Can we drop the hysterical hyperbole on cops for god sake?

[Mortos]

Every time someone posts a video of police arresting someone here, the inevitable (and silly) question soon follows, "is it fascism yet?", followed by cries of nazi, pigs, fuck the police etc. The people here who instantly side with the "victim" being arrested have no credibility in my eyes. To view every incident through jaded eyes and with a foregone conclusion is ignorant, inflammatory and useless.

I work for a metropolitan police department. I have been a law enforcement officer in the past.

The majority of police officers do their job professionally. They put their lives on the line every single day. The respond to the calls in which people are shooting, robbing, raping, beating, stealing, damaging, yelling, molesting, cussing, drinking, crazy, stupid, hurting, suicidal, homicidal, and many other things the average outraged citizen will never have to experience.

People absolutely don't understand that the processes that take place during an arrest. They don't understand it is not a fair fight and that when an officer uses force, it is because he or she has to. They have to win the fight every single time or someone may die. There is an escalation of force procedure that is taught to every police officer in this country and the use of force is dictated by the person being arrested.

The arrest of the student at the University of Florida was justified. Excessive force was not used and the arrestee was actively and very physically resisting. He deserved to be tazed and was. He was warned in advance that if he continued to resist he would be tazed. He did and he was.

I watch video after video here with titles like "cops beat down protester" or "cops football tackle reverend" and watch them only to find that the police, in most cases, acted very professionally and did their jobs. They are not punching people in the face or beating them with clubs. They are attempting to do their jobs with the least amount of force possible and in nearly every single case, the person being arrested or asked to leave escalates the use of force by actively physically resisting. You want to resist arrest in a protest setting? Do it passively. Lay down on the ground and comply but don't assist. When you pull away, flail your arms, scream and try to run, the officers have no choice but to escalate their use of force.

I wonder if anyone here has ever tried to subdue someone who is actively resisting? It is not easy and it is not pretty and if there are police officers involved there is at least one deadly weapon at the scene that is only a few feet or inches away from the person being arrested. Many officers in this country are shot with their own weapons after a suspect gets their hands on it in a physical struggle.

That kid at UF was acting very strange, very agitated and physically aggressive toward the police and a sitting U.S. senator. He apparently barged in front of the line and began shouting at Senator Kerry who responded politely to his aggressive questions but then refused to let Kerry answer. They then cut his mike after he went over the alloted question time and officers asked him to leave, he refused. A female officer much smaller than him then tried to escort him away from the podium he violently jerked away and a male officer also attempted to take his arm and escort him out. He then began flailing his arms and attempted to run. A third officer then joined the fray and picked up the student and began to carry him out. He broke free again and physically resisted and fell to the ground where he was told repeatedly to stop resisting. He kept on physically struggling against the officers. He was then tazed after being warned again to comply. He was then cuffed and escorted out claiming he was going to be killed by the police. The police officers followed their training and did everything correctly. There was absolutely no excessive use of force in this case. As soon as the suspect was compliant, the police de-escalated.

I know my view is in the minority here but I think someone has to be reasonable and state the truth no matter how unpopular that might be. Most cops are good people trying to make a difference in extremely difficult situations. There are cases of abuse and excessive force which should be exposed and the officers involved should be punished, period! Most arrests don't rise to the level of fascist nazi pigs beating down an innocent saint who was minding their own business and the continued use of this type of hyperbole is dishonest, inflammatory and hurtful to those who work in this field. It pushes good people out of the field and creates a further us vs them mentality within police departments.

Every day I hear the calls come in from scared, hurt and angry victims of crime and I see our officers go to call after call trying to hold back the tide of criminals and scumbags who want to hurt and rob and rape. If people knew how outnumbered and overworked the police are, maybe they would cut them a little slack. There is a thin line holding back chaos and criminality and that line is the police. At the very least view their actions with an open mind and reserve judgment until the facts are in.

Here is a site that honors police officers who died trying to do their jobs. 128 have died so far this year.

http://www.odmp.org/index.php

[Bonobo]

1. Listen; It is a circular argument when people say they followed "procedure"

Many of our complaints are with the "procedure" and you see, we the citizens, not the police, are the ones that ultimately decide what is proper and called for.

I say the police are out of control and this is backed up when you look at the relationship between the police and the citizenry in other countries. It is normally not this divisive. We have an escalating situation here where the people are aftraid of the police and the police are afraid of the citizens and something has to change. Acting like human beings and not storm troopers would be a good start.

So... don"t tell us it is standard procedure cause we are telling YOU that it is no longer desired for our police to treat us like that.

Thanks for taking the job as policeman, but don't fool yourself into thinking that it gives the right to abuse that authority without reaction.

[Enrique]

3. no. Discussion of procedure is essential in these cases

a cop has to act, and needs procedures to fall back on. Without procedures, they'd be paralyzed.

I think a lot of people don't understand this because they don't have jobs that require them to act.

[Bonobo]

9. No, my point is that the procedure as it is written, sucks apparently.

[Mortos]

18. I am not trying to be rude

but what do you know about police procedure when it comes to use of force escalation?

[Bonobo]

27. What do YOU know other than what you have been told by procedures

that were established long before you entered the force?

In other words, you believe what you believe because it was in your manual.

I admit I do not know about the "force escalation" procedure, but I have a good command of common sense.

No offense taken.

[lonestarnot]

151. What we observe. And it ain't good!

[sandnsea]

162. The training instigates escalation

I understand your point and agree the kid in FL was resisting arrest.

I think what many people object to are the procedures themselves. You stated you have to arrest your perp - or someone may die!!! That's the problem right there. There is no procedure that says - this person's charges are not severe enough to warrant life-threatening force. There used to be for guns, or there were/are in some jurisdictions. Some places, like Florida, don't seem to ever acknowledge that some crime is so petty as to not warrant force at all. The mentally ill woman who was tasered to death comes to mind. We call the cops for help, not to have people shot down or tasered to death because cops aren't patient enough or trained to do anything else.

Are cops ever trained to just walk away? They should be.

[NotGivingUp]

156. Well said! n/t

[L. Coyote]

2. Can we still muster hysterical hyperbole over IRAQ for god sake?

[Mortos]

5. I think there is enough

justifiable hysterical hyperbole left on Iraq to go around. But the American people are tired of hearing about it. It doesn't affect the average American and it is a 5 year old story in a 5 minute attention span society. So let's talk about an out of control attention hound getting tazed and how all cops are Nazi jackbooted thugs who can't wait to waterboard some innocent bystander.

[L. Coyote]

49. Well put, and okay, but only if it doesn't dtract from Brittany and OJ!

[King Coal]

4. Mortos, I appreciate your post but you failed to respond on the tasering.

Anyone could see that was unjustified.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. I can see that it was justified.

:shrug:

[Bonobo]

10. And I disagree. It wasn't the Incredible Hulk under that pile of police meat.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

14. Yet he was still putting up a fight.

[eppur_se_muova]

146. "Pile of police meat"? That is the safest way to restrain someone.

The more cops involved in holding a man down, the less his chance of getting hurt, besides hurting someone else. The "Hollywood" version with cops going one-on-one is the worst case scenario -- the cop just about has to disable the guy to successfully restrain him, and risks his own safety to an unacceptable degree.

DISCLAIMER: I have not watched the video, so am only commenting on the general concept, not the specifics.

[King Coal]

19. Why was it justified then, Bornaginhooligan?

I think it was unnecessary.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. The man was resisting arrest with violence.

He was a danger to himself, the police, and bystanders. Clear, simple justification for use of a taser. He's probably lucky he didn't get maced either.

[uppityperson]

67. self delete, not worth it

[Threedifferentones]

148. Whatever man the kid does not try to strike or even

to really grapple except to shake them off. He even puts his hands up to indicate he is not trying to attack just to escape, and then he is overwhelmed by numbers. At no point does he give any sign of trying to harm anyone, he doesn't say FUCK YOU ALL MOTHERFUCKERS he pleads not to get shocked. I think the reason many here are so adamant that the "procedure" be changed is that so many law enforcers seem to be too insensitive/stupid to realize when a suspect is escalating a situation to violence as opposed to just being hysterical to cause a scene. Really the kid might be thankful he got "tased", he never could have got so much publicity otherwise.

And I know that cops must treat any threat of violence seriously, and that in the heat of a confrontation everyone's judgment changes, but that guy was just being an ass to make a point and he was totally overwhelmed. There was no threat of violence in that video except when the cop pulled out the taser, and that is wrong.

[6000eliot]

24. Are you kidding?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. Nope.

[backscatter712]

8. Damn straight.

It was six cops versus an unarmed punk-ass kid. Really, is restraining the twerp really that hard?

They don't need the electric torture device.

[Mortos]

16. I did address it in my OP

He was warned repeatedly to stop resisting. He did not and, in fact, escalated his resistance. The tazer is a tool that allows officers, believe it or not, to use less harmful force than in the past. Without a taser, officers are taught to use "pain compliance" techniques on nerve bundles and "strikes" to large muscle groups (i.e. legs, arms). Pepper spray is also used in these situations but is very detrimental to officers and bystanders in an enclosed area. I saw another video in which the angle shows the female officer taze the suspect for about 2 seconds on his back. 2 seconds, by the way, is the minimum amount of time any officer trained to use a tazer has to be exposed to it themselves.

Tasers have prevented many injuries and death to suspects since their introduction. I know it is a hotbutton topic and, like all tools, it has the potential for abuse but, used properly, it saves lives...both officers and suspects.

Here is an idea for anyone who may find themselves in this situation. When told to leave by an officer...do it. If you want to be arrested for a cause...do it passively. Advise the officer he or she is going to have to arrest you and you will not resist. Then sit or lie down with your arms to your side. If you are told you are going to be tazed unless you comply...do it. You can always sue the officer later for whatever violation of your rights you feel may have occurred. There are plenty of lawyers who will take your case for free.

[baby_mouse]

21. Mortos, what is your position on the recorded taser fatalities?

I can only assume you think they don't count for some reason, in your assessment of the use of the taser as less harmful.

[Mortos]

29. I have actually looked at some of the figures

and have some indirect experience with one such case. The majority of cases I have seen involved suspects that had other mitigating factors contributory to their deaths (i.e. drug or alcohol intoxication or pre-existing medical conditions). I am by no means an expert on this topic but I think many of the deaths attributed to tasers have not been proven and have in fact been disproved by subsequent post mortem exams.

But I am certainly willing to look at any data you may have with an open mind.

[baby_mouse]

125. ....

... I'm sure your answer doesn't seem unreasonable on the face of it to *you*, but surely even if there's a question of the possibility of a fatal consequence the technique should be abandoned in favour of other, less dangerous compliance techniques, particularly given, as you state, that some potential prisoners may have pre-existing medical conditions of which the arresting officer may not be aware?

The mitigating factors you mention do not, in fact, as far as I can make sense of the issue, help your position. You appear to be saying that it's okay to take the risk of killing unarmed (I am specifically addressing the issue of *unarmed* suspects, the armed suspect is obviously a different case) offending people with pre-existing medical conditions, or if they're drunk even if apprehending them can be achieved through other means that will not risk their lives.

Given the long history of the relatively successful use of non-fatal apprehension techniques *before* the introduction of the taser as a standard police tool, this does not seem to *me* to be tremendously sensible approach.

I do NOT understand why you think the taser deaths related to alcohol intoxication or medical problems are some sort of special case. It is precisely this sort of case that leads me to oppose the use of the taser.

[King Coal]

25. Sorry, but it looked more like punishment than a tool for restraining him.

I agree that he should not have resisted, but he did not need to be tasered. But I understand your point, I just don't agree.

[Bonobo]

31. So it is okay by you to use it as a compliance tool, not self-defense?

[Bluebear]

7. You are mixing the Florida student with 128 cops who have died this year.

I want to respond to your post but I can't weed out the marriage of those two things. Do you claim that the student was potentially dangerous enough to kill those policemen? Why bring up the odmp.org site whilst discussing the student?


Of course we honor those who died in the line of duty, but please don't piggyback it onto this particular incident!

[Mortos]

22. I bring it up because

54 of those officers were killed by gunfire. Many of those were, statistically speaking, probably killed with their own weapon while trying to arrest someone. Cops don't know if they person they are attempting to arrest is unstable or violent enough to get their weapon and kill them with it. This 21 year old 6' + tall angry male definately displayed that potential.

Every arrest, especially those involving resisting susupects, has the potential to escalate into a homocide.

Every suspect under arrest has to be considered a threat to the officer by that officer and treated as such.

It is not a straw man or a distraction. It is what officers have to consider every single time they come in contact with someone.

[Bluebear]

26. What was he being arrested for? Being at the mike 42 seconds over his time limit?

They lead him off while Kerry is saying "I will answer his question", and now he is a suspect? Of what?

[Mortos]

36. Disturbing the peace, refusing to comply with the lawful command of an officer

creating a disturbance...any number of misdeamenors or, being on a college campus, campus rules or bylaws which can be more draconian than civilian laws. The cops didn't go in there and start punching him, they attempted to escort him peacefully from the premises. He chose to resist, they didn't make him do that.

[Bonobo]

39. Why is it a lawful order for a policeman to have told him to leave the microphone?

Who determines it is lawful? Why is it a lawful order?

It is my understanding that if they wanted to remove him, they need to arrest him. Otherwise he can refuse.

Police have the power to arrest. Failing that, well...

[Mortos]

63. state statutes, city ordinances, campus regulations

cops don't create the rules they just enforce them. Your questions are somewhat naive. City councils and legislatures determine what the rules of society and then courts determine what is lawful. Officers enforce those laws/ordinances/statutes/rules. But the majority of them would like to avoid arrest if at all possible (this reduces the thing cops fear most...paperwork). I am sure all involved would have preferred the student would have chosen to leave on his own accord after making his politically angry charges against Senator Kerry, a tactic which they tried to encourage but the irrational student refused to do.

[Bonobo]

66. Yeah, I am naive. That is why I am talking and listening. OK?

But I have a question.

When the police STARTED to take him from the mike, had he committed a crime at that point?

Do the police have a right to physically remove him WITHOUT arresting him?

That is my question for the time being.

Thank you for continuing the dialog. I am not ALWAYS against cops.

[Mortos]

78. At the time the officers asked him to leave

they are representatives of the campus and city law enforcement community and apparently believed this person was creating a disturbance or violating university rules to the point that their request that he leave was justified. When they attempted to make him leave they initiated it by giving him a lawful command to leave the podium. He refused.

Here is a brief description of use of force and force continuum as practiced by most law enforcement agencies from lowest to highest.

Mere presence of police officer

The student was aware of the officers presence as some interraction had preceded the point at which he came to the microphone. I am reasonably sure he had been warned not to create a disturbance prior to the taped portion we saw.

Voice commands

The officers asked him to leave...he didn't

Hands on -

This can be as simple as taking someone's arm and guiding them where you want them to go. The female officer attempted this

Restraining holds -

The male officer stepped in and attempted to put the man's hands behind his back and escort him out, the female officer attempted the same. The young man begins to jump up and down and flail his arms and pulls violently away from the officers. The other officer then comes in and simply picks up the man and begins to carry him out of the auditorium. The young man then pulls away again and falls to the ground where he actively and forcefully resists the officers attempts to handcuff him. It is almost impossible for one, two or even three officers to handcuff someone who is actively resisting and who has reasonable strength to comply and put their arms behind their back. When you get six officers trying to do the same thing, it just creates chaos.

Pain Compliance, strikes, taser and pepper spray -

Depending on the departmental guidelines the above techniques can be deployed next to subdue a resisting suspect. I have been sprayed with pepper spray and experienced several pain compliance techniques and I would, frankly, rather be tasered for 2 seconds than sprayed or wrist locked.
The suspect was repeatedly ordered to comply and was warned that a taser was about to be used and he still resisted.

These officers followed policy to a T and did nothing wrong and nothing not initiated and escalated by the man resisting.

[TX-RAT]

42. Do you claim that the student was potentially dangerous enough to kill those policemen?

The potential for an officer to get hurt, injured or killed is always there. The only time i was ever injured happened during a domestic dispute call. The husband had just beat the hell out of his wife, and i was taking him into custody after a brief scuffle. Just as i was putting the cuffs on, she came out of the kitchen and stuck a 4 inch paring knife into the left side of my ribcage, piercing my left lung. The potential is always there.

[StrongBad]

11. You make very good points

However in general I think it's healthy to have some skepticism towards authority figures. That certainly doesn't imply that one should disrespect said figures continuously but it's important to not see things from just one perspective.

I think it simply comes down to that people are people - in each profession, race, creed, gender, orientation, etc. - there are good guys and bad guys aplenty.

[DemGa]

12. It's funnny when people are charged at and physically grabbed;

then the police cry about an "escalation" they may have caused. People should not be treated this way; especially people who are expressing their opinion--even assholes who cut in lines.

It is not common for people to be physically grabbed in public and it causes a natural defensive response. Then comes the "escalation" and the tazing, shootings, etc., etc.

Perhaps the police should be taught to keep their hands off people just a little while longer, and try being a "peace officer."

Since this won't happen, I advocate filming/recording ALL police/citizen interactions. The majority of the time, police are good and helpful. But too many abuses have continued for far too long.

[NotGivingUp]

157. Exactly. The police themselves escalated the situation.

Filming police actions is one of the best things that have come along.

[presspeal]

13. It is indeed a thin line,

but there are a few items it never hurts to remember.
1-The vast Marjory of Americans are law bidding. They have a overwhelming respect for the police that service(why do you think cops continue to be popular? Forgive me but you make it sound like the police stand alone against the evil that surrounds us, not true and a dangerous way to view things.
2-These videos that upset you so also service a purpose. Their a release of tension for a slice of the population that feels harassed by the police(real or not that feeling exist). Their help insure that arrest are mostly carried out with minimum force. Let's face it-some times too much force is use.
3-Cops can have "jaded eyes" too.:think:

[Mortos]

33. I agree with every statement you just made

Police, like every authority figure should be scrutinized and held accountable (by authority figure, of course, I exclude the current administration who has show absolute disdaind for accountability and scrutiny). I think that is a good positive reinforcement to law officers. No one wants to lose their job or their finances for fucking up. All I am asking is to drop the pre-conceived notion that all cops are right wing jack booted nazis out to deprive the average citizen of their life and liberty.

[rjones2818]

15. We honor those who died doing their jobs...

not those who act like brownshirts.

[earthside]

17. Cops and Soldiers can do no wrong.

And if they do ... well, next time you're in trouble call a hippie ... right.

I am personally tired of the military and paramilitary hero worship going on in this country right now.

DU is, therefore, a refreshing change from the main stream culture's "cops and soldiers can do no wrong" attitude.

[Mortos]

44. Can you point to any statement I have made

which states soldiers or officers can do no wrong? More useless hyperbole.

[american_typeculture]

75. They can do no wrong when the courts ceaselessly side with them.

and they(the cops) have an unspoken rule of watching each others backs and not turning each other in for malfeasance. Police organizations are an elitist corp who are in fact above the law.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

20. Wheee!

This ought to be good...

did you know that it's national talk like a pirate day?

:popcorn:

[Moochy]

147. Yarrrrrrrrrrrr rrr?

(R)

[Marrah_G]

30. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU

:applause:
:applause:
:applause:
:applause:
:applause:
:applause:

[bemildred]

32. So cops don't like being watched all the time?

Is an accusatory and punitive social environment demoralizing?
Why, exactly, should you be treated any better than the rest of us?

[Mortos]

46. Again

You are attributing a statement to me I did not and would not make. In fact I argued the opposite.

[bemildred]

100. "Every time someone posts a video of police arresting someone here"

I don't know anything about you personally, and I know there are many good cops (as well as many not so good cops). Nevertheless, this is supposed to be a free country. If there are a lot of people who are not happy with how the police behave, that ought to be paid attention to, not dismissed as a bunch of grumbling malcontents.

[ret5hd]

34. How many crooked/abusive officers have you turned in...

or testifed against?

[Bonobo]

35. Good question! I would LOVE to hear an honest answer.

[ret5hd]

47. I think we ALL know the answer...i just want him/her to admit it.

Silence is complicity.

[Mortos]

48. In the bried time I worked on the streets

I turned in one officer for acting outside the law...He was the only one who did something in my presence that infuriated me and I told him about it and then told the chief. I would do the same to anyone regardless of their job that I saw do something illegal.

I deal with disgruntled citizens everyday and refer them to the proper authorities to fascilitate their complaints against officers.

[ret5hd]

56. What was the nature of this one officers offence?

[Mortos]

119. He was actually driving wrecklessly in his POV and

trying to pick up girls while on the job. He was also dumb as a rock and not very good at the job. He was gone very quickly. I told him if I ever saw him drive that way again around me, I would write him a ticket for it. It was a minor thing in the grand scheme of things but it was stupid, unproffessional and reflected poorly on the department and me.

Is that answer satisfactory?

[ret5hd]

149. Well, i can only say that it is satisfactory in the sense that...

you were there and i wasn't.

But i will say that i can spot more illegal activity (especially of the sort you describe) in ONE DAY than you did in your entire (albeit brief) career! I can only conclude that your career was so short because of a complete lack of the basic observational skills that are so necessary to competent policework.

[ret5hd]

106. Paging Mortos!

[The Vinyl Ripper]

50. I'm willing to bet you won't get an answer to that question.

People hate answering the hard questions..

[Bonobo]

37. BTW, SOME cops are GREAT amd got into it for ALL the right reasons.

Some did not. They got in for all the WRONG reasons.

Are you prepared to admit that?

[TX-RAT]

38. Thank you for your post.

But I'm afraid it will be wasted here. Not much appreciation of law enforcement on DU.

Thanks again!

from a retired Texas Peace Officer

[greatauntoftriplets]

40. Thanks for a well-reasoned post on this issue...

from someone who knows.

Kicked and recommended.

[SteppingRazor]

41. Like the fuzzy-headed liberal I am, I take a nuanced view of this.

I don't think you can offer a blanket statement on police either way. Not all police are protectors of the public with the best interests of the citizenry at heart. Not all police are vindictive bullies. My own experience with police has been less than ideal. (Google "Miami model" sometime -- I was there. It sucked.) But I also have relatives who are on several police forces around the country, even one uncle who eventually became commissioner of a police force and went on to run his state's prison system. All of these family members are good men. My uncle has a vastly different world view than me, but he's a great guy, has raised three wildly successful boys (all men themselves now, one of them a military doctor who has served in Iraq), and could hardly be disparaged as some sort of brownshirt.

So, I guess that's what I have to say about that. Some cops are good people. Some cops are bastards. Sort of like just about every other group of people on the planet.

[OzarkDem]

45. Agree

Maybe the law enforcement profession needs to look inward and figure out how to weed out bad police and police practices to save their reputation.

[Mortos]

55. That is all I am asking for

is to look at each case by it's merits and not enter with preconceived notions that all cops are this or that. I have met some cops who are scary sociopaths and others who are salt of the earth types. The same with doctors, preachers and plumbers.

There is a lot of "fuck the police" mentality which appears on this site on a regular basis and it is very off-putting for those of us involved in law enforcement who, otherwise, agree with the political sentiment expressed here.

[SteppingRazor]

57. Sure, I think the problem comes in here because...

when you meet a scary sociopathic plumber, there's less of a chance of getting killed or maimed than when you meet a scary sociopathic cop ;)


Law enforcement officers are the only government agents empowered to take away the life and/or liberty of an American citizen, and regardless of the individual cop's mental state, that's a kind of unsettling thing to think about.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

58. The "fuck the police" mentality..

Comes because the great majority of cops are authoritarians.

The drug war in particular has created a great deal of hostility to police.

America has the highest incarceration rate in the world and cops are continually pushing to make more stuff illegal and lock up more people..

On the State Patrol cars in my state they have a great big red circle with a line through it over a pot plant.

Everyone knows that pot is far less harmful than alcohol and yet the State Patrol strongly supports the drug war.

It's really that simple..

[Robb]

109. Civics class

Cops don't make laws.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

138. Duh...

But police have a great deal of influence in which laws are written and their official organizations consistently lobby for more laws and harsher penalties.

I can give sources if you need them.

[Missy Vixen]

116. Thanks, Mortos

My husband is a long-time volunteer with a local police department. As a result, we probably know over a hundred active police officers. My great-uncle is a cop. My FIL is a former state trooper who found himself out of a job due to his, shall we say, issues. Whether or not posters here want to admit it, police departments weed out the bad apples among them.

>There is a lot of "fuck the police" mentality which appears on this site on a regular basis and it is very off-putting for those of us involved in law enforcement who, otherwise, agree with the political sentiment expressed here.<

I'm frankly embarrassed by the behavior of a subset of posters here who can't wait to condemn every police response in this country. Perhaps, if they are so convinced that they could do better, they should make their way to the local police department and sign up. I'm sure they'll know the most politically correct response when they're staring down the barrel of a gun and have less than ten seconds to decide what their response is going to be, for instance.

Julie

[Trillo]

43. Pain Compliance

You wrote above that if procedures are not followed, someone will die. What a nice strawman or lie. Back in the 80s police departments were reported to be adopting 'pain compliance' measures to deal with peaceful protesters who were no threat and were, say, sitting down in protest and refusing to move.

Administering "Pain" without a specific court order lacks due process and may be an, admittedly mild, form of 'cruel and unusual' punishment, so it quite simply is Guilt until Innocence proven.

So many of these cases are reported to be dismissed before trial, it's clear the Assumption of Guilt is routine, and the intent is to deny Judicial Branch supervised due process and trial to determine guilt or innocence. It's easy enough for four officers to pick any peaceful protester up and place them elsewhere, including the paddy wagon.

It's very easy, too easy, for the 'hood's lawyers, and for politicized prosecutors, to rubber stamp the trashing of the Bill of Rights, for the 'convenience' of the 'hood (as in Fraternal Brotherhood).

[Bonobo]

51. How is administering pain not torture? What is the difference?

I really don't see the difference morally.

[Mortos]

80. What would you have an officer do

to someone who is resisting? How about if that person was high on meth and had just beat the crap out of an old lady for her social security check?

Would you have him let the person go if they refused polite requests to come along with the officer?

Seriously, how would you handle it or propose officers in the field handle a pissed off felon who didn't want to go to jail?

[Bonobo]

81. That is no answer to my question.

[Mortos]

120. It is an answer

Some criminals don't want to be arrested and will fight, sometimes to the death, to keep it from happening.

Pain compliance is a neccessary evil and it is not equivalent to torture. A wrist lock or nerve pressure to make someone comply and stop resisting is completely different than torture. It is not even in the same ballpark.

Could pain compliance techniques be used to torture, yes. But so can car batteries and pliers if they are used in a way in which they were not designed.

Now you answer my question. What would you do or have officers do to arrest someone who doesn't want to be arrested?

Let them go?

[Bonobo]

121. I would do a wrist/arm lock or nerve pressure and lift them bodily while

handcuffed if necessary.

If they ACTUALLY fought, they would be beaten with a long stick.

RESISTANCE of the type we are all talking about it NOT a real threat even though you like to call it that.

[DrunkenMaster]

52. just another idiotic post

trying to control speech here at DU. No wonder you dig cops.

[Enrique]

59. that is uncalled for

I wonder exactly what it is that makes you feel entitled to respond so rudely?

[DrunkenMaster]

60. its perfectly called for

stop telling people what they can and can't say, how they can and can't react. YOU DON'T CONTROL OTHER PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS, EMOTIONS, VALUE SYSTEMS OR LANGUAGE.

Damn right I'm rude about it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

94. Ok

People who whine about the cops all the time are usually assholes trying to get away with shit, or only WISH they could get attention from the cops so they can brag about what a political prisoner they were.

Like that hyperbole? Wanna control that thought?

[Moochy]

145. People who generalize

are jerks.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

153. Gee, maybe you get one of the points of the thread now

But probably not.....

[Moochy]

61. Truth hurts

[Enrique]

69. so does someone responding to one's well-thought-out post with a cheap thoughtless insult

a drive-by is hardly "truth"

[DrunkenMaster]

83. bullshit is bullshit

and authoritarianism still sucks.

[LanternWaste]

86. Do anti-authoritarians stop at red lights?

Do anti-authoritarians stop at red lights?


Just curious and it seems relevant...

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

98. Yo, stop questioning my civil laws......

Not no one gonna prevent me from slammin' the po-pos 'cuz they looked at me funny while I was rolling by doing 30 in a 25 in my banging Dodge Neon....

I swear, I just think of that opening scene from "Super Troopers" where the white college kid talks about "pulling out his nine and popping a cap in that pig's ass" when I read these threads.

[CRF450]

130. Classic!

Thats a good movie BTW.

[LanternWaste]

85. Stating an opinion is "speech control"?

Stating an opinion is "speech control"?

It's like your own little black and white melodrama out there...

:eyes:

[HughBeaumont]

53. Acting professionally?

This was in Rhode Island in August. Wow, takes two 250 lb + officers to strong-arm and knee-hold a woman with a broken leg. That's reasonable. He's so stressed and the situation's so out of control, he even takes the time to pepper spray a would-be photographer. Hmmmmmm . . .

And in the case of the Sept 15th march, the freeper assaulted a woman and threw a camera to the ground. Where was HIS arrest?

Five freepers jumped a Gold Star dad after one of them ripped his son's picture off of his tribute, amidst several witnesses. Where were THEIR arrests?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1845279

[Trillo]

74. That particular knee injury will cause Pain until her death.

It's interesting to note that the woman holding the camera and presumably snapping a picture is turning her head away, while the cop appears to be pointing a container of mace or pepper spray in her direction.

Yeah, that sunglassed cop's in danger alright, in danger of getting his picture taken ... his POV: no evidence of police brutality allowed!

[fenriswolf]

54. i agree

the use of force was regretable but you need to look at it from an outside point of view instead of the hyperinflated politicized view we have, police brutality is a highly visable field of news but their is a differance between police brutality and police force. They decided to walk him out, I believe they would have walked him out of the forum and then kicked him out for being an instigator. Instead this twirp acts like the poster stated above. If I am confronted by six big burly police officers who accuse me of doing something wrong and already have their hands on me, well i'm going limp, not because im a coward or because im a sheeple but because I know I'm not going to win this fight. The kid did not deserve the tasing for being a twirp but through his OWN actions earned the small tasing that he got

[WildEyedLiberal]

62. THANK YOU - the sandbox anarchist "fuck the pigs" mentality here sickens me

"Most arrests don't rise to the level of fascist nazi pigs beating down an innocent saint who was minding their own business and the continued use of this type of hyperbole is dishonest, inflammatory and hurtful to those who work in this field."

Agree 100%. There are people here who apparently think the Constitution guarantees you the "right" to be violent and physically disruptive. That's not "freedom of speech" - it's dangerous.

[iamthebandfanman]

64. hell most of the time its no law enforcements fault

they are just following the book....

its the people who WROTE that book and who have made these laws who need to be held accountable.

FUCK the administration. thats what i say.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

70. The USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world..

Tell me the US is not a police state..

[Zodiak]

65. I was hit for no reason by a cop

for doing nothing but changing a tire in a parking lot at night. I didn't "move fast enough" when he told me to get against my car and it took weeks for the bruise to go away. My trust of the police nevr came back. By the way, I was charged with nothing because I did nothing, but the two cops had a great time forcing me to do tasks for them in this parking lot under threat of more hits. It was humiliating.

A few years later, my vehicle was searched without my consent and my stuff was thrown into a bar ditch. Never charged with anything, of course, and he was pissed he didn't find anything.

A friend of mine had nis neck broken after he was arrested. He was tossed into a jail cell 8 hours after he was arrested and didn't receive any medical treatment until morning. I am surprised he lived. The last thing he remembered was getting hit by a mag-lite when he was put in the back seat. He is black, of course.

So forgive me if I have an automatic distrust of cops. Most of my experiences have not been good and every time these incidents come up, I relive all of this shit over again. Am I biased? You bet your ass...experience can do that to a person.

The funny thing is, as an Eagle Scout and the son of a military man, I was raised to have trust for the uniform. That all went out the door with one strike to my upper arm for no reason. Of course, when I complained, nothing was done. Cops stick up for each other.

[Bonobo]

71. Splurge on an expensive car and get a haircut. That is what I did.

Now I am in disguise and guess what? No problems with the police anymore! Go figure!

Too bad for those "dark complexioned" people who cannot cover up!

[Zodiak]

84. I must admit....I was in college, had long hair (late 80's)

and was driving an old clunker (1974 Chevy Impala).

[goodgd_yall]

144. That's another whole issue---discrimination

It seems every time I've seen a car pulled over on HWY 101 (in California) the car happened to be inhabited by Mexicans.

Long hair, 2 women together who look like more than "just friends," latinos, blacks, anyone who looks like "the other" is more apt to get unwanted police attention.

Having said that, when I have been pulled over by a cop, all but one time was a decent experience. The one time it wasn't, the cop had seen my girlfriend and I walking together before we got in my car. His attitude was so shitty we both figured he nailed us because we were gay.

[TX-RAT]

73. So forgive me if I have an automatic distrust of cops.

So forgive me if i have an automatic distrust of your post. But i've been wrong before.

[Zodiak]

88. Yup, I'm a big, fat liar

And since you are an ex-cop (from Texas, no less), we should automatically assume you have no dog in this race?

I tell my stories as they happened. If you can demonstrate I am a liar, then do so. Until then, you are simply attacking the messenger. Is the message unpleasant for you? Too bad because it is the truth.

I've got more stories, you know. One where a black homeless man was tazed at least six times in a hotel lobby for "acting erratically". Traumatized a friend of mine who was working in the hotel lobby at the time. She had to sign a waiver stating that she would never reveal what she saw because it would damagae the Hotel's reputation. That was Wichita Falls, 2003.

The tire incident was Galveston. 1989

The search by the bar ditch was Archer City. 1996

The black man with the broken neck was also Wichita Falls. 1997

But I'm just a big liar making these stories up to undermine the cops because.....well, just because....

[Ignis]

124. "It's just a few bad apples."

Isn't that the standard authoritarian response to "misconduct" and "hijinx" by peace officers? (Of course, that's only if you can get an authoritarian to agree that any peace officer would ever abuse his authority.)

And people wonder how we got to a point as a nation where Abu Ghraib is allowed to happen....

:banghead:

[TX-RAT]

161. I'll play

Considering your history with law enforcement, exactly how many reports have you filed? they do still exist if in fact the story is true and you did file.

[napi21]

68. I agree, most police officers do their job professionally, and when

it isn't a dangerous job, it's usually a very nasty one. Hoever, in this case in Fl, I think the police action was wrong from the very beginning. I was listening to the radio late last night and a caller was talking about the peaceful protests that happened all the time, and hecklers at political events was the norm. Candidates all know, or should know, how to defuse things like this. I think Kerry had things under control...he was going to answer the guys questions. Why did the police intrfere at all???? I blame it on what Shrub has done for so many years! He and HIS goons have created the belief that NO ONE can disagree. NO ONE can protest! They've been doing this for sooo long, all police everywhere accept "no dissent" as the standard, and THAT'S wrong!

[american_typeculture]

72. Your post is biased.

You make that apparent in your second paragraph. I find it unprofessional for you to be making such claims and to lecture people how they should "view' police organizations. Then you use the scare tactic of a world "spiraling into chaos". Is it really appropriate for you to be making such a post? Seems like conflict of interest to me.

[ThomCat]

76. Funny, your post reads like hyperbole.

blah blah blah, cops are heroes who risk their lives, they're wonderful saints, they deserve or respect.

If they were truly earning our respect they would have it. If they were truly serving the public good the public would know it. The reason police departments are increasingly earning reputations as breeding grounds for thugs is because they are.

We should look the other way when the police violate people's civil rights. We should be outraged when police infiltrate groups of peace activists, or instigate violence to give themselves an excuse for unlawful arrests, or use unnecessary force just because they feel like it. We should be outraged when police treat people in general as if "everyone is guilty of something, so I'm only giving them what they deserve." We should be outraged when police are unresponsive to the needs of the communities and the people they are supposed to serve.

When police earn respect they receive it. When they don't earn it, they don't get it. It's that simple. And no amount of whining about how abused and misunderstood the police are is going to change the fact that they have arbitraty authority and all too often choose to use it in abusive ways simply because they can.

Even worse, people like you, and posts like yours help create the insulation they need to get away with their attrocities because you'll defend them, overlook what they do, and play along with the game.

[american_typeculture]

93. Great post Thomcat.

Insighful and real.

:applause::applause::applause:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

95. Amen.

:thumbsup:

[Greyhound]

77. I'd have to say that your position is incomplete.

"The majority of police officers do their job professionally", almost true. The majority of police officers do most of their job professionally, they just forget that it is also part of their job to point out when their "brothers" are out of line. Abuse of suspects, false testimony (testilying), etc. is not uncommon, but fellow officers testifying against them is. What is the difference between the Mafia's "code of silence" and this behavior on the part of local LEOs?

In all the places I've lived there is an us vs. them mentality that pervades the police force. There is an attitude that they are separate from the communities they are supposed to serve and they are viewed as the enemy. I saw this evolve as a kid growing up in Denver and, in that case, it happened during the 80's.

During that time, there was a deliberate escalation carried out. Where once minor infractions committed by kids would be met with a stern lecture and a call to the parents, the policy was changed to arrest and "throwing the book at them". Well surprise, surprise, escalation breeds escalation, which has brought us to the point where we see 5 year olds handcuffed and arrested, police forces are militarized, and rudeness is countered with violence.

There is no good result from this path.

[Flabbergasted]

96. Good Points Grey. You know I know alot of cops in Portland.

I've called the police perhaps 50 times in the last 9 years. I've had nothing but good encounters. There are several that are really good guys.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

79. Awesome OP Mortos! Hear Hear!

:applause:

[PDenton]

82. I just wish there were more cops sometimes

The crime rate in the Orlando area is going nuts. We need more cops, not less. Especially things like theft and vandalism are getting out of control. Imagine living in a nice neighborhood and waking up one morning to find out your car's tires had all been knifed through the sidewalls. That happened to every single car in our neighborhood parked on the street. It was some scumbag gang, and I don't know if they actually caught them, I doubt it. And we live in a NICE neighborhood. Every day practically you can hear about a murder or grand-theft-auto happening within only about 6 miles of your house.

The crime rate is going up, up, up again. So just remember that before we make blanket attacks on all police.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

87. Does your department have a vice squad?

How about a drug squad?

Are they constantly setting speed traps?

[PDenton]

92. I don't know about vice squads

... but they need to set more speed traps. Some of us don't like speeding. I live in Orlando, home of some of the worst drivers in the world. There is never a cop enforcing traffic laws when you need them, that would be my only complaint with the police.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

101. They never set speed traps where you really need them..

They alway set speed traps where they will catch the most speeders, which is usually where it's safest to go fast, on the highway.

Where speed is truly dangerous is in subdivisions and back roads.

And I'll match Atlanta for Orlando for bad drivers any time.. :D

[PDenton]

110. yes, Atlanta is worse

Mostly I see speeding problems on this one street outside our neighborhood, once in a while I do see a cop on a motorbike setting up a speed trap on the road but it is mostly catching people comming into the neighborhood, where it isn't a real problem.

Unfortunately Orlando's population is growing and the road network can't keep up. At peak hours the roads are not exactly congested but you do have to be careful.

I ride a motorcycle so I notice the bad drivers alot more. It is even worse in downtown Orlando (I live out in a town/suburb only about 12 miles from downtown). The drivers are either mentally deficient or ultra aggressive down there and have no problems pulling out in front of you, in fact that's the only place I've had to do a real panic brake and lock the rear wheel. Suffice it to say, I avoid downtown and try and avoid peak hours. Atlanta must be a big giant traffic nightmare?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

152. Big giant traffic nightmare?

You are a master of understatement. :D

We have a perimeter highway I-285, people seem to think that is the speed limit.

I drive fast and aggressive but I can't keep up with some of these fools..

[MadHound]

89. Spoken like one who has never been dicked over, or worked over, by the police

Sorry pal, but your propaganda doesn't fly with a lot of people because their own experience shows otherwise. I've been hassled and threatened by the police on more than one occasion for the simple act of walking down the street with long hair. I've been pulled over by cops while riding my bike on the flimsy excuse of "you're new in the neighborhood"(though I had lived in the neighborhood for over two years). Yet when I call the police for an emergency it takes forever to respond, not because it was a busy time, but because of the neighborhood where I lived and the attitude of letting "those people" take care of their own shit. My experiences have been relatively minor compared to others. I've been fortunate, I haven't been beaten or run in on trumped up charges like so many others I know.

Your own post betrays the mindset of police these days. No longer do they consider themselves to be public servants, but instead think of themselves as guards at an outdoor insane asylum. And your claim that most cops are good people is being disproven on a daily basis. Last year we had one cop busted for murdering his gay lover, one for stalking his ex (using police dept. equipment) and one busted for assaulting a person at a bar. And this is in a sleepy small Midwest college town. Hell, you want to see ugly, go to LA and watch Gate's goons in action on a day by day, hour by hour basis.

If you want for people to respect the police, then the police need to respect the people.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

90. "And your claim that most cops are good people is being disproven on a daily basis"

Really? What if someone said that about a minority because a growing amount of crimes reported in the media happened to committed by them?

Again, the hyperbole and propaganda is mind-numbing.

[MadHound]

91. Oh please stop trying to erect a strawman to hide the facts

A weak attempt at a weak defense. There are media reports around the country, on almost a daily basis of cops behaving badly. All you have to do is go search Google. Then there are the millions of instances of police overstepping their power that go unreported because at this point many people think "why bother" since nothing will be done anyway.

I understand that you're trying to defend the indefensible, but surely you can come up with something better than that.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

104. There are reports of all sorts of people acting like shit heels every day

Are you ready to come on here and systematically list "most people" in said group as being bad because there are reports from all over the country?

The vast majority of police officers in this country never have a word written about them in the newspaper, because pulling over speeders and giving them tickets makes for boring copy. But your premise is that they are mostly "not good people".

I love how the media becomes one's source of empirical proof when it's convenient for their thesis.

[MadHound]

133. I love how people make assumptions about posters on an anonymous chat board

Like the assumption that my sole source of information is the media. It isn't, in fact a lot of information that I've presented comes from your brother officers, members of my family who've been in the service for years and decades, captains, assistant police chiefs, and police chiefs. I get to hear what they say, and frankly they're appalled at how officers today treat the public, appalled at how the attitude of police have changed during their time on the force. How it has gone from a few bad apples to many, if not most of the members on any given police force. It isn't the media who's saying this, it isn't the public moaning and groaning, it is your brother officers who are appalled at the state of their profession.

Perhaps you should listen, after all constructive criticism can be a good thing.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

99. Ethnicity = innate, cop = job.

See the difference?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

107. It doesn't make the statement any less stupid and narrow minded

But ok......so it's like people who think all people working in customer service jobs in stores and restaurants are morons and idiots for screwing up sales/orders. If you read about people complaining about bad experiences they have in those places, you could come back and say the proof shows that "most sales clerks are not smart people".

[Starbucks Anarchist]

111. It's more complicated than that.

Casting aspersions on a profession because of a few bad apples may be unwise, but it does no real harm to those workers because they always have the option to choose a different job.

Also, in this particular case, a police officer is supposed to serve the community and is funded by that same community as well, not to mention the inherent authority a cop possesses over most people.

And despite an occasional screw-up, customer service workers have no power to detain, assault or kill you, particularly under the aegis of the government.

[ThomCat]

115. Agreed. And in addition

all those supposed good cops participating in covering up and protecting the bad cops. That makes them complicit.

When was the last time you have ever seen cops identify and push out the bad ones? It never happens. There is a reason you hear the term "blue wall of silence" so often. There is an insular culture among cops that they back each other up. In the absolute worst situations cops will simply say and do nothing. So the guilty cops are left free to get away with their abuse. Nobody stops them.

In addition, all those supposed good cops also use their collective power to oppose civilian review boards. They neuter every attempt to install some real oversight.

That makes the so called good cops partially responsible for all the abuses they allow the bad cops to get away with.

[hfojvt]

131. it's more complicated than that

recently there was a video on the KC news of a cop beating on somebody who was hand-cuffed and on the ground. This cop was fired after twenty some years and lost his pension and so on. Was he a bad cop? Maybe. But in this particular instance, the officer was at the end of a high speed chase in which the pick-up truck finally crashed to a halt. Then he discovers an infant in the truck in a car seat. My feeling is that the guy kinda deserved a few kicks and punches. The officer acted pretty much like a normal human being, especially one with his adrenaline charged up by a high speed chase.

A cop is somebody who does a pretty dangerous job, at least a potentially dangerous job. Even pulling over a speeder can lead to a shoot-out. Law-breakers are contemptuous of and hostile to the police, even to the good police. Good citizens should not be. Even good cops may not like civilian review, it's like micro-managing, and somebody is second guessing every judgement you make, and the whole process itself is an assault to your integrity and professionalism. It's gotta be very hard for even the best person to always do the right thing, particularly in a potentially explosive situation, and every mistake can lead to lawsuits, termination, maybe even criminal charges. Even the best cops are not perfect and even the worst cops are potentially putting their lives on the line. How often do you goto your job and identify and push out your bad co-workers? Usually, I let my supervisor worry about my co-workers and just concetrate on doing my job. My job description does not, to my knowledge, include 'spying on my co-workers'.

[ThomCat]

132. It's not that complicated

The more power you have over someone else's life and civil rights, and the more authority you can potentially abuse the more you should expect to be watched and monitored. The fact that cops are not watched and monitored is the problem.

They should be held accountable in direct proportion to the potential for abuse.

If you are the one on-site who sees that abuse, then you can't abdicate to management that isn't there and doesn't know what's going on. That's a cop-out (no pun intended).

[NotGivingUp]

160. Good post! n/t

[yodermon]

97. "Stand up your you'll get tazed again"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyvrqcxNIFs

:eyes:

[Katherine Brengle]

102. There's a lot of cop-hatred here.

Thanks for your post, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[Lilith Velkor]

136. Who do you call if you get gang-raped by state troopers?

Do you know the REAL reason why it's so hard to convict a rapist?

Or is it OK because it only happens to "those" women (more often girls)?

[Katherine Brengle]

155. I have no idea why you would say that to me.

The entire system is stacked against rape victims - not just law enforcement officers.

[ThatsMyBarack]

103. K&R for Mortos!

:patriot:

[nini]

105. My dad was a LAPD homicide detective

I agree with most of what you say because I feel a blanket statement on ANY group is wrong. Lumping everyone into one definitive judgment just doesn't make sense.

There are many hard working honest officers who do see shit we can never imagine on a daily basis. The stress of what they do wears on even the best officer. There are some officers who either went into the job for the wrong reasons or have let that stress push them over the line into abusive reactions. Police officers of any stripe need breaks from the BS periodically to keep the ability to react to situations not out of frustration but in the right manner.

My dad was old school - he went into the field for all the right reasons and told a story of a fellow officer who had to be restrained when the daughter of this man had been raped and the suspect brought into the station. Would that happen then or now with ALL officers - doubtful, but I can say they did the right thing and I'm sure there are plenty officers today who would also do that too as the group of men my dad worked with.

One of the saddest and yet proudest days of my life was back in the Rodney King days when my dad sat with tears in his eyes to see how horrible some of the the LAPD had become. He detested Chief Gates with a passion for allowing that mentality to fester. It hurt me to see my dad who was so proud of his police work be so ashamed of the group he was proud of. Yet, I was so proud of him to see him recognize the wrong done and speak out against it. There are plenty of good officers like may dad still doing what is right -we should not ignore that even if the ones that are bad exist.

A blanket accusation saying every cop is a thug is wrong, so it saying they're all angels. When they do wrong they need to be held accountable.

[GETPLANING]

108. Bullshit

The only people more dishonest than the mob are the cops.

[Mortos]

112. Nice well reasoned post

forgive me if I ignore it completely after this response.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

114. You *could* reply to my well reasoned post upthread

But I know you won't..

[Mortos]

118. Which particular comment did you want me to respond too?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

134. That would be post #58 n/t

[ret5hd]

117. And my follow-up question upthread.

[Evergreen Emerald]

113. Thank you Mortos

I agree with you.

[Solon]

122. Cops as individuals may be decent, at least some of them, however, as a group, they are like any...

other mob, just with bigger and better weapons. Look at Seattle in 1999, Miami in 2003, L.A. in 2007, etc.

[Jed Dilligan]

123. And of course the outrage comes out of nowhere

Just mean-spirited liberals looking for a chance to bash, bash, bash the noble and innocent members of a fine profession. It has nothing to do with our own experiences as citizens and protestors and how we have been treated in the past and what we have come to expect from law enforcement.

[Ignis]

129. That's the most insidious part of this argument.

The underlying assumption that we're just "haters"--full of hate for no reason at all--is ridiculous. It's the same sort of crap you hear from right-wingers who moan how all Liberals are full of hate, have hate in their hearts, just hate Shrub for no good reason, etc. It's a belittling, petulant position that reflects a monochromatic view of the world.

Do authoritarians ever, ever, ever look at root causes? :shrug: WARNING: It may lead to dangerous empathy!

[BlooInBloo]

126. Fucking cops.

[treestar]

127. What would DU be without hysterical hyperbole?

Come on, someone has to do it!

Lighten up! We're all concerned about a trend towards fascism and authoritarianism. The real enemies are Chimpy and Cheney and their minions.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

128. Law enforcement is just like any other profession.

Some cops are grossly incompetent; most are mediocre at best. The problem with cops, like doctors, is that your mediocrity and incompetence can kill or severely injure a fellow human being.

[Pastiche423]

135. When the cops stop tasering six year olds,

people having diabetic episodes, elderly people, people w/seizure disorders, people protesting (our 1st Amendment Right), people asking questions and the deaths they have caused by tasering (just a few incidences - there are many, many more), then maybe the "hysterical hyperbole on cops" might lessen.

IMHO, tasers should be outlawed.

But that's only part of it. Others have given their stories. I will give mine.

When the cops take two hours to respond to a 261 and a 245, leaving the victim w/delayed medical care, resulting in paralysis*, then my opinion of said cops is lower than whale shit. In addition, when the evidence of the multiple crimes is stolen from the cop's evidence room, AND the only time the case (which was never solved) was worked, was when the victim had to call them from their recup bed to beg them to do something, I'm more into a fuck the cops attitude.

The above information was given to me by a member of the SFPD. Unfortunately, since he was a lowly patrol cop, he did not have the power to interfere w/the politics of the department.

*The doctors told me, the victim, that they could not touch me, could not even lay a hand on me until the cops arrived. The doctors also told me that if they could have treated me sooner, I very likely would have been able to walk again.

Since that did not happen, I am paralyzed for life.

So, I don't even want to hear, but what if you need the cops? See above.

Moreover, this does not even take into account the cop thugs that come to protests dressed as Darth Vader and beat up on people that are exercising their Constitutional rights to free assembly.

I have zero respect for power hungry, authoratarian cops, which in today's society is the norm.

[Mortos]

139. Would you care to clarify a few of your comments

I am not trying to attack you or anything but parts of your story are not very clear to me.

What is a 261/245?

I have never heard of a doctor denying treatment based on a police officer not being present...ever.

Sounds like you may have grounds for a lawsuit against the doctor. Medical treatment always has higher priority than
arrest or any legal action.

***I looked up a 261 and 245 it appears they might refer to a rape and assault with a deadly weapon. Every department uses different codes so I am not positive this is what you are referring to. I can only speak from my own experience but there are no higher priority calls than those two. In my department those are priority one calls that are required to be dispatched immediately. Again, I have never heard of medical treatment being denied to a victim of any crime because police werent present.

What police department did this? SFPD?

[Pastiche423]

141. Yes, it was the SFPD

You may not have heard of doctors not being able to treat a rape victim before the cops got there, but that is exactly what happened to me at Mt. Zion Hospital in SF. I was left on a gurney in a hallway until they arrived.

Btw, did you read this?

Cops Taser and Kill Woman in Wheelchair

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2998030

Do you approve of their actions?

[The Vinyl Ripper]

140. I'm sorry for your unnessary disability..

I honestly think the majority of cops are good people on the whole.

But there is a large minority who shouldn't be wearing the badge and the good ones cover for them far, far too often..

[Pastiche423]

142. Thank you

I agree that not all cops are bad. The SFPD officer that gave me the info was the husband of a girlfriend. He was very frustrated that he could not help me more.

But because of what happened to me and to all of the protesters that have been hurt by cops, I now trust none of them.

[knitter4democracy]

137. Thank you! You're absolutely right!

Not all cops are bad. Not all cops are evil. Not all cops love to hurt people. Not all cops love to use and abuse power.

I know that some here have had bad experiences with cops, some of them really, really bad. I respect that. I have a hard time, though, with those who just automatically think all cops are bad just because of some stories. Bad cops make better news than the good ones.

Please remember that there are real people on the other side of that keyboard. We have many cops here, cops' spouses and loved ones, and friends here. My own stepbrother is a county sherriff's deputy, one who's gone into a burning car to save a man when he was off-duty. I wouldn't say he's the best guy around (total right-winger), but he puts his life on the line for the general public every day and does that in the safest and best way he can.

[izzybeans]

143. Professionalizing brutality does not excuse it.

[Odin2005]

150. K&R.

Great post. The anarchist wannabe "police are all evil fascist pigs" attitude of many DUers is just moronically over the top and just plain stupid.

[ellisonz]

154. The police are their own worst enemy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LayaGk0TMDc&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fstopthedrugwar%2Eorg%2Fvideos%2Fleap

[Snarkturian Clone]

158. Glad someone finally said it. Thank you. NT

[BlooInBloo]

159. I dunno. Can cops stop shoving nightsticks up black folks' asses?

[sniffa]

163. nah, they're just fucking pigs, is aLL

fiLthy, fat assed pigs.