You're an American? You've got healthcare.

[Mythsaje]

Doesn't sound too difficult. Medicare for All. Universal, single-payer coverage by the government FOR the government...well, the people, which, IS, after all, the government. Isn't it?

That's what we're after, right? A system in which you, as a medical consumer, need a checkup, an operation, medicine, etc... and you make your appointment, see the doctor, get sent to any specialists you require, and the government is then billed on your behalf. You're paying your taxes, you get a natural benefit. Just like your taxes pays for the military, the police, the fire department, the roads on which you drive, etc...etc...

So what, pray tell, is THIS?

"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," she said. But she said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview — like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination."

True universal, single-payer Medicare for all healthcare insurance, which could be paid for by earmarking the CURRENT amount paid in taxes on cigarettes for universal coverage for all, would make this kind of red-tape, bureacratic bullshit absolutely unnecessary.

This is reverse Robin Hood crap. This is a Right Winger's wet dream. Mandated insurance, with the responsibility to make sure of it on the CITIZEN?

Right now people are struggling to pay the bills they already have. Outrageous rents, rising car insurance, gas prices, food prices...

HOLY FUCKING SHIT.

Did Hillary just blink? Did she just make the one fatal error that could capsize an otherwise perfect campaign?

No wonder she didn't reveal it all at once.

If Obama and Edwards don't swoop in on this little mouse standing in the field waving a tiny red flag, we're all in some very deep shit. Because this plan isn't a plan. It's a mauling. It'd be worse than what we have NOW.

I'd like to see someone argue, "hey, it might be a good idea to mandate that the working poor have yet ANOTHER monthly payment to juggle. So the rich Insurance Co. motherfuckers can make even MORE money off the backs of the sick."

And what about people who CAN'T get insurance at anything approaching a reasonable rate because of pre-existing conditions? Ooops. Can't get work cause you can't get insurance. So sad.

Hey, why not, right? We could use another underclass, new untouchables on the par with ex-cons. At least the uninsured and enemployable would be able to vote, right?

This is nothing more than spitting in our face and telling us it's raining.


Can't tell I'm angry and disgusted by this, can you?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. You got it...

Unfortunately...

K&R

Yeah, I can tell you're angry and disgusted!

As am I...

:nuke:

[Cleita]

2. We already have a candidate who is advocating for Medicare

for all and that's Dennis Kucinich, but no one wants to pay any attention to him. Hillary's plan is a big giveaway to the for profit health care industry at the expense of those who need health care. We still aren't going to get health care out of it just the expense of health care.

[Comadreja]

6. And will the states use this as an excuse

to drop their subsidized healthcare plans? Anyone over 50 would do well to join with AARP in focusing Boomer outrage on all political healthprofiteer weasels.

[regnaD kciN]

8. That's right...

We still aren't going to get health care out of it just the expense of health care.

From the experience of states where auto insurance is mandatory, insurance companies come up with a series of policies designed for the low-income driver, which has the absolute lowest coverage permissible under the law. Not that these policies are cheap, either -- they're "what the market can bear" -- but they provide very little of the coverage of a real policy at a cost somewhat lower, which is often all the driver can afford.

Likely this will be the result of "individual mandate" health care programs as well. You'll get lots of lower-income people spending their own money (or having tax credits pay it for them) on policies that provide coverage in name only. No benefit for the insured, but plenty of profit for the provider. If the government demands more realistic levels of coverage from those insurers, they will simply raise the premiums to the point where lower-income people can't afford them, and the howls of protest from those so affected (or from the HHS and Treasury, which will have to give out tax credits for the higher amount) will force the government to back down and approve those minimal-coverage, maximum-profit policies anyway.

I remember when a former governor here in Washington tried enacting "insurance reform" which, among other things, prevented insurers from refusing anyone based on pre-existing conditions. The insurance companies, of which there are only a handful operating in the state, simply decided as a bloc to stop offering personal (not obtained from your job) policies altogether. Faced with a significant percentage of the electorate suddenly finding themselves uninsurable, and venting their anger at the state government, the governor had no choice but to repeal the reforms...and, for good measure, throw in a few extra goodies for the insurance companies to come back and start offering the same policies they had before, albeit at a higher cost and with far more restrictions. Why shouldn't we expect the same thing from "the other Washington," especially under a DLC administration? :shrug:

[Kiouni]

3. Obama and Kucinich are the only ones with a

plan worth doing.

[AZBlue]

49. Obama's plan only covers children. Not much of a plan.

[sandnsea]

4. This will destroy her in the GE

and I swear I am not saying that just because it's Hillary. A mandate with generous assistance and a simple purchasing process is one thing. But a mandate with tax credits(!?) - and a penalty if you can't pay - that's the worst of everything I've seen. I really can't believe she did this.

And for the record, I've been including the fact that Obama's plan calls for the creation of an Insurance Exchange that will guarantee every policy has the same base coverage that his federal subsidized program has. So he does have insurance reform as part of his program.

[regnaD kciN]

5. Amen...

I posted one other point in another thread: if, under HRC's plan, employers are supposed to provide coverage for their employees, why would you need to show you already have insurance at a job interview. Unless...employers choose to only consider applicants who already have their own policies, so that the company could save money by hiring them instead of someone for whom they'd have to foot the bill for insurance.

But it does raise the issue: if buying your own policy is supposed to be mandatory, what sanctions would exist for those who fail to do so? According to Mitt Romney's plan for Massachusetts (which HRC has clearly borrowed from) the eventual result (not phased-in immediately) would be that you'd have to show "proof of insurance" when filing your state tax return, or else be subject to a fine of one-half the cost of an average health policy. To give you an idea, for an individual, that fine would currently come to $2,000 per year; for a family, $5,500 per year. A great idea, when the greatest reason someone would have for not carrying insurance would be not being able to afford it... :eyes:

[Mythsaje]

7. If WE can see this, the bloggers and pundits will too...

Really, really bad move on her part.

[regnaD kciN]

10. The bloggers will...

...the inside-the-beltway pundits, most of whom have quite nice health plans and have already anointed HRC as the sure nominee, won't care.

[Mythsaje]

12. Probably right...

But the bloggers are starting to gain influence and they know it. I'm not sure a pitched battle over this healthcare plan is where the pundits will want to go.

[silverweb]

9. Yell it from the rooftops.

Kucinich, as good a man as he is, is not a contender for the primary.

So the ball is now Barack's and it's a free throw.

Take it and slam dunk it, Obama!

[Mythsaje]

11. As soon as I saw it, I started yelling...

And I'm not going to stop until this is OFF THE TABLE.

I'm not sure anyone can defend this...anyone here, at least. I'm still waiting for someone to try. I'm curious. Seriously.

[silverweb]

20. I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more.

It'll be interesting, for sure.

[fenriswolf]

14. yeah kucinich cant win

because people keep saying we gotta vote for the people whom the media sponser. That is true but i am sick and tired of doing it. HRC can go suck a hose for all i care and her health care system will line the already bulging pockets of the corporate elite. But i will be damned if I am going to settle again in this hour of need for america. Kucinich is the only one for me, he is the only one who has been where I have been. he is the only one who understands for humanity to survive we can no longer pander to politicians. He understands he needs to pander to humanity, for peace and love. I will not vote for someone who is going to leave "all options on the table" are we back in the cold war? any war we make is one that is manufactured and anyone who doesnt see that is part of the problem.

[Bryn]

15. Good!!

::applause: Dennis Kucinich is my man!

[Bryn]

16. By the way, WELCOME to DU

:hi:

[silverweb]

19. I understand what you're saying.

And I understand how the unfairness of Dennis's situation may make you angry and bitter.

But one look at the numbers out there just emphasizes the reality of the situation: Kucinich is not a contender for the primary, and all the anger and hopeful wishing in the world will not change that.

Facing reality is necessary right now. I hope Dennis makes all the waves he can and brings attention to all the important issues that he can. Then he can go back to being the effective and well-loved Congressman from Ohio, where he is also needed.

When Obama says he's leaving "all options on the table," he just means that he's willing to listen to all viewpoints. Like he told the pharmaceutical and insurance companies, there's "a place at the table" for them to be heard, but they're not going to be allowed to buy up all the seats anymore.

[Mythsaje]

24. He's risen in my estimate over the past several days...

Honestly.

[silverweb]

26. He's always been up there in mine.

But Hillary has been running strong in California and unless I'm certain that Obama will sweep the state by a very safe margin, I can't risk diverting my vote to Kucinich just to make a statement.

[fenriswolf]

27. the numbers lie, or at least the people who give them do

listen I'm not letting the media tell me who's winning anymore. I'm not letting people try to reason with me and you know what if dennis kucinich gets lost in the minority so be it, but people who wanted to vote for kucinich will see the numbers he gets and wonder....hmmm if everyone who wanted to vote for him like i have, i wonder what he would be at. Now change the voteing for him to espousing him to everyone one you meet and i wonder what his numbers would be. The only reason people like you don't wanna vote is because "reality must be faced" every day I talk to people and everyday I tell people have you heard of kucinich? they say no....I spend five minutes telling them what he stands for and give them two websites and say look him up...you might like him. I'll bet you i'm converting more people for kucinich then you are converting away.

[silverweb]

29. Carry on, then.

You keep on converting as many people as you can to Dennis, because I'm not trying to convert them away from him.

When it comes down to the wire, though, and he still has no chance of winning the nomination, I hope he'll thow his support to Obama.

Oh, and welcome to DU!

:hi:

[fenriswolf]

31. lol thanks

sorry it sometimes escapes me that some people can have an intelligant opposing point of view with being viewed as an enemy. I think that if people can at least see what a good third party candidate can do they might be more inclined to vote for him. Eventually they might have a serious third party contender for presidant. You have to understand me to understand my passion. I believe america is circling the drains in a couple of ways. But if we can get someone who was not brought up in the system of politics or corrupted by it, that the circle can be broken quickly, forcefully and forever. My hope that i place in kucinich is the hope that the ongoing cycle of corruption in the white house and outlying circles of government can once and for all be broken, but if we keep going highest polling repub to highest polling demo the cycle will contineu, in four years we will have 75 percent of america talking about democrates spending and democrate liberals controlling the media and well vote in another "strong republican from texas.....or wyoming....or wherever they still have ranches" I'm just tired of it.

[Maven]

50. Where are you getting this from?

The options aren't "on the table"--they've been considered already. His plan is available for anyone to read:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/HealthPlanFull.pdf

Obama's plan relies on private insurance, JUST like Hillary's, except Obama wouldn't even give you the option to buy into Medicare instead.

I can't understand people who think that HIllary is "establishment" and Obama is such a rebel, when their policies are so close together. The only explanation is that they've bought into the prevailing narratives (Hillary the corporatist, Obama the rockstar) without actually looking deeper and comparing their actual policies.

[superkia]

46. If the media wasnt agenda driven, Kucinich would have more support.

He hasn't got the advertising that the main stream candidates have received on national television. I think people believe its that people don't support him when thats not the problem. If you take two stores providing the same kind of product, one gets national advertising non stop and the other gets next to nothing because they don't have the backing of wealth and corporations, which one is going to dominate in sales? It doesn't matter if the store with no advertising is better or not, if no one knows about them, they cant compete.

That is what is happening to Dennis Kucinich, there is a reason the media is ignoring him and his issues and messages that he supports, its not good for the wealthy and corporations, he is for the people.

Most consumers when told about a better product for their dollar, they will educate themselves on it and if its better, buy it. I cant imagine a consumer refusing to buy it because its a smaller company and its MOST LIKELY going to go out of business? Wouldnt the consumer purchase the better product in hopes that it will stay around and if it doesnt, THEN go and buy the other product that will still be available. For some reason with politics, most wont even educate themselves on that candidate without the advertising and when they do, they say he MOST LIKELY wont win so I'm not wasting my time?

If everyone that thinks Dennis Kucinich has some better ideas than the main stream candidates, would vote for him in the primaries, he would have a chance. If he then didnt win, we still have a democrat that won the majority that would represent us.

[truedelphi]

13. This should not surprise anyone.Way back in 1993 or '94 Hillary said

That under her plan, any family of four that made 24 thousand dollars would only pay 4 thousand dollars a year for their health care.

Like I guess in her mind, that class of people could just cancel the two times a year visits to Maui or have the personal masseuse over less often.

She has never really gotten it.

[tkmorris]

17. You have a link for that?

That's a quote I could use if I can cite a reference.

[truedelphi]

43. Sorry, no. She said it in her speeches at the time

The internet was not really in use much, not the way we have it today, and I don't know if it got quoted by newspapers or not.

But in the same speeches she asked that We the People call and show Congress our support for her bill.

I realized I could never support such a thing - so never made any calls.

[charlie]

18. Dust off the Harry and Louise ads

and re-cue them to the soundtrack of that golden oldie, Unfunded Mandate. That old time Republican big band swing is coming back into style.

You'd think she would've learned from the debacle that smacked her back into the box for the better part of a decade.

[jpgray]

21. If you care about health care, I don't see how you can vote/caucus for anyone but Dennis

[Mythsaje]

22. I don't think Dennis can win the GE...

It's as simple as that.

[jpgray]

23. He can't, but unless you're in IA, NH or SC, why not vote one's conscience?

[Mythsaje]

25. True enough...

We'll see...

[grasswire]

28. I believe that at heart, Hillary is an authoritarian.

And I just can't support that in a Democrat.

[jpgray]

30. Did you support the other Clinton?

Lots of similarities there. Is there something particular in Hillary but not in Bill that turns you off?

[Mythsaje]

32. You know...I hadn't thought about it, but

I'm not sure Bill IS an authoritarian by nature. I think, if left to his own devices, he'd just rather let people be who they are, as long as they gave him the same respect. There's still a bit of the hippie lurking in Bill. Sax player, joshing around with the kids in the MTV interviews, just a regular guy in a lot of ways. After he left office he actually said he thought we just legalize pot.

But he's STRONGLY influenced by his wife. And others, most likely. Doesn't make him bad, or even weak. Just prefers to travel in the path of least resistence when he can. Easily prodded in one direction or another.

Of course, I could be wrong, but...that's my feeling.

[jpgray]

33. How do you rationalize DOMA? Do you think a sort of image-based analysis is valid?

I'm not saying your view isn't correct and I'm no Hillary fan, but is it possible you have a more negative reaction to Hillary based on image? It's true she doesn't have Bill's charisma or likability, but their politics from what I've seen are quite similar.

[Mythsaje]

34. I don't recognize that acronym...

However, I'm willing to bet Hillary is the more forceful, decisive, and focused half of that couple. I think she's more take-charge than Bill is. It's not always a bad thing. It's an important aspect of leadership.

But I'm not sure I like where she wants to lead us.

[Usrename]

35. defense of mariage act

and you make many good points

You know, she said something at the AFL-CIO forum in Chicago that left me spitting obscenities at my teevee. While talking about her three-point plan for Iraq, she said: "Secondly, we’ve got to put more pressure on the Iraqi government, including withholding aid from them if they don’t begin to stabilize the country themselves."

She said this at the exact same time that we had all learned about most of the people in Baghdad had no water for about two months (it was the middle of summer, for crying out loud).

Not a word from her about withholding payments from Halliburton or any of the other contractors that are screwing the Iraqis. Just a threat to withhold aid from the Iraqi government. And she says that words matter. What kind of message is she trying to send to those folks that are suffering there? I don't get it!

[Mythsaje]

37. Has anyone in this administration ever bothered to explain

WHY Bagdhad still doesn't have water or electricity? Why all of the our resources, our military might, our corporate power, can't manage it?

Only one possible answer. They don't WANT to. It isn't a priority.

Not that our media makes much of it, from what I can tell. I personally think it in itself paints a very stark picture of the situation. You're talking about democracy and political process in a land where the people are having trouble finding clean water and are living amidst chaos and ruin that WE brought them?

For the sake of oil, according to Greenspan. And many, many others. He's just the latest.

[Vilis Veritas]

51. The priority is BASES.

We need bases for the next phase. I am sure you read PNAC's manifesto...

“Of course, the United States must be prudent in how it exercises its
power. But we cannot safely avoid the responsibilities of global
leadership of the costs that are associated with its exercise. America
has a vital role in maintaining peace and security in Europe, Asia,
and the Middle East. If we shirk our responsibilities, we invite
challenges to our fundamental interests. The history of the 20th
century should have taught us that it is important to shape
circumstances before crises emerge, and to meet threats before they
become dire. The history of the past century should have taught us
to embrace the cause of American leadership.”

– From the Project’s founding Statement of Principles

Peace.

[kdmorris]

36. DOMA = Defense of Marriage Act

The Defense of Marriage Act, or DOMA, is the commonly-used name of a federal law of the United States that is officially known as Pub. L. No. 104-199, 110 Stat. 2419 (Sept. 21, 1996) and codified at 1 U.S.C. § 7 and 28 U.S.C. § 1738C. The law has two effects.

1. No state (or other political subdivision within the United States) need recognize a marriage between persons of the same sex, even if the marriage was concluded or recognized in another state.
2. The Federal Government may not recognize same-sex or polygamous marriages for any purpose, even if concluded or recognized by one of the states.

The bill was passed by Congress by a vote of 85-14 in the Senate<1> and a vote of 342-67 in the House of Representatives<2>, and was signed by President Bill Clinton on September 21, 1996.

[truedelphi]

44. Acronym DOMA - what's it refer to?? n/t

[freefall]

38. Evidently she hasn't seen Sicko. Another good reason to vote for Dennis.

He didn't need to see Sicko. He had already proposed the solution to the problem. Single payer. Single payer. Single payer.

Vote for Dennis Kucinich and we can move towards a healthy peaceful world.

Peace,

freefall

[HardRocker2005]

39. Don't hold back. LOL. you have got it right. nt

[Trailrider1951]

40. I'm angry too

our healthcare system is BROKEN!!! Insurance is not the solution, IT IS THE PROBLEM!! If I didn't pay $500 a month for insurance, I could bank that money and pay my own expenses out of pocket, since I'm never sick. And, as far as my tax money is concerned, I would MUCH rather it go toward your grandma's meds or your kid's operation than to be SQUANDERED on Cheney's War for Oil in Iraq! No, I'm not angry, I AM LIVID!!! Our democrats have sold out, and sold us ouT!

[B Calm]

41. Hillary was the President of the Young Republicans when

she was in college. But... some here in DU say, that's not important!

[IronLionZion]

42. No, we're paying for it, but we're just not getting it. nt

[bbgrunt]

45. this corporate health care proposal is a disgrace.

[porphyrian]

47. Kick for something we should be talking about. - n/t

[Maven]

48. Obama and Edwards aren't "swooping in" because their plans are based on the SAME CONCEPT

Edwards even proposes the same "mandate" to buy private insurance.

Obama's plan is an utter joke. Subsidies for the poor and tax incentives for small business? Please.

What's unfortunate is that Hillary's plan actually makes the most sense out of all three! At least she proposes a system that will force private insurers to compete with a government program (Medicare) to keep prices down, instead of just promising regulation to make premiums "affordable." And, her plan would base the amount of premiums you pay on a percentage of your income. It would also ban denials of coverage based on pre-existing conditions. (Not to defend her strategy, just to address some of the nightmare scenarios you came up with which are unlikely to happen.)

There's a big problem here, but it's not Hillary-specific. Let's address the larger issue of our party's failure to lead on this issue, while real progressives like Kucinich get sidelined.

[Mythsaje]

52. I'm beginning to get that picture...

But the plans, bad as they are, don't bother me as much as that single quote from Hillary.

[latebloomer]

53. Kick

Kucinich is the only candidate who is telling it like it is.

[Mythsaje]

54. And, unfortunately, he's getting no traction...

If he was getting just a bit more, he could force the others into rethinking their plans.

He should put out a press release condemning all of their plans for pandering, reverse robin-hood nonsense that does nothing to benefit the people and everything to benefit the insurance companies.

This is "feeding the monster."