Bill Maher on feminism, women, and the "feminization" of the United States

[Katherine Brengle]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_Z8j4QJ0oiY

If you can't see the misogyny here, you're not paying attention.

Selections...

Talking about how the US has become a "feminized" country:
"Sensitivity is more important than truth."

(i.e., women are only concerned with sensitivity, men are only concerned with the truth -- women are frivolous, men are serious)

"Feelings are more important than facts."

(same)

And prefacing his remarks with "for lack of a better word" is not the same as not being a misogynist fuckwit.

"He's a comedian" isn't a good excuse. He's perpetuating every cultural bias we have against women in public, therefore he is part of the problem.

(Oh, and Bill, sitcoms aren't research. They're a product of a culture that wants everyone in their place. Images of controlling women and weak men in media like this are designed to keep one side of the population pitted against the other, not to accurately portray the average American life.)

[Lorien]

1. "Sensitivity is more important than truth."

or, as Right Wingers say " enough with the political correctness, I KNOW that minorities and women are inferior."

"Feelings are more important than facts."

or, as the Right Wingers say "Scientists don't know everything. I have my BELIEFS and my FAITH that I place before your so called scientific "facts"".


What Maher the Libertarian is complaining about is not the "feminization" of our country, but the adoption of far right views and beliefs into mainstream culture. He's never had a relationship with a woman that lasted long enough for him to understand that we can be as ruthlessly logical and insensitive as any man, or not. Such stereotyping is just plain idiotic.

[Cleita]

3. Or look at the women he has had a relationship with like Ann

Coulter. Maybe that's why he's turned off. He needs to be with someone like Cindy Sheehan or Barbara Boxer, but he's too misogynistic to meet any woman like that as an equal so he ends up losing out and it only enforces his misogynism. Too bad. Otherwise he's an intelligent guy with a big heart. It's too bad his head has something missing in it or maybe part of his head is ruled by his penis and he can't get past it.

[robinlynne]

153. why do you say he had a relationship with ann coulter?

[Skittles]

2. I have known all along the man is a f***ing pig

Mr. Maher is one smarmy SOB

[idgiehkt]

76. me too. Just because a f*cking pig occasionally makes a funny

doesn't mean he's not a f*cking pig...just a funny one.

[musette_sf]

4. Bill is a classic male small-l libertarian

and the libertarian men that i know tend to agree on the following premises:

* affirmative action is unfair
* prostitution should be legal with no consequences to the male (i.e., it should be socially acceptable)
* abortion rights are a "wedge issue" and just not that important
* men are "hard-wired" to need pr0n

and my personal favorite

* women have all the power because they have all the pvssy

i've seen Maher at SFO, dropping off one woman at the gate and picking up another on the next flight in. smooooooooth :eyes: can't even spend a weekend out of town with ONE woman, he's got to rotate the stock :eyes:

he really is unappealing-looking in person. not that lookism has anything to do with the opinion of him i've formed over the years.

[smirkymonkey]

6. I have always had a theory about him....

(referring to the "looks" thing) - I think before he became "someone" he was probably just some ugly, nerdy guy who put up with a lot of rejection from women and considering the fact that he's got an ego the size of Asia, I am sure that didn't sit well with him. Now that he's got the microphone and some "power" he's getting back at women with his piggish, infantile, sexist opinions. Like most guys who talk that way. I've never met a sexist jerk who didn't reek of insecurity (and the reason for it was usually pretty obvious)

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smirkymonkey]

21. t;hey always are.....

heh heh... :rofl:

[HardRocker2005]

137. bet he got rejected because he went after playboy bunnies instead of regular women, then he decided

that women are all a bunch of bitches.

[JDPriestly]

58. Bill Maher has a mommy problem. That's why he objected to the breast feeding in the restaurant.

He did that a few nights ago. Maybe he's breaking up with someone.

I showed the video to my husband. We had a good laugh. There is a lot of truth in what he says, although I still think he has a mommy problem.

Used to be this country went much too far in the other direction. When I was growing up in the deep, deep south, we "girls" were taught to make men feel smart. We learned to giggle cutely and, yes, we actually did learn to bat our eyelashes back then. It was made very clear to us that the important things in a woman's life were to be pretty and do pretty things. I paid dearly for having learned those lessons so well. It took me a very long time to learn to be myself. When society has succeeded in demeaning men to the point that they have to spend years struggling to rid themselves of a giggle habit, I will believe we have gone too far.

Maher wants men to get more credit for the creation of the species than they deserve just because they are promiscuous and unfaithful. Excuse me. It doesn't do any good to sow your seeds widely if they die from neglect. Somebody has to have the persistence and steadiness to give your seedlings food and water and light and nurturance. When all is said and done, women deserve most of the credit for the survival of the human species. That's why we got the milk glands and the big breasts that all the men envy so much. So there Bill Maher. Deal with your mommy complex, please. LOL.

[idgiehkt]

78. "It doesn't do any good to sow your seeds widely if they die from neglect."

that is brilliant. :applause:

[Whisp]

5. I regret ever giving him any credit

I used to like his shows. Lately I've been bristling over some of the things he says - maybe he's been like that all along and I wasn't paying attention, I don't know - but lately I am changing in how I hear words and what they really mean and this creep doesn't sound so funny or so good to me now. He's slimey and arrogant and has that certain male holier than thou just because I'm a Man presence. Cock sure, that's a good word for it. I know it when I see it.

[JeanGrey]

130. I used to think he could be funny, but after the Halloween

costume he wore last year making fun of Steve Irwin's death and now this breastfeeding thing and other stuff, he's off my list. Permanently.

[Swamp Rat]

7. This was supposed to be funny?

I know it's supposed to be funny, but what I heard was an 8 minute diatribe of misinformation, bias, and straw men.

It's politically incorrect to be male??? Smart men are gay??? What the fuck is he smoking?

Perhaps it might have been funny if delivered by a talented comedian like Sarah Silverman or Dave Chappell, but Maher was not at all funny.

[Skittles]

81. good take on it, Swamp Rat

you are correct: it's a slam on thinking men too

[Sarah Ibarruri]

9. As long as he's male, he will only guess at what it's like to be a woman....

.... so he can't possibly know our experience.

[Demit]

10. Hahahahaha! Who's more sensitive than a man feeling his manhood is under attack?

Good grief, don't try telling a man the truth if it threatens his manliness. EVERY woman has had the experience of having to protect a man's vision of himself as a manly man. I'm not making this a blanket statement about every man who has ever existed, but puh-lease. Men only concerned with the truth? Oh, that's a good one.

[Paladin]

11. Enough Of The Bill Maher Bitching Threads

If you don't like him, don't watch him. As if there aren't a hundred more important topics we ought to be talking about and devoting our energies to.....

[Whisp]

12. you wouldn't be telling us women to shut up now, would you?

yah, I think you would be.
and I do appreciate that commanding overseer kind of bossman tone . sure.
well, if you don't like this thread, why the visit? consider this the Women's room thread then and you are not welcome if you call our conversation here 'bitching'. what's the male version of that, you know? bastarding? pricking?

[musette_sf]

14. you're quite observant, new DU-er

welcome :hi:

[Whisp]

thanks for the welcome, mussette.

;)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

20. Awwwww, That Was Really Cute How You Acted Like You Had Authority And Can Tell Another Poster Not To

post in a given thread and declare it a women's room thread only, and that he's not welcome. Too cute how you thought you have a right to say such silliness! :rofl:

Psssstttt. Here's a tip: Anyone can post in any thread they want and they don't need your permission, k? :hi:

[Whisp]

26. same scale as telling someone not to post on a certain subject?

thus my reply to that poster.
nope, bet not.

yes, I'm cute. and have 'perky' tits too. glad you noticed that about me.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

40. Yes, You're Right. Posters Should Absolutely Be Able To Tell Others That They Aren't Welcome In A

thread and not to post in it. You're absolutely right. How did I not see it before? Duh OMC, it's perfectly acceptable for posters to do that. You're so right marie! Oh, thank you. THANK YOU for enlightening me to the err of my ways. Posters should ABSOLUTELY be allowed to issue ridiculously dramatic demands to other posters that they aren't welcome and to go elsewhere. And if someone calls them out on such pathetic behavior, then they are to be condemned! CONDEMNED I TELLS YA!

Oh, I see it now marie. Thank you so much for setting me straight!

:eyes:

[idgiehkt]

80. are you really this much of a waste of space

or is this sarcasm?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

36. That's A Contradiction How Now?

Lyny skyny's amazing perception strikes again! LOL

No contradiction there bub. That's nothing more than a lighthearted post saying "not over the maher outrage yet? Ok, continue on", in reply to the thread. It is no where near a declaration of "Don't post here then. Go away. You're not welcome here" type ridiculousness that the poster above issued to another DU'er. Why am I not surprised that you erred in your logic yet again? :hi:

[mudesi]

38. The predictability is what makes you funny

I totally expected you to say that. I'm dead serious. :rofl: I actually visualized the content of your reply.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

42. Seems Reasonable. It's Like When Some Ignoramus Keeps Shouting 2+2 = 5!!! 2+2 = 5!!!! And Someone

answers "stop being silly. 2+2 = 4". Sure, the ignoramus after a while might be able to predict what the follow up response would be to his declaration of 2+2 = 5, but he'd still be an ignoramus who was quite simply wrong.

[Whisp]

43. we have your permission to continue on?

you are too kind

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

44. I Didn't Give It To You.

You've been bad. Time out for you!

:rofl:

[knitter4democracy]

145. "Cute" is a pretty loaded word.

Talking to a woman in a thread on misogyny like she's a little girl just made her point.

I have a lot of respect for you and how you question everything, but you undermine your own point when you belittle someone, especially on a thread about a guy belittling women.

[wicket]

147. "but you undermine your own point when you belittle someone"

EXACTLY.

[Cha]

23. YEah, Welcome

to DU!

[ThomCat]

35. Welcome to DU.

Wonderful post. I hope we see a lot more of you in these discussions. :applause:

[Paladin]

45. No, Actually, I Wouldn't Be Telling You To Shut Up

What I was trying to say is that the whole Bill Maher/Breast-Feeding topic has been beaten to death over the last couple of days. For Christ's sake, one of the first threads on the subject got over 400 posts---when was the last time that an Iraq war thread got 400 hits? Or threads on the various presidential candidates, or the real estate crisis, or this country's crumbling infrastructure, or global warming, or the desparate need to impeach that clown that currently occupies the White House, or a hundred other vital issues that need our immediate attention?

If you'll sleep better tonight harboring the incorrect notion that I'm an evil old chauvinist, be my guest. All you're doing is proving my point---this topic has gone off the tracks, everything that needed to be said about it has already been said multiple times, and what's left are posters formulating ways to have their feelings hurt. Life's too short......

[Whisp]

54. That is Your Opinion.

that this subject is over and done with.
Mine and Others differ. I really don't understand why this troubles you so and why you choose to participate in a thread that you think shouldn't exist.
You can use the Hide feature, but please don't tell me what I can or can't talk about.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

59. Oh The Hypocrisy!

"You can use the Hide feature, but please don't tell me what I can or can't talk about"

And don't you sound like a DU expert after only 3 days. Hmmmmmmm...

And how hard is it to understand why someone would choose to participate in any thread? Gee, maybe cause they want to? Maybe cause they had an opinion or viewpoint they wanted to give? Are you putting forth some assertion that only people who agree with a thread should respond, or that if someone thinks a thread shouldn't be started that means they should be barred from being able to respond as such?

This is a message board. There are many many topics. People generally will post their thoughts on said topics. Sometimes, those thoughts might be "oh god, this shit again?". See? Not too hard to understand after all. :hi:

[Whisp]

65. Hmmmmmm?

what is that Hmmmmmm.... supposed to mean? that because I am a new poster here I should only have 3 days knowledge of how forums work and the Hide feature info is on page 342 of the manual and I couldn't have gotten that far into the rulebook so fast so there is something suspect about me?

if you want innuendo, I could very well serve some your way as well. but you may not notice it thrown in your direction tho, you like your words like hurled bricks it seems.

[wicket]

148. Welcome to DU

:toast:

[idgiehkt]

83. psssssssssst....c'mere

let me let you in on a lil secret, just between you and me.

ALL of this, all of it, is a huge waste of time. :)

[The Vinyl Ripper]

125. LOL,,,

I guess you missed the "Circuit City" threads..

There was at least one that ran about 700 posts I think.

I was totally amazed at the vitriol that particular subject stirred up.

Circumcision is usually good for a bunch of posts too..

[JDPriestly]

128. This is a huge issue for women.

We should not have to hide breast feeding. It is a beautiful, wonderful, natural act. It has nothing to do with sex. It is no more intimate than feeding a baby a bottle. IMO, Maher is embarrassed or troubled by breast feeding either because he is afraid of being aroused, or is jealous of the baby (or the mother?). He needs to get over his mommy problem.

As for his men friends no longer being mustangs. Neither is he. If he thinks he is still a mustang, he is fooling himself. He is a lonely middle-aged guy, and he is going to get lonelier as he ages.

I felt discriminated against as a woman for the first time when I was twelve. I will never forget it. Up to that point, I was an incurable tomboy, best buddies with all the boys. It was a very hot day, and I was sitting -- shirtless -- on the front porch of my house with the boys that I on the neighborhood softball "team," feeling quite comfortable and at ease. Nobody was teasing me or making fun of me or looking at me or noticing that I wasn't a boy. All of the sudden my mother came to the door, frowned at me and said in an angry voice "(My name). Go upstairs right now and put on a blouse. You are too old to be out here like that." I was humiliated and furious. I cried. I refused to go downstairs again that afternoon. I was not hurting anyone or anything and for no good reason I was being shamed because I was a girl and had a girl's breasts (barely).

Many years later, I lived in Austria where women commonly go topless at the municipal swimming pools. One day, I was sitting at the pool and a woman came and sat beside me. I was reading and didn't really look at her. Suddenly she said my name. I looked and it was a friend from Vienna -- a chubby middle-aged countess whom I had known years earlier in the U.S. And there she was, sunning her aristocratic self -- topless. I envied her courage, and today I say good for her. That is true nobility -- to be comfortable with yourself as you really are. And we women really do have breasts.

Needless to say, after my traumatic experience at the age of 12, I do not have the courage to go topless in a public place. Maybe if American men weren't so squeamish about the view of the breasts (and so scare of the sexuality) of middle class women, they would be able to stay mustangs (at least in spirit if not in actions) even after they marry.

[awoke_in_2003]

142. Well, as an american man

I have no problem with women being topless. I am mature enough to handle it. Our society has kept them covered for so long, that many think they are "dirty" things. So when many see them, they react like idiots (i.e. the hubbub over the Janet Jackson incident). It is a shame.

[JDPriestly]

149. Right. This prudery about breasts is not a universal thing.

It is downright silly. But, I have to admit, I buy into it fully as to myself. I have never had the brazenness to go topless -- not even in Austria where lots of the women were topless at the swimming pool.

[Dorian Gray]

150. I agree with you JDPriestly

but I also don't see why people get so up in arms about Bill Maher. His last successful show was CALLED Politically INcorrect. Geez... isn't this pretty much typical of him. He's a sleazeball, yeah! I guess I just don't get why anybody is particularly surprised by it.

[tblue37]

62. Pissing and moaning? (eom)

[Skittles]

82. OOH, WHISP !!!

SWEET SMACK-DOWN! I like your style!!! :hi:

[musette_sf]

13. in the context of this thread

you might have done better to call it "Enough Of The Bill Maher Complaining Threads".

[DS1]

15. Nope. Too late. Target locked and the missiles are on the way

GD has found its theme for the next 2-3 days.

[Katherine Brengle]

16. If you don't like it, don't read them. Take your own advice.

Perpetuating misogyny is an important point of discussion.

[idgiehkt]

84. Yeah But Then Those Guys Aren't Getting Any Attention

dare to not play big mama tit for a few moments and one will be made to pay. It's only having to listen to whining, but it's grating enough.

[RestoreGore]

19. Tell him that

He would rather "bitch" about breastfeeding and his perceived inferiority of women and compare a beautiful natural act to masturbation rather than discuss those hundred more important topics. To me something only a pig would say and he deserves to be called on it since he deigns to say it as a public figure with that self-righteous smarmy loook on his face. As Sally Field said at the Emmys last night, "If mothers ruled the world, there wouldn't be any god damned wars in the first place." Know why? Because women really are the stronger sex.

[Bill McBlueState]

53. a hundred topics

I didn't count too carefully, but there are something like 80 topics on the first page of GD. Same with GD-P, LBN, etc. So DUers can handle discussing many topics at once. Surely you don't go around posting in all the ones you don't think are important.

[tblue37]

60. I'm a woman. I can handle more than one thread and more

than one topic at a time.

I enjoy Maher sometimes--and sometimes I think he is a smarmy sexist.

And if I want to comment on my opinions about him--or anything else--I think I friggin' will.

With your permission of course, suh.

[fishwax]

117. there's always the ignore button, if you care to take your own advice n/t

[DeSwiss]

122. Wha???

Enough Of The Bill Maher Bitching Threads

If you don't like him, don't watch him. As if there aren't a hundred more important topics we ought to be talking about and devoting our energies to.....

The same applies to threads. You don't like the Maher bitchin' threads? Then don't read them.

[JDPriestly]

132. I like Bill Maher -- except his anti-feminist views.

I think he is scared of us women. I don't return his fears. I love men, especially my husband.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

146. some of us can multitask/

[wuushew]

17. Don't read the youtube comments

there is some real garbage in there.

[Marie26]

18. He's always been like this

I remember way back in 1998 when he kept whining about how the Princess Diana coverage showed the "feminization of society". Cause women = bad. He's a classic misogynist & I wish his female guests would tell him that to his face one of these days.

[devilgrrl]

24. Female & Male guests have called him out on his misogyny.

Caroline Rhea told him that he was just pissed because he never got laid in high school and George Hamilton made fun his faux-Hugh Hefner lifestyle. He shut his pie-hole in both instances.

[Marie26]

27. Good!

LOL, that's good to know. Maybe one person should do that every show as a pre-emptive measure.

[idgiehkt]

93. I tried to watch his show once and just the way he treated his female guests

was repulsive to me, regardless of what was said. Like Freud he must have sister issues, or mommy issues or something, and is intent on making the women of the world pay. I'm glad he's done this, actually, because I really got sick of liberals regarding him as a good guy. He's a bigot.

[treestar]

105. So true, even if society were being "feminized" why would that have

to be a bad thing? Shouldn't it be around 50% "feminine?" To whine about that presumes male domination is to be preferred.

[HardRocker2005]

138. exactly, and it would take centuries of feminization to counter the centuries of masculinization. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

22. Yes, Bill Maher Is A Misogynist Scumbag. Can We Move On Yet?

No? Ok. Take your time.

[OzarkDem]

29. Come on

go read another thread if this is really bothering you. Seriesly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

37. Nah, Not Really Bothering Me. Bit Amusing Though How Fixating Some Topics Become.

Like, what happens when every body comes in and declares "I see it now! He's a misogynist!"? Is it over then? Is something accomplished? Wouldn't most of us readily agree that he's a misogynist scumbag? But so what? Are we supposed to send him to jail or something? What exactly does a thread beating it to death just to get people to acknowledge that he is in fact misogynistic accomplish?

I dunno. No biggie though, and it really doesn't bother me. There could be 20 other threads on it for all I care. But it does seem silly, so from time to time if I click on one and choose to reply, forgive me. See, doing so doesn't mean the thread bothers me or that I'm put out somehow, it just merely means that I clicked on a thread and posted my quick opinion of it, like everyone else does.

[Skittles]

85. learn to use the HIDE feature

I detested all that Harry Potter garbage but I didn't complain - I just hid the threads

[idgiehkt]

94. roflmao!!

me too...I might read those books but I seem to lag behind about 5 years on popular trends for some reason.

[Skittles]

98. that was a LOT of hiding

yes :o

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

104. Nah. I Never Use The Hide Feature. No Thread Ever Bothers Me That Much That I Can't Ignore It On

its face.

Even this topic I care quite little about and feel no desire to have to hide it from my view. I read the OP, had a reaction to it, and posted the reaction. No biggie really. But I wasn't complaining. You can start a million of these for all I care. Does seem silly though, and that's all my lighthearted and sarcastic remark was portraying.

So nah, no desire to hide this thread or any others. If I want to click on a thread I will, and if I read one that I think is redundant and uninteresting I may also choose to ignore it, without having to have the hide feature do it for me. In this case, I was just humored to see a new thread taking the outrage even further. I didn't think "let me complain! I don't like this!" as you seemed to insinuate I had, but instead I thought "how funny, another one of these overdramatic maher threads? How silly!" etc, and posted a short comment from that point of view.

Like I said: No biggie really. I personally couldn't care less about this topic. I just got a kick out of it still going round and round from a new thread with now even more drama.

But lord knows we see that here often: The fixation topics, much like what you said with harry potter or whatever else. It is quite funny to me how these things explode and become the week's topic du jour so easily, even though the topics themselves are quite empty and meaningless. That's why it should not be a surprise that some may respond along the lines of sarcasm or viewpoint of "Oh god girl, you're still goin on about this?" or whatever.

Would you not agree that just about anything that will be covered in this thread has already been beaten to death elsewhere? I ask that not for your agreement or condonement of our perception, but more just to maybe understand or fathom why some might read it with a mindset of "oh geez, this shit again?".

[MadBadger]

25. Thanks for sending me to this.

I thought it was Hilarious! Thanks bill for never failing to make me laugh!

[wuushew]

31. What was the punchline?

seriously it is just an eight minute rant :shrug:

[MadBadger]

33. An eight minute ranch in which i found funny.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

106. Now, that's humor.

[Whisp]

34. would this be as funny too?

"blackized"
"homoized"
"jewized"

think not. funny how that works.

[Katherine Brengle]

46. Oppression of women, hatred of women, doesn't count. Duh.

We're only the single largest group of human beings ever to be treated the way we are, but it's inconvenient to the fabric of society to change it, so it's not important.

[Chulanowa]

77. Does the term "Africanized honey bee" set you off, too?

Or how about in languages like German that use the masculine "der" for some objects and the feminine "die" for others - "der Bleistift" for a pencil, "die Handtasche" for a purse.

Fact is, some things and approaches are considered "feminine" others "masculine". Yes, a lot of this is based on conceptions of gender roles and contains a fair bit of sexism - both ways. He could just as easy talk about the masculinization of America with regard to our obsession with violence, big cars, and sound bytes.

It's a trait of our language, embedded in the culture we have. And I'm pretty sure that, by now, most viewers have learned that Bil Maher doesn't have the best control over his own vocabulary. He's an asshole, or, to use our language's gender-based terms - a dick.

[NaturalHigh]

30. I was wrong.

I thought (and posted) that breast feeding was the topic of the week. Obviously the topic this week is Bill Maher.

[sendero]

39. Folks who don't understand...

.. or fail to acknowledge that men and women are fundamentally different are doomed to a lot of unhappiness.

[Katherine Brengle]

48. Different from one another in many ways (generally), fine. "Women are

different from the normative men" is not okay. Not even close.

[Whisp]

49. Folks who don't understand

or fail to acknowledge that 'blacks and whites' are fundamentally different are doomed to a lot of unhappiness.

why is it okay to make women some space alien 'others' when it would be so acceptably inappropriate to say that about any other group of people?

[sendero]

56. Blacks and whites..

... are biologically identical. Men and women aren't. If you are going to make an argument, try to make one that has a scintilla of merit.

Sorry if I long ago gave up believing in bullshit that OUGHT to be so to make me feel better.

Men and women are different. Period. Evolution carved out the differences. They can and have been scientifically proven to exist.

Sorry if that doesn't fit nicely into your 70's belief system. And I'm sorry I wasted so much time believing it myself.

[wuushew]

66. No two biological organisms are "identical"

History has shown that man has blown the differences between cultures, races and religions into conflict far to often for comfort. I don't believe anybody posting on this topic has denied that differences exist between people, only that the differences should gardner equality of respect.

Its hard not to listen to Maher's "dark comedy" and not pickup up on some inner contempt he has for women.

Has anyone ever stopped to really analyze what humor is and what the brain perceives as funny? In my opinion humor is either a psychological defense mechanism(satire, mockery) or an non-purposeful emotion caused by an excess of cognitive ability (puns, absurd art, clowns).

We mock the powerful to feel better about ourselves, but really there is no obvious mental switch to prevent that same sense of self-empowerment by deriding groups of lower status. Why do racial and homophobic jokes exist?

Does the human mind require comedy for happiness and if so what types?

I think humanity is better served by acting on the myth of equality than the faith that man will justly govern his actions based on his ability to tactfully limit bigotry.



We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

[Katherine Brengle]

70. Physical differences.

Physical differences shouldn't determine social status. The second-class status of women is bullshit, plain and simple.

Men are different.

How about that?

But you won't hear that, because "man" is the norm, "woman" is deviant from the norm.

[Lilith Velkor]

71. Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth.

Men and women both tend to think and behave in the manner in which they are socialized.

We're the same species. Get over it.

[ronnie624]

123. Exactly right.

Human males and females share virtually 100% of the same DNA and are thus virtually identical, biologically speaking. The only differences are superficial ones which allow for recombinations of DNA.

Some people think they can logically us biology as a basis for discriminating between males and females. It's kind of silly.

[treestar]

144. The media is always harping on the differences, as if there is

nothing in common. Which if you stop to think about it, is much greater. We have far more in common. We are the same species and the differences are only for the purpose of reproduction. Nothing dictates that there need be anything else made of the differences that are for the purpose of reproduction.

People always need a pecking order, or, at least, certain types of weak people with low self esteem have to be better than someone else. This is the one all men, no matter of what color or creed or race or social class, can have. It's their last chance at being higher than someone in a pecking order. Which explains why the men of the lowest social classes are the worst - it's all they have.

[Whisp]

75. yes, they are different alright.

different pay, different work load, different rules....

so let me get this straight. you said that blacks and whites are biologically identical. check.
but men and women are different.
so that identical group you are talking about is taken only of men, (or only of women, but unlikely) to be identical.

i'm oddly feeling excluded and wierd assed alien creature again.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

111. Do You Not Believe That There Are Many Marked Physiological, Biological, Mental, Hormonal And

instinctive differences between men and women, that lend themselves to certain behaviors, tendencies or overall dispositions, when generally speaking?

[ronnie624]

124. 'Generally speaking',

those same differences exist between males.

The exaggerated affectations of femininity and masculinity that are the norm of modern human society, are strictly cultural in nature. You do not see this phenomenon in other primate species.

[Katherine Brengle]

69. Ding ding ding!

But it's okay, because ev-psych pseudo-science tells us that "women are different" of course.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

108. "why is it okay to make women some space alien 'others' "

I'm sorry, but that sounded like an exaggerated and falsely represented argument to me. Can you point out to me where the poster you responded to said that?

Thanks. :hi:

[idgiehkt]

87. different than does not equal better than or worse than

I think you mean that minorities who run afoul of the dominant culture will regret it. (???)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

114. Hmmm. For The Life Of Me I Couldn't Find In The Post Where That Was Insinuated.

I tried and tried and tried and tried. Yet in the end of it all, I must now give up and conclude that you're just simply making that insinuation up, for sake of flawed argument.

[idgiehkt]

118. keeping you distracted

was my task for that hour. Great job, troops.

[Whisp]

133. yes, you can be very trying.

"I tried and tried and tried and tried."

don't hurt yourself, now.

[treestar]

107. No they're not, they're both human

and have far more in common than they do differences.

[Gemini Cat]

127. Different? How so?

The only difference I know of is men can generally write their name in the snow and women generally can't. Other than that difference, they are both basically the same.

[HardRocker2005]

139. strawman much? nt

[HardRocker2005]

140. i probably believe men and women are more more different than you do. oh, and Maher's an ass. nt

[Whisp]

41. hey Mr. bill - and all that 'masculinization' of America

has sure proven to have worked great for us all around the world. throughout most of history.

sure.

[noamnety]

55. Excellent post.

screwed up notions of masculinity have done a lot more harm than any so-called "feminization" of America.

[idgiehkt]

89. It's going swimmingly in Iraq.

yes indeed.

[abq e streeter]

47. hadn't seen this in a while; appreciate the link.

good to see women in the audience laughing and applauding; who apparently are secure enough to laugh at themselves and appreciate that Maher , while being over the top as part of his schtick, actually has some valid points to make. I guess I've set myself up for some angry replies and accusations. Have at it if you feel the need to...

[Katherine Brengle]

50. Internalized misogyny.

Nothing happens in a vacuum, we are all effected.

[mark414]

57. meh, i laughed through most of it myself

so of course, that means that we think that the only place for a woman is in the kitchen, barefooted and pregnant.

obviously this is case, because i laughed at a comedian's jokes. though you are right, some of the points he raises are valid and spot on, while others are offensive and not funny.

nobody's right 100% of the time, and even a broken clock is right twice a day...

[qdemn7]

120. I won't I think that bit is hilarious....

So we'll both get slammed. Too bad. Maher is a comic, and comics exaggerate things.

Maher would not be where he is today if he did not have an audience. I know that is really difficult for some people to accept. Too fucking bad. :nopity:

[Bill McBlueState]

51. I'm not sure "not paying attention" is the only possibility

Unsurprisingly, we've got people in this thread who are belittling anyone who takes issue with Maher's remarks. We've even got someone who actually thinks the clip is funny.

They can't just not be paying attention. I think they *are* paying attention, but they've got deeper problems of some kind that keep them from discussing gender issues like adults. They're still mad that they were asked to leave the room during the fourth-grade puberty video or something.

[abq e streeter]

68. So

There's "someone" who actually thinks a funny and sometimes right on the money comedy routine is , um, funny and sometimes right on the money. The horror, the horror. And I'm right with you being appalled at belittling another's opinion, unlike, say, accusing anyone who likes Maher (including I guess, all those women in the audience) of having "deeper problems" apparently relating to "fourth grade puberty videos".

[Katherine Brengle]

72. Willful ignorance then.

[mark414]

52. the question of bill maher's mysogyny was, well, never in question

so you don't like him.

ignore him.

that's what's great about america, bill can say whatever he wants and you can decide whether or not to listen.

[Whisp]

63. it's never that simple.

for all the countless comments/bad attitudes towards women that misog-bill and his kind have that are thrown out for public consumption - each one adds onto the whole stinking sexist attitude pile that affects us all. Each time crap like this is added, it's like an invisible nod nod wink wink between the boys clubs that it is Okay to marginalize and disrespect women. and fun too.

i'm damned sick of it and know I will never see the end but I'm going down fighting.

[mark414]

64. okay

usually whenever somebody says mean things about me, i chalk it up to them being an idiot and go on with my life.

whatever happened to sticks and stones....?

the bad man called you mean names....grow up! bill maher making some jokes and saying stupid misogynistic things isn't the reason that you make 75 cents on my dollar

there's a lot of bad people in this world who say a lot of bad things, and some of the reactions on this thread don't do anything but reinforce some of the points that maher made

[Skittles]

88. misogyny is not a simple matter of "people being mean to us"

it is reflected in law and culture and seriously affects every woman you know

[mark414]

91. you are absolutely correct

but this is a guy who's paid to say ridiculous and over the top things. bill maher is not the cause of our currently reality, he's a symptom. surely there are more worthy targets.

would you categorize the women in the audience who laughed just as hard as the men as self-hating women? female misogynists?

[Skittles]

92. ignorance is not confined to the male species

absolutley not - look how many female repukes there are

[mark414]

100. so what you're saying is,

is that yes, the women laughing in that audience are self-hating women. i am not trying to be offensive right now, especially to you skittles (i am familiar with you from the lounge, and i like you).

but that statement is a little bit presumptuous, and a whole lotta self righteousness

[Skittles]

101. did not see the piece, I don't watch that piece of garbage Maher

I cannot assess that - I pegged the him as a misogynist a long, long time ago

[idgiehkt]

97. it's a belief system that he's parroting

we create the world out of what we believe. Shame he supports that kind of thing but it's not new to me, I'm just glad he's being honest about it.

[treestar]

116. Women go along with it a lot

Many of them think they have to. They think they need a man to survive.

That doesn't mean that those of us who don't think it's funny can't say anything about it.

Even those women think they are exceptional - they don't see themselves as being included in the group being put down - they wouldn't be laughing if they didn't think they weren't being catered to in that way.

[OzarkDem]

73. He's also admired

by many Dem men who claim to be progressive. Its worth the effort to "raise their awareness" of how they should question him when he has such a sick attitude about women.

[idgiehkt]

95. yes, that's why I'm liking this

He has always made my skin crawl, since I first saw him on an episode of "Rosanne" where he played a photographer of nudie pics.

Smary, and I really don't think that his views have changed any, so it's good he's saying this stuff out loud.

[noamnety]

67. Silence condones.

There was a day when people were encouraged to speak out against bigotry, not just accept it as their lot in life.

I found that more noble somehow than someone named Mark telling women to just shut up about misogyny when they see it. That's not really the sort of person I would look to for inspiration and leadership in a social justice movement.

[mark414]

79. okay, you caught me, i'm a woman hater.

i never told anybody to shut up, i told people to ignore him. please do not conflate the two, there's a big difference.

and i, an unemployed and poor as hell single male without a single outlet for my opinions other than this anonymous message board am somehow now a disappointment because i'm not the next messiah of the social justice movement?

if i sat down and wrote a series of position papers, bill maher would probably deride me as a feminized male. but i'm telling people to ignore a comedian for christ's sake, and am derided as ignoble...

what? are you serious? are we so sensitive, so soft-skinned that we can't handle the words of a guy whose entire profession is based on exaggeration, provocation, and offensiveness?

[noamnety]

90. It's one thing for you to ignore bigotry.

It's another entirely for you to tell OTHER people THEY need to ignore it.

It's worse yet to be a male telling women to ignore bigotry against them, or to be white, telling a person of color to ignore bigotry against them, or to be straight telling the GLBT community to ignore bigotry against them, or to be rich, and making hate jokes at the expense of poor people.

It's shameful to not speak out against bigotry when you see it. It's beyond that to tell others they shouldn't speak out.

[Katherine Brengle]

74. Look around some of these threads - it *is* in question.

No, I don't like him. I don't like people who are filled with hate and insist on inflicting it on the rest of the world.

I refuse to ignore such hatred, particularly when it is being condoned by society. That is a much bigger deal than one loser comic's bad jokes.

[opiate69]

110. "I don't like people who are filled with hate and insist on inflicting it on the rest of the world."

[treestar]

109. we can listen and then say whatever we like about what he said

and we don't have to like what he said or shut up about it.

[mark414]

119. i never told anybody to shut up!

all i said was to ignore him!

[libodem]

61. He's always been negative on women

I think he likes to fuck 'em but he doesn't understand why there needs to be any relationship or feelings involved. He wishes women would just put out for free and then disappear. In that respect he seems to wish women were more like men and just had sex casually for fun and because it feels good. I don't know if he pays for it or not? We need the China Policy and just do the female infanticide or leave them by the road side to be picked up or die. It's really a shame men need us to reproduce. The quicker they get test-tubes babies and rid the world of women the better it will be for him. Yep, we need a brain-stem on a torso, can't walk or talk but it has a hole and body temperature. Maybe some of the Faluja birth defects will create torso women just a hole on wheels. We'll send one to our guy, Bill. The world will be a better place with the women out of here. The guys will be fucking test-tubes in a warm wash cloth. Can you tell my cynicism is out of control tonight?

[Skittles]

86. no doubt he thinks the women who treat sex like men do are whores

men like Mr. Maher always do

[PDenton]

96. he's funny

... and alot of what he says is true. Bill Maher is one of the few intelligent people out there that's engaged in the mainstream media. He may not be the greatest intellectual but he's letting people know it is OK to have a deep thought once in a while.

I don't think the man-bashing is mainstream, though, it is just comming from the ivory towers and certain media perceptions; it is a mile wide and an inch deep. Even beneath the surface and in certain localities and situations, where sexism hasn't advanced any beyond the 19th century.

I don't think Bill Maher also understands that marriage is suppossed to be sharing your life and compromising. IF you marry a woman that wants to control you and change you, you should find a woman that has values more in line with your own; they are out there, but you might have to settle for judging people on criteria besides if they have a smoking hot body. Eventually the gold diggers and controlling spinsters of the world will get the message. If men think the threat of "not getting any" is bad for them, well, it is even worse for women. Nobody relishes the thought of being alone.

[Skittles]

102. LOL

I can see why you like Mr. Maher. :puke:

[girl gone mad]

99. I remember this rant..

and I remember thinking that what he was complaining about was so opposite from the realities of modern life. If anything, it is all the fake machismo that's damamging our society. The idea that real men drive hummers and vote Republican. The notion that desirable women have giant breast implants and tiny brains. Or that men are programmed to have sex with anything that steps into their territory and commitment is something women force upon them.

[tomp]

103. did bill maher notice the over-masculinization of the u.s.?

we could stand a little feminization, just for balance sake.

[libodem]

112. That's so New Age in a good way

It is the Age we are entering. The World is almost broken from the ravages of Man. We need to change.

[PDenton]

129. it's a false masculinity

... in the US masculinity is a mile wide and an inch deep too. You know the types, the middle aged dorks that never have done a thing reckless in their lives and go out and buy a Harley with some shiny new leathers to compensate for their feelings of having a small dick or having problems getting it up. I also think these types of men love to talk tough, and are attracted to leaders who talk in the language of violence and power; George Bush is their perfect buddy who wil reassure them that they too are not pussies because they believe in cracking some A-rab skulls too. These types want to compartmentalize being a "man" to just a few things, when I think being a man is much more complex.

It actually is a bit wierd that Bill Maher is talking about men being not masculine enough. He's pretty effeminate himself, maybe he just can't see that. He's vain, he wears fashionable clothing, and his appearance is slight and his hand gestures are flamboyant. I wouldn't say he's not a "real man", or that there's anything wrong with being "effeminate", but maybe he shouldn't be throwing stones living in that glass house of his.

To me, a real man is an intellectual person. He never lets his feelings cloud his judgement; his feelings don't make decisions for him. Contrast this with George Bush going with his "gut". This is about like some people accusing women of being overly bitchy during their time of the month. It's gross and crass, but people lap up "going with your "gut", as if it's a sign you are a real man. That's not thinking at all. Time to blow up Iran, or is that just bad pizza talking?

[fortyfeetunder]

113. At the risk of being tombstoned...

I think Maher has 'gina envy....

[A-Schwarzenegger]

115. Bill loves women so

much that he hates them.

[DeSwiss]

121. I've always thought Maher was an ass....

...but I no longer think that. I'm certain now.

K&R!!!

[defendandprotect]

126. Good thread! There's a lot of power in comedy -- and males have most of that power . . . ..

That's something we should note --

The late night shows are dominated by male hosts -- and I don't think the nation has recovered yet from the idea that Joan Rivers was even mentioned to replace Johnny Carson!!!!

Comedy is a way to both boost and destroy -- it is a powerful tool for those with the gift.
You can be a Lenny Bruce and wake up the nation. You can be a Roseanne Barr and do the same, just a little differently.

And this is an important thread for that reason --

Here we see that Bill Maher has often used his power to attack females --

[Blue_In_AK]

131. Of course, he has...

...but female comedians have used the stage to attack males, as well. Comedy is what it is --usually somebody making a joke at somebody else's expense.

I'm a woman. Bill Maher doesn't offend me. Sometimes I roll my eyes, like I do with many comedians when they go "over the top," or I say out loud, "Bill!" in a disapproving mother voice, but then I forget about it.

I don't think anybody's views toward the opposite sex are really going to be irrevocably altered just because they heard a comedian say something disparaging.

Lighten up, people. Life is too short, and we have much more serious things to worry about.

[Whisp]

134. I disagree.

"Lighten up, people. Life is too short, and we have much more serious things to worry about. "

what can be more serious than half the population of the earth getting shafted in one way or another because our plumbing is different than the other half? and constantly being told to wait in line patiently because there are so many other 'more serious things to worry about' is something I do worry about. I'll lighten up a bit when half the world finally gets a seat in the front of the bus.

[defendandprotect]

156. Agree! And, in fact, if we could straighten out this gender-power thing, I think . . ..

we would have a much better shot at straightening out many of the other problems in the world.
Like war -- as Sally Fields just pointed out.

In fact, some say that all war is actually a war on women -- just look at Iraq!

[defendandprotect]

157. deleted

[defendandprotect]

155. The majority of comics with shows and soapboxes are now and have always been . . . male.

Yes, Phyllis Diller and Roseanne made fun of males. I don't think you'd call it "attacked" as we see it with Bill Maher, for instance.

There has been a lot of logic re humanity in Roseanne's humor, IMO.

Maybe you're been being too good a sport, about this?

I'd also point out to you that when males sense that their gender is being attacked, they usually don't let it pass lightly.

[NobleCynic]

135. In regards to the "for lack of a better word",

is it possible to rail against the hypersensitivity our culture can exhibit without being a misogynist? Linguistically speaking, women and the softer emotions are so intermingled, how can you talk about one without talking about the other? Prefacing a comment with "for lack of a better word" might be the only way to go.

[ismnotwasm]

141. Don't buy it

Dude, he prefaced his whole talk with "I'm going to talk about women"
Women are accused of being hypersensitive when they express strong opinions. I'm not particularly sensitive. I'm a woman. I have strong opinions (ie; Maher's a misogynist ass) Having them gendered as female emotionalism and dismissed is very old, tired tactic. His 'steely eyed realist' bullshit just irritated me. He meets one I'll bet you a dollar his word for her would be "bitch" Linguistically speaking.

[HardRocker2005]

136. the "feminization of america" is one of Maher's favorite bogeymen...uh.. bogeywomen. nt

[spindoctor]

143. Bill is absolutely right as always (and funny to boot)

First of all, lighten up. If you have nothing better to do than bashing Bill's 2002 routine, you must be one happy camper.

Second, before his rant (stereotyping and exaggerations are a standard comedy technique) he makes a clear disclaimer that what he is about to say does not apply to millions of men and women.

Third, to call sensitivity, feelings, safety, etc. feminine trades isn't exactly being misogynous now, is it? He is not saying that facts, truth, and fun, etc. are male trades.

Further more, if you think that sitcoms and advertisements do not reflect society at large then you are mistaken. A successful sitcom is one that people can relate to, and no industry spends more on populist research then PR.

I was under the impression that the feminist "movement" had come to terms with the fact that there are differences between men and women. Accepting these differences is the first step toward mutual respect. Men and women are NOT equal. It should be sufficient that we both have our pros and cons going for us.
The fact that highlighting these differences can be used in a comedy routine is a clear indication that we are still not comfortable with the idea. Again, standard comedy technique, extrapolate on sentiments that people recognize but are uncomfortable with. That is why so many black comedians supersize "black behavior". Would you say they are perpetuating cultural bias against minorities?

Maher is the only talk show host who I can think of that doesn't necessarily wants people to agree with him. He is the only one who encourages people to think for themselves and encounter the debate. He has changed his own mind on more than one issue.
Maybe you don't like the idea, but he is one of the good guys. If he offends you on occasion, it just means he is doing his job.

Now can we get back to the real issues?
Please?

[Vidar]

151. Bill Mahr, not unlike Howard Stern, is generally an ass, who is sometimes

on the correct side politically.

[Javaman]

152. ahhh mr. maher...

next time you are in austin, please stop crusing all the local college bars for co-eds okay? Last time you did, you made a complete ass out of yourself.

truth be told.

[MzNov]

154. I'm glad for this post. I thought it was just my opinion that

Maher is a misogynist.

Last week's Real Time absolutely did it for me. His stinging criticism of women who breatfeed in public was way over the line, whatever the line is these days. He can absolutely disagree if he likes, his right. But it's HOW he treats women's issues. HOW he delivers his own strong-willed opinions.

I'm very disappointed. I bought HBO just for his show. I am cancelling it on my principles. Too bad, sometimes he makes me laugh so hard I can't see thru my tears..... but he's had his last chance with me.

NEW RULE: No more misogynistic nimrods. We have enough hate and phobias to deal with.

:-(

[defendandprotect]

158. Where are the female equals of Leno, Letterman, Maher, Stern -- ????

There are none. Not because there aren't fantastically funny females --
but because that power is closed to females.

Female comics have pretty much been taken off the stage --
Remember the days when you could see Elaine Boozler -- ?