New Arizona Laws Making Undocumented Immigrants Consider Leaving

[knowledgeispwr]

My Translation of the opening paragraphs from Spanish (AP article found at Univision.com: http://www.univision.com/content/content.jhtml?chid=3&schid=278&secid=12134&cid=1290655&pagenum=1)

New laws with tough sanctions for businesses that employ undocumented immigrants is making the undocumented residents of Arizona consider a possibility that until recently seemed unthinkable: Return by their own methods to their countries of origin where they will have fewer opportunities for work, less money, and fewer possibilities/horizons for their children.

A state law that will go into effect in January will require that employers corroborate the immigration status of its workers using a federal database.

"If I lose my job, I'll return to Mexico, said Elías Velásquez, an undocumented immigrant who came to Pueblo a year ago with his wife.

Shelia Chávez, an undocumented Guatemaltecan immigrant who came to Arizona with her husband nine years ago said that both she and her husband are seriously considering the possibility of returning to their country (Guatemala). "It's unjust. We do all the difficult jobs in this country," she lamented.

Various states and localities are considering similar tough measures in the face of the failure to pass a federal immigration overhaul. Any thoughts about these measures?

Edited for correct a mistake

[TahitiNut]

1. I'd say that's "corroborate." not "collaborate ."

They've BEEN collaborating - that's part of the problem.

[knowledgeispwr]

2. You're right. I made a mistake. Thanks. n/t.

[Lex1775]

3. A lot of support for it out here in AZ.

I have friends/family on both "sides" of the political spectrum and made up from a couple different ethnic groups that applaud this.

On a side note, I find this funny:
"Shelia Chávez, an undocumented Guatemaltecan immigrant who came to Arizona with her husband nine years ago said that both she and her husband are seriously considering the possibility of returning to their country (Guatemala). "It's unjust. We do all the difficult jobs in this country," she lamented."
Kind of hard to talk about anything being just or not, if you are actively breaking the law... and have been for nine years.

[knowledgeispwr]

6. She said "injusto" which is also how you say "unfair"...

so that's another way to translate what she said. Though I do still find that dichotomy interesting (unfair/unjust vs. breaking immigration law). Still, it's also unfair to be born in a place with few opportunities.

[Lex1775]

8. Thanks for the clarification...

I didn't realize it could be translated into "unfair" as well.

Still, I don't think this kind of situation should be looked at through the lens of being fair or unfair. Fairness indicates a situation where you can control/change variables to achieve an equally desirable outcome for all individuals. There are no such controls on being born, that's just a matter of luck... and statistics.

Anyway... all that aside. There is a lot of support for this legislation among the voting populace. The biggest opponents of this law are corporations and their special interest groups. They have been lobbying the AZ state gov't BIG TIME, trying to get this pushed back or removed from the books.

[knowledgeispwr]

10. Thanks for the local perspective.

I'm not surprised that corporations would be opposing this legislation. It's a sad situation where companies are taking advantage of illegal workers that have no rights while American workers are simply left with no work. I don't think anyone really wins except for the corporations.

[Greyhound]

20. That's it exactly. Remember when that senile old fool claimed that,

"Americans wouldn't pick lettuce for $50 an hour"?

I feel for the people of Mexico, but it also seems that the risk-takers, the agents of change that would be invaluable in bringing the needed changes to Mexico, are the very people that are here to scratch out a living and send a pittance back to their family and accomplishing nothing except to make rich people more wealthy.

[Yupster]

23. I think you have that exactly right Greyhound

A tenth or more of the entire Mexican population is in the USA illegally.

And which tenth is it?

It is the individuals who are the most vibrant, the risk-takers, the people who are activist enough to uproot themselves to somewhere else with an uncertain future ahead of them.

These are exactly the people that Mexico needs to improve its conditions at home.

[Greyhound]

4. What are the penalties for the employers?

Without sanctions against the employers, this will only hurt the IIs and do nothing to restore wages for the working class.

[knowledgeispwr]

7. They could lose their licenses to practice business.

That law seems to be the one worrying immigrants the most. Few employers may be willing to risk losing their licenses in order to contract undocumented workers.

[AZBlue]

12. There are sanctions - they can actually be out of business for repeated violations.

That's what I like about it - it focuses on the corrupt corporations and businesses.

[lonestarnot]

15. Shut down 10 days is involved.

[shrdlu]

5. Bueno...Vaya con Dios!

[whoneedstickets]

14. Si, Hasta La Vista!

I see absolutely nothing wrong with enforcing laws on legal work status. This must be coupled with unemployment insurance and welfare fraud prevention and then perhaps a program providing free bus trips to Nogales.

[lancer78]

9. My problem

with this is that if all the illegal immigrants go back to their countries all their employers will follow them. My town has lost 250 manufacturing jobs and $150,000 in lost tax revenue from immigrants leaving and the factories following them. My company that I work for alone had to lay off 10 anglo-americans that pay taxes because we lost so much revenue from sales of products to local hispanic workers. I fear my job may soon be next.


I will say this. All the illegals in this country contribute around $300 billion to the GDP. Getting rid of the illegals will result in no gain of jobs for regular americans. The current " get rid of all illegals " train of thought is as short-sighted as the Iraq war. People only care about immediate results. They do not see the long-term consequences of their actions.

[knowledgeispwr]

11. Where are you, lancer? In Arizona?

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. Great post!

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[PDenton]

16. maybe you have a point

... however if you lived in a place like Florida... you might have a different view on immigration.

Alot of immigration in Florida is on guest-worker visas and stuff like that. Lots of Jamaicans, Haitians, and other Carribean people. Some may have legitimate refugee status, who knows... but if you are an American citizen born in this country, and you only have X amount of education, less than a bachelor's degree, you are competing against a slew of people who have no problems living with multiple families in an apartment building. Many live in motels, etc. It could be why wages are depressed around here. Entry level wages for jobs like paralegal only pay enough to get a very basic apartment, and if you want it in a non-slum area, you better have a room-mate to pay for it.

The people who rant about Mexico don't realize that there is a third-world country inside the US's borders already- it is called Puerto Rico. Puerto Ricans are free to come and go to the US to seek jobs, many do since Puerto Rico in many places is just one slum after another and there are more jobs in Florida. But for some reason alot of people only focus on the Mexicans because they are the most visible nationally. You've got more than Mexicans, you've got people from all over Central America comming to the US legally and illegally. You can see them at Wal-Mart all the time stocking up on cheap food, they've got a couple kids in tow, barely clothed.

It doesn't help the US policies in Latin America have been so crappy. Bush first thing re-instituted the Mexico City policy, prohibiting money going to family planning. In Mexico it is illegal to have an abortion. In rural areas women have way more kids than the economy can support, and the corrupt crony government refuses to share the wealth of the country with the people, so they stay poor- a huge percentage of the country has CORN after all, as their main source of caloric energy: that should tell you something. I think any solution to immigration will have to involve protecting and promoting human rights for women in Latin America.

This is a case of where I think Democrats have thrown working class Americans under the bus. I no longer think Democrats care about my interests, as somebody with a 2 year college degree just looking for work that pays for a decent place to stay in a safe neighborhood. Maybe Edwards is talking more about stuff I care about, but Democrats are afraid of talking about immigration and the economy in any way that will soothe my fears. This country is leaking good jobs and importing third world labor, it is time to tell it like it is.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

17. so Paralegal is an entry level job?

Even if you have blue collar skills (which I respect because my dad was a pipefitter and an attorney), it's tough getting a job, from what I hear.

Hell, I have a 2 year degree, a bachelor's degree, and a Doctorate in Law!!!

I spent over a year looking for a paralegal job, and got a grand total of ONE interview. I also could not get any temp jobs, as a paralegal or legal secretary,although my grammar and spelling are excellent, and I can type 115 words per minute on a computer, draft legal pleadings in my sleep and all that kind of stuff.

I can spell spondylosis, spondylolysis, and spondylolisthesis, from taking medical depositions, and also know what they mean.

If you're over forty, you're a shunned person. Corporate America thinks we should all drop dead if we have a good education and skills but are over forty. Then we are too expensive.

College is nothing but a cruel joke. Guess I should have invested that thousands of dollars the parents spent on the bachelor's and what I spent on the doctorate, towards retirement.

Fuck Corporate America. And that includes the law firms. They do not need me and I do not need them.

Folks, we live in mediocracy. Mediocrity gets rewarded. Excellence and perfectionism towards your work product gets punished.

Note: Some of the right wing recta at one of those sites we can't mention were criticizing my grammar and spelling as being mediocre!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

So what happens to the little children who were born here and are American citizens, when their parents get deported to their home country? Who takes care of the millions of children who are American citizens? Huh? Talk about unintended consequences.....

[Selatius]

18. College has been reduced to glorified job training.

Don't get me wrong. College has always been about imparting skills to the next generation, but they've been neglecting the part about turning out well-rounded, conscientious citizens, not just obedient workers willing to accept progressively lower-paying/shittier jobs and pensions that disappear when you go to collect them.

The bad news is the economy is shaky, and jobs are sparse and will continue to remain sparse. The good news is in your wanderings, you can always be reminded of your college years when you get the bill at the end of the month stating how much student debt you still have. :sarcasm:

[PDenton]

22. I have been thinking about going back to college

.. maybe study accounting.

But honestly I am thinking about just asking my dad, who offered to help pay some of the way, to just start paying money into a long term savings account instead. That way I can start just saving money instead of accruing debt and having nothing to show for it at the end. I am also looking for entrepreneurial enterprises I might be able to do, but being an entrepreneur is tough because you are competing very often with large corporations who can get their message across very easily (one time I thought it would be great to just open my own coffee shop, and suddenly coffee shops sprang up everywhere... so what's the point in being an entrepreneur anymore?).

I cannot emphasize this enough: the job market in Florida is an abomination. The unemployment figures are a lie- they look ridiculously low because they are ridiculous. They just have to be. I spent 8 months looking for a job and didn't find anything. The reality is that many people are underemployed or dis-employed.

Oh sure, I COULD get a job, very low wage, in Metro-West, in gangland. But I'd be using up alot of my salary on transportation, it would hardly be worth it. I've heard people say "but at least you get job experience". I just cannot connect the dots, to me it seems like people no longer even care about job experience. Low wage jobs do not lead to the kinds of experiences that employers value.

I actually think our environment is also tied in with this as well. It is ironic that Republicans say they won't sign Kyoto because they are worried about American jobs, but they haven't lifted a finger to actually keep any jobs in the US. Nobody has called the Republicans out on that one. I think an emphasis on environmentalism could actually create jobs in the US, it is something Republicans should consider.

This generation is just going to drift from one low-wage job to the next, never advancing. It is sad, and makes me angry. I wish people would share just a little bit of that anger, then maybe we'd see some change in this country; stop importing third world labor, stop the exodus of jobs. Invest in our future. The economy should be the no. 1 issue after the Iraq war.

[Greyhound]

19. Elaboration please.

Your story sounds atypical at best. Factories generally do not follow low-wage employees and your post seems to imply that the illegals are also it's primary market, this does not make sense, so some more details would be appreciated.

[pampango]

24. Thank you. This is not the first time in our history that immigrants

have faced opposition. I would guess that the US has been the destination of more immigrants than any country in history? Many came before there were any immigration laws, many were legal after laws were enacted, and some have been illegal.

"But it is different now." A sentiment that was undoubtedly expressed by those opposed to the immigration of the Irish, and the Italians, and the Eastern Europeans, since they were viewed as a threat to jobs and wages. Immigration opponents in those days, just as many today, knew that you could not criticize immigration in theory, since almost all of us are descended from immigrants, but you could get a lot of public support from those already here to oppose the "next wave" of immigrants, say the Irish.

"They are poor, illiterate, and willing to work for low wages." Are they talking about the Irish, Italians, Chinese, Hispanics or others? Whether the immigrants are English, Irish, Italians, Germans, Scandinavians, Eastern Europeans, Jews, Catholics, Protestants (and other religions that I am forgetting), Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, Cuban, Haitian, or Hispanic they are all productive contributors to our society and economy, even if they did not start out that way.

If Americans of those eras had the sophistication and power that we do now, they may have been able to turn back these immigrants, and deport those who slipped through. Maybe when I am 100 and the opponents to some future group of immigrants gear up I can provide them with the slogans that have proven so effective over our history. "We are not opposed to immigration, just to these immigrants." "We are just protecting American jobs and wages." "It is not that we are xenophobic or racist, it is just that these immigrants are too poor, too lazy (or too hard-working, this one is flexible depending on the stereotype), and besides they speak a funny language."

[mvccd1000]

25. I can't agree with that

While I'm sorry to hear that your may lose your job, it's tough to support a group that is breaking the law.

Here in Phoenix (and I would suspect elsewhere, as well), a HUGE portion of the illegal population is involved in day labor; homebuilding, landscaping, janitorial services, etc. Those kind of jobs simply can't "follow the population" if we provide disincentives for the illegals in America, and they all leave. SOMEONE who remains - hopefully a legal resident - will have to do those jobs.

By the way, I'm curious why it matters that the 10 laid-off employees are white. Does the race of an illegal (or legal) immigrant matter to you?

[L. Coyote]

21. Arizona is only one state. There are many more jobs in California than AZ.