say that the offended individual's attitude stems from

larger anti-woman social attitudes, but you've done pretty well here.

[JerseygirlCT]

145. That about covers it! nt

[BlooInBloo]

146. As long as we're talking about boobies, I'm happy. Rock on!

[daninthemoon]

149. Here's a question : How are the breast feeding mothers likely

to react if a bunch of guys, being guys, start ogling and commenting on the exposed breast? Just wonderin.

[BlooInBloo]

150. Quite badly to such jackasses, I would imagine, why?

[daninthemoon]

152. Jus wonderin. Is it fair? Is it a double standard? I'm all for

breast feeding. All my kids were breast fed. Not necessarily makin a point. Just occured to me that it could make for an ugly scene.

[BlooInBloo]

153. It's obviously the others who need to get their problem taken care of, not mom...

.... People make similar "arguments" against interracial dating - "what if the people around them don't react well to it - won't that cause problems?".

The answer to such idiocy is the same in both cases.

[daninthemoon]

155. Sooo, the daters are topless?

[kdmorris]

165. If "all your kids were breastfed"

HOW can you say the mother is "topless". Maybe at home, but no nursing mother takes her top off to nurse in public. In fact, there's usually not much to see. I guess your wife either stopped nursing at six weeks or SHE can tell you that people act like Neanderthals sometimes even when you cover up everything with a blanket. Actually, Neanderthals probably thought nothing of it, since there were no bottles back then. So, I guess people just act like asses. You're telling me that your wife went to the bathroom to nurse your children all the time? And you were fine with that?

You aren't even making any sense, and using hyperbole to make some point that I'm not aware of.

[daninthemoon]

168. Just don't see any connection at all between interracial dating

and breast feeding. That's also hyperbole, or straw man, or something. You're right though, I don't really have a point to make about this. Can't quite understand what the big issue is. We have a criminal administration waging a devestating war in Iraq and erasing the Constitution, massive federal debt, poisonous imports from outsourced jobs, global warming, dwindling oil supplies, serious civil rights issues in places like Jena, housing/mortage bubble busting, under-reported unemployment, Katrina, and a whole kajillion other things that completely overshadow the issues raised in this thread.

[kdmorris]

171. Well, we absolutely agree about that then!!! n/t

[gollygee]

154. Is what fair?

Is it fair that men think they're just "being guys" if they harass random women? No, that isn't fair.

[Skittles]

148. pretty much my take on it

yup

[ryanus]

163. who has a problem with public breastfeeding?

Who? Where are they?

[ordinaryaveragegirl]

167. Great post!!!

I nursed my 3 kids wherever, whenever. I did it because #1, it was healthier, and #2, Big Pharma makes enough money without hawking baby formula! The one time I got approached was in a shopping mall, by some ignorant asshole who asked me why I wouldn't "take (my) kid in the bathroom to do that." I replied: "Well, do YOU eat in a public bathroom? I sure wouldn't!" He shut up really quick LOL. As long as someone's discreet and not flashing everyone, there's no problem IMHO. Babies have to eat. And it's the law, in most states, that a mother can publicly breastfeed her child.

[SnowGoose]

169. On comparisons between breastfeeding and public sex.

I'm not saying anyone should agree with me, but here's what I reckon, for whatever that's worth.

The reason public sex (or urination) seems a reasonable comparison to make is as follows: the discussion of socially appropriate breastfeeding practices is just one specific instance of general culture-bound norms. From what I've seen, people seem inclined to describe their own opinion (and that's what it is) as though it was somehow based in biological reality or "common sense".

It's not. Your opinion of what is socially appropriate is *learned*. That includes your opinion of public sex, of public urination, of whether women (or men) should keep a covering on their head, and on and on. When a comparison is made between something you're comfortable with (say public breastfeeding), and something you're not comfortable with (say public urination or public sex), it's easy to become offended ("breastfeeding is not dirty (or perverse), how dare you compare it with urination (dirty) or public sex (the other kind of dirty)? It's offensive!").

But I would hope people could see that neither sex nor urination nor uncovered heads are inherently immoral or dirty (no I don't drink my pee, but there are yogis that do ~ unnless you've got a UTI, your urine is sterile). Different cultures obviously have different traditions, and a muslim woman, or a male sikh might feel raped to have their head covering removed in public, even though it wouldn't bother me at all. I'm not right or wrong, and neither are they. Get this - while most americans think of medieval europe as super inhibited (sexually), the fact is that in many locations it was common for the entire family to sleep in one large bed, and yes, that's where copulation occurred, with their kids right there in the bed with mom and dad. Here and now, that would land you in prison - but it's not biologically right or wrong, even though most modern americans would be deeply uncomfortable admitting that, because it's just icky, ok?).

So it seems to me that meaningful communication is much less likely when one side is making a biological argument, and the other side is making a cultural argument. Like science and religion, they have different areas where they are meaningful, but just don't work if they try to reach outside that area of applicability, and you're not going to convince the other person, because you're not even having the same conversation.

It would behoove us to consider when we're making a such biological argument (which it seems to me one could use to make a reasonable case in favor of public breastfeeding), and when we're making cultural arguments (and let's face it, we all bear the marks of our own cultural indoctrination - hell, I like my segregated bathrooms at least as well as you do).

Society is just a club, and we can make the rules whatever we want them to be ~ but let's not kid ourselves into thinking that what we're comfortable with is somehow less arbitrary and subjective than what the other person is comfortable with. If you think public breastfeeding is no problem but think full public nudity by choice is somehow "inherently", "obviously" or "biologically" different, you are kidding yourself in just such a manner. No one can force you to sit back and challenge your own attitudes, but you might be serving your own best interests as a continually learning and growing human being, to just take a moment sometime and think about the boundaries of your own comfort zone, how you came to draw the boundaries there, and then to imagine how someone might draw them differently with a different life experience than yours. If you have never tried to believe (I mean really internalize, not just for the purpose of finding fault with the other) something you do not currently believe, it can be deeply enlightening.

And if you read this far, I just want to say thanks for being interested enough to listen to a stranger's opinion ~ if everyone displayed that openness to listening, these debates would be much more useful (and civil). Peace and fulfillment to you.

[Zookeeper]

174. Good points.

Thank you for adding your thoughts, Snow Goose.

:hi:

[WinkyDink]

172. As long as she doesn't have a wide stance. Tap, tap, tap,.............