Let's all cry bitter tears, weep and moan and rend our garments over some belligerent asshole

[Redstone]

who was CLEARLY at Kerry's speech with NO other intention than to disrupt it. And without having even one valid point or question anywhere within his rant.

Oh, the poor, poor boy! Oh, the HUMANITY!

A tragedy for our times, indeed.

Redstone

(Yes, I watched the clps.)

[TwilightZone]

1. Interesting post re: possible motive

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1838974

[Redstone]

Well well, now, Our Hero. Let's man the barricades in his defense!

Thanks for the link.

Redstone

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. The guy was a troll.

He was there to disrupt.

Basically, the guy was a freeper.

[subsuelo]

8. that's not the point

unless you mean to excuse the cops violent behavoir?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. It's a point that his arrest had nothing to do with silencing free speech or honest question.

"unless you mean to excuse the cops violent behavoir?"

Nah, the kid's violent behaviour excuses the cops' rather restrained behaviour.

[Redstone]

25. Jesus, here I am agreeing with you again. This was not some innocent kid trying

to express his First Amendment rights. It only takes one viewing of the video clips to see that.

Any ideas on what his REAL agenda was? There HAD to be one; the whole thing was stage-managed FAR too clearly for there not to be.

It'll be damn interesting to see what we find out about this clown over the next few days.

Redstone

[question everything]

82. Here are some speculations

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1837984&mesg_id=1838033

[cgrindley]

144. So if I ask about Skull and Bones I somehow deserve tasering?

SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES ready to tase me yet? SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES how about now? SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES SKULL AND BONES if I keep doing this forever, would it ever warrant a good old fashioned tasing?

[renie408]

9. Why was he asking about impeaching Bush then? n/t

[KaptBunnyPants]

22. He is not a freeper, at least not from anything I have seen.

He is most likely a disillusioned Left winger. He's wrong to blame Kerry, as Kerry is one of the good guys. But calling him something he's not because it's easier to dismiss him like that doesn't change the fact that he was tazered without cause and is being charged with a felony for no underlying crime. Resisting arrest should only count when you have been arrested for a valid reason and asking pointed questions when you've been called on for a minute and 10 seconds is hardly an arrestable offense. He should never have been arrested and even Kerry thinks so.

[Bluebear]

If this had happened at a Bush rally people would be up in arms.

I don't get this.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Kerry and Bush are two different people.

And people are arrested at Bush rallies all the time. And people aren't up in arms unless there's actual abuse, like the Yearwood instance.

[onenote]

118. if this had been done by a freeper at a clinton or obama rally, people would be applauding

the police.

[cgrindley]

143. I sure as shit wouldn't

I don't think that anyone should get tasered for speaking up at a political meeting, even for speaking out at a political meeting. Fuckit, I don't even think those codepink asshats should be tasered and I think they're idiots.

[karynnj]

129. Because both Kerry and the University bent over backwards

to give this person time to ask a question - because the name sounded familiar (possibly because I know people with the last name Meyer and Meyers), I found this well written description on a right wing site.

Between this - where Kerry's actions towards a disturbed kid were far nicer than they had to be - and Kerry's statement - Kerry and Bush are night and day different in dealing with dissent.

Here is the whole account - the funny thing is this was in a letter written to Michelle Malkin!

So I went to the John Kerry town hall forum this morning trying to get students registered to vote. I run a student government organization called Chomp the Vote. Anyway I went inside to watch the event. Senator Kerry took the podium and began delivering a speech about the Middle East, Iraq, dimplomacy, etc. Anyway, after he was done, a university ambassador asked Kerry a few premade questions. Once that was over, Senator Kerry announced he would take questions from the students. There were two microphones placed on each side of the aisle. One on my side and the other on Andrew Meyer’s side. Senator Kerry began answering the student’s questions from each aisle. Eventually it was announced that there would only be a few more questions answered. Since Meyer and I were both in the back of each line, it did not seem likely that our questions would be answered.

However, while Senator Kerry was responding to a student’s question, all of a sudden Meyer rushed to the microphone with cops in pursuit. At that point no one knew what was going on. Could he have a gun, a bomb? Immediately, Meyer began yelling into the microphone that he had been waiting in line forever and that Senator Kerry should “spend time to answer everyone’s questions!” Senator Kerry tried to calm the student down by telling him that he would “stay here as long as it takes to get the questions answered.” The police approached Meyer who began taunting them by saying “what! are you going to taser me? are you going to arrest me?!” The police grabbed Meyer, but Senator Kerry asked the police to let him go and that he would answer his question. Senator Kerry finished answering the other student’s question and then proceeded with Meyer. (*This entire scene is not in any video I can find so far. This is why 2 cops are seen right behind Meyer at the start of some videos*).

Meyer approached the microphone and began to talk about a book he had which stated that Kerry won the 2004 election because of disenfranchisement of black voters and faulty voter machines that produced “Bush” as the winner. He then posed another question about why President Bush had not been impeached. “President Clinton was impeached because of a blowjob, why not Bush?”. The third and strangest question he posed to Senator Kerry was asking him if he was part of the skull and bones society with Bush at Yale. Meyer’s mic cut off after that, probably because he had mentioned the word “blowjob”.

...I don’t know if this is relevant or not, but Andrew Meyer is a former sports writer for the school newspaper The Alligator. In his columns, he has been known to make ridiculous statements in order to gain attention for himself. Was today a publicity stunt?



http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2007/09/andrew_meyer_deserved_to_be_ta.php

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. I'm calling him the moral equivalent.

He's a troll, he disrupted the event, he interfered with other peoples rights.

"Resisting arrest should only count when you have been arrested for a valid reason"

He was being arrested for a valid reason. He disrupted the public event, police asked him to leave, he didn't comply, so they arrested him for that, then he decided to resist arrest.

[truedelphi]

111. The cops gave the reason as being that he was inciting a riot

Which I find odd because I always believed that in order to be charged with inciting a riot, you had to cause a riot - and that Yuppie-ish audience probably could not be incited to riot if the vending machines on campus all went empty or somethin'

And they certainly were all too chic and cool (The clips I watched seemed to be taken by these young Valley Girl types) to even care about politics too much - just enough to seem concerned but not enough to worry their pretty little heads about it. Probably there because a civids instructor made them go.

[onenote]

122. not what he was arrested for

disrupting a public event.

[truedelphi]

125. The YouTube clip I watched had the police

Answering his question of "What did I do?" with the words, "Inciting a riot."

Maybe they changed their minds on the charges later, but that is what they initially tell him.

[11 Bravo]

60. This week's sign that the apocalypse is upon us ...

I agree with Bornaginhooligan.

[Redstone]

65. Hey, how do you think I feel? I'm agreeing with BOTH of you!

Redstone

[11 Bravo]

74. Fuck! I'm thinking prescription drugs all around!

Either that, or an incredibly off-key rendition of Kumbaya.

[Redstone]

78. It's GOTTA be that fluoride in the drinking water!

Redstone

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

99. I know

It's chilling.....

Hey, if bornagain thinks the guy was out of line.........uh, maybe he was?

[Bluebear]

3. Yeehaw, shock him.

[nevergiveup]

4. I agree with you

but surely the situation could have been handled in a less explosive manner.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

5. How?

The guy forced an explosive manner.

[Parche]

19. bornagintaser

Yeah :hi:

[Oak2004]

165. Hint:

One of the best ways to defuse a situation where someone is trying to make a scene is to accommodate them.

This country has developed a "must react to everything with the maximum amount of force possible", when in fact a yawn and a "next, please" would have made this guy instantly forgettable. The tasering is just a small internal illustration of the same mentality applied to the international sphere that escalated a settled situation with North Korea until we ended up with a nut with The Bomb (and is working extra-hard to create a fiasco in Iran by overreacting to a genuine problem)

[OzarkDem]

6. Some day

you'll feel differently when someone beats up and tases your kids for exercising their Constitutional rights.

Nothing like the self righteous folks who don't know what they're talking about, but feel the need to put down those who do.

In a way, its a relief to learn who on this forum stands behind what they say.

[Bluebear]

7. What he-men we have here.

Swoon.

[marmar]

11. Agree.....

The larger issue here is how an exercise in free speech ends up with someone getting tasered. If that's the state of America today, then perhaps we are irretrievably f**ked.

[Bluebear]

14. If it's the state of progressive Democrats as demonstrated here, we are truly fucked.

[Cha]

24. Maybe they're not

so "progressive" afterall?

[Bluebear]

32. I have learned a LOT about some people today.

[TomInTib]

72. Bluebear, he SWUNG at a cop.

That's what got him tasered.

1st Ammendment aside, he got off easy.

His charge is not Disorderly Conduct, it is Resisting.

Believe me, I have spent a lot of time on the wrong side of the Law, but swinging at a cop's chin is just crazy.

Bluebear, you are one of my very favorite people on DU, but I am afraid ideology is supplanting reality on this one.

He swung at a cop.

Tom

[Bluebear]

97. Tommy - -

there were six cops. They could have sat on him. They could have tuff-kuffed him.

You are right, swinging at a cop's chin is crazy. I just don't think he went in there wnating to be tazed as people here suggest.

And yes, my ideology can supplant reality and often. Hearing someone shriek in pain really gets me here...(pointing) lol!

[RangerRK]

127. Bullshit!@ "He swung at a cop."

n/t

[TomInTib]

130. Did you watch the video?

Did you miss it?

Or are you just knee-jerking the deal?

The fucking idiot swung (and connected) at the jaw of the female policeperson.


Toast.

[TomInTib]

166. Maybe you could watch the clip.

Or maybe your eyes are too slow.

[OzarkDem]

75. As have I

I'm proud of my kids when they participate in campus demonstrations against the war.

I would be very upset if someone harmed them for exercising their rights.

I'm shocked that so may of my fellow "so called" Dems would cheer on police brutality if my own son was the victim.

Truly frightening and disgusting. I think much less of these people now and I no longer respect their opinions.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

94. I have too

That people have no interest in watching the real free speech of public discourse, of asking and answering questions of one another in a civil manner. Just cause a scene and let's kvetch about the authorities and how they handled it and wring our hands about what a tragedy it all is while watching You Tube.

[marmar]

29. True that.....

:scared:

[renie408]

35. Did you SEE the video? It wasn't an excercise in free speech. It was a guy screaming his

brains out. He was shouting questions, but not letting Kerry even answer. Kerry TRIED to, but the kid wouldn't shut up long enough. The guy was given a couple of minutes to talk and spent the whole time getting more and more worked up. He was told his time was up and refused to sit down. He just got more and more agitated and wasn't listening to anybody. That is NOT free speech. That is somebody having a fit because they want to make their point. Free speech is not an excuse to act like an asshole.

[renie408]

38. PEOPLE!! The right to free speech is not the right to act like an asshole.n/t

[mike_c]

of course it is-- that's uncomfortable, but it's true....

It was a public forum. I'm sorry, but the first amendment does indeed give us the right to act like assholes if that's how we're moved to freely express ourselves. That's why the KKK can march openly, and why all kinds of odious mental diarrhea finds a forum in the public discourse. It is not against the law to express unpopular views, or to shout one's opinions, or whatever. The police should NEVER have been involved unless the gentleman was threatening to harm someone or unless he was breaking the law-- and using "resisting arrest" as the justification still begs the question of whether the police had any cause to arrest him in the first place. Breaking the organizer's rules for microphone etiquette is not a matter for law enforcement, violent force, etc. Except in a police state, of course.

[renie408]

91. So, I have a few opinions I would like to voice. If I go down to my local

town council meeting and stand there screaming questions at the council members, don't give them a chance to answer, refuse to sit down when my time is up, take a swing at a couple of cops and run around the room...I am just exercising my right to free speech?

Cause, you know, I don't think that's how it works...

[mike_c]

102. up to a point, yes, that's the way it SHOULD work....

Look, I give public presentations just about every day. I know how crappy it is to have a jerk in the audience. But that's just part of the landscape in public forums.

Addressing your specific example: guy goes to a city council meeting and espresses his frustration loudly and angrily. The proper way to deal with that situation is to confront him civilly-- as long as he is not breaking the law, threatening anyone, etc, then he is being a nuisance, and skillful public speakers can deal with nuisances, even when they are utterly intractable-- you just have to let them say their piece, over and over if necessary, and if you acknowledge them you have a chance of salvaging the situation. So up to that point, I say yes, our nuisance is entirely within his rights and the matter does not need recourse to law enforcement. If no one attempts to use force, there will not be any need for the latter part of your scenario.

[truedelphi]

112. The clips I have watched do not show him taking a swing at the cops

Can you offer the URL of the clips that do?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

98. So they should have just let him scream away and not let others speak in this public forum?

Woo hoo! Free speech indeed. Biggest asshole gets to run the show.

The guy might as well have started lighting his own farts. Sadly, I suspect within a few weeks someone else will do that, with cameras for You Tube in tow.

[mike_c]

103. yes, of course....

That's the sad truth about public forums-- sometimes the public has their own things to say. And note that he was only at the microphone for about a minute and a half-- that's hardly "not letting others speak."

Look, the guy was a self-involved jerk, no question. But that's not a matter for police action. He violated the organizer's microphone etiquette request. Big deal.

[truedelphi]

114. Exactly. He was at the mike for only a minute and a half at the most

And he was asking questions that I would have loved to have heard kerry answer.

I remember some excellent campaigners in my time, Take Jane Byrne of Chicago. She would have invited him up on stage and answered his questions.

Kerry conceded an election that many of us gave our souls for - and he still has made no real reply over the ease with which he conceded. Or the reason that he conceded.

[Marrah_G]

156. This was not public property

This was on private land, in a private building. Just because they had open doors does not mean they give up the right to toss out people behaving badly.

[Marrah_G]

155. Actually you are wrong

This was on private property. He disrupted the event and was asked to leave. He refused to the point of getting violent.

Free speech is not the right to say anything, anywhere. Alot of people don't get that.

[girl gone mad]

135. So speech is only free when..

the speakers demeanor is approved of?

[zeemike]

58. His entire time at the mike was 1;36sec

It just seems like forever when it is something you do not want to hear.

[renie408]

61. How much time did other people have?

And since he was saying, "Impeach Bush", I don't really have a problem with it. I don't particularly love John Kerry so much that I mind him getting asked some tough questions. Are you trying to say that the kid wasn't TRYING to cause a problem?

[zeemike]

77. He was trying to ask 3 questions

And he did that before being hauled away without receiving an answer to even one.
My god if we had this same police responses in the 60s we would have had dozens of Kent states with our own saying they deserved it.
I can't believe what tI am hearing right now. We have become desensitized to brutality and police control. We are being taught to submit to the jack booted ones.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

100. Um, of course he didn't get an answer

He had no intention of getting an answer. He was in fact, answering himself.

Stop trying to act like this guy had any intention of actual discourse.

[girl gone mad]

136. You're just speculating.

You can't know his intent based on the extremely limited information at your disposal. He was manhandled before he even finished asking his questions.

[Marrah_G]

157. If you watch the entire film it is very clear he wanted no answers

If you watch only the edited clip then it becomes less clear.

This guy went there to cause a scene. He asked someone to film himself causing a scene. He accomplished his goal.

[truedelphi]

115. You've got it! We are being taught that these times

require us to be nice little yuppie boys and girls and to get on our best clothes and sit with hands folded while looking adoringly at the candidates while they lecture to us.

Jeesh!

[onenote]

123. he also cut in line, interrupted the previous questioner

[renie408]

23. When is it free speech and when

is it a disruption and resisting arrest? The kid was fighting with the first two cops that tried to get him to leave. Nobody started off tasing him. They started off by telling him his time was up. He refused to stop shouting and to sit down. Then they cut off his mike and he got agitated. Then two cops went and tried to make him move and he fought with them. Maybe they shouldn't have tased him, but it isn't like he was just asking a few inconvenient questions and got attacked out of the clear blue sky.

The right to free speech does not mean saying whatever you want, whenever you want and however you want.

[zeemike]

62. Did you hear him say "I want to stay to hear the answers?

You are saying that it unreasonable to do that?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

101. Uh huh........

Which would have been followed with a plug for his website......

[zeemike]

105. I can't believe what I am hearing here

You have drunk the Kool Aid and are willing to blame the victim of a clear intrusion into political discourse by the jack booted enforcers of what is the right form of free speech.
They have convinced you that you must stay in the free speech zone and keep it down and not to expect an answer to any question you should be so bold as to ask.
Big Brother has taken the mind and I guess the body is next.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

108. I can't believe you think this kid even cares about politics

...and that he even wanted an answer.

[moodforaday]

163. He's apparently read Palast

so he cares at least that much.

I can't see on what basis people are stating his intent was to disrupt the discourse rather than have a legitimate question answered.

[girl gone mad]

137. Again, that is pure speculation on your part. n/t

[OzarkDem]

106. You keep repeating the same bullshit

and it still isn't any more true than the first time you posted it.

[truedelphi]

116. And the people whho planned Bush's speeches during election 2004

Have a job for you in 2008.

Just pre-screen them thar crowds and keep everyone nice and quiet.

[truedelphi]

113. It is a relief but it is scary too n/t

[Puglover]

153. No, I doubt that he will.

If the kid needs a good tasering then goddamit let him have it! Jesus Christ I can't believe the utter bullshit I am reading on this board.

[moodforaday]

164. Who else "needs" tasering

at a political event? Share with us!

[cali]

10. Less than zero.

That's how much sympathy I have for the little asshole. He had less than zero respect for the first amendment rights of others there.

NO HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN TASERED. So don't give me the bullshit about how I'm endorsing that.

But man, would I like to give him a swift kick in the pants. He's selling something. One thing I noticed on his little blog, is that he's literally selling shit, now he'll have a whole lot more traffic and business.

[Redstone]

15. Aha, the profit motive. What could be more American? Thanks for the post.

Redstone

[mike_c]

12. it's meaningless in itself, but ominous as a symptom of fascism....

And no, I don't think that's too strong a term. This was a civil matter-- as you say, a guy who was bellicose and belligerent.

Thing is, that calls for civil confrontation. Ignoring him. Asking him to state his question directly so that others can speak. Whatever. But he did not break any laws by speaking, the forum was specifically for public discourse, and no matter what one thinks about his tone or his attitude, the police had no business intervening, and they certainly had no business trying to arrest him, using violent force, and so on.

The police involvement itself is what bothers me most. Not even the tasering so much because once the police entered the matter something like this was bound to happen, or the guy's rights were bound to be violated in some other way, even if only by silencing him. This was a civil matter. There is no law against making a fool of oneself by copping an attitude from the soapbox. Yes, everything about what this guy did was self-involved assholery-- but the police have no business getting involved unless laws are being broken. The organizer's rules are not laws, and enforcing them is not law enforcement. Our willingness to accept police involvement in civil disagreements is disconcerting.

[goodgd_yall]

70. Good post n/t

[zeemike]

81. Thanks at least I am not the only one that is troubled by this n/t

[girl gone mad]

138. I have to admit that I'm stunned..

to see it coming from people who consider themselves left-leaning.

What ultimate outcome do people think tolerance of such actions will bring? I think that be it total fascist usurping or the counter-reactionary revolution, it never ends well.

[eleny]

13. I'm surprised this is your opinion

Even Chris Matthews asserted how our democracy is supposed to allow for such displays without resulting in tasering.

[LaurenG]

17. Do I haaaave toooo?

I just can't find it in me to do it.:rofl:

:hi:

[Redstone]

33. Can you try just a BIT harder? Come on, now; he's being compared to the kids who were shot deat at

Kent State! If HE's not a True Hero For Our Times, who is?

By the way, I'm going to be watching the news like a hawk for the next few days, just to see what more we learn about who he REALLY is.

I sense the strong odor of Rat in the air tonight.

Redstone

[zeemike]

85. The kids at Kent State were disruptive too Yelling and

Making asses of themselves
And there were many like you that said that they deserved it.
I know because I remember those times.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

104. Cue "The Price Is Right" lose music.......

"Bum bum bum bum......waaaaaaaaaa......"

What's next, a comparison between the "I Have A Dream" speech and St. Andrew's rant about Monica and Bill?

[zeemike]

109. No you are right it is not the same

If this would have happened in 1970 the whole student body would have rose up and driven the few cops away.
And that is why the Governor brought in the national gard with loaded guns because the kids would not stand for the heavy hand of the police
Now like you most of them have been conditioned to believe it is "normal" for the police to intervene in a political forum and drag away and taser anyone who is "disrupting" by asking too many questions and asking too loudly.
\Have you ever heard of Jerry Rubin and the Chicago 7? He made a career out of "disrupting" and had they laid a hand on him like that the whole campus would have exploded. They did not take the shit we are expected to take now.
But screw it I am an old man now and it is your generation that will live with it so have a happy life as long as you keep your mouth shut and line up quietly.

[OzarkDem]

107. They would say the same

about the Kent state students if it happened today. Interesting that people talk about changing the system but don't seem to understand how it gets done.

[slowry]

18. Seriously. They tried to walk him out (completely fair) and he shoved a bunch of cops around.

He actually clipped one on the chin, with his right knuckles, too. That's when they tried to cuff him, but he fought those off successfully also. So, the taser. Shouldn't have been used, imho -- sit on him, or whatever -- but that's a matter of police brutality (or not, depending on your POV), but certainly not a matter of free speech.

We can do a hell of a lot better than this fellow, if we're looking for heroes.

[muntrv]

20. That's what you call asking Kerry a tough question, disrupting?

[slowry]

27. How about 5 questions, which he answered himself, in the most belligerent way possible? Cheers. n/t

[renie408]

30. No, I call screaming at the pitch of your voice long after your time at the mike is over

and shoving a bunch of cops around disrupting.

[Redstone]

39. Do you, now? But according to many at DU, that makes him a First Amendment Hero!

I guess we have to pick one. I'll go with YOUR asessment, if that's OK with you.

Redstone

[Bluebear]

40. Why do you sign you name on every post?

When we can see who the poster is? Just always wondered that.

[renie408]

43. He has the right to free speech? n/t

[Bluebear]

48. lol touche

Bluebear.

[Redstone]

51. I'm old. I used to write a lot of letters, pre-Internet, so I just kind of carried

the habit over. I'd feel odd writing ANYTHING directed to another person, without signing it.

You've heard the one about old dogs and new tricks, yes? I'm one of those old dogs.

Redstone

[Bluebear]

52. gotcha thanks :)

[Redstone]

56. You're welcome. A polite question, asked in a polite manner, usually leads to

an outcome that doesn't involve Tasers, doesn't it?

Even these days.

Redstone

[Wilber_Stool]

171. Your a nice boy.

Your mother must be very proud of you.

[Capn Sunshine]

21. wrong he had ONE valid point.

Kerry won. Too bad he didn't press it.

[libodem]

26. Sounds like he went in

with disruption in mind. Asking someone to video the whole thing, when he has a website full of pranks, seems to confirm my suspicions. How ya doin' anyhow, Redstone?

[Redstone]

45. I'm doing pretty well, thanks for asking. Oh shit, you're my friend and I owe you the truth:

The pain's been fucking dreadful for the last six days. (Sigh), now I can feel better because I was honest with you.

But I'm working through it. The Pain and I have these seesaw batles now and again, and I really do feel like I'm about the gain the upper hand for a while.

Thanks again for asking.

Redstone

[Bobbieo]

47. I'll bet he would have been disappointed if he had not been tasered.

That seemed to be part of the game.

How are ya doin' Redstone - have missed your posts.

[Redstone]

63. Bobbieo! Let's leave politics aside for a moment, and allow me to say that I've been thinking

about you as well, and wondering how you are.

Seems like those doctors put a scare into you that didn't happen the way they predicted, yes?

And allow me to say God bless you, even though I'm not religious. I'm sure you've continued doing all your wonderful charity works for the Indians, and it's my FERVENT hope that you've been well yourself lately.

Maybe you can help me with something: I used to get brochures from an organization (headed by a minister, I think) that was involved in selling products from the Dinetah, and also solicited contributions for food packages, woodstoves, etc for the poor among the Dineh.

Do you know the name of that organization offhand? I stopped getting their mailings, and I want to sponsor a woodstove for woodstove this year.

Any information would be appreciated, and agin, I'm DAMN hapy to see you still around DU.

Redstone

[TomInTib]

34. What just kills me on all of this whining is that he popped a cop.

I saw the little fuck swing at a cop.

Try hiding that under the 1st Ammendment.

As far as I am concerned, he got off easy.

And as far as all the misguided Free Speech types, try walking into your next Town Council meeting and start screaming bullshit.

See what happens.

[Redstone]

53. Seems like you're espousing civility, which doesn't always sell well

as a concept these days.

Redstone

[jonnyblitz]

36. yeah they should send him to GITMO, too,

how ((((dare)))) he interrupt SAINT KERRY! :eyes:

[cgrindley]

37. Wow, yet again DU sucks

what that kid did is what this country is all about. free political discourse. period.

[trumad]

41. Horse shit.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[trumad]

54. So say you...LOL

The God of Democracy.

[renie408]

73. IT WASN'T POLITICAL DISCOURSE. It was a college kid on a tirade.

Discourse: 1. communication of thought by words; talk; conversation: earnest and intelligent discourse.
2. a formal discussion of a subject in speech or writing, as a dissertation, treatise, sermon, etc.
3. Linguistics. any unit of connected speech or writing longer than a sentence.
–verb (used without object) 4. to communicate thoughts orally; talk; converse.
5. to treat of a subject formally in speech or writing.
–verb (used with object) 6. to utter or give forth (musical sounds).


THAT is discourse. At what point in the above definition do you see "Scream questions at the pitch of your voice, don't wait for an answer and take a swing at two cops."??

[girl gone mad]

139. Well, it sure looked like..

communication of thought by words to me.

:shrug:

[cgrindley]

140. Yeah, it was

see the microphone?
see the politician?
see the audience?

that's political discourse. and no one, ever, no matter what, should get tasered for participating in political discourse. and I don't give a fuck what their opinion is. participation in political discourse is sacred. I don't care if someone's crazy (should they have tasered the black helicopter guy on youtube?) or if someone's offensive. participation in political discourse is sacred.

[OzarkDem]

93. Fuck with my kid asking a question at a forum?

You will regret it. Believe me.

Call him names for exercising his right to free speech? Bring it on.

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cgrindley]

46. The post may get deleted, but you sure as shit won't get tasered

and that's my point.

[KittyWampus]

if she said it in public & then resisted efforts by police to get her to stop... yeah, she might

[renie408]

59. And I wouldn't whine about it later, because being an ADULT, I understand

that behaviors have consequences.

[renie408]

57. Here's the thing...

They didn't start off tasing him. It started with him getting asked POLITELY to step away from the mike. Then they cut the mike off. Then he freaked out some more and two cops came and tried to escort him away from the mike. Then he started swinging his arms and running around like a nut. Then four cops jumped on him. At that point, he was down and still struggling. He was saying, "Don't tase me.", but you can see all four of those cops still struggling with him. I swear, I don't know if he should have been tased. But I am also not sure how you are supposed to get a big, struggling, healthy kid out of a building without hurting him somehow. My point is that the kid was in control of the whole thing. HE prompted what happened. At any point, he could have turned it down a notch and avoided this. He didn't want to. I honestly think he got what he wanted. I mean, WE'RE all talking about him, right?

[cgrindley]

141. They had no right to even drag him away

that's a bunch of horseshit

[gmoney]

159. OWIE OWIE OWIE OWIE

His "screams of pain" sounded pretty theatrical to me... maybe the "cops" were plants, too?

[brentspeak]

92. Here is something Andrew Meyer wrote when he worked at the school newspaper:

" I've finally done it. I angered enough people to have an entire letters-to-the-editor section all to myself (http://www.alligator.org/edit/opinion/issues/stories/040722letts.html#1), full of PO'D readers who just put down my column. Truth be told, I agree with all of them. The letter to the editor I got for my first column was BS, but these people hit the nail on the head. Calling my 'campus lacks intelligence' piece self-centered and obnoxious was precisely what it deserved, and these people gave it to me right between the eyes...And all of this is exactly the response I hoped for. I knew this is how my column would be received, and I'm glad. What I wrote was pompous, contradictory, and self-congratulatory. And it put my name out there. People were undoubtedly talking about what I wrote. At least four were angry enough to write those letters. I wrote something that would be controversial on purpose; I wanted people to read something, ANYTHING that I wrote. Because while the public might completely hate what I had to say, they might at least get a kick out of what they were reading at the same time; maybe even enjoy my writing style, and look for my name in the future. "

Still think this was about "free political discourse. period"?

[OzarkDem]

95. Sometimes controversy is a good thing

True advocacy and raising hell are the only things that are going to overcome the monopoly the news media has on political discourse in America.

Shaking people up and making them think is the right thing to do. There are few alternatives left.

[baby_mouse]

131. TASE HIM!

PEW PEW!

[cgrindley]

142. yeah, as a matter of fact, I do

it's the very fucking essence of political discourse

[KAZ]

49. You never fail to disappoint.

50, 60 deaths from tasers? Who cares. He didn't do what the PIGS told him to do. No wonder we're in deep shit, with "progressives" like you.

[wtmusic]

69. What the "PIGS" told him to do?

Wow. A real anarchist. I thought they were all in museums.

[KAZ]

84. Not really an anarchist. In fact I have many friends who are...

... what I'm calling "pigs". But in '68, '70, and several instances recently in the news, they are "pigs". I don't think of my friends as pigs, but if we call sow a sow, maybe we'll cut down on the high-fiven in the locker. I know many of them hang their heads in sorrow when no one is looking.

[Redstone]

71. Even though I grew up in America in the 1950s and 1960s, I absolutely refuse to

refer to cops as "pigs."

And I won't have a discussion with anyone who does.

Nor with anyone who spells the name of the country as "Amerikka." Sorry, I just won't.

Redstone

[Warren Stupidity]

149. You just did.

[renie408]

50. This is NOT about free speech. The kid was not taken out for WHAT he said, but for HOW he said it.

He wouldn't shut up. He was screaming and was asked to step down and refused. He took a swing at two cops. What on earth do you THINK is going to happen in that case??

For god's sake, people, freedom is not an excuse to live life without any rules or civility. And if ANYBODY thinks that kid didn't get EXACTLY what he wanted, they are stupid. He got what he wanted, alright. He wanted attention and now he has it.

[Bluebear]

55. "He got what he wanted, alright." Shocked??

[renie408]

66. Eh. It was about five seconds of no damn fun in trade for drawing the attention

he was looking for. Who hasn't gritted their teeth and taken a little pain to get something they wanted? In a way, you gotta kind of admire his balls.

You have to know, looking at that video tape, that kid didn't go in there 'just' looking for an answer to his questions. He went in to make the BIG STATEMENT. And he did. And he had to know that once he took a swipe at two cops and ran round like a chicken with its head cut off, SOMETHING was going to happen. I think he has gotten the big payoff.

[Bluebear]

67. My GOD you sound cold as ice! No offense.

[renie408]

86. LOL

I am not, really. Actually, I am generally viewed 'in person' as being kind of emotional. I have read that the kid made sure he was videoed and after watching the videos several times, I just think he went in there to get as much attention as possible.

Also, I guess I have been in a lot of physical situations and I understand being willing to take a hit or two to get something done. It's funny cause I just told my husband that in a weird way, I kind of admire this kid for being willing to go to the wall for what he believes. I just don't feel SORRY for him or feel like he was violated.

[AuntPatsy]

64. For me it is not that I cry bitter tears for this young man it is more that

I am honestly upset that more and more at these types of events involving political figures the people are just not allowed to ask the right questions it seems. Did the start of using force to evict seemingly people that appeared disruptive to politicians start with our reigning faux wanna be king not liking any to question his rule of thumb?

I realize the political arena has seemed to erupt in not allowing the truth to become known to the average viewing public obviously because they seem to have more to hide these days but I watched the video as well, a few different ones in fact and other than being annoying in how he handled his need for asking his questions at no time did I view this young man as a threat to anyone and therefore it leaves me not believing the police handled it at all well.

Remember that women in New Jersey who lost her son in the early days of the war and wore a shirt to a speech that the idiot in chief and his stepford wife attended? Do you recall how she was told to leave because of what her shirt said, she refused, as should have been her right and she was then roughly handcuffed and taken to jail.

She of course is not the only one this has happened to before or since but in my opinion enough is enough, we pay these these guys to represent us, we have every right to ask questions regarding issues we care about and more and more then people's voices are being not only ignored but jailed simply for asking questions we have every right to ask.

Last I heard it was not a crime to be annoying and to be honest considering at times how passionate I get when discussing politics these days I can understand others acting in the same manner.

Anyway just my opinion and I have a son his age who is just as annoying and though at times I wouldn't mind his butt being thrown in the jail house for being annoying its really not right.

So for me it is not about him but the circumstances and those people blaming Kerry are just ignorant if you ask me, but it doesn't surprise me after all he has dem after his name and most Dem's these days all get bad press and bad feelings heaped on anything they seem to do...and that to makes my blood boil.

[KAZ]

68. Great post Auntie! I'm just not grokking this argument on DU. n/t

[Redstone]

76. Even though your post opposes the ideas in mine, I have to tell you this: Well said.

Redstone

[DemBones DemBones]

150. A very sensible and astute post.

:thumbsup:

[renie408]

79. I would like to add that if one of my kids acted like that in public, they wouldn't have had

to wait for the cops. I would have tasered them myself. Pitch a fit and tell me how I am NOT a liberal and how you can hear the 'jackboots'. Hey, I have an idea!! You should hold a candelight vigil!! With lots of weeping and gnashing of teeth and predictions that America is going to hell.

[Redstone]

80. Bad parent. BAD parent! I bet you wouldn't bail out one of your kids if he stole a car, either.

Bad, bad, BAD parent!

(PS: I'm one one of those, too.)

Redstone

[renie408]

87. I would visit them every Sunday. n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

83. The same could be said about the Code Pinko's at the Petraeus hearings

Should they have been tasered too?

They were CLEARLY there with NO other intention to disrupt it.

[brentspeak]

88. Well said.

:kick:

[Xenotime]

89. This is the neocon attempting to suppress the dems..

Welcom back to the fuckin' 60s

Freedom of speach is dead.

[SeattleGirl]

90. Redstone, I salute you!

:patriot:

[OzarkDem]

96. Stop making a fool of yourself

it gets boring after a while.

[merh]

110. even bitter little RNC provocateurs do not deserve to be

removed by excessive force and/or to be tasered.

Hell, even snotty nosed RNC provocateurs deserve to be treated humanely and have their rights respected.

Kerry wanted to answer the questions, they should have let him answer.

.

[Vektor]

117. Hahahaha!! Redstone, you rock.

I am personally a fan of the crown of thorns, sack cloth and ashes, and self-flagellation route. Thats the method I used to bemoan the moron who got his spoiled ass caned in Singapore for defacing public property.

I'm sure you remember that one. ;-)

[WildEyedLiberal]

119. When you speak, Redstone, I listen

Because you have an uncanny ability to cut through the bullshit.

K&R.

[Vektor]

124. And a lot of life experience to boot.

Redstone must come from a generation where if you acted like a fucking abusive idiot in public and got yourself reprimanded for it, nobody cried in their tea-cup over your dumb ass. You were told to shape up or ship out.

Nowadays, you can publicly, belligerently, and obscenely harass a public official, and disrupt an auditorium full of students to scream about blow-jobs and black magic, and you get a fucking medal for it, and a bunch of whiners self-flagellating on your behalf.

My god.

[WildEyedLiberal]

126. Word.

Right. Fucking. On.

:thumbsup:

I DON'T think this sad pathetic display of violent lawlessness is what the Founders had in mind when they wrote the First Amendment. They'd be ashamed to know how low we've sunk, on all sides of the political spectrum...

[Mythsaje]

120. Step out of line

and you'll get your reward...

We're supposed to be quiet and respectful of cops and authority figures. If they tell us to jump, we're supposed to ask "how high?" on the way up. Not doing what you're told by a police officer will result in verbal abuse, physical abuse, and/or the judicious application electrical current. And that, apparently, is how it's meant to be.

We ought to just get used to it, eh? Snap to, citizen! Do as you're told and we'll have no trouble.

It may be that this guy was being an ass. But where do you think they'll draw the line? What if he were questioning a Repug that way? Would we be so agreeable about it? Somehow I doubt it.

[gmoney]

121. Kinda agree with Redstone... don't forget Virginia Tech

I'm thinking the Virginia Tech shooting spree is still much on the mind of every campus police officer in the country, and how they've been blamed for basically NOT reacting to a situation until after it was well out of hand. The kid was behaving in a disruptive manner at close range to a Congressman, and refused to calm down or cooperate when asked in what appears to be a pretty calm manner by the campus police.

Randi Rhodes just played an edited audio clip that makes it sound like the kid finished his question and got zapped, when it was actually a minute or so of the officers trying to get the kid to calm down and cooperate and stop struggling that they chose to taser him. Evidently the taser wasn't set too high because the kid was still able to squeal like a stuck pig for a while afterwards, whereas most demonstrations I've seen reduce the person to a slobbering sack of sand.

I don't agree with them cutting his mic for asking a tough question, and agree that he has the right to speak his mind. A caller on Malloy indicates that someone (Kerry's security personnel?) had motioned to cut the kid off, which probably included getting him to shut up. The kid was obnoxious, and acted like an emo drama queen when they were trying to quiet him down, then kept trying to get away and to that extent, he didn't leave them much choice but to subdue him since he could have possibly been an unstable Sirhan Ruby type. Tasering may have been excessive, but it could have gone another way, and we'd be hearing cries about how the campus rent-a-cops failed to prevent an attack on Kerry. There are reasons "resisting arrest" is a crime.

It was wrong, it was unfortunate, it's stupid, and will ultimately reflect poorly on Democrats for some reason, but it's not the end of democracy as we know it.

[Warren Stupidity]

151. VT?

Yes don't forget the fact that our society has rationalized the use of lethal violence as a solution to many problems.

[Oak2004]

168. If the police can't tell the difference between failing to react appropriately to an initial murder

and someone ranting at a microphone, well, then I think UF needs new police.

College kids ranting at microphones is nothing unfamiliar to me. I saw it a lot (some of it directed *at* me as a student government leader), and did my share of it, in the early 70s. The world doesn't end when you tolerate it, whereas democracy might just end if one doesn't.

[RangerRK]

128. Disrupters should be tasered?

I suppose these people deserve this as well?

[baby_mouse]

132. YES! And filmed at the same time!

There can never be enough SM porn out there for the closetted cops!

[tkmorris]

133. The dude was an attention hound

And he acted like an ass.

He still didn't deserve to be tazed. He was a threat to no one.

And Redstone, you are this guys kin. Your approach to posting at DU is quite similar to his approach to asking questions at a forum. Lots of hyperbole, and go on the attack right out of the gate. Bulldoze anyone in your sights. I find it crass, in him AND in you.

[girl gone mad]

134. Of only tasers had been invented..

300 years ago.

:sarcasm:

[DemBones DemBones]

152. Tasers could have stopped the "Boston Tea Party."

Ah, progress. Progress toward martial law and a total police state.

[Apollo11]

145. Historical perspective

Annie Kenney, together with Christabel Pankhurst, has somewhat of a run-in with Mr Winston Churchill on 13th October 1905 in the Free Trade Hall in Manchester when she posed the question to Churchill and Sir Edward Grey, "If you are elected will you do your best to make women's suffrage a Government measure?".

http://www.iknow-northwest.co.uk/tourist_information/manchester/oldham/saddleworth.htm


Campaign for Women's suffrage continues

On 14 October, two young women decided to go to prison rather than pay a fine for causing a disturbance. Christabel Pankhurst and Annie Kenney were the first to be jailed for demanding the right to vote.

Uproar broke out at Manchester Free Trade Hall, England, when the women demanded to know if a Liberal government would give women the vote. Their protest came at the end of an election address by leading Liberal politician Sir Edward Grey, when Pankhurst and Kenney stood up and unfurled their banner, saying "Votes for Women". Their behaviour provoked an angry reaction from the crowd, who threw the two into the street, where they were arrested by police.

In 1903, Christabel Pankhurst had founded the Women's Political and Social Union with her mother Emmeline Pankhurst, the pioneer of women's suffrage. The arrest marked a new militancy in what would have been a peaceful political campaign.

http://library.thinkquest.org/27629/chronicle/1905.html


Christabel Pankhurst
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christabel Pankhurst (September 22, 1880 – February 13, 1958) was a suffragette born in Manchester, England.

Along with her mother Emmeline and others, Christabel co-founded the Women's Social and Political Union (WSPU) in 1903. In 1905, Christabel Pankhurst interrupted a Liberal Party meeting by shouting demands for voting rights for women. She was arrested and along with fellow suffragette Annie Kenney went to prison rather than pay a fine as punishment for their outburst. Their case gained much media interest and the ranks of the WSPU swelled following their trial. Emmeline began to take more militant action for the suffragette cause after her daughter's arrest and was herself imprisoned on many occasions for her principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christabel_Pankhurst

[Steerpike]

146. Listening to him and watching the video was painful.

I found myself hoping the police would taser him. As he screamed, "no bro! Don't do it!", I began to hope they would club him instead (repeatedly). He must be related to Frank Burns.

[treestar]

147. Maybe it's the straw that breaks the camel's back

We've had that attitude for the past three decades, and look where it's gotten us.

You can't honestly believe that there is no one out there who won't label you the asshole someday? In this society, and you're a Democrat?

At any rate, it doesn't call for police intervention. Just the idea that it does shows that you really believe the police aren't just to enforce the law, but your standards. Or that the law should automatically include your standards.

Is it ILLEGAL to leave without having your receipt checked? What is appalling to me is the assumption that it is. You must obey store security guards?

As for polite debate, it's nice, and maybe socially wrong to be an asshole, but it's not ILLEGAL and it doesn't call for police action!

[Warren Stupidity]

148. Excessive force.

The problem I have is not with the character of this person against whom you appear to have such profound anger toward, the problem I have is the routine use of excessive force, in this case a taser gun, by the police.

[girl gone mad]

154. How about the belligerent asshole who said this:

"It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law, so much as for the right. The only obligation which I have a right to assume is to do at any time what I think right. It is truly enough said that a corporation has no conscience; but a corporation of conscientious men is a corporation with a conscience."

"If the injustice is part of the necessary friction of the machine of government, let it go, let it go: perchance it will wear smooth--certainly the machine will wear out. If the injustice has a spring, or a pulley, or a rope, or a crank, exclusively for itself, then perhaps you may consider whether the remedy will not be worse than the evil; but if it is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then I say, break the law. Let your life be a counter-friction to stop the machine. What I have to do is to see, at any rate, that I do not lend myself to the wrong which I condemn."

This country was founded with acts of civil disobedience, by real and complex men who had personal agendas that often outweighed more altruistic motives. These men denied their government the right to automatic and unthinking obedience, believing obedience should be earned and should be withheld from an unjust government. Their ideas were right then and they are just as right now, foreign as they may seem in the era of free speech zones and warrantless wiretaps.

[sendero]

158. Gee is there a middle ground here?

The little snot should have been removed.

He should NOT have been tasered.

End of ridiculous story.

[redqueen]

160. WTF? This guy was handcuffed, and THEN tasered?

Do I have that right? But hey, it's okay cause he's just some "belligerent asshole"?

[onenote]

170. no. as I saw it, he was "tasered" and then handcuffed

he was struggling, having broken away from the cops who were escorting him out of the hall. After he was taken to the ground, he refused to let the cops cuff him and was still struggling to get out of their grasp. So, after warning him, a "drive stun" was applied, which is a less intense form of tasering used as a "pain compliance" technique. It causes momentary pain in a discrete area, and unlike the standard "incapicitating" form of taser use, does not impact the central nervous system or otherwise paralyze the target. In other words, its an alternative to older, more dangerous "pain compliance" techniques, like billy clubs, batons, fists, choke holds, etc.

[Drum]

161. Context matters...

what if it had been my (or your) brother, or father, or son?

Cold....

[moodforaday]

162. Three words for you:

free speech zones

[Vinca]

167. The cops were clearly out of line in this case. First, for going after

the guy when Kerry clearly was going to answer the guy's questions and secondly, for using the taser. After the guy was down, with all those cops on top of him and around him, he was subdued. The taser MIGHT have been a legitimate option if it had been just one cop trying to subdue the guy and he was letting the cop have it and the cop was in fear of being badly injured or killed. The tasering of this guy was punishment and there's no way to put lipstick on the pig. I'm a former cop and I'm usually "pro cop," but torture is torture is torture. I'm sure this guy won't need to worry about paying his college tuition anymore.

[wisteria]

169. You have a keen sense of the ridiculous. n/t