Should teachers pack heat?

[babylonsister]

Should teachers be allowed to pack a gun?
The case of an Oregon teacher fighting for the right to take a gun to school for protection from her ex-husband.
By Brad Knickerbocker | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

from the September 18, 2007 edition

Page 1 of 2
Reporter Brad Knickerbocker discusses some the history behind the Oregon case of a teacher who wants to carry a gun at school.


Ashland, Ore. - In court documents, she's known as "Jane Doe." Innocuous enough, but the woman behind that pseudonym pushes one of the nation's hottest political buttons: guns and school safety.

What Ms. Doe wants to do is take her Glock 9-mm pistol to the high school in Medford, Ore., where she teaches.

She's licensed to carry a concealed weapon and she has what many supporters say is a legitimate reason for being armed: a restraining order against her ex-husband based on threats he's allegedly made against her and her children.

But district policy prohibits anyone except a law-enforcement officer from bringing a weapon onto campus. When word got out that she had a concealed-carry permit, administrators reminded her of that policy. There's the political rub: According to state law, "any element relating to firearms and components thereof, including ammunition, is vested solely in the Legislative Assembly."

Backed by gun-rights groups, Doe intends to challenge the school district in state court this week. Meanwhile throughout the country, lawmakers are filing bills that would make it legal for adult school employees to carry firearms, in some cases providing special weapons safety training for those who want to be part of their school's security force in addition to their classroom teaching duties.

more...

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0918/p01s01-uspo.html

[proud2BlibKansan]

1. No

Hell no.

[King Coal]

50. What about a Sterno can.

[proud2BlibKansan]

51. And how would you propose we use it?

[King Coal]

56. Make them sit on it?

[proud2BlibKansan]

58. Should it be lit or unlit?

[King Coal]

62. Lit?

[Dorian Gray]

64. Ditto...

I don't believe that teachers should be packing 'heat' in the classroom.

Unless there was EXTENSIVE training, I don't think anybody should be packing heat.

[againes654]

2. NO!

Violence never solves violence.

[Greyskye]

167. While I'm about as big of a pacifist as you will find here...

...the concept that violence has never solved anything is patently ridiculous.

I suggest you go talk to the ghosts of Alexander the Great, Churchill, Hitler, etc.

Violence may not be the preferred way, but war and violence have 'solved' (for good or ill) many, many things. Including other acts of violence. Ask a holocaust survivor.

[Ian David]

3. Maybe we can just hire Blackwater to safeguard our schools? n/t

[proud2BlibKansan]

4. They are out of work now after all!!

[Beelzebud]

5. It's appauling this stupid question is even asked.

It's appalling that I spelled appalling appauling.

Thank god the grammar Nazis have corrected me.

[karlrschneider]

18. appauling?

:eyes:

[Beelzebud]

27. Are you going to have me tazered for mispelling a word?

Some days I don't recognize this place.

[karlrschneider]

28. No taser, just taunt.

...
Is it too much to ask that we make a half-assed effort to spell words correctly?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

20. Your appeal to isness offends me

So does your spelling.

[proud2BlibKansan]

68. I am appolled.

:)

[countingbluecars]

6. Absolutely not! eom

[Canuckistanian]

7. Yes. Every citizen should be forced to carry a gun

Firearms training should begin in Kindergarten (if not earlier) and everyone issued a .357 Magnum.

Anyone caught NOT using their weapon while observing a crime being committed shall be jailed.

Guns should be sold in every convenience and liquor store.

It's the only way America can be safe.

[SayWhatYo]

131. No. You're very very wrong.

Everyone should have a gun licensed to them at birth, like their social security number.

[Occulus]

190. We should make nanoguns for our zygotes

They can get rid of all those unholy stem cells for us.

Oh, wait....

:eyes:

[Recursion]

174. Well, you're partly right

Firearms training should begin in Kindergarten (if not earlier)

Amen. It's never too early to learn safe firearms handling. I started shooting when I was 7.

and everyone issued a .357 Magnum.

That becomes problematic... as members of the militia (which all able-bodied males between 17 and 45 are, by US law, incidentally) we are responsible for arming ourselves and being "regulated" (ie, trained) in the use of those arms. If the government issues these arms they can also revoke them, which would be problematic. Let me add that by the Constitution, Congress is responsible for training those of us in the militia, and they have failed at that pretty miserably.

I don't know if the .357 Magnum (by which I assume you mean a revolver that fires those rounds) is the best choice for a general civilian firearm though; if I were issuing guns to all Americans I'd choose something like the AR-15 (a semi-automatic M16 lookalike).

Anyone caught NOT using their weapon while observing a crime being committed shall be jailed.

Now that's just stupid; firearms are not to be used to simply stop crimes or protect property. They are to be used only to prevent death or physical harm to someone.

Guns should be sold in every convenience and liquor store.

Yes, merchants should in general be able to stock and sell firearms if they feel there is a market for them.

[thereismore]

8. Teachers AND students should carry Glocks. That'll be doubly safe!

:sarcasm:

[iamthebandfanman]

10. of course! then theyll be equally scared of each other!

and we'll call it "Cold War in the Classroom"
lol

[SayWhatYo]

133. 32 vs 1 doesn't sound too fair. :P

[Redneck Socialist]

9. Sure, why not? n/t

[dmallind]

11. Well gosh that's not a loaded frame now is it?

"packing heat?" I mean geeze are we in film noir mode or what?

Somehow would possession of a firearm turn teachers into rampaging loons who shoot up schools? Would a teacher who was such a rampaging loon (it's certainly possible although I can't offhand remember an example) be deterred by a sign saying they can't have a gun? So what difference does it make? There are perhaps two scenarios, one from each side of the debate, which are even vaguely likely to be affected by any change in the blanket prohibition about carrying in schools.

1) A disturbed student (or heck other teacher) could somehow learn which teacher was armed, overpower said teacher and go about his rampaging lunacy. The problem with this is that it assumes the rampaging loon could not otherwise arm himself. Since there's no evidence this has ever proven hard to do by other means I suspect this is immaterial.

2) An otherwise armed rampaging loon could be stopped by a teacher who was able to be legally armed, possibly reducing the harm of said rampage. While this kind of vigilantism is far more fantasy than reality, it at least has the advantage of actually having happened in areas where people CAN be legally armed. Of course it also carries with it the risk of hitting bystanders. That said however, assuming said armed teacher is sane (see above for why any question of legal possession is immaterial if he isn't) they are only going to start firing when there is already a lethal danger, so six of one....

All in all two outrageously unlikely scenarios, neither of which would make much difference to the amount of violence on an aggregate level. But faced with a choice between a tiny but slight chance to reduce harm, and an absolutely minuscule chance that legally armed teachers would actually cause any harm that would not have happened whether they were legally armed or not, the rational utilitarian choice is to allow the former to be at least vaguely likely.

[Beelzebud]

12. Machine gun nests at the end of each hallway would work best.

[aikoaiko]

13. Yes, if its an adult who meets the state's requirements carrying.

[karlrschneider]

14. Hell no! We DUers know better than to let people defend themselves.

...

[in_cog_ni_to]

15. HELL NO! Can you imagine what could happen? OMG NO! n/t

[Retired AF Dem]

22. Well?

Please explain on what could happen?
And people call gun owners paranoid. :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

81. Teacher has a bad day, student is in a goofy mood, student goofs off during class, and teacher

shoots student. What? You don't think that could happen?

Good G-d. Now we have Progressives who want TEACHERS armed with GUNS???!!@#$%&^%$ Man, I'm going back to bed. First I read Progressives who don't think it was John Kerry's responsibility to stop cops from tasering a man who was asking him questions and NOW Progressives want teachers in our schools armed with guns?)(*&^%$#$% Holy crap. I hope tomorrow is a better day.

[Retired AF Dem]

85. You are correct

You should go back to bed. And stay there.

[in_cog_ni_to]

92. You actually think teachers should be armed with guns while teaching in our public schools??? THAT'S

INSANE! I'd pull my son out of school if that was ever allowed around here. That's just crazy. Absolutely INSANE.

[michreject]

100. If it were allowed

you would never know if the instructor was armed or not.

[in_cog_ni_to]

103. Until a student at the school was shot and killed.

:(

[michreject]

110. I guarantee that some school personnel

are armed without the consent of the law. Even though my employer bans firearms, I carry every day and have for 6 years. I haven't shot anyone yet.

[SayWhatYo]

135. Six years and you haven't shot anyone yet?

Not a very good aim or something? ;)

[Redneck Socialist]

101. You probably should pull your kids out of school if...

think teachers are just going to start randomly killing their students.

[in_cog_ni_to]

106. You have got to be kidding me. How naive.

I witnessed some pretty nasty, mean, burned-out teachers when I was in school AND at my son's schools. That is NOT beyond the realm of possibility. Teachers have bad days too. Some have HORRIBLE tempers. Put the 2 together with a gun and you're just asking for problems.

[Redneck Socialist]

111. And how many of those "mean, burned-out teachers" assaulted their students?

And why do you think someone with a concealed carry license is likely to shoot someone if they are having a bad day?

[in_cog_ni_to]

119. WHY do I think someone who's packing a gun would shoot someone if they're having a bad day? Are you

kidding me? It happens everyday on our streets! Take the damn guns to school and it WILL happen there too.

I had one male teacher in high school who wrestled a kid to the floor. It would have been so much easier if he had had a gun to pull out and threaten him or shoot him.:eyes: Geezuskrist. I cannot believe I'm having this conversation on DU. ARMED TEACHERS IN OUR SCHOOLS?!!!!

:nuke::nuke::nuke:

[slackmaster]

122. Please support "It happens everyday on our streets!" with facts

With the qualifications that the people doing the shooting are doing so in anger and not any lawful reason, and are licensed by their states to carry those guns.

[SayWhatYo]

136. Well, I will then.

One time I was walking down the street and heard these guys talking about their friend who was walking down a street one time and saw this teacher pull out a gun and shoot his student because he was having a bad day.

*I'm not being mean, people. I'm just trying to makes the lulz.

[in_cog_ni_to]

148. I'm sure you can scan your own news sources for any "facts" you want. I'm not doing your work for

you. Anyone who condones teachers taking guns to school is not someone I will waste my time on. Sorry.

[slackmaster]

154. Pretty weak response, in_cog, I am disappointed

Any time a CCW holder hauls off and shoots someone it's big news down in the Gungeon. The anti-CCW crowd jumps on those stories on the very rare occasions when they hit the news. Your search for examples need not go beyond there. You have failed to support your claim that it happens every day.

Anyone who condones teachers taking guns to school is not someone I will waste my time on.

You're missing the point completely. I'm not condoning teachers taking guns to school!

I support the right of all adults who are lawfully licensed to carry concealed weapons for personal protection to take them to work with them unless there is a compelling reason (e.g. presence of pressurized gas cylinders) that makes firearms unreasonably dangerous. If you wish to raise an argument that presence of school-age children qualifies as such a condition, I respect your opinion. But please don't go blowing smoke and making up factoids without anything to back them up. I don't respect that.

[eridani]

191. Google "road rage"

You'll get more examples than you really want.

[benEzra]

217. Of state-licensed, vetted, CHL holders snapping and shooting people?

No, you won't. Over the past decade or so, there have been a handful of CHL-holding drivers shooting attackers/aggressors in lawful self-defense, but the overwhelming majority of "road rage" gun incidents involve people who are illegally carrying or who are otherwise not CHL holders.

FWIW, to obtain a CHL here in NC, you have to pass Federal and state background checks, a mental health records check, an FBI fingerprint check, take a class on self-defense law, pass a written test on self-defense law at the sheriff's office, and demonstrate proficiency with a handgun on a shooting range (live fire). I am one who has been so licensed; I am 36, have never had so much as a ticket, and have never participated in so much of a fistfight, outside of martial arts classes.

In those states that track crimes by CHL holders, the rate of violent crime by licensees has consistently been lower than even that of police officers, and way lower than the population at large, due to the selection bias effect (those who don't care about the law don't bother to jump through all the hoops necessary to obey it).

Do you have a problem with armed security guards in a public school? Why or why not?

[slackmaster]

232. Give me ONE example in the last six months of a road-rage induced shooting

By someone who misused his or her lawfully concealed weapon.

I say six months because I dimly recall one in Florida within the last year.

[Redneck Socialist]

147. I wasn't aware that people with concealed carry licenses were shooting people everyday.

Thanks for enlightening me.



Ummmm...wait a second, they're not.


Guns don't exude some evil magical aura that transforms otherwise normal folks into murderers. Do you honestly believe that your wrestling teacher would have shot that kid? I cannot believe that you have so little faith in your fellow humans.

[in_cog_ni_to]

149. LOL! That's FUNNY! Bwahahahahahahahaha!

I cannot believe that you have so little faith in your fellow humans. :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl: That-is-hilarious!

Where have you been the last 6+ years?! And just today on DU, a PROGRESSIVE web site...2 threads:

One thread condoning police tasering a student.

Second one....DUers wanting teachers to take GUNS into our public schools.

Puhleeze. Why on earth would I have so little faith in my fellow human beings.:eyes:

Abu Ghraib


The Psycho's illegal invasion of Iraq

FISA

Illegal Wiretapping

Patriot Act

U.S. Attorneys illegal firings

CIA agent illegally outed for revenge

Said CIA agent TRASHED by the repukes

CIA agent's husband TRASHED by the repukes

Children raped and tortured at Abu Ghraib to make their parent talk

Wives of Abu Ghraib prisoners raped to make their husband's talk

Katrina victims STILL being ignored and are suffering

Jena 6 kids not allowed to sit under the "White people's" Tree...nooses hung to send that message

1 Million innocent Iraqis MURDERED

3783 U.S. soldiers DEAD

27753 injured in Iraq :(

THAT'S WHY!

[Redneck Socialist]

151. Our government's nuts = no ccw for teachers at work

OK I get it now. (scratches head in befuddlement and wanders off in search of greener entertainment pastures)

[in_cog_ni_to]

152. See ya! have fun with your gun.

:eyes:

[Recursion]

169. Ummm..

Abu Ghraib
The Psycho's illegal invasion of Iraq
FISA
Illegal Wiretapping
Patriot Act
U.S. Attorneys illegal firings
CIA agent illegally outed for revenge
Said CIA agent TRASHED by the repukes
CIA agent's husband TRASHED by the repukes
Children raped and tortured at Abu Ghraib to make their parent talk
Wives of Abu Ghraib prisoners raped to make their husband's talk
Katrina victims STILL being ignored and are suffering
Jena 6 kids not allowed to sit under the "White people's" Tree...nooses hung to send that message
1 Million innocent Iraqis MURDERED
3783 U.S. soldiers DEAD
27753 injured in Iraq

Umm... those are all reasons the government shouldn't be able to disarm the citizens.

[Retired AF Dem]

102. I never said that

I just said you might want to stay in bed.

[underpants]

16. No just tasers you know in case one of those unwed teens tries to breathfeed or something

[babylonsister]

19. LOL! But this is a gun thread, NOT a boob thread!

:spank: :spank:

[karlrschneider]

26. I dunno, there are a lot of boobs around here...

;-)

[slackmaster]

17. Only qualifed ones who really want to

Teachers deserve the same rights and privileges as everyone else. If a teacher can pass the state's requirements to get a concealed weapons permit and is willing to accept the responsibility of carrying a loaded firearm, why not?

[iamthebandfanman]

21. and

if a student discovers it, takes it, and shoots someone ... ?
kinda going into murky water having guns inside a classroom.
outside of the school, sure, they can do as they please... but public schools should have strict weapons OF ANY SORT bans.

[slackmaster]

23. Same would apply to places other than schools and people other than student

People carry concealed weapons in public places safely all the time. Many people object to concealed carry for the same reason, but your fear-based objection is not supported by facts.

[michreject]

63. I've carried one for 6 years

Put it on in the morning and take it off at night. It goes everywhere I go. My wife as well.

[Evoman]

108. How do you put your wife on in the morning and take her off at night?

And why are you making her go everywhere you go?

;)

[michreject]

109. LOL

She follows the same routing.

[karlrschneider]

24. Yeah, like they did at Va. Tech.

That worked out really well.

[Redneck Socialist]

25. Yeah, I can see that happening. The teacher gets hit on the head by a meteor

gets knocked unconscious. The student, seizing his opportunity begins removing the teacher's cloths, discovers the gun and having been infected with an evil alien virus from the meteorite goes on a shooting spree.

Happens all the time.

[iamthebandfanman]

43. or how about this

teacher puts it in their desk. they leave the room for something. they leave their room unattended while on thier 'planning period' or while eating lunch...

just because someone is a teacher doesnt mean they'll have responsible gun handling skills.

[Redneck Socialist]

48. Do you really think that's going to happen?

Someone who goes to the trouble of getting a concealed carry license isn't too likely to leave their weapon lying about. The gun is a tool for self defense, it's not going to do them any good if it is not on their person.

I suspect my meteor scenario is far more likely than your "put it in their desk" one.

[iamthebandfanman]

235. i understand your plite as a gun loving "liberal"

but teachers not having a gun at school wont infringe on your right to go hunting, so really YOUR scenerio of letting a teacher have a gun at school is probably less likely than both of our scenerios.
thank god people like you arent in charge of school boards, thats all i can say.

happy huntin'!

[Recursion]

240. When did he mention hunting?

Why do you assume that is why he owns a gun?

[iamthebandfanman]

262. i read his profile

says he likes hunting.
usually thats the first defense of guns.
i like to hunt!

[Recursion]

268. Appeals to "hunting" always worry me in this debate

...because historically it's been a way of saying, essentially, "these rural whites can have guns, but these urban minorities can't".

Only a small portion of gun owners hunt, anyways, so it's rarely that relevant to the question.

[slackmaster]

60. You don't put your concealment weapon in your desk and leave the room unattended

When you carry a weapon, you keep it under your contro at all times.

just because someone is a teacher doesnt mean they'll have responsible gun handling skills.

Most states require a proficiency test before they will issue a concealed firearm permit.

[iamthebandfanman]

146. key word being

most.

[sofa king]

116. So now all the thugs need to do to get a gun is show up to class for once.

I'm with you, iam, but I think that three testosterone-juiced kids putting their heads together will realize that they don't have to wait for the gun to be left unattended.

They just have to wait for the teacher to be left unattended.

[donsu]

30. NO! teachers are loved. guns are not loveable.

nt

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Well, sure, if you want a lot of dead class clowns on your hands.

[slackmaster]

36. Educators don't all have problems controlling their impulses

Ones that do should not carry weapons, and probably shouldn't even be teaching.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

45. That's true.

Not all of them would go on shooting rampages.

[Gruenemann]

32. NO! If I had carried a gun when I was teaching middle school...

...I probably would've shot some little mouthy bastard.

[pliftkl]

34. The only thing that stopped you from murder was not having a gun?

You have serious anger issues, and probably shouldn't be teaching if you are so on edge that a child could goad you into shooting them. Seriously, what happens when people cut you off in traffic? Do you ram them?

[Gruenemann]

44. Oh, geez, forgot to add a smiley!

I forgot people take things so seriously. Last time I was goaded into violence I was maybe five years old. When someone cuts me off in traffic, I slow down and give them plenty of room. Life is crazy enough without adding to road rage.

[slackmaster]

37. You probably shouldn't have been teaching at all

You might have hurt someone.

[JVS]

180. and the world would be a better place

[LeftyMom]

33. If she's likely to draw that sort of trouble to the school she needs to find other work.

Sorry, but the kids come first.

[BreweryYardRat]

35. No.

Students could possibly overpower an armed teacher.

[slackmaster]

39. Substitute "shoppers" or "Little League fans" for "students"

And you have one of the tired old anti-carry arguments that are not supported by historical fact.

[BreweryYardRat]

49. I'm not arguing for anti-carry in general, just in this instance.

Anti-carrying in general is a bad idea. Carrying, in general, is fine by me. Frankly, I wish we could tote sawed-off shotguns around...that's a hell of lot more deterring to potential criminals than a friggin' handgun.

It's just that, given how many kids are messed up these days because of all the bullshit out there, I don't want to see teachers carrying guns. Just up the number of Sheriff's deputies/sworn police officers on campuses if you want more protection.

I guarantee you, at my lowest points during high school, if I'd known a teacher with a gun, I would have done my damnedest to get hold of it and off a few people before wasting myself.

[slackmaster]

55. Kids that are as messed up as you describe don't belong in school

They're disruptive to the learning environment for all the kids who aren't messed up.

I guarantee you, at my lowest points during high school, if I'd known a teacher with a gun, I would have done my damnedest to get hold of it and off a few people before wasting myself.

I'm sorry that better help wasn't available for you when you needed it.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

38. Not no, but HELL NO!

nt

[slackmaster]

40. Why not?

Don't teachers have a right to defend themselves?

[The Wielding Truth]

227. slackmaster, guns in school?

REAlity is you can't take fingernail clippers in to grade school. So,it's not gonna happen and it shouldn't happen.

How would weapons help settle violence unless you are willing to shot to kill. Did you see the Amish take up arms when there innocent girls were slaughtered? It's stupid to think that violence doesn't bequeath violence.

That's why not.

[slackmaster]

233. Have you read the OP for this thread?

This is about ONE person who has a license to carry a concealed weapon BECAUSE SHE IS BEING THREATENED suing for the right to carry HER weapon ON THE JOB for self-protection.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT GUNS IN SCHOOLS!

[The Wielding Truth]

236. "Oregon teacher fighting for the right to take a gun to school

for protection from her....".You mean a teacher wanting to take a gun to school has nothing to do with teachers carrying guns in school? I think you have missed something.

I meant that it is unlikely to happen because as things stand now, even a grade schooler can't take something as innocuous as a fingernail clipper to school. Hope we are on the same page now.

I see no sense in teachers for any reason carrying a gun into a public school unless they are willing to shot to kill. Also any firearms should always be in a secure locked place when any child is around.

She should not win her case,IMO.

[slackmaster]

239. If you ever get a chance, please take a class that involves teaching use of deadly force

It's pretty clear from your response that you are not at all familiar with this subject.

Take a class. It can be anything - Handgun, edged weapons, even an empty-hand martial arts technique. A common thread among these is taught by all good instructors: The legal and moral issues associated with the decision to use deadly force, and the consequences one faces after the first fight is over. (There are typically at least two more fights after the physical one.)

I don't believe anyone who hasn't been properly trained should carry a deadly weapon or learn manual techniques that can kill.

[The Wielding Truth]

264. I agree that gun safety is nescessary to gun ownership.

I am not agueing that. I have no problem with gun ownership. School is no place for weapons.

So you think that teachers who have domestic problems should carry guns in school. I don't.

[LanternWaste]

41. Only in the world that

"Should teachers pack heat?"

Only in the world that allows mail carriers to carry bazookas, zoo attendants to carry shotgun, crossing guards to carry tasers and garbage men to drive Sherman tanks. If that's the case, then sure! Why wait any longer than necessary to blow up the world?

[cmd]

42. Is this what the world is coming to?

I can't think of a worse idea.

[slackmaster]

46. Oh for crying out loud, this is about ONE TEACHER who has a permit

And someone who is threatening her.

[porphyrian]

47. No, and they shouldn't feel like they have to, either. - n/t

[Ishoutandscream2]

52. God no!

If I had that option when I was teaching 7th and 8th graders, well, let's just say I'd be writing you from the pen. Or perhaps from down below.

[blues90]

53. absolutely not

This country has become a gun toting madhouse . Crips , when I went to school I would have freaked knowing teachers needed guns or even a reason to consider having one at all .

If people continue to have this mentality then we are done as a country , if we are not already screwed .

I would rather parents were in control of their kids and kids without parents had some sort of good care and none of this would be necessary .

A shoot out in school , that will go over well .

[slackmaster]

57. This has nothing to do with anyone having control over students or not

Read the OP.

[blues90]

65. I read the OP

What are you trying to say ? It sounds to me there is a reason for a teacher to carry a gun and even trained of belonging to their security , tell me the reason guns are needed at all if not for students or what other reason ?

Are you in support of guns in schools ?

[slackmaster]

73. I support any qualified person who is willing to accept responsibility carrying one in most places

And that includes schools for people who work at them.

It sounds to me there is a reason for a teacher to carry a gun and even trained of belonging to their security , tell me the reason guns are needed at all if not for students or what other reason ?

Are you sure you read that OP? It's about a specific individual with a particular need to protect herself.

[blues90]

137. I said I read the OP , any idiot can understand what it's about

It's for her own safety and it appears she is more concerned about safety outside of the school and for her two children .

What makes anyone think that having a gun is the last word in protection , it would matter who drew first and if the attacker had a gun .

I don't agree at all that guns should be in any school all that would have happened at VT would have been a shoot out . No one can say what the outcome would have been but the teachers in the class rooms would have been shooting blindly through the doors .

So they claim to take responsibility does this insure after they have shot someone they would be able to handle the after affects mentally ?

I will never agree this is the solution , never . It's madness and insanity .

[slackmaster]

156. Big strawman argument

What makes anyone think that having a gun is the last word in protection...

Nobody has made any such claim on this thread.

[blues90]

162. Not in so many words

However promoting having a gun in a school is as close to saying it is as it can get . You seem to promote it .

[slackmaster]

231. ONE MORE TIME for those who can read plain English

I am NOT promoting having a gun in school.

I am promoting giving equal protection of law to people who work at schools.

[Redneck Socialist]

158. "It's madness..." No, it's...

GENERAL DISCUSSION!!!!!!

(kicks blues90 into a pit)


:evilgrin:

[blues90]

163. Lets see what you have to say when the day comes

When you're shot because some heated event got the gun out . If you support guns in schools then support the people carring them to wear a warning sign , armed and loaded , then at least those who desire to avoid this dangerous sitiation can do so .

Just because someone has a license to carry does not automatically make them under control at all times as far as judgement goes .

[Redneck Socialist]

164. LOL! You haven't seen 300 I take it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgrsNBu51nU&mode=related&search=

I was making a play on your "It's madness..." line and poking fun at GD.

"If you support guns in schools then support the people carring them to wear a warning sign , armed and loaded , then at least those who desire to avoid this dangerous sitiation can do so ."

That would kind of defeat the whole concealed part of concealed carry don't'cha think?

I don't see teacher's getting concealed carry licenses and carrying at work as a dangerous situation.

I can't for the life of me figure out where this idea comes from that if you go through the trouble of getting a concealed carry license and carry a gun for your protection that you will just pull it out and start blazing away every time someone cuts you off in traffic or the waitress gets your order wrong.

Are the people you associate with really that unhinged? How many fist fights have you been in? How many times have you even seen someone get in a fight? You you really think that someone with a concealed carry license is just going to pull their gun out and shoot someone because they got "heated?"

That idea is where madness and insanity lies.

[blues90]

166. I have seen my share of situations here in southern calif

Where a gun would have been pulled out in the heat of the moment . I don't trust people that much , sorry . I have not seen any fatal car accidents in the 42 years I have driven but this does not mean they don't happen .

If you feel it's all fine for one to carry a gun in places where they don't belong that's your deal .

[Recursion]

171. What are places were they "don't belong"

And what are the criteria you use for selecting them? And what other Constitutional rights do you want to see abridged on public property? Are "free speech zones" OK by you too?

[blues90]

175. What has this to do with a gun in a classroom ?

No free speech zones are not ok with me . Neither is having a gun in a campus or in a school . Neither is tasing ok with me .

I don't trust many cops with the way they use guns and they are supposed to have experience .

So having a gun is free speech ?

[Recursion]

176. Bearing arms and speaking freely are equally protected

To the extent that a teacher's free speech is curtailed (eg, a creationist biology teacher shouldn't be able to eviscerate a state-mandated evolution curriculum) it's because of the state's interest in keeping that curriculum. You are assuming a similar interest in keeping guns off campus, but have not established
A) that allowing concealed-carry would in fact increase the number of guns on campus
B) that the safety risk of concealed-carry licensees having guns is sufficient to justify the states' infringement of that fundamental right.

I don't trust many cops with the way they use guns and they are supposed to have experience.

Where did you get that idea, that cops have a lot of training and experience with guns? It's untrue, and I don't know that police departments claim it. No matter what you may think, that cop's gun is there to protect himself or herself, not you.

You're right not to "trust" cops with guns; certainly I don't think cops should have better guns than civilians can.

So having a gun is free speech ?

They have a lot in common, at least. Both are dangerous, and it was a huge novelty that our nation decided to allow citizens to do both. Both require an immense trust in our fellow citizens, and an awareness that they come with risks. Finally, both speech and bearing arms are Constitutionally-protected human rights that are natural to all humankind.

[blues90]

182. I agree with part of what you said , however

The second ammendment does not allow for individuals to bear arms . I'm sure you have read it .

It's state laws that allow for the people to carry a concealed weapon .

I don't assume , lst put it this way , the police are supposed to be trained , it is part of their job , this is not to say I feel confident in this , nore will I say I'm confident with any citizen with a gun and the wits about them to use proper judgement .

In bushs world I fear we don't have these freedoms anylonger , look how well free speech works out for many these days .

I am not a gun person at all , never had one and hope it never comes to this . I could not even say I would or should be trusted with a gun under the pressure of an intense situation .

There is nothing equal in this country , it is all based on position and money not equal rights that I can see .

I do feel the more people who have concealed weapons will encourage others to do the same , this is human nature to attempt some sort of equality that is a false sense of security and or equality .

[WinkyDink]

54. As a retired h.s. teacher, may I say, with all due respect, this is the DAMNED DUMBEST IDEA EVER.

I have a hot temper, in case you're wondering.

[slackmaster]

59. Have you ever taken out a restraining order against a threatening ex-spouse?

And if you did, how would you feel about being allowed to carry a weapon just about everywhere except where you spend most of your work days?

Add one more factor: Your threatening ex-spouse knows where you work, your hours, and that your place of employment has a strict "no firearms" policy.

Would you feel safe at work?

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. I work in a school and my answer is yes I feel safe

Our doors are locked and no one can get in without being buzzed in by the office staff. If I had a restraining order against an ex-spouse, they would know not to let him in the building.

I work in an elementary school and most high schools have security and metal detectors so there is no way a gun can enter the building.

So yes, teachers are safe at work.

[slackmaster]

72. Not all schools are equipped with security guards and metal detectors

Though I must agree that those are highly appropriate if weapons are to actually be excluded.

So yes, teachers are safe at work.

Teachers who work at schools configured like yours are.

Thanks!

[proud2BlibKansan]

77. The vast majority of school buildings are locked like mine is

Since 9/11 that has become fairly standard.

[slackmaster]

83. That's a real shame

Life felt so much freer in the '60s and '70s.

[proud2BlibKansan]

87. Yes it is sad

But I think we owe it to our kids to keep them as safe as possible while they are at school. Kids also got kidnapped from school in the 60s. And parents beat on their kids with no legal consequences. I much prefer the laws we have today and our increased vigilance.

[Recursion]

173. Columbine was, incidentally

It's very difficult if not impossible to actually prevent a determined attacker from carrying a gun somewhere.

[slackmaster]

234. Another "inconvenient truth" I had forgotten

I prefer the "belt and suspenders" approach to security. Licensed concealed weapons and physical security are not mutually exclusive.

[WinkyDink]

88. I hear you, and I know that being murdered at work is a, if not the, leading cause of death

for working women.

NEVERTHELESS, have YOU ever taught? Tempers can flare, from students and teachers; frustration abounds. It's a prescription for tragedy.
How many teachers HAVE been killed at work by their R.O.-spouses?

[slackmaster]

90. I've taught some ESL classes at undergraduate level, never middle or high school

I don't envy you your job.

How many teachers HAVE been killed at work by their R.O.-spouses?

Probably very few, but the case under discussion is one particular individual who claims the school policy makes her unsafe.

[in_cog_ni_to]

86. THANK YOU! I know when I was in school, there would have been about 5 dead boys

in my class because all they did was try to piss the teachers off....and usually succeeded, but instead of shooting them, they were sent to the Principals office. I could see where a burned out teacher could have had enough and shoots a kid out of anger. STUPID, DUMB, IDIOTIC, MORANIC, FOOLISH, INSANE idea!

[ManiacJoe]

127. It is your hot temper that would have prohibited you

from getting approved to carry by the administration.

[michreject]

61. Yes

Hell yes.

[MalloyLiberal]

67. Yes, teachers need to be able to taser students who don't do their homework

[Quantess]

69. She shouldn't be working in a school if her husband threatens her at school!

She wants the gun because she's afraid of her estranged husband.
Maybe she could take a leave of absence? Her social life is infringing on the students' safety.

It's loony for her to bring a gun to school.

[Dora]

70. Her "social life?"

:crazy:

[Quantess]

78. Well, yeah. You can figure out what I meant.

She has a potentially dangerous, estranged husband. Would you want your child to be in her class?

Put it this way: Would you want your child hanging around someone who is targeted for death?

Imagine the teacher telling parents... My ex husband has threatened to kill me at school. But don't worry, I have a gun.

[slackmaster]

94. You are missing one key point about concealed weapons

You don't tell anyone about them, except traffic cops who pull you over.

;-)

The kids' parents don't need to know this particular teacher is threatened, nor does anyone else need to know that. That's why she is Ms. Doe.

[Quantess]

105. Well, I guess that's where I disagree with you.

I think everyone at the school, and the kids' parents, DO have a right to know that. I think this particular teacher is behaving unethically for putting her students in harm's way.

[slackmaster]

118. She feels she is in harm's way, and is suing for the right to protect herself

The same right enjoyed by qualified adults in most places in most states, which has not endangered the public.

[Dora]

107. I thought it was a flip and callous response to a situation many have been in. nt

[Quantess]

114. Oh. Sorry if it offended you.

I should have worded it differently. Personal Life?

Sheesh here I go again, always offending someone.

[Quantess]

188. To boot: I have taught in public schools, and I do not have any children of my own.

So, I don't consider myself to be biased against teachers or biased toward parents. But, I do know that teachers are expected to uphold a high standard of ethics toward their students. At least, Speech Pathologists are. We would be shamed out of grad school for suggesting that "packing heat" at school is acceptable.

That's why I'm especially incensed against this one teacher, who is so willing to compromise the safety of her students.

[pitohui]

184. so she has no right to earn a living?

this is insane

she is not allowed to put food on her table or a roof over her head because of a crazy stalker ex?

no, i'm sorry, the woman has a right to live her life and if she fulfills the requirements for concealed carry, such that her ex will think twice before stalking her at work, then she deserves to be able to protect her own life

asking a woman to give up her income and her ability to feed herself and her children for some crappy political point is just...it's just evil

a woman should have the same right to defend herself as a man


women rarely if ever stalk men to their place of work and put their income at danger, men do it routinely and it cripples the woman's future earning ability forever

she is qualified to TEACH, because of the criminal acts of another person, she, the victim, is to give up her ability to earn and make a living and the degree she worked for is to be worthless

jeez, just shoot her yourself if that's what you really believe because it would be kinder

[Quantess]

187. How about she asks the district for a paid leave of absence?

That's my only response to your hyperbole.

[Quantess]

189. Oh one other thing, LOL,

you're a man, am I right?

[proud2BlibKansan]

71. One major problem - it's against the law

There is a federal law that prohibits carrying weapons on school property, with the exception of law enforcement officers.

[Redneck Socialist]

74. Don't believe so

According to the article at least.

"According to the National Conference of State Legislatures, 37 states have laws specifically banning guns at schools.

snip

In Michigan last week, 16 state lawmakers sponsored legislation allowing teachers, administrators, and other school employees to carry concealed weapons on school property. Ohio has a similar bill pending.South Carolina, Alabama, and Virginia are among several other states that have considered lifting school campus gun bans this year, according to Stateline.org, which tracks state issues.

snip

So far, just one state - Utah - allows concealed weapons on campus."

Again according to the article, Oregon doesn't specifically forbid guns in school, but district policy does.

[proud2BlibKansan]

79. It's a federal law that was passed several years ago

for K-12 schools. There are signs up on the door of every school in my district and in many other districts: WEAPONS AND DRUGS PROHIBITED BY FEDERAL LAW

[Redneck Socialist]

98. The original law was struck down the the Supreme Court

Congress fiddled with a bit and passed it again. As others have pointed out it does contain an exception for those with a concealed carry license.

[slackmaster]

75. That settles it, the whole case is moot

Ms. Doe has nothing to worry about, since federal law prohibits her violent ex from bringing a gun to school.

[proud2BlibKansan]

80. He'll do some significant time in a federal prison

if he gets past school security.

[slackmaster]

84. Muckers are rarely captured alive

They do their deed then either off themselves or allow the cops to take care of it.

[ManiacJoe]

132. That is a very large assumption that the

school HAS security.

[Omphaloskepsis]

196. Ummm... Ashland, Oregon.

I could carry a keg into a chemistry class without question.

[ManiacJoe]

76. Actually it is not.

See US Code 18.44.922.Q

[proud2BlibKansan]

82. Gee better tell the legal dept in my district then

Wonder who I will listen to - the lawyers who work for my school district that has signs on every building in the district advising that guns are banned by federal law

OR

an anonymous person on the internet?

Decisions, decisions.

[slackmaster]

89. The US Code section cited by ManiacJoe is easy enough to understand

922(q)(2)(b) lists several exceptions, one (subparagraph ii) is for people who are licensed by their states to carry concealed weapons.

[proud2BlibKansan]

93. In my state, even a CCW permit won't let you carry in a school

unless you are a law enforcement officer. In fact, when they passed this federal law, I remember some discussion about this one exception. But CCW wasn't as common then as it is now, so when CCW passed in this state, schools were excluded.

[slackmaster]

96. If a school gun ban is backed up with real security measures, it makes sense

Otherwise it does not.

[ManiacJoe]

117. You are now beginning to understand the issue.

The federal law gives control to the state once the state allows for concealed carry. Some states allow for concealed carry in schools, some do not.

[ManiacJoe]

125. Assuming your school district lawyers can read,

they we tell you the same thing I just did. B-)

[michreject]

104. I do believe that those are state laws

The Michigan legislature is working on a set of laws to allow teachers to be armed in the classroom.

http://legislature.mi.gov Bill is 5162
Sponsors David Agema - (primary)
Brian Calley, Arlan Meekhof, John Stahl, Tom Pearce, Jacob Hoogendyk, John Garfield, Marty Knollenberg, Phillip Pavlov, Tom Casperson, John Pastor, Lorence Wenke, Fran Amos, Dave Hildenbrand, John Stakoe, Kevin Green, Kevin Elsenheimer

Categories Weapons, concealed; Education, employees

Weapons; concealed; school teachers, administrators, and employees to carry concealed pistols in school and on school property under certain circumstances; allow. Amends sec. 5o of 1927 PA 372 (MCL 28.425o).
Last Action: 09/06/2007 - printed bill filed 09/06/2007

cont.....

[pitohui]

185. well then deputize her

problem solved

women have a right to live and to earn money too

[Quantess]

91. Lars Larson thinks it's a good idea.

It's the first link under "hot topics" http://www.larslarson.com/

Warning, he's a right-wing neo-con radio blabber.

[in_cog_ni_to]

95. LOL! DUers agree with Lars Larson!!!!!! Hell has frozen over today!

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Quantess]

99. Yes, and the Oregonian printed it on Sunday (I think)

next to an opposing editorial piece. I must say the opposing argument was more convincing, IMO.

My profile is not completely accurate, as I've been spending a lot of time in Oregon lately. This is a contentious case here in Oregon. Pretty much everyone knows the story around here.

[MissB]

220. Yeah, and Lars used "Jesus Christ, Prince of Peace" as a reason

to pack heat in school. :rofl: What an ass!

[spanone]

97. what?

NO

[Recursion]

143. Should they be required to quarter troops in their homes, too?

Or undergo polygraph or drug tests without consent? Or have their homes searched? Which rights do you want teachers to give up to keep their jobs?

[DrDan]

112. absolutely not!!!!!

This is insane.

Schools are not places for guns.

These gun-rights groups need to get a bit sanity about themselves.

[Recursion]

126. There are cars at school

Your teacher is much, much, much more likely to kill a student with a car than with a gun.

What's wrong with guns at school, anyways? I wish schools had gun handling and safety classes. We need to help people get over this bizarre phobia some of you have about guns.

[DrDan]

150. oh give me a break

that is such a lame argument

Why not cafeterias - overeating causes death

or drinking fountains - what about drownings

and rope climbs - hanging?


you gun-lovers are so pathetic . . .

[Recursion]

172. Exactly, all those are just as fallacious as "no guns in school ever"

Any activity carries with it some risk. The problem is a large portion of my party seems to greatly and irrationally fear guns and by consequence they greatly and irrationally overestimate the risk associated with people carrying them.

Cars carry a huge risk with them (greater than guns, statistically) but they are useful as a way of getting students and staff to and from the school. As a society, we accept the fact that thousands of students will die every year in car accidents because we understand that's the risk associated with having cars. Just like kids get hurt and even killed in gym class every year but that's the risk associated with having a physical education program.

Each year, no matter what you want to happen, some students will get shot (or knifed, or beaten to death) in school, as will some teachers (and about once every three years a teacher kills a student). This happens regardless of whether or not teachers and students are legally allowed to carry weapons. You seem to be asserting that allowing legal concealed-carry will increase the number of guns in school and consequently increase the associated risk of firearms death. You have yet to establish your minor premises, namely:
A) allowing concealed carry would actually increase the number of guns on campus (I think we couldn't really know if it would or not)
B) as a corollary, you would have to find whether or not the possible presence of concealed-carrying teachers would deter a would-be attacker
C) the population who has concealed-carry permits has behavior patterns similar to those who already take guns to school in contravention of laws and policies -- without this knowledge, it's next to impossible to come up with a meaningful prediction.

The fact is, you probably know people who carry concealed, you just don't know it because you're expecting them to be bible-thumping Branch Davidians who can't keep themselves from shooting someone when they get pissed off.

[DrDan]

203. guns have one purpose - to kill

true, you can use one as a hammer or a paper-weight . . . but its purpose is to kill.

We need not have anything with this singular purpose in a school environment.

Of course, students are killed by cars - but that is a result of an accident - as a car's purpose is certainly not to kill students.

You know that if we allow guns on campus, then the number of guns will increase. How can you be so naive as to not admit this.

No - it is not a matter of an irrational fear of guns. It is admitting to the reality of guns.

Firearms account for about 1.5 percent of fatal accidents. However, that is doubled when considering fatal accident among children. And you can justify introducing more guns into the environment where children are the vast majority?????

The arguments coming from the gun-crazed is much the same as the pit-bull deniers. It's not the gun - it is the uneducated owner. (Tell that to the Grandparent of a 3-year old who is accidently shot upon finding a loaded gun.) It is nothing but a fallacious argument.

It is a shame that we have so many of our population who need a compensation such as a gun to deal with their insecurities.

[Recursion]

204. Guns' purpose is to propel a projectile

Whether that projectile is aimed at a person, an animal, or a paper target is determined by the operator.

Of course, students are killed by cars - but that is a result of an accident

Your implied premise that vehicular homicides are all accidental is false. Both murder and suicide are effected by cars also.

You know that if we allow guns on campus, then the number of guns will increase. How can you be so naive as to not admit this.

Because I have seen no evidence it is true. I also don't think legalizing pot would increase the amount of pot out there. And I think legalizing alcohol probably reduced the amount of alcohol being drunk.

The arguments coming from the gun-crazed is much the same as the pit-bull deniers.

I suppose I'm a "pit-bull denier" too, in that I know enough about dogs to know that there is no such breed and it's a scary-sounding made-up category originally applied to brachyocephalic dogs but gradually expanded to any dog with a vaguely square jaw. Any dog properly raised, trained, and controlled is as safe as any other. Interesting you should mention the "pit bull" scare, because it has so much in common with the "assault weapon" scare (both "pit bull" and "assault weapon" are arbitrary terms used to scare people despite the fact that the things being described are not in any way more dangerous than other dogs or firearms).

Tell that to the Grandparent of a 3-year old who is accidently shot upon finding a loaded gun.

I'd rather tell it to the person who idiotically left a loaded gun lying around as he or she is being sent to jail.

Incidentally, your reference to the "gun-crazed" proves to me yet again that my party is not actually interested in reasonable firearms policy but rather in engaging in a culture war. There is a faction of my party that viscerally and irrationally dislikes guns and gun owners, and they can't seem to keep themselves from wasting our political capital on their Quixotic misadventures.

[DrDan]

207. As I said - and you apparently agree - its purpose is to kill

"Whether that projectile is aimed at a person, an animal, or a paper target is determined by the operator."

The only reason to aim at a paper target is to get more accurate when aiming at a person or animal with the intent to kill.

"Your implied premise that vehicular homicides are all accidental is false. Both murder and suicide are effected by cars also."

c'mon - give me a break. Of course there will be an isolated murder committed via an automobile - but you can't be serious in a claim that the purpose of an automobile is to intentionally kill as it is with a gun. Lets keep the debate real.

"Any dog properly raised, trained, and controlled is as safe as any other"

and I know enough about dogs to know some will be more protective than others - and will react in a more extreme manner. And for a dog-owner not to admit to the additional risk of this behaviour is simple negligence.

"I'd rather tell it to the person who idiotically left a loaded gun lying around as he or she is being sent to jail."

a bit late for the 3-year old at this time - but the gun-owners pat themselves on the back and congratulate each other that the NRA has won one more battle - at a nominal cost.

You are absolutely wrong that I do not want responsible and reasonable firearm policy. I know some enjoy hunting, and while killing is not my idea of a past-time, I recognize others like the feel of control and the smell-of-blood. I am willing to give on this. I also know that there are truly some who hunt to put food on the table - but I feel (no I have no statistics to back this up) these are truly in the minority as compared to the former.

Again - I am sorry and sad that the U.S. is becoming gun-crazed simply to compensate for personal insecurities.

[Recursion]

209. Hunting is a non-issue and frankly a racist codeword

Only 20% or so of gun-owners hunt, specifically rural white gun-owners.

When people in my party say "I'm ok with hunting" what I hear is "I'm ok with rural white people having guns, just not urban minorities". That may not be what you consciously mean but that's what I and a lot of people hear.

The only reason to aim at a paper target is to get more accurate when aiming at a person or animal with the intent to kill.

Well, I aim at paper targets because I want to go to the Olympics, personally (wish me luck...). I also think on balance most of us agree that the fact that cops are armed ultimately saves lives. It's certainly not a "good" outcome for an attacker to be shot, but it's better than that attacker killing someone else.

a bit late for the 3-year old at this time - but the gun-owners pat themselves on the back and congratulate each other that the NRA has won one more battle - at a nominal cost.

I'm not aware of any organization that advocates clemency for people who store firearms unsafely. Are you? Or do you just make assumptions about what the NRA stands for without actually checking?

Again - I am sorry and sad that the U.S. is becoming gun-crazed simply to compensate for personal insecurities.

Ah, the DU Amateur Shrink contingent appears! Please, by all means tell me what else you know about my personality because I own a gun!

I recognize others like the feel of control and the smell-of-blood.

Wow, that one's even worse! The "feel of control" and "smell-of-blood"? Is that why I used to hunt? It had nothing to do with providing venison to a food pantry, or managing the deer population?

[DrDan]

210. well . . .

"When people in my party say "I'm ok with hunting" what I hear is "I'm ok with rural white people having guns, just not urban minorities"

My in-laws (FIL, BILs) are big hunters. They are not rural, but are white. I also recognize that their desire to hunt had more to do with the food vs the thrill-of-the-kill. I previously admitted that I am ok with this, even though I have no desire to do so myself.

"I want to go to the Olympics, personally (wish me luck...)"

ok - I will concede on this. There are those who consider this use of guns to be a sport. And good luck - I mean it. I admire anyone who can do something well enough to represent the U.S. at the Olympics - or even to attempt to qualify to do so.

"do you just make assumptions about what the NRA stands for . . . "

I make assumptions based on public comments from NRA spokespersons. There appears to be no price big enough to "pry this gun from my hands".

"DU Amateur Shrink . . ."

whatever - it is my feeling about most who argue so vehemently against gun control - I make no apologies for it.

"It had nothing to do with providing venison to a food pantry"

Now lets be fair - I admitted there are those who actually hunt for food. However, I also believe there are those who hunt who couldn't care less whether they had the meat or not - they love the thrill-of-a-kill

[Recursion]

249. How many hunters have you spent time with?

However, I also believe there are those who hunt who couldn't care less whether they had the meat or not - they love the thrill-of-a-kill

*shrug*

I've been around hunters all my life and never met somebody who did it for the "thrill" of killing.

whatever - it is my feeling about most who argue so vehemently against gun control - I make no apologies for it.

Why not get to know some gun owners and find out why you're wrong and why our party keeps alienating us?

[raccoon]

211. "Hunting is a non-issue and frankly a racist codeword"

Maybe that's YOUR experience.

[benEzra]

218. How do you feel about armed security guards in schools? (n/t)

[immoderate]

113. Remember, you only have to shoot one of them.

And the rest will behave all term :)

--IMM

[devilgrrl]

115. Just as long as students can too.

:shrug:

[ManiacJoe]

120. Since students cannot get concealed weapons permits,

they don't get to carry anywhere.

[devilgrrl]

144. Then who will protect them from the teachers?

eom

[ManiacJoe]

157. The principal and vice principals.

Just as they do now.
Do the students need protecting from the teachers? If so, why have the teachers not been fired already?

[devilgrrl]

177. What if the janitor is packing heat too? How about the lunch ladies?

Everyone should be armed - makes everyone safer.

:popcorn:

[ManiacJoe]

178. In general, yes it does.

Why not let them be armed, too, if they pass all the same background checks, etc, that the teachers would need to pass?

[devilgrrl]

193. Does every nation on earth having nukes keep us safer too?

:popcorn:

[Recursion]

202. There's definitely a school of thought that says yes

And we haven't had any direct superpower-on-superpower world wars since we all went nuclear, so I'm not going to dismiss that argument out of hand.

[devilgrrl]

215. We haven't been attacked since 9/11 either, should we assume that * is indeed protecting us?

:popcorn:

[Recursion]

223. I seem to recall attacks since 9/11

Anthrax, for instance. I didn't say Dulles was right that nuclear weapons are the greatest guarantors of world peace in history, just that we can't dismiss that argument out of hand. I also don't dismiss out of hand *'s argument that he's keeping us safe, I just find the evidence is to the contrary.

[devilgrrl]

224. I hear that using marijuana will lead to harder drugs - is there evidence to the contrary?

:popcorn:

[Recursion]

228. "lead to" is a problematic term

There is evidence that certain risky behavior (smoking tobacco or pot, for instance) is associated with other risky behavior (doing heroin, for instance), but "lead to" seems to imply causality; I have not seen any convincing studies that preventing marijuana use prevents use of "harder" drugs. Those studies may exist; I just haven't seen them.

Now, I can say anecdotally that pot provides a market access to "harder" drugs -- most people won't do a line with someone, or sell them an 8 ball, if that person won't smoke up with them. So in that sense yes, though it strikes me that is a distortion caused by the illegality of drugs.

[Quantess]

194. Give me a f****** break.

So, you're saying that everyone working at school needs a concealed gun at all times, even the countless thousands who have undiagnosed mental illnesses.

The alternative is to have good security at the main doors of the school. And, if there is a person who is potentially a threat, such as this estranged ex-husband, then, alert everyone on staff to keep an eye out for him, and prevent him from entering.

Which alternative do you think sounds more plausible?

[ManiacJoe]

254. You seem to be confusing "allowed" with "required".

Every does not "need" a concealed gun. Everyone should be allowed to make the choice.

Armed security at the doors is an excellent first line of defense, if your school happens to work that way. Armed, screened adults is the next best thing.

[slackmaster]

121. I don't know of any state that issues CCW permits to people under 21

That is the federal minimum age to purchase a handgun (from a federally licensed firearms dealer).

[devilgrrl]

145. Then what should a student do to protect themself from a crazed gun-toting teacher?

Whoever wants this assumes that all teachers are playing with a full deck.

[slackmaster]

155. Reminds me of the "crazed gun-toting airline pilots" argument against arms in the cockpit

If you can trust someone to fly a plane or take care of your child all day, why wouldn't you trust them with a gun?

[Quantess]

197. That's sort of funny. I appreciate your humor.

But it is clear that you haven't worked with children, have you? There is really no place for guns, when you're around children. And, no I am not one of those "oh for the sake of the CHILDREN" types.

I don't have kids. And I taught school in Elementary and High school grades.

[slackmaster]

Is it because you think the presence of children makes having a gun more dangerous?

Like having pressurized gas cylinders around? If so you may well be right, I don't know.

[Recursion]

241. Not sure why you say that

There is really no place for guns, when you're around children.

:wtf:

I was introduced to safe firearms handling at age 6, taught the weapons safety rules, taught positive control of the weapon, etc. A few years later I was taught proper firing stances and carries, by age 10 I was shooting fairly regularly.

People only think there is no place for guns around children because we have a generation of adults largely ignorant of guns who have passed that ignorance on to their kids.

[ManiacJoe]

161. It would certainly be safe to say

that if a teacher meets your definition of crazed, the principal is not going to give permission for them to carry since he is just as likely, if not more, to be shot as the students.

[Quantess]

198. Hey lil' buddy...

Have you ever heard the advice to listen more and speak less?
Or even, read more and post less, until you gain more knowledge and experience... Yes, that means you.
:)

I probably sound like a complete hag, but, you would be wise to take my advice.

[devilgrrl]

216. If you didn't know a thing about Ted Bundy, would you have thought of him as "crazed"?

Everyone around him thought he was just swell. Who would have thought he was such a monster? He looked so normal! :wow:


:popcorn:

[JerseygirlCT]

123. No, no and no.

Guns should never, ever be allowed in a school.

What a stupid idea.

[slackmaster]

124. Given that they aren't allowed in Oregon schools now,

Why do you think Ms. Doe is concerned about an armed person coming to attack her at work?

Could it be that she is afraid her violent, estranged ex might not obey the law?

[Quantess]

199. Do you REALLY think it's a good idea for her to be armed?

Also, have you considered the idea about making the main entrances more secure, and to warn everyone in the school that Ms. Doe's ex husband might be a homicidal maniac?

I know it's fun to be contrary on DU.

[Recursion]

205. On July 24 1998...

...a gunman shot his way into the US Capitol past 2 armed guards and 2 metal detectors. The only reason this didn't become a VA Tech-type slaughter is that our legislators did not declare the Capitol a "gun-free zone" and had more armed guards. One guard, mortally wounded, managed to non-lethally disable the attacker with his gun (the attacker is still in a mental hospital, incidentally). Because of this attack, Congress is building the "visitor's center" (whose main effect seems to be keeping visitors away from the Capitol); the result of this is that if God forbid there is another such shooting, it will be in much the same circumstances but it will happen farther from the legislators.

J. Random Public School will not be able to approach the security level in the US Capitol. Thinking in terms of a campus with no guns on it as naive as thinking of a campus with no pot on it. The physical control required to make either of those happen is rarely possible, and when possible it's odious and incompatible with a free and liberal society.

Having a "more secure entrance" to the school means her estranged and abusive ex-husband will have to shoot or subdue a rent-a-cop to get to her, and while I don't know the man in question it's not difficult to imagine he's someone who, having decided to kill his ex-wife, wouldn't have much trouble adding a rent-a-cop to the charge sheet too.

Come to think of it, it's also not difficult to imagine that a lot of people wouldn't want the guards armed for the same reason they don't want teachers armed (and, come to think of it, I'd trust most teachers I know with a gun sooner than I would trust most security guards). So then it becomes much, much easier for the estranged and abusive ex-husband to subdue the gunless rent-a-cop, because few people want to die for $7 an hour.

[slackmaster]

229. I have no opinion as to whether it's a good idea for her to arm herself

My opinion is that she should have the power to make that decision for herself, and she should take responsibility for the consequences of her decision.

Also, have you considered the idea about making the main entrances more secure, and to warn everyone in the school that Ms. Doe's ex husband might be a homicidal maniac?

That was not been presented as an alternative in the OP, and I have to note that the two ideas (what you wrote plus Ms. Doe arming herself) are not mutually exclusive.

I know it's fun to be contrary on DU.

Roger that. :toast:

[Recursion]

128. If they have a concealed-carry license, yes

Concealed carry licensees have a lower crime rate in aggregate than police do*. If we let police have guns in school, why not an even safer group of people?

*ON EDIT: OK, that's a bit unfair in that it does not balance for gender (men commit most crimes, and men are most cops, while CC licensees are very nearly evenly split by sex). But then again that bias doesn't matter since it's just a question of teachers with licenses vs. cops -- the cops are statistically more likely to commit a crime than the licensed teachers. So why the rush to let cops have weapons when they are a less safe population?

[SayWhatYo]

129. I don't like the idea of introducing guns into classrooms.

This isn't a knee-jerk anit-gun reaction either. I tend to think that it would be increase the chance of guns getting into the wrong hands, perhaps someone who wouldn't usually have access to weapons... Not to mention the fact that adults(the teachers) some times snap too. Why make it easier for some spur of the moment rage to turn violent?

[Recursion]

134. Just like all the road-rage shootings we were warned about that never happened?

As sane conceal-carry laws are finally overcoming the Jim-Crow-era racist gun restrictions around the country, we have been warned for decades that there would be shootings for parking spaces, over road rage, etc.

It hasn't happened

The high-profile (but frankly statistically insignificant) mass shootings like Columbine or VPISU all share a common fact, too: they happened on a "gun-free" campus.

Something tells me that like Klebold or Cho, Ms. "Doe's" husband will most likely ignore the policy forbidding him to carry a gun on campus.

[bigwillq]

130. I say no

I think we need to do a better job with security across the board....I am all for more cameras, metal detectors at entrances...more PEOPLE around to monitor visitors, etc.....

I work at a newspaper and cover mostly high school sports, and it's amazing that I could just walk right into any school without anyone saying anything (I am only 5-foot-3, so sometimes I think people think I am just a student!).

Where the hell is the security? :shrug:

[dsc]

138. For those who favor this

why not let 18 year old students carry as well? Under the theory here any adult should be permitted to carry in the schools. Not only do many seniors turn 18 but other grades also have 18 year olds in them. I was supposed to have an 18 year old freshman in one of my classes but she didn't show up.

[Recursion]

139. Given that they drive to school and kill plenty of each other that way...

...I don't see why a properly licensed 18-year-old student (in a state that gives 18-year-olds concealed-carry permits) shouldn't be allowed to carry in school.

If you trust her with car keys, why not a gun? The car is orders of magnitude deadlier.

By way of anecdote, I went to high school during the zenith of this nation's violent crime rate ('90-'94). While I was there, my high school of about 1200 students lost 7 to car accidents, and 1 to a shooting (and that was an accidental self-shooting).

[dsc]

140. wow

So you would be perfectly OK with you or your significant other teaching a class full of 18 year old freshmen armed with guns? Wow, just wow.

[Recursion]

141. I drive on the streets they drive on

They're much more likely to slam into me with their car than shoot me. I just don't see it as an issue, really, if they've had the proper training and licensing; I trust them with car keys so I don't see why I wouldn't trust them with a gun.

[Recursion]

142. Another thought

What would you say to an 18-year-old whose boyfriend/stalker/abusive father/abusive uncle/whatever had made threats against her. Will the school protect her? Columbine and VPISU didn't protect the students from a mass shooting; thousands of schools don't protect students from more "ordinary" murders like the situation I just mentioned -- why will you put her in an unsafe situation and then deny her the right to defend herself?

Hell, 18 year olds have the franchise, and I can't think of anything deadlier than that...

[raccoon]

212. Give me a break!

"Hell, 18 year olds have the franchise, and I can't think of anything deadlier than that... "

[Recursion]

214. Let me state something like the converse, and more concretely

If Gore had distanced himself from the mendacious "assault weapons ban" in 2000, he would have carried Tennessee, and probably West Virginia too. But his sticking by that pointless and dishonest law* made the election close enough that KKKarl could steal it. And if Gephardt hadn't made the AWB a loyalty check, we probably would have kept the House in '94. I'm saying that gun control laws kill people primarily because they get Republicans elected. Ask yourself how many people that has killed.

As to my original point, I do believe the pen is mightier than the sword and the ballot box is more powerful than the ammo box. Since I trust 18-year-olds enough to let them vote, I can't imagine it's more dangerous to let them

* and let me shout from the rooftops that what made so many people so mad about the assault weapons ban is the fact that legislators and the media would -- either through ignorance of firearms or actual mendacity -- state outright factual untruths about the law, constantly. How many times have you seen a CNN story about "assault weapons" that had stock footage of a fully-automatic weapon firing? That drives those of us who know about firearms up a wall. Our party has -- and frankly has earned -- a reputation as a bunch of people who pass laws about guns without bothering to learn the first thing about them.

[ManiacJoe]

159. The part about being 18 and having

a concealed weapons permit is not necessarily a bad thing on a case by case basis. However, the fact that they are still high school students is a pretty good indicator that they are not quite ready for that level of responsibility as a whole.

[Recursion]

168. They vote, no?

That can kill a lot more people than a gun.

[ManiacJoe]

179. Not directly. (n/t)

[Recursion]

181. I'm sure 3/4 of a million Iraqis are relieved they're only "indirectly" dead...

I'm serious: there's nothing more dangerous than the franchise, and we give that to 18-year-olds.

[ManiacJoe]

186. "Indirectly" does not apply to "dead".

"Indirectly" applys to "kills". John gets to indirectly kill by voting for others to do it. John gets to directly kill by shooting/stabbing/hitting.

We get to temper John's inexperienced vote by diluting his vote with everyone else's vote.

[Recursion]

208. OK, let's apply that to both sides

ca. 100,000,000 votes cast in 2000 and ca. 1,000,000 dead from that, that comes to about 1/100th of a death per voter
ca. 200,000,000 guns in the US, in the past 6 years and ca 200,000 dead from firearms in that time, that comes to about 1/1000th of a death per gun

Votes are an order of magnitude more deadly than guns.

[raccoon]

213. Oh, you sound as if the AMERICAN PEOPLE voted to invade Iraq.

The Bush admin wanted to invade Iraq from the get-go.

If you believe the Iraq invasion was the will of the American people, you are quite misinformed.

[and-justice-for-all]

153. Non lethal heat..nt

[Recursion]

170. Anything can be lethal

Hell, more people in the US are murdered every year by bare hands and feet than by "evil assault weapons". And as about a thousand videos posted here show, cops, at least, seem much more willing to recklessly use "non-lethal" (except for the people they end up killing) tasers than they are with guns.

It's kind of like cars. If you have a drivers license and a registered car you tend to be pretty careful with it; similarly, if you're a concealed-carry licensee, the state knows what gun you are carrying.

[cgrindley]

160. Yes, absolutely (nt)

[1320crusier]

165. gun issue

well gun free certainingly hasnt solved anything in school zones, in england, in ausralia... being able to defend ones self is a right. the police are humn too and will not always be there. end of story.

[pitohui]

183. this woman has a right to self defense

i don't understand how they can withhold this from her

as always a woman's life is considered of little value

"think of the children," better a child see his teacher gunned down in the classroom than to have her able to defend herself ???

do they not understand that the fuckwit ex will KNOW she is without a weapon at work and that they are drawing a threat right onto school property?


even if they don't give a fuck about her life, which they obviously don't, what about the chance of this guy gunning down half a classroom of witnesses while he's at it? since he will KNOW everyone there is unarmed? and if he's that crazy and making a suicide by cop play aftering killing his ex, why not go out on the evening news instead of the back pages?

[jpgray]

195. School shootings are so rare that increased number of guns would be more risk than protection

Against the astronomical odds that a school shooting would occur at -any- school, you have the constant risk that the gun would be improperly stored and/or improperly used. Cops get training all the time in appropriate use of force and analysis of hostile situations, and they get it wrong -all- the time. You'd expect a teacher to do better? Gun owners who slip up in securing their weapons cause a plague of accidental shootings. Would you say that is less of a risk than the astronomical chance of a school shooting occurring?

[Recursion]

201. This isn't about a "school shooting", it's about an estranged, abusive ex-husband

Those kinds of shootings are depressingly common in all workplaces, schools included.

[pitohui]

247. jpgray, you do not understand statistics and how they are properly used

the odds against a RANDOM school shooting that happens to be at your school are astronomical -- sure, we agree, but that fact has no relevance to this specific case where randomness is completely irrelevant

the odds of a TARGETED school shooting, when the woman is already being stalked by her ex, who knows that she cannot bring her weapon to school, are MUCH higher -- in fact, if i were the ex, it's the place i would choose to take her out, assuming that after i kill my ex i plan to kill myself as well (a common event, sad to say, in southeast louisiana -- not all ex/spouse killers have the decency to suicide themselves after but a great many do)

my better half always reminds me that the human brain can't understand randomness, and you make the very common, very human mistake of conflating a random event with a targeted event

if the teacher wanted a conceal carry license because she saw "bowling for columbine" and got freaked out by school violence and was convinced there were reds under the bed waiting to blow her brains out...i'd have no problem denying the license

however, this teacher wants the conceal carry because she is KNOWN target of a violent man who has threatened not just her life but the lives of her children, so as far as she can know, he may have no limit and be perfectly willing to use what smarts he has to take her out in an arena where she is not able to fight back

if you wanted to kill somebody, you'd look for the easy kill, you wouldn't look for a "fair fight," and in this case, since it is well known the teachers are not allowed to bring guns to school even if licensed in this district, the school is logical place to stalk and kill this woman

i'd probably take her out in the parking lot myself, i think the greatest moment of danger is entering/leaving the school and getting to her car -- she is out of the school building and he doesn't have to get inside, but she still doesn't yet have access to her gun

think about it for a little while and you'll see the reasoning here

yeah, i guess you can tell i was stalked and had to learn how they think -- and yes being stalked cost me my job, you cannot work when the predator knows where you will be and you do not have a weapon

it's a shame that we still don't take threats against women seriously today in 2007

a woman is killed every day by an ex, this is hardly a rare event like columbine

[jpgray]

266. But this case will impact rulings on gun rights in schools all over. It doesn't exist in a vacuum

Nobody deserves to be stalked, but I'm talking about the implications of a ruling that allows CCW permit-holders to have guns on school grounds. Do you think it's likely this case will be seen as an isolated aberration, or do you think people will use it to push for allowing other CCW permit folks the right to carry concealed in schools? I agree a definite threat is different from a threat that isn't readily identifiable, but I guess I'm taking this out to its logical conclusion--if Jane Doe gets her permit honored on school grounds, what right do we have from excluding others?

[Quantess]

200. I remember that you are a man.

But, I see you disabled your profile.

[pitohui]

250. i am a woman and have been a victim of domestic violence and stalking

as a result i have never had a profile to disable

and i take it seriously when a fucker stalkwit threatens a woman, her children, and her job

so you know where i'm coming from

given my history i have to lean in favor of the woman being able to defend herself effectively

[jpgray]

192. Nope. Risk of shooting in a school is astronomically low, unless you place lots of guns in situ!

Then possibilities go up. Careless storage, undiagnosed mental instability, etc. Also, police and other security forces have a lot of training to deal with a hostile situation and use appropriate force and they get it wrong. All the time. Imagine someone without that training having that deadly force at arm's reach? Not a good idea, because the risk is statistically miniscule and adding guns to the situation will add more constant, substantial risk.

[Recursion]

206. One nitpick...

police and other security forces have a lot of training to deal with a hostile situation

Well, actually most of them don't, and most don't have a lot of firearms training. Sure, SWAT teams are at roughly a military level of firearms training, but in many departments your average beat cop goes to the range once a year, barely makes qual, and holsters his weapon for another 364 days.

[benEzra]

222. What if you require teachers who wish to carry to pass the same quals as

armed school security or your local police officers, and receive additional training above and beyond that required of ordinary CHL holders?

For most CHL holders I know, passing local law enforcement quals would be a breeze, never mind whatever passes for qualification at your local security firm. If I were a teacher, I wouldn't mind the extra training, myself.

[jpgray]

243. Would that counteract the risk, though? Responsible gun owners are never the problem

But I'm just saying the risk of a school shooting in isolation is extremely low. Guns being constantly in the school provides a constant increased risk to deal with a problem that happens very, very rarely. Does the risk of more guns on campus/school grounds outweigh the protective value in the rare event of a school shooting?

[Recursion]

244. She wants the gun because of her ex-husband

She's not worried about mass school shootings, she's worried about her ex-husband, who has threatened her and her family, coming to kill her.

[jpgray]

245. But isn't this about allowing CCW permits on campus/in schools?

Or do you not support that, and only want this exceptional case to be dealt with?

[Recursion]

246. I think the title "should teachers pack heat" is ridiculous

This is not a question about some policy of arming teachers, it's a question about someone who has apparently convinced local law enforcement that she needs a gun for her and her children's protection.

I think, in general, teachers should not check their Constitutional rights at the schoolhouse door, but I don't exactly think there's a clamoring among teachers for the ability to be armed. If I thought we were actually facing the prospect of a large number of teachers starting to take weapons on campus, it might be a different issue.

[jpgray]

248. Well, I'm speaking to the larger issue as opposed to the individual case

Not that I'm railing against an imaginary law that would somehow make arming teachers compulsory, but just speculating on the added risk vs. the potential benefits of CCW permits being allowed on campus or at school. Sorry if not speaking to the specific case makes this off-topic, but I figured the discussion fits in well enough.

[pitohui]

251. gray, this is not a situation "in isolation"

why do you keep arguing this straw man? the woman is being stalked, it is irrelevant that her risk of being a victim of a random school shooter is low, her risk of being a victim of her abusive stalker ex, who has threatened her in so many words, is quite high

[jpgray]

252. If we allow this woman to exercise her CCW permit, on what basis do we deny those of others?

The thread raised the larger issue, so that's what I responded to. I can't make a judgment in this woman's case because I don't know all the facts of her circumstances, nor have I seen any data on what indeed works best to deter a violent end to this sort of situation. Can the court rule that just Jane Doe gets to pack heat in school? Or does it open the door for all?

[ManiacJoe]

258. We should not deny the other CCW holders.

There is nothing that makes schools special so that a CCW holder is more likely to shoot someone there than anywhere else. In fact, the exact opposite is true; the chances of needing to shoot someone are far less at a school compared to other places.

[jpgray]

259. Aren't there are certain situations that ask for higher security, like say, planes/airports?

Do you support allowance of concealed weapons under those circumstances? Do you agree that the presence of a gun adds risk of misuse, however small, to the school that wouldn't be present -without- the gun?

[ManiacJoe]

263. Absolutely, there are situations that ask for higher security.

And in those situations, for example planes and courthouses, you have armed guards disarming everyone and assuming the roll of active protectors.

Logic dictates that the presence of a gun includes the risk of misuse, just as any object does. However, the risk of misuse is incredibly small for the folks willing to jump through all the legal hoops to acquire a concealed carry permit. However, if the low probability situation comes up where such a person needs to defend herself or those in her care, having the option to use the gun may save lives. There are no guarantees in life, except for taxes....

I support the disarming of everyone at the courthouse due to (1) it being a place of guaranteed conflict, (2) everyone is disarmed, and (3) the guards are active protectors. I do not support the disarming of passengers at airports because the area is not actually secured, but just for show, and there are no/not-enough active protectors in the planes. (And, yes, I have a concealed carry permit.)

[benEzra]

253. How many school security guards have gone on shooting rampages in the last 20 years?

I agree with you that the risk of school shootings is very, very low. I also think that allowing qualified, licensed school staff--with police/security-level training, if you wish--poses negligible risk, and a net safety benefit, albeit against a risk that is already very low.

Again, I don't think anyone is arguing that every teacher should carry a gun. But I think staff who are eminently qualified to do so should be allowed to do so.

[jpgray]

256. On that note, aren't something like 12% of law enforcment officers killed killed with their own gun?

Not to say a school provides the same range of dangerous situations as law enforcement, but the risks aren't limited to shooting rampages. Misreading a situation, storing or securing the weapon improperly--lots of chances for misuse. The risks aren't extremely high, but they are added risks. The question would be whether the benefits outweigh the added risks. And that's going to be hard to quantify.

[benEzra]

260. True. Part of that stems from the fact that LEO's usually carry openly...

with the gun right out there visible and in easy reach, and are often required to grapple with suspects. Retention holsters can help, but aren't foolproof.

You raise an excellent point, and I think that an "armed school staff" program should include extra training on topics such as good concealment, holster selection, weapon retention, discretion, and tactics. Ideally, no one not already "in the know" should ever know that a staff member is armed. Personally, I have been licensed to carry for well over a decade and to my knowledge have never been "made," but it does take a bit of forethought.

I do believe that this issue is not nearly as cut-and-dried as either side tries to make it, but I think there is reasonable middle ground.

[Name removed]

272. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

237. I suggest you read the article cited in the OP

This thread isn't about placing "lots of guns in situ".

[jpgray]

242. Are we arguing schools shouldn't be an exception to concealed carry laws or not?

[Greyhound]

219. Anybody should be allowed to carry whatever they want, it is when it is used

that it becomes an issue.

All of these "preemptive" measures are one the major forces moving us down the road to totalitarianism.

[BlooInBloo]

221. Hell - *cops* taze pregnant women, diabetics-in-seizure, and political activists...

... And they want to give lethal weaponry to *teachers* to use professionally? Gimme a break.

It'll never happen, of course. The liability issues will be a hurdle to great for the dumbfucks to overcome.

[moondust]

225. Ha!

No question that would potentially create FAR more problems than it would ever solve which is exactly what the schools do not need.

[Recursion]

230. What do you suggest for "Ms. Doe", then?

She carries a concealed weapon because her estranged ex-husband has threatened her and her children. What do you recommend she do?

[moondust]

257. She's not helpless.

I'm sure this isn't the first time this has ever happened. There are laws to protect people like this from threatening behavior. She needs to contact the sheriff/police and if necessary they can pay the asshole a visit and let him know what kind of trouble he is in for if he gets anywhere near her or the children. That's probably routine for the sheriff's office. I'm sure they can escalate from there.

This is likely the NRA, etc., trying to set a precedent after which there will be others like her who want to take law enforcement into their own hands. Vigilantism. It's a mistake.

[Recursion]

267. No dice

I'm sure this isn't the first time this has ever happened. There are laws to protect people like this from threatening behavior.

Yeah, and several hundred women are murdered each year by a spouse or lover.

The laws aren't protecting them. And now people want more laws to prevent them from protecting themselves. Awesome.

[moondust]

273. Several hundred?

I don't know where you get your numbers but I have no doubt that that number is but a fraction of the number of women successfully protected by laws and sheriff's departments each year. And that "several hundred" could be near zero if the U.S. could simply break the adolescent gun fever that grips it.

[Recursion]

274. I was understating; this Harvard study puts it at thousands in 2002 alone

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/2002-releases/press04172002.html

In 2002, ~4000 women were murdered, about half of them by an intimate, and about half of those by firearms. So if we assume we could effect an absolute firearms ban, and that those intimates who used guns would not use another method, and that women having firearms deters 0 homicides, it would prevent one half of the homicides of women by intimates, which themselves are about one half of the homicides of women.

if the U.S. could simply break the adolescent gun fever that grips it.

I don't consider a woman's desire to defend her body and family from an abusive ex-husband as "adolescent". Do you?

[slackmaster]

238. Read the article cited in the OP

This case is not about solving any of the school's problems.

[The Wielding Truth]

226. No no no and no.

Guns in schools = Kids getting shot

[benEzra]

255. Do you oppose armed school security? Police officers assigned to the school?

If so, why not school staff with equivalent training and equally stringent background/mental health checks?

IMHO, guns in the wrong hands in school = kids getting shot.

[The Wielding Truth]

265. Not school staff. They have enough responsibility, but

Police officers are reasonable.

[Recursion]

269. Police officers have a higher crime rate than teachers, in aggregate

Why would you want those more likely to be criminal to be armed and those less likely to be criminal to be unarmed? That seems backwards to me.

[The Wielding Truth]

271. I have known many peace officers and if anyone should be

used for security I think it should be a person responsible for knowing and carrying out the law.

You could always get the Barney Fife or swat-team type but if you need security I would go with someone who has to get through some training and accountability.

[CRK7376]

261. HELL NO!!!!

That's just a disaster waiting to happen. What happens when their weapon is left in a bathroom stall or a kids yanks it out of her purse....DISASTER! Then to read the bottom portion of the posting...teachers trained as part of the school security force....SHUDDER!!!!

[Hoof Hearted]

270. You know, I've had TWO instructors have total nervous breakdowns at work, so NO

Once was in high school, the other college.

I'd hate to think of how ugly that could have gotten, especially since the one in high school was totally paranoid and ordered us all under our desks?