DUers: Read this RE: Kerry/Taser situation for some perspective...

[MessiahRp]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/18/125041/427

OK, here’s John Kerry’s official statement:

"In 37 years of public appearances, through wars, protests and highly emotional events, I have never had a dialogue end this way. I believe I could have handled the situation without interruption, but I do not know what warnings or other exchanges transpired between the young man and the police prior to his barging to the front of the line and their intervention. I asked the police to allow me to answer the question and was in the process of answering him when he was taken into custody. I was not aware that a taser was used until after I left the building. I hope that neither the student nor any of the police were injured. I regret enormously that a good healthy discussion was interrupted."

Now, to the narrative as I got it from JK and a couple others who were there ... First, the preamble to the video (much of this closely tracks to this diary) ... there was a long line of people waiting to ask questions, and Meyer was near the back. He rushed up to the mic, butting up past many, many kids and making a scene. Apparently he’d been talking with the police and they were arguing long before Meyer ever got to the mic (reports from Florida are that they threatened him with arrest already). That’s why there are police in the video when you first see it. They tried to remove him before he said anything, but JK intervened, calling them off and saying he’d answer his question. Remember, back in 2004, there was a lot of press about how open the Kerry campaign was to outside questioners and even protesters, especially compared with the hermetically sealed Bush campaign. JK’s done thousands of these events, really enjoys them (he told me once that doing Q&As with regular citizens is the best part of his job), and he’s totally comfortable dealing with disruptive people. So he made sure to call the U of F police off. Which, technically, he had no authority to do, since this was a U of F event, not a Kerry event. They were their police.

-snip-

Part way through, JK asked him for an actual question because there were still others waiting and time was running short. (Kerry’d been taking questions for a solid 45 minutes.) These kinds of events put on by universities are difficult because Senator Kerry wants to get as many questions in as possible, and there are always A LOT of people waiting. So, the kid kept going, JK was listening respectfully, and then the mic was cut off (either because whoever was in charge of the mic thought he was just ranting about whatever came to mind or because the U of F folks didn’t like the word "blowjob" ... I have no idea), and the police tried to move him away from the mic. At this point, Kerry keeps trying to answer the kid’s questions and restore calm. He told me that at this point he wanted to make sure to maintain calm in the room as much as possible (these kinds of events can get out of control in a crowd, and he didn’t want that), and he told the police he was happy to answer the question. As he said in the statement and as he told me, he thinks he could’ve handled the whole thing without interruption. Unfortunately, things went downhill from there.

Meyer was pulled into the back of the room and the real scuffling began. From the stage, JK couldn’t see what was going on at all (it was a huge room.) So he tried to move things forward, giving the question of voting rights the respect it deserves and trying to answer his question. He had no idea what kind of scuffle was going on, who was doing what to whom, and was as surprised as anyone when the kid started screaming. He had no idea the kid was tasered until later.


This seems to put the whole thing in perspective and lets everyone know the truth behind the situation. Hopefully many of you will begin to see that Kerry did nothing wrong here.

Rp

[TwilightZone]

1. I doubt that anything is going to convince some people that Kerry did what he could.

Actually understanding the big picture doesn't really fit the agenda.

[bos1]

54. Kerry did everything right. But everyone else should be ashamed

especially the cops, the crowd that applauded as the young man was dragged off, and the DUers who praised the tasering.

[Mugsy]

89. This is BS.

What's wrong with this statement?:

"Apparently he’d been talking with the police and they were arguing long before Meyer ever got to the mic (reports from Florida are that they threatened him with arrest already). That’s why there are police in the video when you first see it."

"He was ALREADY talking to the police"? Why? Then he "barged to the front of the line"? Kerry said he was ending the session with people still waiting in line to ask him questions. Considering that I have the same questions as that kid, I might of jumped the line myself if Kerry was about to leave before anyone could ask him.

While some can argue Kerry couldn't SEE what was happening, there is no question he HEARD what was happening. There was a commotion, and SCREAMING. At one point, Kerry stopped speaking because of it. Never did he ask what the commotion was or what happened to the kid who was in the middle of asking him a question.

Sorry, I just don't accept Kerry's lame answer or empty apology.

[JFN1]

91. IMAGE, PEOPLE, IMAGE!

Must keep up appearances! The truth is, this kid was violated and brutalized, this happened right in front of Senator Kerry, who stood like a deer in the headlights (great leadership) while this kid's rights (and various body parts) were stomped on by our professional, competent, compassionate, Constitution-loving police.

So accept Kerry's lame explanation for this if you so choose. As for me, I stopped believing what comes out of politician's mouths a long time ago, for nearly EVERYTHING THEY SAY AND DO is first run through an 'image' filter, unless their humanity gets the best of them. I prefer to depend on my senses, and sense, thank you. If Kerry (or his people, or both) can make it LOOK like Kerry was a victim here, too, then how can Kerry possibly LOOK bad?

TRUTH BE DAMNED!! IMAGE, PEOPLE, IMAGE!!

[immoderate]

100. It would be crazy for Kerry to try to take authority from police.

Too many Harrison Ford movies.

Kerry had NO IDEA of what he'd be getting into, and did the wise thing.

Should he turn the crowd on the police? What are the chances the volatile situation would be exacerbated? Does Kerry, a Senator, want to start a brawl, much less be in the middle of it?

Edit for past perfect tense.

--IMM

[immoderate]

101. Scenario: Senator Kerry leaps from the stage into the mosh pit, giving new meaning to "supporters.."

The intrepid Senator makes way through the stampeding crowd so he can coolly observe the situation.

A campus cop makes a false move and Kerry drops him with a round house kick. He staves off the surge of the crowd with a call for reason. He helps the cop he decked to his feet with a "Forget it, you were just doing your job."

Kerry says to the kid, "I'll hold them off, while you get away..." and he pulls out the latest TURBO-Taser!

** Write your ending here. **

--IMM

[rfranklin]

103. B.S. on you...holding Kerry responsible is idiotic...

Of course if he had been an NRA member he could have pulled his weapon and plugged the cops.

[jkshaw]

2. Thank you Rp

Your post is much needed.

[rwheeler31]

3. Thank you for this,

Randi has gone off the rails on this incident.

[MessiahRp]

6. Precisely why I don't listen to her

I always found her reactionary and her shouting people down does her credibility or the issues she supports no favors. In this case I don't believe she has the full story and she's spouting off only partially informed thus making her look like a fool.

Rp

[MH1]

12. I hope some people will call her and ask for a retraction

I wonder if she would give one.

[Felinity]

9. Absolutely K&R

When Randi is wrong, she stays wrong.

[JDPriestly]

36. Randi will apologize if she is wrong.

Kerry should have taken a stronger hand to protect the guy's speech rights yesterday, however, he has explained why he did not do so today. Most important, he has affirmed the young man's right to speak freely. Kerry is doing the right thing now. I'm sure Randi will acknowledge that as I do. I was very upset at the video because I believe that if this young man can be tasered for exercising his right to free speech, so can I, and you and anyone else who is adjudged of just having spoken out of turn or too loudly. Those are not crime. There is a difference between being rude and committing a crime. A huge one. Kerry has acknowledged that, and that difference is what is important here.

[PhilipDC]

81. Randi

She was embarrassing yesterday. Screaming over people, not letting anyone really get their point across, and saying she was ashamed of some of the listeners. I was ashamed of her for misrepresenting what actually happened. She kept going on about political speech, completely ignoring that this guy took away the rights of the others in line. He didn't get arrested for what he said; he got arrested for resisting the police when they try to escort him out (rather gently at first by the way). They probably could have gotten him out w/o the tazer, but Mr. Performance Artist didn't obey their commands to put his hands together to be cuffed after he clearly resisted them physically.

[wryter2000]

113. She's on it again today

I love Randi, but there are other things going on in the world. She doesn't need to spend two whole days on it.

[TwilightZone]

4. K&R.

Sadly, I don't think this thread is going to get as much attention as it deserves.

[politicasista]

5. K&R

:kick:

[kimmerspixelated]

7. I hope I helped to kick this to the front page.

A good perspective. Thanks.

[AuntPatsy]

8. It still won't matter to those wishing to malign Sen kerry sad as the truth may be.

But this is perhaps the one that should be getting more attention than it seems to have had.

[truckin]

123. I like Kerry and campaigned for him early in the 2004 primary.

I do not wish to malign him. It is not his fault that the kid got tasered. But after viewing the video, I believe that he handled the situation poorly. If he forcefully told the cops to back aff as soon as they grabbed him the situation may have been averted. He should not have gotten physical but if he forcefully told the cops to stop as soon as they stepped in and it still played out the way it did I would give him a pass.

It just seems to me from the video that Kerry was not too anxious to answer those questions.

[stillcool]

10. what a great post...

for me to happen upon. I missed all the hubbub, and was just wading through the aftershocks. Now I don't have to bother...thank you!

[Cetacea]

11. Thank you. K+R eom.

[Minimus]

13. Thanks for posting this. I could not believe the number of people that jumped to conclusions

based on the videos of the incident.

Unless I actually witness something in-person, I try to withhold judgement.

[karynnj]

14. K & R

To get the OP seen

[TheMadMonk]

15. One thing I noticed was how the disruptor "managed" the encounter.

Every time the police contained him, he would carefully "demonstrate" his lack of resistance, and then do something to force the cops to work a little harder at restraining him. And he did this not once but several times, culminating with a "Please don't Tase me." that Brer Rabbit himself could not have bettered.

Police brutality is very real.

THIS was not police brutality.

This was a disruptive idiot deliberately goading the police into using the bare minimum force necessary to restrain him. And then doing it again. And again. So as to make it appear that the police were spiraling out of control.

Those cops were very aware of WHO was up on the stage and acted accordingly. They restrained themselves with this idiot, and as a result he was able to partially escape their control on multiple occasions and escalate the confrontation.

[truedelphi]

92. Oh Baloney! Even if you carefully orchestrate some actions

That does not entitle the police to taser you.

What if he had screamed: "Please don't kill me! I mean, just don't kill me!"

By your reasoning then they get to kill you

[TheMadMonk]

108. The police did everything by ther book as far as I could see.

So did the idiot protester. And his actions were calculated to cause the police to move to the next item on the checklist. THAT is what entitled them to taser him.

OH and BTW, There is a huge difference between "asking" to be killed and deliberately courting a painful but not particularly dangerous tasering. Nice strawman.


Just watched one of those ridiculous cop shows last night. You know what surprises me? Thar there are not even more dead stupid Americans. FFS Telling a cop to "shut up and wait" because they're on the phone, when the phone is the reason for the traffic stop and continuing despite multiple very clear warnings to comply or be tased. And then at the very end: "What did you do that for?"

If you go out of your way to give a cop a hard time, expect troubleand probably a certain amount of pain.

[truedelphi]

110. Except whenyou are in your car, you are under the Authority of

The police.

Get involved in an accident while you are driving your car, and you better get off the phone and not give the police a hard time about it.

When I go to hear someone who is political speak, I am not expecting to be tasered.

I have taken care of mentally ill people. I have put up with far more provocation with people who have dementia or raging metal illlness than these campus police will probably ever see in their lifetimes.

I don't need a taser to deal with unruliness.

Cops shouldn't either.

But on the plus side, maybe Kerry will finally let those of us who put so much time and energy into his campaign find out the answer to our question of "Why did you concede on the day?"

[rox63]

114. He has answered that question on multiple occasions

I have been present for a couple of those occasions, and have heard it myself. Ask James Carville about the 100,000 Ohio ballots that suddenly "disappeared" after he leaked info about JK's planned election challenge to his wife (and Cheney advisor) Mary Matalin.

[truedelphi]

118. Thank you for that.

I spent the morning calling his offices in Massachusetts trying to find out if he ever answered the question.

Can you tell me what you recall of his answer (I am still waiting for staff to get back to me - they amy or may bnot - today seems to be one of theri busier days)

Anything you remember would be appreciated. And times and dates, if you can recall those.

[rox63]

129. He planned to challenge the Ohio election

This was based on the reported 250,000 provisional ballots that had not yet been looked at. His reported vote deficit was 118,000 votes, and many of those provisional ballots were from urban areas that supported Kerry. Before he had a chance to file a challenge, Carville informed Matalin of these plans. (See Bob Woodward's most recent book for his version) She in turn phoned Cheney, and the Bush-Cheney campaign had Ken Blackwell's crew make many of those provisional ballots disappear. With the provisional ballots that were left, there was almost no chance that Kerry would have won that battle. Additionally, the DNC (run by Terry McAuliffe, who's now HRC's campaign manager) was not willing support a challenge to the results this time, citing what happened in 2000. Without party support, any challenge he could have tried was doomed. His lawyers advised him that a challenge would fail, and would probably do further damage to the party in the process.

I'm sure there's a transcript out there from one or more of the events where he's answered this. I was at an event in Cambridge, MA for JK and THK's book tour where someone asked a similar question. No violence ensued, and the Q&A session ended calmly, with everyone getting their answers.

[TheMadMonk]

143. And you are trained solely in dealing with "obstroperous" people.

And quite possibly went to uni to learn how. Cops get a few weeks in which they are expected to learn a huge amount of police work. This is of course if your county/state is actually willing to provide a real training program at all.

Oh and one final thing. When YOU and the 90 odd percent of Americans (and citizens of virtually any other nation on this planet for that matter) are actually willing to pay cops what the job is worth, then and only then will I hold them to the standards to which you think they should be held. In the meantime you/we/I get what is paid for. Either we suck it up, or we fix it. From everything I've observed, people expect and demand govt service to be delivered without any (or at most minimal) outlay on their part. Since they are not willing to fix it, they (and you/I) can bloody well live with it.


The surprise is not how bad some cops are. The surprise is how bad most cops are not.

[truedelphi]

146. Look I don't get paid all that well

Cops do not ride their bikes to work.

And they have health insurance.

If I can deal with "metal illness" or mental illness, so should people who are being paid with benefits and have pensions etc.

Also you do not need money to have things happen. In fact often the more money we throw at a problem the less happens.

The Red Cross trains people in basic life saving skills very cheaply. I learned to deal with people with dementia very much on the cheap.

Edit to add: I do expect over the next few years that after what happened at the school in Virginia with the sniper, and what happened both here and in the school in CA with the other kid being tasered, that the campus rent-a cop days are about over.

Campuses will find it is FAR cheaper to have professional people in uniform than to have these bogus types. A cost savings of avoiding even a single lawsuit will pay back the college or university for their cost of having trained people working on the grounds of the school.

[TheMadMonk]

147. You are still trained to do one job, and hopefully to do it well.

Cops are expected to be enforcers, protectors, grief counselors, mental health professionals and a dozen other jobs besides.


Indeed you are at least partially right about money, but that is a different problem to crappy cops. It's greedy arseholes who think they somehow deserve the money more than those it is actually intended to help. And the system your (or your parents) generation helped to construct actually encourages that way of thinking. If you can grab it and hang on it's yours and screw who's it was, or who it was intended for.


In case you have not noticed, basic life saving skills are NOT the same as everything even a campus rent-a-cop is expected to know and do.


I'd like to see rent-a-cops replaced with professionals, but I don't see it happening. Not short of a smoking gun memo and a Pinto moment. And I suspect Ford's suicidal efforts there ensured that the number of idiots putting a life count vs price down on paper is very very limited.

[TheMadMonk]

145. Now point by point.

If you go to a controlled event, you voluntarily place yourself under the authority of the security forces there. Yes those security forces are under certain obligations too, obligations which are part and parcel of the job, and which ON THIS OCCASION at the very least, those security forces adhered to scrupulously.

I don't know what exactly led to that incident on the cop show. I came in after the driver had been pulled over. There was no accident, just a cop asking the woman to put the phone down and that woman just waving her hand in his face and telling him she's talking to someone. You know, (actually you quite possibly don't) that Amurikan arrogance that pisses off 90% of the rest of the world, and strangely enough gets right up your own cops noses too.

When I go to a political rally I expect to hear the keynote speaker, not some serial pest with a bug up his arse. If he wants to speak he can pony up the 10K (or whatever) for auditorium and security and scream his rant at anyone who choses to warm the seats in front of him.

From all appearances, this bloke went there with the express purpose of having an encounter with the cops, and quite possibly with the intent of getting himself tased, certainly he did absolutely nothing to avoid that outcome, and everything possible (short of actually thumping a cop) to have it happen.

I have not taken care of the mentally ill. I do have friends who have. They tell me it's great, it's rewarding, and it's as exhilarating as juggling nitro on a warm day.

And there is a huge difference between "barking mad" and not knowing what you do, and being "barking mad", knowing exactly what you are doing, and not giving a flying fuck for the consequences of your actions. This is why the criminally insane ARE ELIGIBLE FOR THE DP.

U are trained to deal with unruliness in a controlled environment with the assistance of big beefy orderlies and a syringe full of 'fun'. Cops do it in the street with whatever resources they have on hand, and usually without any assistance, since by the time backup arrives the situation is either resolved or exploding in a truly spectacular fashion that will take much more than a dogpile and a jab in the arse to resolve. Actually if you gave the cops access to sedatives, they might just manage to kill one or two fewer fuckwits.


On the plus side? Either Kerry has an explanation, or he's not worth spitting on. It would appear that he does have an explanation, even if it is a bit on the mealy mouthed, prevaricating side. Your hero has feet of clay. Deal with it, or get on your Diogenistic bike and see if you can do better than that gentleman was able. Have fun.

[truedelphi]

148. CAn I point out one thing that you have wrong (After all you just met me)

Your statement:
U are trained to deal with unruliness in a controlled environment with the assistance of big beefy orderlies and a syringe full of 'fun'

Nope. I am in a house like the one your great aunt or uncle lives in.

They have dementia and no one else in the world wants to deal with them.

I am not a licensed nurse - so even if there is a syringe with fun juice in it - by law, it is off limits to me.

When someone is raving mad - you cannot get them to do meds - they are not eating or drinking so even sneaking it in their food or drinks won't work.


And yes, when all else fails, I can call the cops. I work in upscale neighborhoods, so generally the cops that show up are very well trained - thank god.

Imagine being in a house with someone who has been a raving lunatic for three days. You haven't slept because maybe she would set the house on fire while you did so? She finally quiets and at 4 Am you fall asleep.

You look rather horrid - huge drug addicted looking bags under your eyes from lack of sleep. Not much personal hygiene has gone on - chasing Mrs Crazy around for 72 hours has not allowed it to happen.

Mrs Crazy wakes up one hour into your sleep. Without waking you, she calls the cops - reporting in the one true moment of lucidity that she has had in 3 days that a homeless person has broken into the house and is now sleeping on her couch.

You are finally happily in dreamland when LOW AND BEHOLD a cop-sized flashlight swings in front of your face. You are prodded awake. The policeman asks, "Who are you and why are you in this house?"

All you can say, is something like, "Mnish blag furba nada." I MEAN YOU HAVE NOT SLEPT IN THREE DAYS.

You are prodded again. "We have a report that a homeless person has broken into this house and we need you to offer us some ID. NOW!"

ID you are thinking. But I was just in Orlando Disney World with my three year old. Do the ticket takers now need my ID to allow me on the Pirates of the Caribbean? (The son is someone now is his late twenties - but dreams are what they are.)

I come to a little bit more and remember to murmur - "Mrs Crazy's son Doug can be reached at 555 1212, Call him and he'll explain I 'm not homeless. Nor have I broken in. Could I PLEASE go back to sleep?"

Several hours later, when the incident is in the past, I look in the mirror and realize that if I had been that cop, I would probably have hauled my butt to jail - I mean there really are homeless winos that look better than this and are much more coherent!

[TheMadMonk]

149. O.K. I made some assumptions which are unfounded.

Why did you not simply state that you are a home care nurse/assistant, we could have avoided a lot of misunderstanding.


However, that said. The people you deal with DO NOT represent the same danger to you, that a hopped up nutcase does to a cop. That is not to say that they are not a risk to you, but you do know with some degree of certainty what you are dealing with and can behave and respond accordingly. A cop only knows what he is dealing with AFTER it blows up in his face and then he is expected to posses the wisdom of Solomon and the clinical skills of Jung or Freud.

You deal with people who do not know what they are doing. Cops usually are faced by people who a) do know what they are doing, and b) are determined not to submit peaceably. Not because of some actual mental problem, but because they don't fucking wanna, and they're not gonna be made to without a fight.

[reggie the dog]

126. perpective

Looking in on the USA from another country I get the impression that you tolerate way too much violence from the police.

[Connie_Corleone]

16. It's a damn shame what people here and Randi Rhodes are saying about Kerry.

How the hell was he supposed to know that guy was tasered when the commotion was going on in the back of the auditorium? And you can hear Kerry on the video saying he wanted to answer the guy's questions and telling people to calm down.

And I'm the last person to defend Kerry. I've had my criticisms of him, but this attack (yes, attack) on him is unfair.

[MessiahRp]

18. What I find strange is...

how this is all Kerry's fault. The police, the overly excited student... seem to be secondary to this "Blame Kerry" sentiment that's going around.

Some of the DUers and Randi are certainly making Tucker Carlson's talking point for him.

I feel bad for Senator Kerry. I have been a long time supporter of his and worked hard for him in 2003-2004 but people purposely take him out of context and look to target him all the time. I think he's a brilliant man, who has a hard time expressing himself clearly at times but not always (always is the current bumblehead President) and tries to understand every nuance and shade of grey.

Yet he gets crap for saying Lambert Field (instead of Lambeau), making a comment about the military preying on the uneducated (which is true), his exemplary service in Vietnam and even more exemplary service in attempting to end the fiasco, even conceding the campaign in 2004 (which he had no shot at winning once Carville ran to Bushco and had them call Blackwell to certify the election).

His pretty solid and distinguished Senate record, his role in normalizing relations with Vietnam, his role in taking down the BCCI scandal, his record as a veteran and anti-war protester and all the many, many liberal positions he has taken post-2004 are forgotten.

He is not Ted Kennedy so immediately he's dismissed as the lesser Senator from Massachussetts.

Why we feel the need to tear him down so much puzzles me a bit.

The above context makes it clear, John Kerry did nothing wrong here. If anything he tried his best to overcompensate for this student even when others had been patiently waiting in line and had earned a shot to their questions being answered first.

But I guess we eat our own don't we?

Republicans only do this if gay sex is involved.

Rp

[TwilightZone]

21. People are still fighting the '04 primaries.

That's the basis for a lot of it. Some of the same characters are fighting some of the same battles that they've been fighting for years.

If only we spent as much time fighting to beat the Republicans as we did bashing each other. We'll probably win in '08 in spite of that. :)

[LittleClarkie]

34. That's the point Will Pitt was making in another thread

precisely.

Some people haven't paid all that much attention to what Kerry's been doing for three years. Their loss.

[moodforaday]

57. You got it wrong

They're not fighting the primaries - they're fighting for the election outcome, and then realize their guy was just for show and didn't really intend to win.

[moodforaday]

56. There is only one thing that needs to be said

about Kerry: Skull & Bones.

Kerry supporters: come on, do a little thought experiment: switch Kerry to * or Giuliani in this incident, and think of what your reaction would be.

From the first presidential debate it was obvious to me Kerry was not going to do or say anything that would seriously hurt Bush. If it was not obvious to you, then perhaps you still believe there's WMD in Iraq - or maybe you believe that all the Dems who voted for war were "duped". Ugh.

[sallyseven]

82. Oh my your just too smart for the rest of us.

We need to catch up with your cynicism and brilliant repartee. How dare we think that Kerry did what he could and tried as hard as possible to win. Votes were stolen and he knew that to challenge could have meant his being wrong. People were not ready to challenge bush.

[LSK]

95. sorry but you might want to read some Kerry Biographies

Kerry might have met Bush once in college, but they were several years apart. Skull and Bones members only stick together when they are in the same year (like a Senior class).

Nice try of playing fast and loose with the facts, but some of us bothered to educate ourselves.

[rox63]

117. Additionally, Kerry was only asked into S&B because he was head of the Yale Political Union

Whoever is head of the Yale Political Union is automatically invited into S&B at the end of their Junior year at Yale.

[karynnj]

122. You mean the first debate where he decimated Bush

Where even the pundits conceded he won easily. Don't tell me that some alternative slam at Bush a la Michael Moore would have been better. It may have had you and others cheering, but it would have lost the votes he needed to pick up.

It stuns me that you can look at a career, he has fought against the goals you associate with S&B.

When he led against the Vietnam War
When he fought to keep the government from continuing to illegally arm the Contras
When he fought on BCCI

How can you ignore nearly 4 decades where he has fought these same people - and claim that the fact that he joined an elite frat when in college means that none of that is real - isn't it said that you know a person by what they do? I do beleive he voted for the IWR for exactly the only reasons he ever gave.

[KittyWampus]

17. How the hell did this thread sink?

[TwilightZone]

19. Because it includes facts?

We apparently prefer supposition, fabrication, lack of context, and innuendo.

[bbgrunt]

20. I still think there is plenty of reason for outrage at

police tactics. They really like using those tasers. Police have definitely become over-militarized and developed a mentality to match their weapons.

[MessiahRp]

22. I don't disagree

Although the kid acted in an erratic fashion I don't agree that tasering him was the smart approach. Even so my point is moreso that Kerry's shouldering the blame somehow on DU which is unfair to say the least.

Rp

[cadmium]

23. No arguement with that -- It is

the outrage against Kerry that seems contrived. I watched the video like most everyone else here and, no matter how loud Randi Rhodes' yells to the contrary, he was not in a position to see them pull out a taser or stop that.

[moodforaday]

58. Poor Kerry, what could he do?

It's not like he had assistants, security people, and the PA system in the auditorium, oh no. What could he do?

[goodgd_yall]

24. The university authorities are who blew it

My impression from watching the video was that if the young man was allowed to get his last question out things would have gone fine. The young man said he had 3 questions and he was finishing up his last one, but the mic was turned off before he could. This is what started the disruption. It wasn't the young man. All hell broke loose when whoever was getting freaked out about his questions censored him by turning off the mic. Then the young man protested the mic being turned off and the cops closed in. It was badly handled by the university.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

26. I just saw the video for the first time.

The action is happening at the very rear of what seems like an extremely large lecture hall. You can see Kerry on the stage and he is practically a speck. To imagine that he could see, much less prevent, the tasering is illusional.

The police clearly overreacted and the tasering is one of the scariest things I've ever seen.

[OzarkDem]

31. Very true

their actions and those of the police were over the top.

[jobycom]

76. No. This kid set this up from this begining. He even had people videotaping it.

He runs a website where he plays practical jokes on people. He's the type who thinks he's the most important person in any room, and everyone must watch him. The questions, the harrassing the police, even getting tasered were part of his routine. The cops claim that once he got in the car he was laughing and telling them "I'm not mad at you, you were doing your jobs. Will there be cameras at the jail?"

He's a bully, a braggart, and an ass. The whole routine, including his fake screaming in pain, was for the videotapes that he had asked beforehand to make sure were running.

The cops acted with restraint. Once he rushed towards the stage shouting at Kerry, they could have beaten him or worse to subdue. If they made any mistake, that was it. Did you notice how close he get to Kerry? Remember RFK? Remember John Lennon? In fact, Chapman approached John and Yoko earlier in the evening and asked for an autograph, holding a book out. The cops had no way to know what this shithead punk was up to. Mabe they should have used greater force.

But cudos to the cops. The handled it without injury, and even though that stupid shit got exactly what he wanted, at least no one was hurt. Aside from all of us who believe in Democracy, and all of the people waiting in line to ask THEIR questions (I guess their freedom of speech doesn't matter to some DUers). And the Democratic Party, which is now being treated as though it is a worse enemy of freedom than the Republicans.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/18/student.tasered/index.html

[neoteric lefty]

94. Cops acted with restraint???

Well, I guess they could have knocked him in the back of the head with a billy club and dragged his unconscious body outside before he even said a word.

He did absolutely nothing illegal to deserve to be put under arrest in the first place. The senator acknowledged that he would answer his question and after his mic was cutoff, was no danger to anyone. The forum was about to end anyways. Did he act like a bit like an ass? Sure, but his questions are some of the same ones that I would like to here him answer.

I do not blame Kerry. I really doubt Kerry knew what was going on in the back of the room. If we was, sure he could have taken some bolder steps to try to diffuse the situation, but hindsight is 20-20.

I spent five years attending the university of Florida, and I know that the UPD there lacks much of the training and proper discretion that I feel should be required for all members of law enforcement. There is no way you can convince me that they could not have resolved the situation without the use of force. This was ineptitude by the police and reliance on a device that should only be used for physically threatening situations.

BTW, I guess if Meyer deserved the tasing, then Mostafa Tabatabainejad must of deserved it to. If you aren't aware of the situation, feel free to look it up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UCLA_Taser_incident

[ShaneGR]

142. I agree with most of what you said...

It's pretty clear the kid was looking for publicity.

[jadedconformist]

124. That stupid microphone...

Always causing a scene.

[karynnj]

125. Actually we do not know what the student would have done

He might have stood quietly and let Kerry answer the question or he might have continued his rant as soon as Kerry said 2 or 3 words. There was some chance - increased by Kerry trying to engage him- that it would have ended easily. If I thought the questions were what was driving him that might have happened. However it would have been a big shift from all the behavior seen. If I had to assign blame 70% goes to him, 25% to the police, and 5% to the University. As info comes in, I have seen that he is more responsible.

[pacalo]

25. Thank you -- this puts a lot more perspective on the incident.

K&R!

[mzmolly]

27. We'll not have any of that "perspective" crap here!

:sarcasm:

[The Count]

28. Whom to trust? My lying eyes or a damage control statement? Decisions, decisions....

[Emillereid]

131. My thoughts exactly - damn these lying eyes. I should remember to check

my perceptions until I hear from the PR people.

[Bluerthanblue]

29. -

kick-

[AikidoSoul]

30. This is Greg Palast's take on the incident

Student Tasered for Armed Madhouse Question to Kerry
" said you won the 2004 election - isn't that amazing?
There were multiple reports of disenfranchising of Black voters on the day of the election in 2004 in Florida and Ohio. ... How could you concede the election on the day?"

by Greg Palast
Watch the Video (go to GregPalast.com website)

We warned you: 'Armed Madhouse' is a dangerous book. Yesterday, Andrew Meyers, a University of Florida student was attacked by five cops, zapped with tasers and arrested after demanding that Senator John Kerry answer the question.

Meyers, just released from jail and now facing five years in prison for resisting arrest, held up a copy of the book and began,

Student to John Kerry: "I want to recommend a book to you. It's called 'Armed Madhouse by Greg Palast.' He's the top investigative journalist in America."

Kerry: "I have the book. I've already read it."

Student: "... In this book, it says there were 5 million votes and you won the election. ... How could you concede the election on the day?"

Meyers, a telecommunications student at the Gainesville campus, asked related questions including a query as to why Kerry refused to vote for impeachment. When he passed his alloted one minute mic time, five cops jumped him, threw him to the ground, shot him with taser shockers.

Kerry, true to character, stood immobile.

Now, I've given many talks. And some questioners have taken too long at the mic. But I've never done the Stalin thing of cops and electronic beating to limit the discussion. (Yes, it's true that Randi Rhodes recently threatened me with a taser when I've monopolized the mic in her studio.)

The Washington Post reported only that Meyers was holding a "mysterious yellow book." VERY mysterious.

I would note that enchained student was busted in Alachua County, Florida, where, six years ago, I uncovered massive, systematic and utterly illegal disenfranchisement of Black voters - ordered by Gov. Jeb Bush's office just before the 2000 election. ("Florida's Disappeared Voters," February 2001, The Nation.) Alachua remains under federal scrutiny for its long history of racial bias against Black voters.

I must admit I feel some appreciation for Meyers, especially because, even while he was being shot with untold amps of electricity, until he was handcuffed, he would not let go of his mysterious yellow book, 'Armed Madhouse.'


Hear the update live tonight on the new "Palast Report" on Air America Radio. The Palast Report will now broadcast every Tuesday night, at 9:30pm, on Richard Greene's new weeknight show, "Clout."

And get America's most SHOCKING book, the New York Times bestseller, ARMED MADHOUSE: From Baghdad to New Orleans -- Sordid Secrets and Strange Tales of a White House Gone Wild (Penguin 2007).

Subscribe to Palast's writings and view his investigative reports for BBC Television's Newsnight, at www.GregPalast.com.

[OnyxCollie]

33. Most likely, he COULDN'T drop the book.

Muscle contraction due to the taser.

I do not believe Kerry should be held responsible for this, and Randi Rhodes had a few things wrong today, and apparently this kid was a smartass, but NO WAY should he have been tasered. There were FIVE cops sitting on him. They couldn't handcuff him and drag him out? Tasering him is just sadistic.

[LittleClarkie]

35. Was he there? Sounds like he hasn't heard the whole story

or the context.

Way to milk the publicity for your book dude.

[XOKCowboy]

39. I like Greg Palast as much as anyone but..

I agree with you dude.

The guy's not the angel Greg wants him to be.

[bluescribbler]

80. Gee, You think Palast has an agenda here?

Like selling books?

:puke:

[LSK]

96. Does Palasts books have video recording and send back feeds to Palast???

Palast wasn't there, how the hell could he know????

[AntiFascist]

116. Congratulations....

finally at post 30 someone mentions what the student was commenting about.

[FloridaJudy]

32. I wasn't there during that incident

But I've attended many events in that auditorium. It's huge. It would be almost impossible for someone standing at the podium to make out clearly what was happening in the back. So I believe Kerry had no idea of the degree of force that was being used to quell the protester.

It's also not as if Kerry had hired the cops as his personal bodyguards - the way the Stones did the Hell's Angels. They were UF police officers, and were acting on their own authority.

There were a lot of bad decisions made yesterday, but I don't think Kerry was responsible for them.

[JI7]

37. kick

[XOKCowboy]

38. Kerry did nothing wrong. The "kid" didn't want an answer. He wanted to rant..

and to get on camera. Q&A was over. The event was over yet he wanted his say. He handed his camera to a bystander so it would be on tape. On his website he prides himself on his heckling. He was playing for the camera and got his wish. People have to remember that Kerry doesn't have Secret Service protection and neither do the other government officials that were present. The local police had to supply security and this guy looked like a security risk to the cops.

Should they have Tased him? I don't think so. I don't like Tasers in any instance. I would not have blamed the cops for inflicting bodily injury to the guy to get the handcuffs on though. He was resisting arrest and they could have either tased him or broke his arm bending it around his back to put the other cuff on under existing law. He obviously made it through the tasing OK and reports are after he was out of camera range was completely cooperative and happy with himself.

I blame the kid and I predict that he'll be on every "news" show in the next week milking it for all it's worth. I have no pity for him. Kerry didn't do a thing wrong.

[obiwan]

44. Sure, he was an asshole, but that was no reason for the police to assault him.

At least not until they repeal the First Amendment.

They should have taken him outside, refrained from tasering him, and arrested him for DISTURBING THE PEACE.

[cadmium]

121. Yes that is a point -- the should have taken him outside. They need to

hire bigger police officers for this place.

[wisteria]

40. Thank you. I can not comprehend how people blame Kerry for this.

It is not only wrong but it assists the RW in trying to discredit Kerry.
To even suggest that the senator is against free speech is ludicrous. I have attended several events when he has graciously addressed those who were being disruptive and wanted to be heard.

[snot]

41. Great, thanks. So, what's stopping JK from answering the questions now?

'Cause I'd like to hear them.

[sallyseven]

85. Maybe he did and you don't like his answer.

That is the trouble with some DU'rs they are too important for their own good. They know everything and never let fact get in the way.

[snot]

140. If you think he's ever answered these questions, pls point me to where.

I've followed pretty closely for 3 years and haven't seen the answers yet.

[truedelphi]

112. So would I./ Have called his office in Massachusettts and a staffer said they

Would find out if the Senator had answered the question about conceding.

They are gonna get back to me.

Will let you know.

[snot]

141. Thank you.

I kept hope for months that it was part of some intelligent plan, but at this point it just looks like an unaccountable capitulation.

[psychopomp]

42. Bullshit! This is nothing more than obfuscation by Sen. Kerry

Sen. Kerry knew that the man was just asking questions and was then summarily hauled off by a group of police to be manhandled.

Watch the video and decide for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaiWCS10C5s&mode=related&search=

[MessiahRp]

65. The man had butted through the line and caused tension with campus police

before he started his erratic behavior during the questioning. Kerry let the boy speak even when it was not his turn and even after the guy had disrespected those he cut in front of. His behavior caused the police to attempt to remove him. Kerry tried to answer the question and diffuse this but the kid resisted arrest and made the situation worse.

Don't blame Kerry for the actions of the kid and the police. Unless you just dislike Kerry and are looking for ways to attack him, which is what I have seen a lot of on here in the past day or so.

Rp

[psychopomp]

136. I only blame Sen. Kerry for his own action, or lack thereof

Just another disappointment from Sen. Kerry. It's okay, I am used to it by now as are many other Democrats.

[Vinnie From Indy]

77. Bullshit! Your post is nothing more than an ignorant rant

Read the post and decide for yourself!

[psychopomp]

135. Right back atcha

I read the post. Sen. Kerry does not get a pass on this one, sorry.

[obiwan]

43. I don't blame Kerry, I blame the cops.

Out of control. Dobermans in uniform.

[happygoluckytoyou]

45. BLOWJOB?

YOU SURE THIS WASN'T A BILL CLINTON EVENT?

[mike_c]

46. I agree completely-- Kerry could have handled the situation with ease....

The cops escalated it with unnecessary force.

As for not being fully aware of what was happening, at one point Kerry joked to the audience that Meyer was busy, but he wished Meyer could come onto the stage and swear him in as president. It sure sounded like Kerry was pretty aware of what was happening.

[jpgray]

47. Boy, there are some DUers I hope never appear on a jury

Based on that statement, "it sure sounds like" Kerry knew the guy was being unnecessarily tased as he was held to the floor? Based on the video footage of someone who was right next to the guy, it was audible to us so it must have been audible to Kerry up on the stage? What are we here, Bill Frist?

[mike_c]

48. no no-- he wasn't being tased at the time, IIRC....

He was being hustled to the back of the room and thrown to the floor. A woman began screaming "Why are you doing this?" at the cops about that time, and Kerry was joking with the audience about the dustup, I presume to lighten the mood. I think it's fair to surmise that Kerry was aware of what was happening, at least in a general sense-- he referred to it directly from the stage. I don't doubt that he was unaware of the taser-- that's difficult to see even in the video shot from nearby. You can hear it, but Kerry would not have been able to hear it from the front of the room.

[iburl]

49. John Kerry Did nothing wrong except...

... he has not addressed the tazer victim's very valid questions as to the total FOLD to his fellow secret Skull and Bones society brother W after election night given all the voter fraud evidence and his own pledge to count every vote.

[jpgray]

50. Okay, that makes more sense

I don't have a problem with thinking Kerry could have done more to defuse the incident. "If we could all calm down" and "It's alright, I'll answer the question" aren't really the most he could have done, true. However, according to a few accounts of what happened pre-taping the guy wasn't going to be allowed to speak since he had forced his way to the front of the line, but Kerry asked the cops to lay off at that time. So again it's sort of a gray area--had the cops just had enough at that point? I dunno.

[mike_c]

51. I want to emphasize that Kerry could have EASILY handled the situation....

...if the cops had backed off like he asked. Over the top questioners like Mr. Meyer are usually way out on the edge of their self-esteem where the ice gets thin and lonely. Simply listening respectfully generally lets them wind down pretty quickly. He was WAY juiced on adrenalin and testosterone-- shaky and scared. Kerry could have sent him home happy if the cops had not turned off his mic and grabbed him.

[jpgray]

52. I don't agree with the cops' choice to "walk" him, which escalated the incident

But apparently the event organizers made that call, not Kerry.

[JohnnyRingo]

53. Thanx for posting this

I probably wouldn't have seen it if not for your sharing.
Maybe I'm biased, but it helps put things in perspective for me.

[Apollo11]

55. Historical perspective

Annie Kenney, together with Christabel Pankhurst, has somewhat of a run-in with Mr Winston Churchill on 13th October 1905 in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester when she posed the question to Churchill and Sir Edward Grey, "If you are elected will you do your best to make women's suffrage a Government measure?".

http://www.iknow-northwest.co.uk/tourist_information/manchester/oldham/saddleworth.htm


Campaign for Women's suffrage continues

On 14 October, two young women decided to go to prison rather than pay a fine for causing a disturbance. Christabel Pankhurst and Annie Kenney were the first to be jailed for demanding the right to vote.

Uproar broke out at Manchester Free Trade Hall, England, when the women demanded to know if a Liberal government would give women the vote. Their protest came at the end of an election address by leading Liberal politician Sir Edward Grey, when Pankhurst and Kenney stood up and unfurled their banner, saying "Votes for Women". Their behaviour provoked an angry reaction from the crowd, who threw the two into the street, where they were arrested by police.

In 1903, Christabel Pankhurst had founded the Women's Political and Social Union with her mother Emmeline Pankhurst, the pioneer of women's suffrage. The arrest marked a new militancy in what would have been a peaceful political campaign.

http://library.thinkquest.org/27629/chronicle/1905.html


Christabel Pankhurst
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christabel Pankhurst (September 22, 1880 – February 13, 1958) was a suffragette born in Manchester, England.

Along with her mother Emmeline and others, Christabel co-founded the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU) in 1903. In 1905, Christabel Pankhurst interrupted a Liberal Party meeting by shouting demands for voting rights for women. She was arrested and along with fellow suffragette Annie Kenney went to prison rather than pay a fine as punishment for their outburst. Their case gained much media interest and the ranks of the WSPU swelled following their trial. Emmeline began to take more militant action for the suffragette cause after her daughter's arrest and was herself imprisoned on many occasions for her principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christabel_Pankhurst

[onehandle]

59. John Kerry personally tasered this poor boy 27 times.

I read it on the Internets.

[Mad_Dem_X]

60. Thank you!

Thank you for posting this. Some people were so quick to bash Senator Kerry when this first happened; it's good to get the full story.

[DWilliamsamh]

61. Kerry's inaction is what he did wrong

He took no positive steps to stop the rent-a-cop campus police from acting like black shirt storm troopers. He is a sitting US Senator and the featured speaker.... without even getting off the stage he could have raised his voice and at least said, "hey stop it. What you are doing is not necessary we are having a dialog here let me handle the situation by just answering the question."

It brings to mind something I often misquote "all that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing."

Kerry is a good man. I don't doubt that, but just like when he shrunk under the lights of the 2004 election irregularities and sent John Edwards out to conceded defeat instead of at least fighting for the rights of voters - if not his own election - he appears to no longer have the cajones to stand up for the rights of the people of the United States. I am glad he is a Senator, and equally glad he is not the President of the United States. Not that I am happy w/ GWB - but I sincerely doubt that Kerry would have had the stones to even start to reverse the disgusting policies of war and the erosion of constitutional guarantees of the GWB miss-administration.

[MessiahRp]

64. I disagree with your assessment wholeheartedly...

First, the guy had caused issues before his questioning even began and Kerry was gracious enough to let him ask his questions when they guy had butted through the line forcefully enough to have the campus police ready to remove him then and there.

He let the guy ask the questions and when the guy, who was too excitable for his own good I suppose got cut off, Kerry offered to answer his questions in hopes that the police would back off.

Again this guy had a run in with the campus police before the questioning incident ever began.

Also he conceded Ohio because he had to. Carville the Traitor ran to Bushco and told them Kerry was going to legally challenge the results in Ohio and they ran to Blackwell who rushed and certified the election before Kerry's legal team could do a damn thing to stop him.

He would have spent the first two years of his Presidency thwarting Republican power grabs and corporate cronyism and the next two (with a Democratic Congress) reversing course on most of Bush's policies.

To say he wouldn't have done that and that he doesn't fight for us is misguided at best and malicious at worst.

Apparently you have not followed Kerry after the 2004 election... He, Barbara Boxer and Russ Feingold have been the loudest voices speaking for us, the majority of Americans who are tuned out and ignored in Congress.

The Senator deserves applause for the work he's done, not ridicule.

Rp

[DWilliamsamh]

71. It's fine that you disagree....

But like I said he is a good senator who (even according to your assessment) has in his later years decided that if a fight will be difficult - or one he is not guaranteed to win - often takes the rout of inaction and concession and/or political expedience.

Don't get me wrong - MOST of the time I like Kerry very much. Enough so that I voted for him in the primary as well as the general election in 2004. But his performance (or lack thereof) in the aftermath of the election (and I am not taking about just Ohio - NM and Colorado were also places rife with irregularity among others including FL and CA) and since have proved to me that he is not strong enough to truly be a leader to drag this country back into the light if its best ideals and its best days. He is a great voice in the senate. His failing is in the fact that when he perceives that his may be a lonely voice - he shuts his mouth.

[truedelphi]

115. The only problem with your analysis is that

After Blackwell certified the Ohio Election, John Kerry, who had dozens of lawyers at his disposal, did not use them.

It was actually David Cobb and Nader, third party candidates who in no way would gain access to the WH regardless of the outcome of a challenge, those two scraped together the monies to legally challenge the state of Ohio as to the certification. Much of what has gone down as final documentation as to the cheating and theft of votes inside Ohio is because of the challenge that these two men created.

It would be nice to say that Kerry did something along these lines, but he did nothing that I know of!!

However dozens if not hundreds of voting activists in the state of Ohio attempted to right these wrongs. And others travelled at their own expense to try to right the wrongs.

Kerry, who had ample monies provided to help with this type of challenge, did not do any of this!

[rucognizant]

69. Right on!

It's leadership! Lacking in Kerry!
He IS a GOOD man, GOOD Senator who shut down the BCCI in 1991. He IS a Bonesman...............married to the widow of another Bonesman, R Senator Heinz of PA. who was taking a stance OPPOSITIONAL to the R. Partyline when he was killed in a smallplane crash! ( sound familiar?) Together they know a LOT MORE than we do about what is going on! They have between them 4 smart good looking adult kids........................Intuition ( which a has NOT failed me in 68 years, when I listen to it; only when I ignore it) tells me that there were & are threats there, as well as against Edward's pretty 3.
At what point do you max out and become immobilized?
We are just not destined at this point to have a hero step up and say "I'll pay the rent!" ( for the younger crowd who may not know this post depression game; message me and I'll fill you in.)
I'm with Andrew Meyer! SO he was pushy and overdramatic! It's what we need right now! I am so sick of the majority who put being "niccccccccce" groupthink, as top priority. Society has rewarded the ability to collaborate meet, talk, and do things by committee! I am an artist, in the "quaint sense of the word, not one of those brain bashing, sound making, interlopers who have stolen the label! (oh well another time..)
Vincent Van Gogh didn't first have a meeting & come to a concenses to decide to put splashes of purple in some trees.............He just DID it & IT WORKED! Mission Accomplished!
I believe the FIRST Revolution was done largely by individual acts of passion which taken together worked to create a whole/ ( Oh of course there had to be some planning get togethers...but bottom line, individuals were responsible for their own wellbeing, and working to throw off, the AUthority that tried to dictate what was allegedly on their best interest NOT.
Now the majority of us are accusomed to a benevelant authority,( boss/ company) that has provided health insurance, retirement benneys etc. They're going, going, gone.
It's really hard to make the a switch over but that's what needs to happen! Practice being obnoxious, in their face!
Don't wait for Kerry to do it, obviously he's burned out, but still hanging in there serving this country, because it's WHO HE IS with his whole being!!
BTW.......... Edwards..... the family has endured death once are facing it again..............have learned to live with it, and have obc=viously decided to put principles & service ahead of their personal lives.... I have the greatest respect for all of them!
I DO NOT like Michlle Obama! She says cattily; "I stay home with my girls because it is important for their wellbeing to keep a regular schedule." Keep an eye in her................I think she's the divisive factor, ( wild card) in his life, jealous of his run for Pres., or pushing him because she can't do it. From my intuition to your ears!

[MessiahRp]

70. Not to get off topic but you're saying Michelle Obama is bad for not leaving her kids to campaign?

Not everybody is a Hillary, Elizabeth Edwards or Theresa Heinz Kerry... And it's perfectly reasonable to want to give your kids some form of normality during what is sure to be an insanely turbulent time in their family's lives.

And you're all over the place on Kerry. On one hand he's Skull and Bones (bad, I guess) on the other he's a good Senator who shut down BCCI. Again on that first hand he's burned out and lacks leadership but on the second again he's hanging in there for his country...

Make up your mind already...

Kerry is a terrific Senator who gets way too much flack for being wise enough to want to weigh all the nuances involved in each and every issue before making some rash snap decision. The right labeled him a "flip flopper" for this and apparently we here on the left want to label him as incapable of leadership.

It's disgusting to say the least.

Rp

[Pacifist Patriot]

62. I've tried to ignore this incident for the inevitable Monday morning quarterbacking...

Even with a video snippet, nothing replaces real-time elapsing of events. When you're in the moment it's harder to get a take on things. It's much easier to commence with the "should have, could have" when all is said and done.

I'm glad you posted a different perspective. Thank you.

[mark414]

63. i am among the outraged but am baffled by any directed towards Kerry

misplaced...be mad at the cops, not Kerry

[DemBones DemBones]

67. Me, too. Outrage at cops using Taser, not at Kerry,

who did not see the Tasering because it was done after the police got the guy outside.

[nam78_two]

134. Exactly- I think what happened here was horrible

But I don't understand how Kerry was to blame for it :shrug:. The cop on the other hand...

[thetaoofterri]

66. Thank you

for this reasonable perspective. I'm not sure if Kerry had done any more it would have changed the situation much, but I think the police should have been a lot less aggressive.

[BlueJac]

68. If a Senator stands by and watches...........

A person get shoved around and arrested for his free speech, this country is in real trouble. No wonder Bush has been able to stomp on the Constitution......it looks like he has some help.

[MessiahRp]

73. Wrong on all counts.

First the kid pushed his way to the front out of turn, thus stifling the free speech of the people he cut in front of.

The police had every right to escort him out for rudeness alone at that point but Kerry let him ask his questions... the kid's erratic behavior continued until Police finally decided to escort him out. Kerry was still going to answer his questions. This kid prided himself on his website on his heckling of famous people (Ken Griffey Jr. being one). This was a heckle job and had zero to do with free speech.

On the way out, another thread on here pointed out that in the police report the kid asked if the cameras would come to jail with him. He wanted attention, not answers.

Kerry, during his campaign, allowed everybody to ask him questions and very openly allowed people to approach him and ask what they wanted to know.

I worked for Kerry in Iowa and he didn't even know anybody in the building but afterwards he had beers with and spoke with all of us, individually. When he became the official candidate I worked a Q&A town meeting type of event and he let EVERYONE approach him. He didn't ask for a pledge or an oath of solidarity as Bush did. The audience was not prescreened.

Your assertion is wrong and frankly a poorly disguised hit on Kerry. To blame him for the Bush Administration's anti-free speech policies is pretty disingenuous and lacking of any true knowledge on the subject.

Rp

[5446]

74. This is the point.

I don't care if duder was ranting and nutty.
I don't care if Kerry wasn't aware he was being tasered by the time they hit the back of the auditorum.
I don't care even about the actual questions being asked, at this point.

I care because an elected representive of the people stood idly by while police/security/whatever forces dragged someone away for asking questions. Stood. And. Watched.

And you defend him by attacking those who point out the most important portion of the event: Stood. And. Watched.

Democracy is dead.

Don't expect John Kerry, or probably anyone else, to spring forth and protect your rights in the halls of congress, either.

[MessiahRp]

75. This was not about asking questions.

This was clearly about heckling. The kid's own website prides himself on heckling other famous people. On the way to the jail he asked if the cameras would come with him.

He butted through the line, stifling the free speech of people waiting patiently for their turn... police had a right to escort him out right then and there and did not at Kerry's request because he allowed him to ask his questions. It was once that erratic behavior continued that they decided to escort him out, when Kerry was going to answer the questions anyway.

They were escorting the heckler to the back of the room and he resisted them.... several times... until they had to restrain him. He brought this on himself and seems to pride himself for making scenes such as this. This was about attention. The kid wanted to get attention and now he's got it.

Kerry did nothing wrong. If the kid had acted rationally and wasn't looking to heckle or make a scene this would have never happened.

Oh and Kerry defends our rights and stands up for us every day in the Senate. You should be proud to have him on our side. There are many Senators with a D next to their name that do far less in defending our rights and principles daily.

Rp

[Vinnie From Indy]

79. Your post is a monument to idiocy everywhere!

Why not accuse the furniture in the room of standing around and watching while the student was manhandled? I hope all readers on DU remember the posters that are making such insane claims about JK as they read other threads. I have no doubt that many of these same people will make a habit of mindlessly and illogically attacking Democrats every chance they get.

[Apollo11]

84. Because furniture is, like, inanimate

I think Kerry was trying to calm things down, but the cops weren't listening.

I would have liked to see Kerry ask the cops not to arrest the heckler.

He could have said "Hold on a second. Why are you arresting this person?"

Not that I have such high expectations of Senator Kerry.

[rosesaylavee]

72. K & R

[jdadd]

78. I think anyone that cuts in line...

Should be Tasered....EOM

[Unca Jim]

83. DUer Please!

From what I see in the (edited, submitted by one party in the disagreement) video, the guy shouldn't have been tasered. However, I wasn't there and didn't see the whole conflict, so my opinion is not based on all the facts. Further, since I wasn't there and don't know the whole story I can't really say *why* the guy was tasered.

How could anyone think it was Kerry's fault? How, further, could anyone armchair quarterbacking this thing think they understand how everything went down?

[Radical Activist]

86. I could have guessed as much.

When I heard the end of a question about skull and bones I thought to myself that he looked like one of these guys that disrespects everyone else there by making a 1/2 long statement as a "question" that he doesn't really want an answer for. There was obviously a lot going on before what we see in the video.

[FedUp_Queer]

87. THE GUY WAS TAZERED FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!

Forget about the "real story." Forget about whether Kerry did all he could. The fact is the guy should not have been tazered!!! If this same thing had happened at a Mitt Romney event, all you super partisans would be expressing justifiable outrage. My God...wrong is wrong no matter who does it. I have always left hypocrisy to the GOP and its loyal conservabots.

[rfranklin]

104. Personally I am glad he was tazered...voltage was too low...

Fazers on full strength, Captain Kirk!

[Apollo11]

88. Sorry - I don't buy Kerry's explanation

What Kerry's staffer posted on DailyKos includes the following:

"Meyer was pulled into the back of the room and the real scuffling began. From the stage, JK couldn’t see what was going on at all (it was a huge room.) So he tried to move things forward, giving the question of voting rights the respect it deserves and trying to answer his question. He had no idea what kind of scuffle was going on, who was doing what to whom, and was as surprised as anyone when the kid started screaming. He had no idea the kid was tasered until later."

Sorry - I just don't buy it.

It was not a huge room. It was a regular-sized lecture theater.

There was clearly a major scuffle going on.

To this football fan, it looked like a third down from the two-yard line.

But Kerry just kept on talking as if nothing unusual was happening.

I agree with Tucker Carlson's comments on MSNBC.

[MetalCanuck]

90. I do not buy it either.

The guy was asking great questions that NEEDED to be answered.


Kucinich 08!

[Vinnie From Indy]

102. LOL! You are about a subtle as a freight train

And, equally as smart.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

93. Compare and contrast

I was in Minneapolis' Northrop Auditorium when Dennis Kucinich spoke in 2004.

During the Q&A period, one of those impassioned and weepy anti-choice types got up and made a lengthy speech about "the murder of innocent babies."

The audience started booing, but DK just said, "Let her finish. Let her finish." And the audience quieted down.

Then he answered her question respectfully, saying that he hoped that she would cooperate in alleviating the problems that cause women to choose abortion.

[cadmium]

120. Not really a analagous comparison. Confrontive

people go on and on at Kerry events frequently and he answers their questions. This was a very big man approaching the stage and not listening to any answers. He was substantiall bigger than the police. This was a different setting and U FLA police apparently respond differently than some other places.

[Raejeanowl]

97. If Kerry Has To Be Responsible

(Or insert name of any presidential candidate or indeed any sitting President)...for every self-aggrandizing ass who wants to make a name for his/herself by causing a ruckus in public and goading security/police into subduing him/her, and either posting the filmed result on YouTube and/or suing for police brutality, then the entire audience must also be personally responsible for candidates and presidents being vulnerable to it in the first place.

If I as an American citizen wanted this system of government, then I must somehow be to blame for allowing any and all repercussions to occur, like when the amoral scions of wealthy men steal the Oval Office. Should have thrown myself in front of the train first. Never voted for him, but impeach me along with you-know-who.

I can just read the negative press now, had JK leaped from the stage and attempted to intervene. Who knows if the kid (and Kerry bashers) wouldn't have started screaming that Kerry had joined the attack? Or that he was "reckless and impulsive."

He is not omniscient. He is not Superkerryman. Find a failing, whydon'tcha, he has plenty, but none of the valid criticisms include failure to stop this melodramatic fool from getting exactly what he wanted...attention and 15 minutes of fame.

Those who question the use of the taser, question the use of the taser regardless, and you will not satisfy them that there is ever an appropriate application.

[lame54]

98. what kerry did wrong was

not to take advantage of a golden opportunity- imagine if he ran down from the stage and convinced the police to free the guy and listened to him and answered his questions - how would we be talking about kerry then?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hr8k8WHTzN0

[Musty]

99. For all the people defending the police/kerry...

you'd be criticizing the police and the speaker if the speaker had been Cheney. You are a bunch of hypocrites. You just don't like it when a Democrat is challenged.

[FedUp_Queer]

105. EXACTLY...

I said the same thing. The issue is NOT whether Kerry is responsible. The issue is that a person was tazered for no good reason.

[paulk]

128. and you do?

just curious...
;-)

[cadmium]

151. This is a misleading post---There is a difference

between the people defending Kerry and the police use of the taser. Hardly anyone is defending the tasering and most of us make that clear. Conflating the two issues is either hypocritical on your part or you a referring to a small minority of posters.

[jodini]

106. I love Kerry...

I will never understand the Kerry hatred here or elsewhere. This was not his fault. Although I don't agree that this kid should have been tasered, it does appear that he was out of control, disrespectful to Kerry and, more importantly, all of the others that had been patiently waiting their turn. Sounds like he may have had some mental issues to me.

[Spoonerian]

107. I'm listening

to Randi now. She just mimicked Kerry saying "I couldn't see the taser" and then said in her own words "Yea Senator, by the sounds of his screams I would have thought it was a cattle prod too"

[Emillereid]

109. Utter Bullshit! I just watched the entire video. There is NO excuse for what

happened! NONE! I don't care how long the line was. I don't know what Kerry could see, but I'm sure he could hear the kid screaming and begging for help. Any decent human being would have jumped off the stage and come to the young man's defense. And to think I worked and voted for this coward. It epitomizes what is wrong with the democratic (weasal) party!

[cadmium]

119. I does matter what Kerry could see. No excuse for the tasing but

the young man said "Don't Tase me dude"-right before they did the taser. To say that Kerry could have stopped that is totally dishonest. And I dont have a disagreement with them removing him. They may have been too quick to do that but as he moved closer to Kerry they moved closer to him. He was disrupting the event. In fact, when they had to restrain him he was acting like he wanted to get hit by the probe.

[Emillereid]

130. I don't know what video you watched -- but there was no way that the

young man was a threat to anyone and there is no reason whatsoever that he should have been escorted out or for that matter even had his mic cut. I've seen questioners who were actually disruptive and I've never seen anyone treated that way. The least Kerry could have done was to use his microphone to insist that the thugs let the boy go and certainly after he heard the kid cry for help and scream, could have used his mic to make the cops back off. How people on DU can defend the actions of the cops makes me wonder what they are made of - is Party really more important than principle. You and I and everyone knows that if this had happened at a Repuke speech, everyone would be all over them. I hope the boy sues them all big time.

[Apollo11]

144. Dam right!

:applause:

[cadmium]

150. The best video is the one

on Rachel Maddow's site accompanying her comment on Olbermann. I dont know about what is the reasonable timing re when they should have escorted him out. He did approaching the stage and evaded the police who were trying remove him from the area. I know that if this happened at a repuke speech the same way I would blame the police for being trigger happy with their tasers. Otherwise, I would have understood their actions. He was far from the stage when he said "Dont taze me bro" and then yelled. By that time he was far away from the stage.

[cooolandrew]

111. Yeah, I'd blame a very reactionary police force than Kerry here. He was answering from what I heard.

[smiley_glad_hands]

127. I voted for John Kerry in '04. eom

[nam78_two]

132. Senator Kerry is one of our best senators.nt

[DS1]

133. Fine. Whatever. I'd like the answer to the question

everything else is irrelevant

[dailykoff]

137. He's answered many times already,

and the answer is, he didn't have actionable evidence of election fraud. The DNC didn't find any either when they conducted an investigation a few months later.

[DS1]

138. How about Skull and Bones?

What's that all about?

[dailykoff]

139. What it sounds like.

A social club at a posh college. Has Kerry every denied having been a member?