I'm watching Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead" on Turner Classic Movies

[Hissyspit]

It's one of the funniest comedies I've ever seen. :7

[WCGreen]

1. It sure is a horrible movie isn't it...

IT's one of those movies that you just have to watch...

Like a train wreck...

[aquart]

4. Absolutely.

[Spinzonner]

2. Howard Roark

Terrorist

[aquart]

5. That, and just one pissy, self-important bastard.

Blowing up livable housing because he didn't like the decoration?

[Hissyspit]

8. He has to destroy the architecture in order to save it.

Or something.

[enigmatic]

3. Ha!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6943531&mesg_id=6943531

[Hissyspit]

7. Oh, yeah. She's hot.

But that's part of the comedy. Gary Cooper and his driving jackhammer.

Of course, I put this in GD to keep it on a political level. :)

[MisterP]

6. you know how "The Wizard of Oz" goes with "Dark Side of the Moon"?

this goes with "Whip It"

[Warren DeMontague]

9. The first comment on IMDB is a riot: "Boy, does Ayn Rand like to hear herself talk"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041386/

There is not one line of dialogue in this film that isn't overly dramatic and patently didactic. Rand does for dialogue what Norma Desmond does for mannerisms, except in the case of Norma Desmond there's an excuse -- she's nuts. Rand as a screenwriter just comes off as an egomaniac and she proves it with every over-stretched word. Even Hamlet would have told her to shut up.

:rofl:

[kskiska]

34. Gary Cooper objected to his lengthy courtroom diatribe

and said he didn't even know what he was saying. Rand had the final say on everything, and it was suggested she be brought back to the set to advise. Cooper didn't want her around and just went ahead and did it.

[PDenton]

10. Objectivism

Objectivism is the Scientology or Mormonism of philosophy. Pretty much highly dogmatic, not really all that original or well reasoned, but you can't deny the fact it sways alot of people. People desperately want to believe they are gods and somebody else is just holding them back, that's the deep down dirty little secret of Objectivism. There's a bunch of word twisting but deep down Objectivism is an atheistic religion with its own soteriology based on the torturing of common everyday words like "altruism", "force", and "greed"; salvation comes from breaking free from ever having to feel ethically responsible to anybody or anything else.

If you can't get enough of your daily dose of Objectivist laughs, there is always a game called Bioshock (PC/XBox 360). It's set in an art-deco inspired underwater psuedoutopia built by a Charles Foster Kane/Ayn Rand wannabe. Very good game, very scary but beautiful at the same time.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

11. Rand's Objectivism isn't what philosophers talk about

when they talk about objectivism, however.

[liberaldemocrat7]

14. "People desperately want to believe they are gods"

"People desperately want to believe they are gods and somebody else is just holding them back, that's the deep down dirty little secret of Objectivism."

Didn't a cadre of people in a Western European country during the 4th decade of the 20th century say that to their Citizens in their country?

I believe the person who started telling peoople that message had a name that began with an H.


Yes, Hitler, I believe his name and the people holding them back I believe the Jews.

Today the poor appear the new Jews in America at least to the Republicans.

[PDenton]

16. the difference of course is that Nazis believed in collective identity

Objectivitss and Nietschian philosophy do not believe that collective groups are entities worthy of ethical consideration or value. The Nazis OTOH believed individuals own interests were irrelevent compared to their race-based/nation-based collective. Nazism is indirectly related to Objectivism, however, as both were inspired by Nietsche to some extent.

[liberaldemocrat7]

19. Wouldn't Randians believe the corporate collective worthy of their praise?

While these Randians would eschew the importance of consumer groups and unions?

[PDenton]

20. Unions and consumer-groups are for little people

It's like the Star Wars universe, there are either the heroes and villains, or the mooks that die in droves and have no names.

I have no idea what Randians would say about joining a union, that's not the kind of people they like to talk about, if you know what I mean (the mooks whose blood greases the wheel of the machine). They'd probably say you should advance through your own merits, or not at all.

There is a bitter, dark side to Objectivism. I get the feeling that alot of Randians actually consider themselves failures by their own standards, but they deflect the blame to other people-" it's the government statists faults that I can't achieve greatness". This meme is common in right wing politics, as well. Republican stooges love to blame liberals for doing everything from destroying American jobs to making Baby Jesus cry. Anything to rationalize why their pickup trucks are filled with bondo (you know, if it weren't for the dirty taxes we'd all be driving a Lexus, right?) As I said it appeals to people without an ounce of humility.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

30. Just to be clear:

Nietzsche was not a Nazi; he can't be held accountable for being badly misinterpreted.

He hated anti-Semites. And he was nothing like Rand or the Nazis.

[ludwigb]

37. That's a misinterpretation

Definitely of Nietzsche, who can't be pinned down to a strict individualism. He speaks in favor of a desirable natural (or unnatural) selection among groups. Objectivists don't really believe in groups but they tend to support a nationalist foreign policy.

I'm not convinced Rand read Nietzsche's mature philosophy, but I suppose there is some Zarathustra in her fantasies. National socialism, also, is at best loosely connected to Nietzshce--Nietzsche loathed anti-semitism which is one of Nazism's core values.

[soothsayer]

22. objectivism is just capitalism gone mad

[Hissyspit]

24. I've seen images from Bioshock and it's pretty creative. I didn't realize

the Ran 'objectivism' connection. I was kind of making fun of her 'philosophies,' full of logic fallacies, when I posted this, but also King Vidor's awful version of it! I was thinking of picking up Bioshock previously and maybe I will now, although I don't really need to be playing video games, too much.

[FormerDittoHead]

39. Look for the demo - yes, it's a tribute to Rand's perfect society, alright. n/t

[yardwork]

27. Uh-oh. My kids play Bioshock. I didn't know it was Ayn Rand influenced.

Please tell me more about the game. I need to talk with the kids.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. I wouldn't call it "influenced" in a way that it's shown positively.

The worldview is held up to no small amount of direct and indirect ridicule. The "every man for himself" philosophy of the guy who built the city is not presented as anything admirable, in fact it's fairly obvious that's where the trouble started.

Also, while it was clear to me, immediately, that they were riffing on Ayn Rand, it's probably done too subtly for kids to pick up on, anyway. There are some other funny bits in the game, too, where they take some background jabs at current events and the Bush Administration/WOT: Like a PR message that plays on a broken loop in part of the game that says "Questioning the council only emboldens the bandits", that sort of thing.

Honestly- and I found it an entertaining and extremely visually well done game- the thing I would be more concerned about if it were MY kids is, it's a pretty violent game.. and I don't know how old your kids are, but some of the imagery, etc. is fairly disturbing. Adults, okay, but I wouldn't want really young kids playing it. JMO.

[yardwork]

33. Thank you! I feel relieved. They are teenagers and they play Halo

We discussed the violence level of the game before they got it. I'm not happy about it, but they are 14 and 16.

[Warren DeMontague]

35. Yeah, I'm pretty psyched for Halo 3, myself, and I'm an adult.

In my experience, though, the Halo games are a little more sci-fi and not as gory as some of the mutant zombie first person shooter stuff out there.

But, then, I'm a pacifist and a hippie, but I do like war games and shooter games. I think most people can distinguish between a game and reality. If your kids are mature, I wouldn't be overly concerned.. littler ones I might think could get nightmares and stuff.

You could probably take the opportunity that they're playing Bioshock to talk to them about Ayn Rand, the philosophies (and problems) associated with "trickle down" economic theories, etc. Also Art Deco and the 50s and 60s. There is some educational stuff in there, if one knows what to look for.

[yardwork]

36. Thank you for this good information! I will initiate some conversations with them...

[cgrindley]

12. The sad thing is that the movie is fifty million times better

than the wretched book. But then again, I love Ayn Rand. Without her, there wouldn't be any randroids and there's nothing more amusing than tormenting a randroid at some cocktail party.

[baby_mouse]

13. Insane gibberish, the whole thing.

So THAT's who wrote that stupid film. I wondered.

Actually, it's kind of reassuring. I'd seen this movie before and was under the impression that there must be TWO Randish idiots out there, Rand herself and the fool that penned this garbage.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to throw a statue out of a window in a fit of pedestrian-endangering neurosis. No! I will not be a slave to beautiful statues! NO! *wristbrow*

[Hissyspit]

25. In the movie...

She says she threw it down "the air shaft," but it doesn't look like any air shaft, it looks like a courtyard.

[izzie]

15. That takes me back to my youth, I read all her books

I am glad I did but she does go over the top a lot.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

17. OMG! The scene with the whip!!

This is one of the most hilarious movies ever made.

[Junkdrawer]

18. BEST AYN RAND POST EVER....

DUer Telly Savalas from 10/2005:

Ella turned towards the window, folded her arms, and said, "Kent, I cannot understand why you read that drivel. If there's anything worse than a bad political philosopher, it's a bad political philosopher who writes bad novels to present her flawed ideas. It's bad enough when she writes nonfiction works that foist assertions and conjecture on the reader and tries to pass it off as 'reason', but when she tries to dress it up in a fictional work with one-dimensional characters and a cheesy plot, it's downright putrid. I'd go so far as to say that her writings dishonor the thousands of years of evolution required for humans to develop language skills.

"The worst element of her 'writing' is how utterly ridiculous the dialogue is. In real life people converse with one another, they don't take turns delivering speeches to one another. If she'd ever spent anytime actually interacting with another human being who wasn't clinically insane, she'd know this and it would be reflected in her writing.

"Furthermore, don't you think she could go to more effort to be a bit more terse? I mean, Jesus Christ, I've seen bumperstickers that are more nuanced than one of her novels, so I don't see why she can't be more succinct in the exposition of her cheap little 'ideas'. Does it really take an 800 page novel to say "guvmint bad, capitalism good"?

"Face it, Kent. She's a second-rate hack that makes Jackie Collins look like Dostoevsky. Put that shit down and do something a bit more intellectually engaging. For instance, there's a Dukes of Hazzard marathon on the country network. Try watching that instead."

Kent set the book on the table and glanced up at Ella.

"Ella," he said, "I see your collectivist friends have poisoned your mind with these bizarre ideas about word economy and multi-dimensional characters. Such things are only devices to enslave the Individualist. Every word the Individualist says is a gift to the universe, so the universe benefits the more he speaks. Hence all this silliness about being brief when trying to make a point does not apply to the Individualist.

"Let's be clear, Ella, that when I say the Individualist gives a gift to the world by expressing his thoughts, it is not altruism that motivates the giving of this gift. No. No. No. Altruism is an evil sentiment that only results in atrocities like child labor laws and homeless people being fed. Thus the Individualist is ego-driven. By satisfying my own desires and showing complete contempt for the needs of others, I make the laissez-faire capitalist system work as it should and the benefits rain down on everyone. Although many economists prefer to use the term 'trickle down.'

"For instance, when I enriched your life last week by giving you a 45 minute lecture on the necessity of abolishing the capital gains tax, I didn't do it because I wanted to please you. Rather I did it because I love the sound of my own voice. The fact that you were enlightened by my observations is only secondary. Nevertheless it demonstrates my point about how being selfish is superior to being altruistic. Had I been altruistic and payed heed to you wish for me to...what was that phrase you used repeatedly? 'Shut the fuck up', I believe it was? Well, had I done that, then you'd have spent the rest of your life unaware of the great thoughts that course through my mind on an hourly basis.

"Yes, Ella. It amazes me how unwilling the collectivist mind is to accept the truth. Why wasn't it just last week when you were claiming that society should chain down the Individual by using some of his resources to aid victims of Hurricane Katrina? After I was able to overcome my feeling of horror and disgust that you would suggest denying the Individual his Freedom, I successfully rebutted your point by observing that A equals A, therefore it logically follows that the so called victims should fend for themselves and not depend on the altruism of collectivists. Rather than daring to challenge this impenetrable logic, you simply dismissed my comments by calling me an asshole. Were I a petty collectivist, I might have taken offense at that remark. However, I am a noble Individual and know that your hurtful words were motivated by your envy of my superior intellect. For it is individuals such as I who propel society forward.

"Um...the Individual's freedom should be regarded as...um...Egoism is the one true...um...er...what was it we were talking about, Ella?"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=4973593#4975243

[Hissyspit]

28. I remember that!

Should get a grandfather clause DUzy.

[Junkdrawer]

29. In the running for the Best DUzy of All Time....

Witty on so many levels...

[myrna minx]

32. This post belongs in the DU hall of fame, if we had such a place. n/t

[soothsayer]

21. gawd, he comes across as such a drip and not at all like a noble rebel

[Hissyspit]

26. Well, the fact that Gary Cooper couldn't act has something to do with that,

beyond the silliness of the character.

[Rhiannon12866]

23. I loved the book when I was 15, read all of them, but "The Fountainhead" was my favorite.

But I was never able to sit thought the movie. Gary Cooper and Patricia Neal were not how I pictured the characters and the diatribes did not translate well to the screen. I couldn't even finish "Atlas Shrugged" because of the diatribes. Guess I was smarter than I thought, at 15...:-)

[Johnny Appleseed]

38. Anthem is my personal favorite book by her...

in terms of her and philosophy, I get more out of Nietzsche...