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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:02 PM
Original message
Why are people not in the streets?
Why people are not writing\ calling their reps?

Why?

I was talking to a kid we helped raise. Kid... not quite the right word. He's 23, about to graduate from college and he's doing fine

He is also pissed about our "wonderful" reps and the "great job" they are doing in Congress

He partly does not understand the procedural reasons why some things are not done

But you know why he is just pissed, but will not do anything substantial, even writing a letter to his congress critter?

He's afraid

He's afraid of his government

He has his life ahead of him... and he's afraid that a letter today may be used against him in the future.

He also has a deep sense of anomie

In other words, mission accomplished

A fearful and compliant population is the ultimate goal of any police\totalitarian state.

And that talk left me cold... and had me wondering... how many folks don't do what they have to do as citizens, a simple letter to your critter, or a letter to the editor, due to ... fear...
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SteppingRazor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. If we were that fearful, I doubt we'd be posting about politics on the Internet...
where our posts will stay in perpetuity and be easily searchable via google.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Funny, he's afraid of even loging to a political board
we are the minority

I lost my fear at the sounds of mosquitoes (bullets)

And I have alredy faced the goons, who were out to make us afraid, and silence us

Didn't work

But how many are like him? Afraid and alone?

And yes DU is a minority

And you know what? I assume everything I post, everything I send over email, all my phone calls and even my letters are read by somebody....

And I keep doing it.

But we are the minority, we choose to live free. And if the worst case comes, there will be consequences
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #4
21. i know that feeling, cause its easy to find people
just based off their post... but

hey, i gave up worrying about it after i joined the youth communist league when i was 15. im pretty sure ive had a folder for a while now, so i feel free to post away ;)
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #4
43. I don't worry about "them" reading my posts
I am already sure (channeling Arlo Guthrie) that somewhere in Washington DC, there is a folder on me. The step-father is a naturalized citizen from that awful country, Iran; and I, at one time, had an Iranian passport. So I knowz that they have my number already. It is why I tend have different opinions on the goings on of said country- I have actually lived there.

So: Hi Agent Mikey! Go do rude things to yourself with a plumber's helper.:evilgrin:
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Zookeeper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #4
54. The only way to maintain our freedom to speak out...
is to keep speaking out.

It's a personal decision each person has to make for her/himself, but I, too, assume that statements I make "anonymously" on the internet are traceable to me. And I keep taking a stand, as small as it is, by continuing to exercise my right to criticize this administration.

Your post has reminded me though, that young adults may feel more fearful of how expressing dissent may affect their future career and opportunities.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Exactly, that is what he said
which sadly tells us far more about where we are as a country
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fenriswolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
55. i do what i can
but their are other forms of control, debt and work and family keep me pretty busy but i flap my lips to anyone that will listen and on my one day off i stand on a street corner and hand out panphlets with information websites on them so people can clue themselves into whats going on, I know that this is almost pointless but you know what, a drop in the bucket is still a drop in the bucket and any activism, any task, anything saved is still a drop in the bucket and I will do what I can untill me or my family are threatened, then im moving to canada where I will predict have a nice balmy summer come 2 more decades.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:55 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. And welcome to DU
as to the balmy summer, I think you can right now

:hi:
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
2. I have called, written, stood in the streets and screamed, took people aside, spoke to strangers ...
And what did I get for it, what did anyone get for it? Nothing, that is what my actions have accomplished. Our Government is broken. Our Representatives are aloof, our Senators live in a bubble, our President is a criminal.

IMPEACH!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I know, been there, done that
and will continue to do it, never mind I think it is pointless

Like voting... I KNOW my vote will be stolen, but goddamit, make them work for it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
3. Most people I talk to who don't do it...
don't do it because they think it's pointless. They see votes like Snowe's politically calculated, safe vote on Habeas as indicative of EVERYTHING that goes on in DC... rigged game... no reason to try.

It gets harder and harder to argue with them.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. That is part of the process of creating anomie
and our "leaders" are enabling this
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. I'm sure it's not intentional.
:sarcasm:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Hartmman was readying quotes
from they thought they were free

As well as Mein Kampf with two words changed in the text

I had a very cold shiver running down my back
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. I have to echo the last poster...
ANOMIE

great word!

I learned today... thanks.
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BonnieJW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. I contact everyone all the time
and so do all my kids. Your kid may be afraid, but ask him if he has a page on Facebook. THAT's something to fear. Prospective employers are checking Facebook before hiring people.
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:08 PM
Response to Original message
7. When people are arrested
For wearing a tee shirt that say "give peace a chance".

Then the public should damn well be afraid..
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TomInTib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
9. Well, we wouldn't want to miss Olberman, for one thing.
But seriously, we are living in Chickenshit Nation.

I read all of these rants here and wonder just how many people here would really be willing to hit the streets in a hard way.

Even though I did it decades ago, I really question my own willingness to mix it up now.

I think that when push comes to shove, I will probably take a more defensive stance. After all, I am very well armed.
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Vilis Veritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
17. I recently started joining community groups and going
to local city council meetings. It has been an eye opener and I thank a lot of DU'ers for helping me realize that there is a lot that can be done WITHOUT taking to the streets or picking up a weapon...

Peace.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. You only get the asses of the masses in the streets when either
something is taken away that they want or need,

or

something is threatened to be taken away that they want or need.

Life, liberty, and I-pods.
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #10
36. Well you are awfully brave...
Are you not?

Send me pictures of you "taking it to the streets".

It would be much more interesting than hearing you bitch about Ipods.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Several answers
Apathy

lives are too full with life

it wont happen to me

I cant do anything about it....I'm helpless

the government will take care of everything

the government is useless

its too depressing to think about

I dont do politics



The excuses are endless
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. The excuses you just listed
fall mostly under one word: Anomie

SYLLABICATION: an·o·mie
PRONUNCIATION: n-m
VARIANT FORMS: or an·o·my
NOUN: 1. Social instability caused by erosion of standards and values. 2. Alienation and purposelessness experienced by a person or a class as a result of a lack of standards, values, or ideals: “We must now brace ourselves for disquisitions on peer pressure, adolescent anomie and rage” (Charles Krauthammer, Time May 8, 1989).
ETYMOLOGY: French, from Greek anomi, lawlessness, from anomos, lawless : a-, without; see a–1 + nomos, law; see nem- in Appendix I.
OTHER FORMS: a·nomic (-nmk, -nmk) —ADJECTIVE

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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
37. Not for nothing....
but put up or shut up!!

Where are you pictures??

You will be redeemed once they are posted.
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. Because there is no draft
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. It goes beyond a lack of a draft
though I have concluded why there is no draft... apart of the usual demonstrations

We do have a core of people in the military that are convenient for the current goals... a draft would dilute them... specifically in the US Air Force
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
23. That's just part of it. People forget: DISSENT IS NOT POPULAR!
If it were popular, it wouldn't be called "dissent."

I lived through the 50s and 60s and, apparently unlike the 'revisionist memories' of some, I understood that Martin Luther King and the Chicago Seven and others were NOT popular. I heard EXACTLY the same kind of dissing and condescending remarks from Liberals then as I read now on DU ... from the comfortable, 'informed' postures of knowing better and having 'better judgment.'

Take this to the bank: If they ain't pissing folks off, even folks on the 'left,' then they're not having any impact. Unless and until there are many people being clubbed, jailed, tasered, and punished for their civil disobedience then we don't have anything even close to the kind of dissent being demonstrated that we need.

I cheer for Code Pink, Cindy, MoveOn, and others getting roundly dissed by the effete 'liberal' snobs of DU. Even if I wouldn't employ their methods, I celebrate their every act of dissent. We need MORE, not less ... and I'll be damned if I'm going to piss on their parade.

It's only in looking back that we realize who were the heroes --- because we sure as hell won't do it while they're doing the "unpopular" thing.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Ya Said it all!
:thumbsup: from another who "remembers," what some folks only read in a history book, or got off the TEEVEE...who bloviate endlessly about how it hurts Democrats to have "dissent."
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #28
60. I wonder at the folks who seem to expect a 'popular' and heroic dissenter ...
... and seem to be making 20-20 hindsight comparisons to the likes of Malcolm and Martin. It's really no wonder that we don't have a decent protest movement ... since folks have models that are cooked in the ovens of history. We once read about Civil Disobedience from Thoreau and Guevara - now I hear people complaining that the press coverage was 'unfair.' Well, d'oh! The smear jobs done on MLK were truly dirty and pervasive - and folks seem to forget that. If it wasn't for the Weathermen and the SLA and a dozen other really 'far out' (i.e. 'extreme') groups, I doubt anything close to the changes would've been made ... even as temporarily as it seems they now were.

It's sure gonna get a lot worse before it gets better. We're far too 'comfortable.'
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
39. Great post!
Thanks. :hi:
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loves_dulcinea Donating Member (384 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. well spoken!
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The Vinyl Ripper Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. My experience exactly..
I lived through that too and you are precisely correct.

It won't be until there are truly *massive* demonstrations that anyone of any importance will take note..

We need another Chicago '68 and Kent State magnified about ten times to wake people up..
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. Well Nadin I think you are being too critical...
You aren't in the street right now are you??

I didn't think so.

You want to know the reality is that most people have no idea we are going down the toilet.

Go ask my retired neighbors. Lifelong repukes, Their children are missionaries in Africa. The wife told me about a month ago she is looking strong and hard at Edwards. These are fundamentalists... to the core. There only defense, as far as they are concerned is the ballot.

No one I know personally gives a fucking shit about politics. Everyone is just trying to get to the next day.

The ones that I do know, on an association basis, are the, as LynnDem says the "Stupidest Mutha Fuckers on the Planet".

Honest to God!!! And I swear, I have a family member right fucking now dealing with a sneak and peak. I warned her for at least two years.

People just don't fucking believe it is happening. Not until they are actually faced with these "new powers".

And I have defended the un-learned for the last few years. The ones that are bots, you are never going to convert. The ones that are tired, just can't listen. The one's that are strapped, don't have the time.

It is really and actually up to the netroots. We have all of the responsibility on our shoulders. Not to just inform but to perform. Who can be that person. I know my limitations. And as much as I would like to say "I will be there", I cannot.

So in answer to your question...

IMO
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Fantastic Reply.....nt
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. I have just one answer to you
They thought they were free

Oh and a second one

It can't happen here

As to the streets, been there, done that... done other things too... and when the dark night finally comes down... I fully expect to pay the full price
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Look Nadin...
I have such respect for you...

I remember last year when you sent my son's class donations for the soldiers.

And I hate to speak like a General, but I am just giving you the facts from the ground. That is all I got.

I have NO ONE to talk to about politics. Not a one. I am sure you remember that Kaloogian was the baseball coach of my son. I am in serious freepertown. These people will not budge. And I have all but alienated myself from them with my emails pre-invasion 2003. We just go through the common niceties. They all hate me.

My husband hates DU and he thinks that it has taken me away from him. He absolutely WILL NOT discuss anything political with me. He comes from a nest of freepers from Seattle. Disgusting as it is.

I have close family that right now are the victims of the "Patriot Act" and District Attorneys that are looking for headlines.

Everyone else I know is working their asses off to pay their mortgages and feed their kids.

Who the fuck else is there to go into the streets.

It is the Netroots. Everyone else is busy.


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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. What you are describing is anomie
I lived in a military base and niceties was all I had with a couple of my neighbors

I live in a very red area of my town

And what you are describing is anomie

And it is also fear

But just as Good Germans, your neighboors believe, in all their hearts, that they are free

That is the truth too
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. Not just that Nadin..
But ignorance, and willful blindness.

It. is. not. my, job.

I tried that these people are immovable.

So now it is up to me to pick up the slack. That is a lot to ask of a patriot. Not that a patriot would not accept, but is she to march alone?? Who will join her.

If I thought I could make a difference or join a parade, I would. But there isn't any one here that I could have an alliance with.

I am sure I am not alone.

You want to meet half way. I will join you.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. About thirty percent of any population
are authoritarian by nature, and in times of crisis will rally around the flag

There is nothing you can do about that

Now if you study the history of the War of Independence, we faced the same percentages

We had about 1\3 who were for independence in varying degrees. We had about 1\3 that were against, and many of them left the country in the midst of the war... and 1\3 that didn't care as long as did not affect them

Those who fought for independence paid a very high price... most of them

They knew this going in.

So do we

But we need to be aware of the dynamics. There are some folks (on both sides) that shall not be moved, does not matter what is done... period

But many who look for strong leaders in times of crisis do believe they are free, even when they are all but... and that is what you are seeing, and one reason why they cannot be moved. It has not affected them in any way that it will be undeniable... and that was the experience of the author who interviewed those thirty germans after the war... and why he titled the book, they thought they were free
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #20
40. And in reply to your answer...
WTF am I supposed to do.

Don't try to make me feel guilty because I am unable to rid the planet of this infestation alone. That is NOT fair.

It IS happening here, I am all too aware. Who the fuck am I????????? Hou-fucking-dini??

I am not the one that started this shit, I will not be the one can stop it. And I will NOT let you lay the blame at my feet. I just won't!!!

Do NOT condemn me or any other human being that cannot fight the monster. That is not fair. We are just human beings. And poor ones at that. Are we supposed to compete now with Blackwater??? Trying to land in our own backyard. Are we supposed to buy automatic weapons on the black market??

Really, there is not much this five foot two, one hundred and ten pound, over forty years old can do.

And I will not have you tell me it is my responsibility to clean up years of malfeasance and corruption. No way. No how.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. The temptation to let go and stop is great
And I am not putting it in your back

But the truth is it can and is happening here

Soon the decision will not be whether to march, or post on DU... but whether to keep a diary and become a witness... or even escape and become a witness somewhere else

Hannah Arendt chose that route

By the way, evil is quite banal...

And that sense of being alone, I will repeat it, it's anomie and that is part of the police state
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hang a left Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. You are scaring the fuck out of me.
I just didn't think it would happen so fast.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. It hasn't been that fast
its taken seven years... I know folks hate the comparison, but we are not that far away from the Germany of 1938

That is when Hannah decided to leave

We have decided to stay... and I am aware of the consequences of staying

In fact, they have habituated the people slowly but surely
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
22. Anomie, I had to look it up, great word!
The next time I'm told that Americans are apathetic, I know how to respond. It's not apathy, it's anomie!

I refuse! I will live free and die well!

Thank you nadin!

-Hoot
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. You welcome
I guess that ancient Sociology class paid up

;-)
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Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
24. Maybe they don't want to get run over.
I see kids walk in the street sometimes. I always shake my head
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tekisui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. it is a process. step by step.
so many people don't even know that they should question. they trust their leaders, at church, in school, on the teevee, the govment. they have their whole lives.

for a long time we've been pacified. many of us our entire lives. one day you start asking questions and things don't add up. alot of people are there.

one day you seek out the answers. how could this happen? what exactly is going on? you venture out of the mass media we've been fed, our whole lives, for real information. you go to college. alot of people are there.


one day you get angry at what is happening. you know enough to know things need to change. you feel powerless and intimidated and scared. but, you are paying attention and mad as hell. alot of us are there.

turning that rage into something constructive is a hard next step. we have to be taught that, in fact, protesting is legal! we have to be informed that yes, we have rights. we have to learn what actually works.

honestly, I don't know what actually works. it's one of the reasons I come to DU.

but, I believe a movement is ripening.
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Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. Street Demonstrations are no longer effective.
Unless violence occurs the Mess Media barely covers any demonstrations. Then if violence &/or arrests occur it is viewed as a negative. The street is a way to get together personnaly with others though. Other means of Resistance are occurring & building. The big change must be in the Electoral System.

The Electoral System

Repeal the 12th amendment, reforming the electoral college, standardizing party qualifications in the states, qualified and free access to public airwaves.

1.Uniform Ballot Access
2.Loosen Third Party Ballot Restrictions
3.Universal Voter Registration
4.Election Day Holiday
5.Equal Media Access/Debate Inclusion
6.Instant Runoff Voting (IRV)
7.Secure Voting Machines
8.Public Campaign Financing
9.Direct Popular Vote Election of the President
10.DC Congressional Representation

But the Commission on Presidential Debates -- set up 13 years ago by the two major parties and amply funded by large corporations -- knows what's best for its backers. The commission is insisting on a strict 15-percent-in-the-polls threshold for participation, a requirement that seems sure to limit the debates to Bush and Gore.

Despite its civic-minded pose, the commission has always been looking out for the interests of the Democratic and Republican parties. It arrived on the political scene in 1987 to hijack the nation's presidential debates -- while ousting the nonpartisan League of Women Voters, a group viewed by the major parties' hierarchies as insufficiently subservient to their desires. At the outset, a New York Times headline got it right: "Democrats and Republicans Form Panel to Hold Presidential Debates."
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
31. This is where the corporate state leads.
First, many people don't care. And if they did care, they're uninformed. The media is tv. It used to be the paper. Even those I know who are vehemently opposed to this administration, very very few are doing anything. They're busy living their lives. The government is suppose to run itself, smoothly. I think that's what most people believe.

They don't realize the government is THEM.

This is the way this country has been steered. They'll do it for us. This is the problem with the corporate state. From the things we consume to the media to the government. It's all supposed to be done "for us".

America is US.

People do not realize that.

And during Vietnam, you had to be out of line to get clubbed. Now you can be tazered. And for doing much less than breaking store windows. But that is not the problem. If it were, we'd at least see people on the streets.

But I will say that this has ratcheted up since the drug war. They scared us with that. And I was asking the same question then. Why weren't people hitting the streets? Nothing. Hardly a peep. Even when the SWAT teams roamed the land. Even when they broke down the wrong door, and the old man died of a heart attack. Even then, no one gave a crap. After all, it was only a few crazies doing drugs. But that wasn't it. It was a scheme to scare us, and further a conservative agenda to fund wars through drug money. This is what is going on. Only the people have been two steps behind. We didn't know.

You know what I really think? I think our representatives should have been speaking up. Kerry knew about Iran Contra. Was he screaming and shouting on every media outlet? I don't think so. The people are being lead, despite how it should work. And our representatives aren't sounding alarm bells like they should be.

Those are my thoughts. After all, we did hit the streets. By the millions. We've got trouble.
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
32. Learn from history...
Others have mentioned "They Thought They Were Free" by Milton Mayer. Here's what they are talking about.

But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933,between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the universe was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was "expected to" participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one's energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on." "Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, "regretted," that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your "little men," your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something - but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, "everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to you colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to – to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying "Jew swine," collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in – your nation, your people – is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done ( for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or "adjust" your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know." 

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn't an anti-Nazi. He was just – a judge. In "42" or "43", early "43", I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an "Aryan" woman. This was "race injury", something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case a bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a "nonracial" offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party "processing" which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the "nonracial" charge, in the judge's opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom."

"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience – a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That's how I heard about it.) After the "44" Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don't know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was "defeatism." You assumed that there were lists of those who would be "dealt with" later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a "victory orgy" to "take care of" those who thought that their "treasonable attitude" had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything "necessary" to win it; so it was with the "final solution" of the Jewish problem, which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its "necessities" gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany's losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."
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OzarkDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Great essay, very timely
thanks for posting.
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Beelzebud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
34. For the most part, they're fat, lazy, and too stupid to know there is an excuse to be mad as hell.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
42. Really? When were you last "out in the streets?" Most Towns & Cities in America have Vigils
and work with local groups....they stand everywhere....and the Corporate Owned M$M never REPORTS!

It's only the blood and violence of mass confrontations like Kent State Killings (that were the final straw in America's Vietnam experience) compared to all those jailed for bombin and rebellious actions that most DU'ers wouldn't EVER APPROVE! They'd be with the Repugs in saying....How Dreadful, How Horrible...we must be more peaceful...we must keep "our powder dry" ...we must negotiate and hope for a Democratic Majority that will make the "bad stuff just go away." BTW let me get my nails done or whine on an Internet Site.
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
44. Because of this:
Edited on Wed Sep-19-07 04:58 PM by JanMichael
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
45. Because of this too:
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
46. And lastly because of this:
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bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
51. Where's the OUTRAGE about poverty and homelessness?
Why aren't progressives in the street about that?

You see, it's all a matter of your perspective.
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ThePowerofWill Donating Member (462 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:20 PM
Response to Original message
52. Well, the last time i went to the streets to protest i had my ass whipped.
That did not bother me when i was young, but it's a hell of a deterrent when you are getting old.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Welcome to DU
by the way
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Wiley50 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
57. More and More Are In The Streets
and sleeping in shelters and under bridges

And as foreclosures keep rising......
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-19-07 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. Welcome to 1930s America
:-)

aka the great depresion
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