Tasers=Torture

[Bonobo]

Using tasers to get a person to comply or as a punitive measure is nothing less than torture.

As a self-defense tool, face it, they are not the greatest thing. Wires attached, doesn't shoot far, could accidentally shock yourself, etc. But as a compliance/punishment device, nothing can beat them.

So... torture or not, you decide. Here are some videos of the effects of tasering on the body to look at. Judge for yourself.

This guy is a cop and a strong man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACUjnJBHIZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAKbplNGhDo

[slackmaster]

1. What would you propose as an alternative?

The purpose of a Taser is for police to get criminal suspects to comply with their (usually) lawful orders without using the threat of deadly force.

[reality based]

5. You mean "deadly force" was an alternative for that student in Florida that was

rudely demanding that Kerry answer some uncomfortable questions?

[slackmaster]

8. What would you have had the police do?

Please answer, and "Leave the guy alone" is acceptable if that's how you feel about it.

[reality based]

11. I will answer after you answer the first question.

[slackmaster]

17. I think the student did nothing wrong and should have been left alone

The problem with the incident was behavior, not what tool was misused.

[reality based]

69. I'm still thinking about the premise that a taser is to be used as an alternative to deadly

force. I certainly saw nothing in that incident that justified considering the use of deadly force, therefore, no reason to use a taser as an alternative. Obviously the police contributed to the situation by their intervention while the student was at the microphone. I have faced disruptive hecklers intent on disrupting a meeting (long before there were tasers) and never had to rely on brute force to calm them. Most politicians know how to work crowds and individual hecklers are easy to deal with. This was just another example of the old adage-- "When you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

[Clintonista2]

107. Apparently he thinks that guns are a better solution

[Hippo_Tron]

94. Grab the guy and drag him off the premises

If he did anything illegal, arrest him and put him in handcuffs.

In a dangerous situation I can understand the need for a taser. But if it's several cops vs one unarmed person I don't see why they can't just grab him and drag him away.

[mark414]

129. they had the situation under control

there were 4 or 5 cops sitting on top of the kid. are you telling me 4 or 5 officers trained to deal with belligerent people would have been completely and utterly unable to cuff one guy and pull him out of the venue? he was being loud, and both of his arms were pinned behind his back. how is that dangerous?

thank god it wasn't some 300 pound biker or he might've killed everyone in the room!

i would have the police DO THEIR JOBS, not act like they're employed by Blackwater.


police are supposed to work FOR us, on our side. and it's dangerous, DANGEROUS, when people will excuse bad behavior by them because if they get away with it once they will keep getting away with it.

go watch the movie Children of Men, and see what kind of slippery slope allowing, accepting and like half the fascists in this thread are doing, defending this brutality.

it's sick and it's un-American.

[KittyWampus]

132. #1. the asshole was ranting not asking questions #2. Kerry tried to answer #3. the asshole

was resisting officers efforts to escort him away from the mike for nearly two minutes.

[Bonobo]

6. That is NOT, NOT, NOT the purpose of a taser.

You are much further down the road than you think and you REALLY need to come back.

It is not a compliance device. It should not be a compliance device. That is a big mistake. That is evil shit.

We are in big trouble if this is what people on a "left wing" board think. Really big trouble.

[slackmaster]

7. Why don't you answer my question?

Can you?

[wtmusic]

14. What is the purpose of a taser? nt

[Bassic]

22. The purpose of a taser is to bring an evidently violent person under control

Not to punish people who don't move fast enough for the cops' taste.

[wtmusic]

28. Well if you gave that idiot enough time

he would have hurt someone. He was out of control, and the taser brought him under control. It did the job it was supposed to do.

[Bassic]

43. Torture for safety

Just like in Gitmo.

[slackmaster]

46. Your attempt at cop-bashing falls short of a tour de force

I am underwhelmed.

[Bassic]

51. I couldn't care less how impressed you are

But this clearly demonstrates that it's useless to try to debate with you.

[slackmaster]

53. Another appeal to isness

You haven't yet said anything of substance in this entire thread.

[Bassic]

57. I gave you some avenues of research

all you gave me was the same tired daydream.

[slackmaster]

60. All you've given is your poorly supported opinions and vague generalizations

:nuke:

[wtmusic]

54. He chose to be tased

They warned him and he continued to resist.

But I know you are not as dense as you sound. I know that you can tell the difference between law enforcement and torture of captive prisoners for interrogation purposes.

I know you can.

[Bassic]

58. Thank you for insulting me.

I do know the difference between those two concepts, I fail to see how mastering a person who is speaking, and not getting into fights with anybody, can be considered a legitimate use of a potentially deadly weapon.

[wtmusic]

62. Apologizing for the snark

A nasty habit which I really am trying hard to break.

He was getting into a hell of a fight witht he cops. Cops are injured all the time trying to subdue people who are out of control.

If they had let that guy go wild for a while maybe he would have careened into the crowd, broken someone's neck, and then they could sue the local PD.

Whatever.

[Bassic]

81. I understand your point

If he was being violent, then yes it was justified.

[mark414]

128. he had 5 cops on top of him pinning him down!

christ, fucking fascists hiding everywhere these days

[JVS]

136. That guy was not going to hurt anyone. He might have been an idiot, but not a dangerous idiot.

[Zodiak]

86. Why didn't the cops use cattle prods before?

If electricity and pain compliance are so needed?

Because it is the CULTURE that has changed.

And authoritarians suck...even if they are "left wing".

[Bonobo]

9. Did cops get their job done before tasers?

They used their voices and their hands and sometimes subdue holds or batons to get people to comply.

[slackmaster]

10. Yes, they also used batons, billies, saps, fists, boots, etc.

Here in San Diego they experimented with using nunchaku. They knocked it off after breaking the wrists of a couple of anti-abortion protesters.

Police have always used the infliction of physical pain to get people to comply.

[Virginia Dare]

76. I have my grandfather's billie club..

wouldn't want to be smacked up side the head with that thing, for sure..:scared:

[Netbeavis]

18. they also hit people with batons and used mace

problem is, some people who were justified in getting clubbed or maced sustained serious, life long debilitation due to no fault of the officers.

Tasers provide a safe and effective method for dealing with those who do not comply with lawful orders or detention and arrest.

[Bassic]

24. And some people who were taserd fucking died. nt

[slackmaster]

29. As have some people who have been beaten or unlawfully shot

:argh:

[Netbeavis]

61. and had the cops had a taser handy....they would not have needed to shoot them either

in 2003 Phoenix police officers credit Tasers with helping police shootings drop by more than half and fatal shootings by 31 percent.

[wtmusic]

33. And a lot more who were kicked, punched, and choked

died...what is it about tasing that bugs you? Is it less humane than a stranglehold? Or are cops obligated to put themselves at risk to subdue someone?

[Bassic]

40. You're right, cops shouldn't risk harming themselve when they feel

like beating on some people. :eyes:

[slackmaster]

42. That's right

A cop of feels like beating on some people should quit or be fired.

[Bassic]

44. You seem to ignore the fact that

they are not fired.

[slackmaster]

47. Let's see some facts to back up your assertion that they are (never) fired for misconduct

Fork it over.

[Bassic]

52. Rodney King anyone?

[slackmaster]

59. How many of those officers are still serving on the LAPD?

:argh:

[Bassic]

True, and it only took the LA riots to do it.

:eyes:

[wtmusic]

45. You believe the cops on that video

just "felt like beating on him"?

[Bassic]

55. No, it was a deliberate exageration in this case, and a metaphore for taser use

in cases where the tasered person did not pose a physical threat to officers or anyone else.

[nebenaube]

36. bullshit...

the Taser as it is being used is a torture device.

[slackmaster]

41. How about "sometimes gets misused"?

Your appeal to isness offends me.

[Mike Daniels]

30. And people have been killed through the use of submission holds

and severly injured with batons even with the officer's intent was to simply subdue.

Mace/pepper spray has too much risk of blow-back in certain situations.

When it comes to subduing someone quickly and with minimal danger to the officer I would say tasering is probably the most effective option outside of shooting them outright.

[bryant69]

2. I think given the fact taht most criminals are degenerates cops should just blow them away

We have an overpopulation problem anyway.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Connie_Corleone]

3. Some police officers can misuse tasers by using them on people

who are not a threat. And some people do die due to current heart conditions or drug use. But, the taser is a much better alternative than using a gun.

[wtmusic]

4. Getting shot hurts too

I propose soft music and psychotherapy.

[Crabby Appleton]

83. So does a PR-24

[madinmaryland]

12. You have the pre 9-11 mentality.

Democrats want to coddle the terrorist and the criminals!!

:sarcasm:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

13. I Think Tasers Are A Great Addition To Law Enforcement And Extremely Beneficial.

I don't find the problem to be with tasers. I only find a problem to be with over zealous cops who use them inappropriately.

[Bassic]

21. The problem is that police has demonstrated that

they are incapable of using them responsibly.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. Oh Please.

:eyes:

[Bassic]

32. Perhaps you should reserach it a little bit.

Youtube has many videos of such events.

[slackmaster]

35. Well, there you have it!

How long before 15 people post a videos titled "Leave Bassic Alone"?

[Bassic]

48. You can check out the one where the cop tasers a pregnant woman

who was yelling that she didn't want a traffic ticket. Was she resisting? Yes. Did she need to be brouht in? Yes. Did she deserve a tasering? Hell no, as she was not being violent.

[slackmaster]

50. Post a link and explain how you would have handled the situation

Mr. Monday Morning Quarterback.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

39. So, So, Narrow Minded.

:eyes:

[slackmaster]

26. Police "has" used them responsibly on many occasions

Bad officers can misuse anything. At least a misused Taser is less likely to kill someone than a misused handgun.

Police who misuse weapons should be fired and prosecuted.

[Bassic]

34. Yes they should

But they are not, and they are allowed to perpetuate this shit.

[slackmaster]

49. More appeals to isness without hard information to back them up

:rofl:

[LanternWaste]

72. Some law enforcement officers misuse their guns also

Some law enforcement officers misuse their guns also. Should those also be banned from local PD's?

Some law enforcement officers abuse their wives. Should cops be denied marriage?

Or is this only Tasers that you're referring to. If so, what is the precise and relevant difference between Tasers and other tools law enforcement uses?

[High Plains]

96. Try googling "taser death"

The number of people killed with these non-lethal weapons goes up every week.

[Hippo_Tron]

101. Would you agree that they should be used in dangerous situations only?

I watched the video and don't see how in any way this was a dangerous situation. There were half a dozen cops that had to restrain one unarmed kid. Certainly that can be done without a taser.

I'm fine with tasers as an alternative to deadly force. Deadly force wasn't even close to warranted in this situation.

[Netbeavis]

15. a taser, when legally justifiable, is a solid tool in the use of force continuum

I think you need to research your material first with regards to actual legalities of the use of force by law enforcement before you post videos from a training environment and not a for-real situation.

Question, despite the few minutes of pain, how is that kid who got tasered at Kerry's speech today?

Can he walk, talk and do everything that he could do the day before he got tasered? Yup.

[NYVet]

16. When I was on Active duty as an MP

Our levels of force were

Verbal persuasion- tell person to come along
Physical persuasion- put hands on and make them move
Chemical Irritant- Pepper spray
Baton or ASP- self explanatory
Military working dog- self explanatory
Threat of deadly force- Put hand on weapon and/ or draw weapon
use of deadly force- self explanatory

[slackmaster]

19. The problem with your post, Bonobo, is you focus on the tool rather than its misuse

Your Subject line is completely wrong, but you got it half right in your first sentence:

Using tasers to get a person to comply or as a punitive measure is nothing less than torture.

Using a Taser (or any other available means) to get a person to comply with a LAWFUL order is OK.

A police officer who misuses a Taser (or anything else) to administer punishment is acting out of the scope of police authority, and is committing a crime.

[Netbeavis]

64. Yes. You can question "were the cops justified" but not the methodology of the arrest

No one thought that the police baton was a torture device when Rodney King was turned into a pinata....but people did question whether or not the police were justified in using that level of force.

[Bassic]

20. Agreed

These things whould only be used to control people who pose an immediate physical threat to someone else, but the fact is that they are not. They are used at a whim by police on anyone who doesen't move fast enough for them. It has become clear by now that the police is incapable of using them responsibly.

[slackmaster]

23. Most police officers "is" capable of using them responsibly

Just as most of them use their firearms responsibly.

Ones who cannot or will not should not be police officers at all.

[Bassic]

27. That may be true, but it is evident that a good portion of them are not capable.

And though they should not be cops at all, the fact is that they are, and that they are going to remain that way.

[slackmaster]

31. Could you possibly make your broad-brush condemnation any more vague?

"good portion" doesn't mean jack shit.

[Bassic]

37. I guess you believe it's ok to taser a diabetic person

in a diabetic coma for not complying with officers? for example?

[slackmaster]

38. If the person is combatant and a threat to the officer or others, perhaps so

I've never seen a person in a diabetic coma thrashing around violently.

[Bassic]

67. And yet it still happened.

Anyway I'm out of here. We've been going around in circles, and it's not perticularly enjoyable.

[slackmaster]

71. You should learn how to formulate and write out a coherent thought

And try a spell-checker.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

87. Your English is fine, your logic is deficient

A few anecdotes that Tasers HAVE BEEN misused fails to quantify the problem. Any tool can be misused, and nobody denies that tools sometimes get misused.

How often are Tasers used properly and lawfully?

[Bonobo]

88. The problem is how readily they are accepted even when misused.

Some here feel that using them as a compliance device is fine. Do you agree?

[slackmaster]

97. I do not accept their misuse, and again you haven't quantified the level of acceptance

You and I don't accept their misuse.

Some here feel that using them as a compliance device is fine. Do you agree?

Yes, with the following caveats:

- The order for which compliance is being sought must be a lawful one,

- The suspect presents a threat to the life or health of the law enforcement officer or members of the public,

- The law enforcement officer seeking compliance must first go through the series of less invasive methods starting with the authoritative voice,

- The law enforcement officer may use the Taser only to achieve a specific desired behavioral result, and not to administer extrajudicial punishment,

- The Taser use must cease when the desired behavioral result is obtained.

[Bonobo]

100. At least we have arrived at the crux of the matter.

You think that inflicting massive pain via electric shock in order to gain compliance is a-ok. I think it is not. We have nothing else to discuss. If I cannot sway you from your position, I give up. I could NOT disagree more. I believe it is torture.

After all, you would not even allow your dog to be trated that way. Why a human?

[slackmaster]

104. There you go again with vague, emotion-based, non-scalar terminology

I would not describe the pain of a Taser hit as "massive". That's an appeal to emotion. It's hyperbole.

After all, you would not even allow your dog to be trated that way. Why a human?

I don't have a dog at the moment, but if any dog was presenting a physical threat to me or other humans, and not responding to commands to calm down, I would have no hesitation using a cattle prod or Taser on it.

[Bassic]

106. You don't believe that a taser inflicts massive pain?

:crazy:

[slackmaster]

109. Massive has no specific meaning in this context

I prefer to deal with things that can be quantified, or at least correlate with a definable behavior.

A Taser produces debilitating pain for most people. Most people stop whatever they were doing.

The pain is temporary. It usually causes no lasting harm.

[Bassic]

122. Well, then if you choose to ignore what exactly tasers do

then yes, they are great little toys aren't they?

[slackmaster]

123. Straw Man fallacy

then yes, they are great little toys aren't they?

I've never denied that a Taser is a weapon capable of producing debilitating pain.

[Bassic]

125. No but you readily ignore it when assessing it's use. nt

[slackmaster]

126. Another useless emotionally charged adjective

"readily"?

Your response is baloney. I understand perfectly well what a Taser does, and when its use is appropriate.

[Bonobo]

112. I am not talking about a posed threat. I am talking about gaining compliance

because it is convenient.

So, with the dog analogy, it would be like shocking your dog to get him off your lap cause he was a nuisance and didn't respond to orders.

[slackmaster]

116. Convenience is probably not a good reason

So, with the dog analogy, it would be like shocking your dog to get him off your lap cause he was a nuisance and didn't respond to orders.

That would be inappropriate. That does not mean that Tasering a dog is always inappropriate.

[Bonobo]

118. Agreed.

[Bassic]

124. Agreed

I never said that taser use is _always_ inapropriate either.

[Bassic]

90. They are used as a compliance device all the time

that to me is unlawful use, but you clearly have a different opinion of the matter.

[slackmaster]

98. What would you have the police do to obtain compliance from a dangerous suspect?

If not Tasering or some other painful compliance method, what tools would you leave available for the police to do their job?

We're talking about people who don't respond to verbal requests here.

[Bonobo]

102. He said he would get up and walk out rather clearly.

Most people would cooperate if REALLY given a chance.

[slackmaster]

105. Let's be clear - If you are talking about the dude in Florida, then I agree with you

That use of a Taser was not appropriate.

[Bassic]

103. Yes God forbid they should handcuff them first

[slackmaster]

108. It depends on the situation

Some people can't be readily handcuffed. Some handcuffed people are still dangerous.

[Bassic]

110. That's true enough,

but in this case, I doubt it.

[slackmaster]

111. You seem to be flipping back and forth from this one case to Taser use in general

I call that goal post moves.

[Bassic]

114. I'm not flipping back and forth

I use different examples. This case is a perfect example of unjustified use of a taser. There are other examples, as I have hinted to. You seem to deliberately ignore some of the things I say.

[slackmaster]

115. Please provide some facts and figures to supplement your anecdotes

How often are Tasers used in a reasonable, lawful manner?

[Bassic]

119. For facts you can follow some of the links have provided

As for figures I think you know quite well that I did not conduct any official studies of this, but just by reading the stories on this, one can clearly see that there is a severe problem.

[slackmaster]

121. Another emotionally charged non-scalar term

A "severe" problem.

I used to overuse adjectives too. You'll probably develop better writing habits as time goes by.

[Bassic]

127. And you'll probably learn not to be flippant and arrogant over time.

Especially if you stick to the point.

[TX-RAT]

68. ok to taser a diabetic person

Really depends on the situation.

[Bassic]

91. Like this one?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/20/diabteic_tasering/

This is the situation I was referring to.

[slackmaster]

113. That's one case of dumb cops who should be fired and prosecuted

That doesn't mean that Taser use is always inappropriate.

[Bassic]

117. And this one too I guess?

http://www.autismvox.com/police-hit-and-use-taser-gun-on-15-year-old-boy/

And this one?
http://www.topix.net/portland/2007/04/police-report-reveals-details-of-stun-gun-incident-katu-portland-oregon-news
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2006/01/25/ns-taser-torture20060125.html

Or maybe this one
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/nova-scotia/story/2006/01/25/ns-taser-torture20060125.html (granted, thses guys are being prosecuted)

I could go on

[slackmaster]

120. I don't need to watch all those, I will take your word that they are inappropriate uses

So tell us, how often are Tasers used for good, legitimate, lawful reasons vs. bad ones?

[Bassic]

130. Much more often I'm sure,

But that's not a reason to ignore the fact that they are often being misused. Here's an analogy: one can say that cars are being driven by sober drivers much more often than by drunk drivers. Should we then simply tolerate the drunk drivers?

[slackmaster]

131. Would a rash of drunk-driver videos on YouTube constitute a drunk driving crisis?

:shrug:

[Bassic]

133. So how much brutality is too much brutality?

Tell me, where's the quantifiable threshold?

[slackmaster]

134. One incident is too much, but one incident doesn't define a crisis

:shrug:

There are four kinds of Tasering incidents:

1. Legitimate, not caught on video
2. Legitimate, caught on video
3. Criminal, not caught on video
4. Criminal, caught on video

Only type 4 are likely to ever see the light of day on the Internet. The others are either not documented on video, or aren't very interesting.

[TX-RAT]

137. Unable to determine.

Since only one side of the story is presented. I would need all the officer incident reports, witness reports, and past history of the individual.

[aikoaiko]

56. "Tasers=Torture" = Hyperbole

Anything can be used to torture. I know you're upset about the student who got tasered, but once he was being escorted out he was clearly resisting several officers.

When faced with a disruptive, resisting, and/or dangerous individual, police have often used pain to gain compliance or submission because it works.

[Bonobo]

65. Here's the point, ok:

We are sitting by and watching, collectively, the use of tasers as compliance devices. THAT IS TORTURE. We, as a society, have been inured to watching and accepting that torture (the inflicting of cruel levels of pain on a person) is an alternative.

LISTEN: Once we descended to the level of "debating" whether or not torture was acceptable, we lost our souls.

That is not hyperbole. It is self-examination.

[Orsino]

73. Hyperbole.

A taser could be used in such a way, but I believe that in the vast majority of cases, you'd see that it is used to immobilize a violent suspect or offender.

It's not entirely nonlethal--people have died from it, of course--but it's not inherently a torture device. I'm even glad it's around as a less-lethal alternative to the billy club to the head, or to the bullet. Its very convenience, however, may contribute to its overuse, and that is where I see danger to us all.

[KansDem]

63. I saw the video...There appeared to be several officers there...

I don't see why if they assessed the need to have the student removed they couldn't have just hauled him out of the room. The Taser™ was unjustified, pure and simple. If several cops couldn't give this guy the "bum's rush," then they should be fired, pure and simple.

There was no need to Taser™ the student.

[Neecy]

77. that's what I thought, too

There were four or five cops there, and one would think they could have handcuffed him while he was on the ground.

I read a book on the King case a few years ago and one of the cops was quoted as saying, "I'm not paid to roll around in the gutter with the likes of Rodney King". So they beat the shit out of him in order for him to submit to handcuffing rather than pin his arms to get cuffs on. And that's really the problem, isn't it? There are cops who, all the time, will wrestle an uncooperative suspect to the ground and others who won't 'roll around in the gutter' and use a baton or a taser. And that's why we're seeing the growing use of what is deadly force - a taser can indeed kill someone - because cops don't want to get their precious hands dirty.

[originalpckelly]

66. Tasers = portable electric torture devices.

There have to be other and better ways to enforce the law.

[TX-RAT]

70. And those are?

[Marr]

74. Oh, please. It's a tool, and a good one. Any tool can be misused.

I'd much prefer the police have tools like that to work with, as opposed to boots, billy clubs, guns, etc.

[muriel_volestrangler]

75. No. They are not "equal to" torture

Punching someone in the face might be torture, or it might be a way of stopping them in a fight. Similarly, using a taser on someone might be torture, or it migfht be a waying of subduing them in a struggle.

'Torture' involves a purpose.

[Bonobo]

78. Headlines are limited in space and I was making a point.

The real point is they are being used as torture devices and yes, they can be misused easily with a clear purpose. To gain compliance and to punish.

Why is it not torture? What is the difference? The purpose is clear.

[slackmaster]

82. Your evidence that they "are being used" as torture devices consists of anecdotes you saw on TV

:nuke:

Yes, they get misused sometimes but that does not cry for banning them.

[ecstatic]

79. Kerry better not mention Abu Ghraib again... that's for sure

Because when placed in a situation where someone was being tortured for no good reason, he did nothing!!

[Bodhi BloodWave]

89. i disagree with that

Kerry stated he was willing to answer his question, he also asked both the police and everybody to calm down and from what i just read in another post he learned of the tasering after leaving

Also something people seem to blissfully ignore is the fact that Kerry has no authority over the police

[Blue_In_AK]

99. Oh, please....

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

84. What are handcuffs? S&M sexual bondage?

[Kelly Rupert]

85. Tasers > Rubber bullets.

They're safer for the person being shot.

Tasers > lead bullets. Same reason.
Tasers > billy clubs. Same reason.
Tasers > a physical fight. Safer for both parties.
Tasers > pepper spray. Taser is guaranteed to take down the target, pepper spray can be resisted.

Tasers are the safest, most certain way of disabling a person who would otherwise be a physical threat. (And the contortions a tasered person exhibits are the result of electrical scrambling of the nerves, not a reaction to pain per se. An unconscious person would react largely the same way.) Banning a useful tool because it has on occasions been misused is a bad idea.

[RangerRK]

92. Before tasers, this student would have been shot?

Is there another way?

Would it be alright to taser your child for misbehaving?

[Kelly Rupert]

95. This student represents, at worst, an inappropriate usage of tasers.

Inappropriate usage of a tool ≠ an evil tool.

[snooper2]

93. I wouldn't say so....

Here's a real torture device...

[JVS]

135. Sometimes.