Lets Talk Chavez and Venezuela

[ludwigb]

I notice there are lots of DUers hostile to Chavez and Venezuela.

I don't get it. This is the only world leader I know of who actually recommends Noam Chomsky books in UN speeches. He is actually fighting for liberty. He has taken over the oil resources at the perfect time (ie record profits) and is spending the proceeds on education and health care for his people, not to mention constructive aid to the rest of Latin America. And I like the way he does it--emphasize how the Constitution grants new rights and empower the people to preserve and protect it.

I suppose I'm a sucker for democratic socialist revolutionaries in general. And though I have some ambivalence about his military background, I also like to see a leftist leader conveying power and showing he can't be intimidated. At some point we must recognize the necessity to fight for our rights--otherwise leftist thought becomes docile and domesticated. Chavez's earnest and masculine rhetoric seems welcome and invigorating.

Flame all you want. If you disagree with me, I would appreciate links to serious people who believe Chavez has gone astray--naturally not everything he does is commendable. But no fluffy mainstream media pieces please--no propaganda.

I'll admit I won't think so fondly of Chavez is he's still president 10 years from now (although I'll hope he continues to fight for reforms even out of office).

[rudeboy666]

1. Uneasy is more like it.

What disturbs me even more is the seemingly blind following on the part of many progressives. They seem to be so enamored by Chavez that they tend to brush off (often in a hostile manner) any criticism of the great leader.

As a liberal, I say question ALL authority.

[bemildred]

2. I'm more than willing to keep an eye of Chavez.

On the other hand, I believe absolutely nothing I hear about him from the state propaganda organs here in the USA.

[ludwigb]

3. This is unfortunate

The bias is so transparent here that you really have to spend time on every allegation to see if there is any substance to it.

Ultimately it's a lesson in citizenship--mistrust the bias and comprehend power channeled through media.

[bemildred]

4. To be honest, I don't worry about it much.

It is Venezuela's problem, if it is a problem, and I respect their autonomy in dealing with it. And when I compare him with the weasels that ran that place before, it's just hard for me to get worked up. He may have flaws, he may succumb to the lust for power, who can say? But we have some serious power junkies right here in the good old USA, and they are my business far more than Chavez, and I see no sign that he is even a little worse that the stooge oligarchy that he displaced.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

37. its funny how americans will keep an eye out on other governments, meanwhile our own government

keeps robbing us blind.

[EFerrari]

40. And getting us killed. Don't forget that part. n/t

[La Lioness Priyanka]

44. true.

[AllyCat]

65. I think we need to watch them all.

Chavez is no saint, but at least he tries to protect his people and others (including AMERICANS!) which is more than I can say for our own worthless idiots in DC.

I focus on him because it's great to see something going right somewhere when our own country is threatening to go down the toilet just about any day (yes, I'm watching and fighting this mess here too). Also, I like to know what he's up to so that I can continue to justify buying my gasoline from Venezuela and thumbing my nose at the Middle East.

BUY Citgo!!!

[EFerrari]

7. My experience is exactly opposite. The DUers who follow Chavez

are the ones who go to the trouble of tracking down the facts. There's nothing "blind" about it.

But I agree with you about questioning authority and its uses.

[KaptBunnyPants]

71. I agree, no authority figure should be blindly trusted.

What I don't understand is the blind hostility to him. The pattern seen with an issue related to Venezuela is always the same. Some newspaper which is owned by a company which supported the 2002 coup releases a hit piece on Chavez, accusing him in the most inflammatory terms possible of doing something antidemocratic. The condemned action, invariably, is a standard governmental action like those typically found in the US or in other Western Democracies, but the anti-Chavez group comes in saying something like "See, I told you Comrade Chavez was Stalin with a Summer tan". After it's pointed out that Europeans, Canadians, and Americans have the same policies or worse, the response is always "OK, maybe this doesn't show how much of a villain he is. But his is one, mark my words. In 5 years time we'll all be talking about his concentration camps." The way I see it, he's pissing off all of the right people. The fact that the oligarchs who want him deposed can't find anything legitimate to attack him with is a good sign. Maybe he'll turn out to be a typical corrupt pseudo-Leftist tyrant, but he's one of the few political figures I'm still optimistic about. That's why I stick up for him when he is attacked on DU for less than compelling reasons.

[Macchendra]

5. Perfect Topic: DUers Against Chavez Need to Kill their TV

It is also a great litmus of the candidates:

Obama:
On p. 315 of The Audacity of Hope, Obama says that poor nations should NOT follow "left-leaning populists" like "Venezuela’s Hugo Chavez" in thinking they "should resist America’s efforts to expand its hegemony" and try to "follow their own path to development." Such dysfunctional "reject the ideals of free markets and liberal democracy" will only worsen the situation of the global poor, Obama claims. (with apologies to Paul Street)

Hillary:
"...I don't want to see the power and prestige of the United States President put at risk by rushing into meetings with the likes of Chavez..."

Edwards:
"What Hillary said."

Kucinich:
"We are writing to express our solidarity during this important moment in Venezuela’s history. It is our hope and expectation that, on August 15, you will once again win an electoral mandate from the Venezuelan people to be their president."

Great post, ludwigb!

[EFerrari]

8. Lol!

:applause:

[Macchendra]

17. A perfect example of why playing to the middle...

...doesn't work!

Consider this:
The Bush Administration's support of the anti-democratic coup plotters in 2002 during their 2 day reign is one of their most shameful moments. Furthermore, it underscores their general lack of commitment to the democratic institutions of the world. (Along with their actions in Haiti, which were also apologized/shilled for by many Democratic politicians) This belies the claim that their intentions in Iraq were ever to promote democracy. By being afraid of not going along with the "Chavez is a bad guy" line of all public discourse, they lose the opportunity to point out this shameful moment. You have to point out that the Emperor is wearing no clothes. You cannot say: "I respect the emperor's conviction, and in fact, we share the same tailor."

Let's start acting like we are Democrats.

[EFerrari]

33. The biweekly hits pieces on Chavez are interesting to me

It's interesting to see which media outlets print them and what the hook is. There's a dissertation in folklore there, somewhere.

And, there was a thread here some time ago where the OP asked us to list all the countries where the United States had "spread democracy". That was a riot because no one could find one.

[PDenton]

11. So Obama is basicly saying

... he believes in Neo Liberal economics? He's just another corporate whore?

Does Obama actually believe in anything beyond glittering generalities? Or is he just going to be a black Ronald Reagan? Wasn't it the LA Times that called him the "Magic Negro" (or if you prefer, Magical African-American Friend), the mythical, semi-caricatured black man that assuages all your white guilt with his clean and articulate ways? That could be the source of his popularity. I have yet to hear Obama say anything really substantive. Much like Mitt Romney he's just a clean cut empty suit- so far. He really needs to get tough on what he thinks his vision for America is, beyond his magical ways of "vote for me and I'll snap my fingers and make everything better".

[AllyCat]

63. Obama is a corporatist. Chavez doesn't put his countries money

in New York banks AND helps to bail out other poor Latin and South American countries (Ecuador and Argentina come to mind) when they get set up by the World Bank for economic failure.

[redqueen]

64. LOVE IT!

:applause:

:yourock:

:7


That REALLY deserves its own thread!

[bvar22]

93. Cheers to Macchendra

Great Post!
Everything a "Democrat" needs to know to make their choice.
Thanks!
:patriot:

[MazeRat7]

6. Take a look at this...

Sorry its a PDF, but its from an outfit called the "Center for Economic and Policy Research". It takes a good look a the recovery that has happened since Chavez assumed power in 1998. I don't know anything about CEPR, but since the article is pretty apolitical, I figured it was safe to include here.

Anyway, it gives a good overview of the reduction in the poverty rate, the increase in social spending, increase in their GDP, their inflation rate, and how oil factors into all this.

Hope someone else finds it interesting, I did.

http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/venezuela_2007_07.pdf

MZr7

[eridani]

21. CEPR wrote some really good defenses of Social Security a couple of years ago

That's mainly what I know about them.

[PDenton]

9. viva chavez

He's one of the few guys in South America that isn't trying to run his country like a Banana Republic. He is also challenging neo-liberal economic policies. I believe that this free market, free trade stuff is all BS, it's nice to see some world leaders who won't buy into it.

[AuntPatsy]

10. My brother in law and his family lived in Venezuela for over a year

My sister in law told me that among the poorer people, Chavez was dispised, I wouldn't have know that by reading many posts about him here, but she was there and she heard them and witnessed it all first hand, she told me that some were fearful of him so alot of the anger against him remained hidden, I was kind of shocked to be honest after reading accounts about him here.

[Whisp]

12. well, at least now more in Ven would know how to spell despised.

thanks to the evil dictator and that evil education thing he has going on.

cheap shot, I know, sorry.

[AuntPatsy]

14. No problem honestly, Spelling words wrong does not make my post any less dishonest.

[Richard Steele]

89. I agree completely. nm

[Macchendra]

13. The poor are his only support...

Venezuela is a very striated society where the majority of the population are very poor. This sharp class division is also along racial lines, with the Latinos being mostly in the upper-class, and the indigenous and black people being mostly in the lower.

In addition to this they suffer from extreme media concentration in the hands of the wealthy. One of the main media stations, whose license he would eventually choose not to renew, actively participated in the anti-democratic 2002 coup against him. They were allowed to continue broadcasting for several years after the coup. Most of the wealthier Venezuelans get their news from this source and are probably not reliable sources of information on the situation in Venezuela. Especially if they believe such absurdities as: "among the poorer people, Chavez was dispised" (sic)

[AuntPatsy]

15. That is what I thought but I promise you she swore such was not the case.

I am not trying to annoy anyone, I am just stating what I heard from and American who lived there and I promise is not apolitical at all.

[tkmorris]

18. I really have to question the validity of that

If anyone has a reason to dislike Chavez in Venezuela it would be the rich landowners and some types of businessmen. The poor however have benefited TREMENDOUSLY under Chavez, and you can read the pdf file posted up-thread to see why.

Poverty has plummeted, education and literacy rates are skyrocketing, unemployment is at it's lowest level in over a decade, and so on. The poorest Venezuelans are the ones who have fared the best under Chavez. In fact, all of the coverage I can find from Venezuela seems to show that in the poorest barrios the man is virtually worshiped.

I'm not trying to insinuate anything about you or your sister-in-law but your information just doesn't jibe at all with anything else I have been hearing.

[eleny]

54. Hi AP, Did your sil say why they didn't like him?

[WinkyDink]

59. I can't quite take that as Gospel, sorry.

[cherokeeprogressive]

61. When it comes to Chavez, firsthand information isn't good enough.

Am I the only one who sees something strange here?

[redqueen]

66. You mean how the firsthand account differs so much from reality?

Yeah... that is strange.

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. Which "reality" would that be?

The one YOU experienced when YOU were in Venezuela? Or the one you know to be true because you've talked with someone who lived there?

[redqueen]

74. The one where the poor are his ONLY support.

Remember? The ones who marched in the streets and risked getting shot by right-wing troops so they could keep him in office, after the US-backed coup?

Remember that coup? The one the whore media doesn't talk about, preferring instead to print hit pieces on Chavez so they can be dutifully tsk-tsked over by 'concerned' DUers?

[cherokeeprogressive]

84. "ONLY" Don't you think that's an overly broad statement?

[redqueen]

85. Nope.

Based on the news coming out of there AND the people I've talked to who live there... that's how it is.

[LittleClarkie]

16. Well, it's just that the dude isn't perfect

and so if people want to criticize a move he's made, they shouldn't have to deal with being called "haters" or "anti-Chavez" people.

And sadly there are times when he looks like a lefty version of Bush. Same arrogance. They're like mirror images.

[eridani]

20. Get back to me when Chavez invades a helpless country--

--and slaughters a million people.

[cali]

29. You certainly set the

bar awfully high.

[eridani]

96. When the anti-Chavez types display as much concern for Columbia--

--and Peru, you'll have some believability when you talk about democracy. Half the union actvists murdered in any given year are killed in Columbia. Garcia of Peru is using his temporary executive powers (exactly the same kind that Chavez was granted, which happen to be a very common feature of Latin American constitutions) to bomb coca-growing peasants. Those things are still far short of the mass murder Bush is perpetrating in the ME, but are a much lower bar anyway. And Chavez is STILL far, far under that particular bar.

[EFerrari]

31. Have you watched Greg Palast's interviews with Chavez?

He's nothing like that moron in the White House. He's intelligent, literate, and confident -- not stupid, unread and arrogant.

[Liberal In Texas]

46. Also, watch John Pilger's "War On Democracy".

http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk/video_cover-ups.htm

[redqueen]

67. The whore media is soooooo effective. n/t

[eridani]

19. Leftists without military backgrounds tend to wind up like Allende n/t

[redqueen]

68. And Chavez nearly did! If that film crew wasn't there...

and if those poor people hadn't taken to the streets.

:scared:

[ima_sinnic]

22. FDR was pres. for 12 yrs, so why should 10 bother you?

as long as Chavez is elected in free democratic elections, I don't care if he is president for life. the 22nd Amendment (ratified in 1951) made sure the choice of We The People, whoever it was, would be limited to 2 terms. Now, of course, with st. ronnie and bush the junior the GOP, which I'm sure pushed the 22nd Amendment for all it was worth, are regretting that nasty ole term limits thing. It was great when it applied to the "commie," FDR, but was hell when their uber trickle-down heroes had to go.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. He said ten years from *now*.

Not ten years total. That would be eighteen years in office and yes, some people do believe that that is too long for one person to serve as head of the executive.

[ludwigb]

56. Power Corrupts

Chavez and his people ought to be able to understand that. You gotta have term limits on the executive in a constitutional democracy.

[killbotfactory]

92. Term limits are great until people find ways to get around them

like what is happening in the US with Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton. Who cares if the figurehead changes if the same damn people are in charge?

[subsuelo]

23. I loved his "George Bush, you are a donkey" video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWAJVH8pTWI

:rofl:

[cali]

24. I don't know enough to come down on one side or another but I

I always like to pick apart flawed arguments.

Recommending Noam Chomsky is not an argument for his leadership.

Vague statements like: "He's actually fighting for liberty", are pretty meaningless.

"Chavez' earnest and masculine rhetoric seems welcome and invigorating". Again so what? How is that germane to his leadership? That's simply opinion, and in my book, "masculine" rhetoric can be a negative as easily as a positive.

Your deciding who is or is not a "serious" person, or what is or is not propaganda, tilts the playing field of discourse unfairly.

As I said, I don't know much about Chavez or Venezuela- not that I think most DUers, either pro or con Chavez, do either, but I do know a fair amount about rhetoric. I'm not terribly impressed by your argument.

[ludwigb]

57. I'm not making an argument--I'm asking for counterarguments.

-"Fighting for liberty"==he fights hard so the people of Venezuela maintain basic rights and get a fair share of oil profits

-Recommends Noam Chomsky==shows he actually thinks about stuff, that he's open to models other than the WTO/Neo-liberal ones

-Masculinity and the Left==the widespread perception that the Left are pushovers degrades the battle for liberty. At least in his part of the world, Chavez holds hope for a tough but peaceful socialism.

-All I'm saying to those who diss him is SHOW ME THE MONEY. What has he done wrong that tips the scale against him, when you consider his accomplishments in providing his people health-care and literacy, investing oil wealth in the future, helping other nations, providing a sane alternative model to the world...

[vincent_vega_lives]

78. Chavez and the oil money

All the money hasn't gone to the poor.


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez spent over $2.17 billion in 2005 to acquire Russian assault rifles and helicopters, Spanish transport aircraft and missile-capable corvettes, and Brazilian turboprop light attack aircraft.

http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200602141617


Russian arms manufacturers are first in line to supply Chavez with more assault rifles and helicopters. Russian companies also have indicated their willingness to supply Venezuela with SAMs and MiGs, although formal negotiations haven’t started yet. In fact, Venezuela could be Russia’s third largest arms buyer this year, after China and India. On Feb. 9, Mikhail Dmitriyev, director of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation, said that “If Venezuela wants to obtain MiGs, we are prepared to cooperate.” Russian arms exports totaled a record $6.1 billion in 2005, and Dmitriyev said orders for another $23 billion in weapons are already in the pipeline. Chavez’s military shopping list could represent billions of dollars in additional contracts for Russian arms exporters.

Venezuela will be purchasing three new generation submarines. German Type 212/214 submarines and French-Spanish Scorpio submarines will also be reviewed.

MOSCOW, June 14 (RIA Novosti) - Venezuela is close to striking a deal with Russia on the procurement of several diesel submarines for its Navy, a source in the Russian shipbuilding industry said Thursday. The value of the contracts, depending on the final size of the order, is estimated at $1-2 billion, the paper cited its own sources in the defense industry.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

25. What I and a lot of other people object to...

...is not necessarily Chavez' actions, but the cult of personality of some of his supporters, who accuse anyone who questions his actions with treason against liberty or some such nonsense. He is not beyond reproach - no more so than any other leader. Nobody here is angry at him for recommending Chomsky. Nonetheless, having recommended Chomsky is not a magical force field that protects him from criticism.

[redqueen]

69. Cult of personality?

*sigh*

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

77. yes.

there is a distinct minority here amongst whom chavez can do no wrong, and they regularly accuse anyone who disagrees wilti them of ignorance and duplicity.

[redqueen]

80. Who says Chavez can do no wrong?

Can you cite even one instance?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

82. read this very thread.

and you have people being accused of being dupes for disagreeing with him. And this thread is quite quiet by comparison to some.

[redqueen]

83. I have.

I didn't see ONE person say he could do no wrong.

[KG]

27. there's a large segment of DU that their shrill protests to the contrary,

feels more threatened by the left than the right.

[cali]

28. ooh, broad brush smearing.

you gotta love it. Particularly on a liberal board.

[KG]

35. that's not a smear.

and you know it. but thanks anyway.

[cali]

38. sure it is:

" there's a large segment of DU that their shrill protests to the contrary,
feels more threatened by the left than the right"

And worse than that, you're purporting to tell others what they think, even when they tell you to the contrary. Just as you did to me, in the post I'm responding to.

[KG]

41. whatever. have at your little indignations. i'm just expressing an opinion.

[EFerrari]

39. In this thread alone, the claim is made several times that

people who support Chavez believe he is perfect and won't admit of criticism. There is no factual criticism.

[cali]

43. That sucks too. n/t

[redqueen]

70. Who needs facts?

Bullshit works great for the whore media... and if you can't beat 'em...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

30. i find american arrogance about chavez to be highly irritating. venezuelans have a right to decide

the course of their country. its really not our place to decide when a leader makes us uneasy and what the courses of action in this situation are.

[EFerrari]

34. It's an old American tradition, "civilizing" other peoples.

Why do you hate Amerika? :)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. lol!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. That's precisely my objection to Chavez: Venezuelans have a right to decide, and he's taking it away

Ever since he came to power, Hugo Chavez has been taking a series of deeply undemocratic and illiberal steps to ensure that he never again has to fight a free or fair election, and that there will never again be a chance for an opposition to compete against him on a level playing field.

At present, he appears still to have considerably popular support, but he's using increasingly illegitimate means to ensure that, which severely devalues it as a democratic mandate.

If he left power tomorrow, his legacy would, on balance, be positive. But it's sadly obvious to all but the deliberately blind that he has no intention of allowing himself to be removed from power by democratic means any time in the future, and that he will do whatever is necessary to ensure that.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

45. doesnt he have 70% approval of venezuals. i heard that report on BBC not more than a month ago.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

47. I never said he didn't.

As I made very clear in my first post, my objection to Chavez is not that he doesn't currently have popular support - he clearly does - it's that a) he's using illegitimate means to maintain that support, and b) he clearly has no intention of leaving power even if/when he ceases to do so.

It's easy to maintain popular support if you have sufficient control of the media and the apparatus of state, and abuse it - lots of rulers of one-party states score high in polls.

[ret5hd]

49. a moralist AND a mindreader!

Man, we are SO lucky.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

51. Don't be daft.

One doesn't have to read minds to predict people's intentions from their words and actions.

[ludwigb]

58. LOL he has no such thing

Since when does Chavez control the media?

[BestCenter]

86. Since the time

when his major media opponents got shut down.

[LittleClarkie]

76. How high was Bush's approval rating right after 9/11

"Oh no, take our rights. We WANT you to."

[Macchendra]

60. They venezuelan people are responsible...

...for many of those changes, through referendums and their national assembly.

The only people that have had a voice have been the wealthy, and many people there want to level the playing field. Also, most of the economic playing field was established during actual dictatorships, such as Standard Oil's (S.O. -> Esso -> Exxon) "property rights".

Tell me, what would have happened in America if there were as obvious a coup as happened there?
I tell you, the main instigator would not be walking around free, and furthermore if a major network had backed the coup openly they would not have been allowed to continue operating for years afterward promoting anti-democratic action.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

52. We're not allowed to have opinions about foreign leaders now?

Why is it "arrogant" for Americans to be critical of Chavez? We've got every right to form opinions about world leaders and share them with others. Nobody on DU is suggesting that we invade Venezuela or assasinate Chavez.

[malaise]

32. Good post n/t

[Saboburns]

48. I enjoy the Chavez Debate here

I support Hugo Chavez. Criticism of Hugo Chavez is warranted.

But the thing that bothers me is the criticism that nearly always include accusations that he is becoming a Dictator. Is that memo so ingrained into the American Psyche that Socialist Leaders=Dictators????


He refuses to renew a broadcasting license for one station who actively participated in a coup against the Venezuelan Government and suddenly he's taken over all media.

OMIGAWD!!!!!!!!!

And lately the Headline "Chavez <b>MAY</b> take over Private Schools". Which if you were to delve toe deep into this topic shows that all he's asking for is that the government oversee exactly what the curriculum consists of, and, OMIGAWD, he's taken over the school system.


He keeps getting re elected in free and fair elections.

And the point most people miss, and this is hugely important to me, is that he's doing exactly what he campaigned on. In other words he told the people of Venezuela what he intended, AND THE PEOPLE OF VENEZUELA VOTED HIM INTO OFFICE TO DO THESE THINGS.

By all means question authority. By all means criticize.

Don't be fooled by hit pieces and propaganda.

[Macchendra]

50. We import nearly as much oil from VZ as Saudi Arabia!

Which makes this a very relevant geopolitical issue!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

55. The word "dictator" gets thrown around far too often in these debates.

However, you've got to admit that things like the enabling act and attempting to get rid of term limits are not necessarily in the best interests of democracy, and that it is possible for reasonable people to disagree on whether these policies are good. None of these policies make him a dictator, and any of these policies individually would have parallels in one if not more other functioning democracies. However, the general feeling I and many other people get is that these actions taken together establish a somewhat disturbing patten, the end result of which will mean that Chavez will be unassailable by anyone who isn't his chosen successor, simply because the system will be rigged against them. That is not healthy democracy, and I think it's completely legitimate to praise some of Chavez' humanitarian efforts while simultaneously being worried or alarmed by some of his more cynical manipulations.

[eridani]

95. Our system is unassailable by anyone who can't get hundreds of millions of dollars

--from our corporate elite. Venezuela is way healthier than we are by that criterion.

[Exiled in America]

53. He's a little too crazy for my taste, but I'm still glad he's around.

[redqueen]

62. Yeah... it's a real head-scratcher!

Another funny thing... is if you notice... nearly ALL the anti-chavez posts are short on facts and long on rhetoric.

Pretty weird coincidence, huh?

[EFerrari]

72. I sort of understand because we're being bombarded by

disinfo in the media at least twice a week from some big outlet. It works like a contaminate or something.

This is the same media that tells us the Democrats are cowards, that we are traitors and that Petraeus is a boy scout instead of a bloody sell out. Might be a good thing to keep in mind. :shrug:

[ShaneGR]

75. Liberty is not permanent one party rule.... nt

[Rhodekill]

79. Upcoming Trip

It is very funny to watch both sides here argue the merits of Chavez.

I will be in Venezuela for a week in October. I hope to have some real first hand knowledge of what the people think of him when I return.

[redqueen]

81. Interesing that you've been a lurking member for two years...

but THIS is the topic that gets you posting.

[Rhodekill]

87. Re

Yeah I have been lurking, reading and learning here for more than 2 years.

I have never had much to add so I never posted. I wanted to post on this thread as I feel like going down there will give me a better insight into Chavez and what the people think of him rather than listening to all the followers on here with no real first hand knowledge.

[redqueen]

88. The "followers" huh?

Yeah... that's totally fair! I can tell you're going down there without any bias whatsoever.

I look forward to reading whatever opinion it is that you may eventually have once you visit the people there.

[Rhodekill]

90. Re

No bias here. I really want to know what the people think, not what I read in the media.

I have been lucky enough to travel to several countries in the last year. Brazil, Mexico and the Bahamas and I can tell you first hand that what we read here in our media is very different from what the people of those countries think.

[redqueen]

91. Okay...

sorry to be so suspicious... we have far more than our fair share of disruptors here.

Then again, no... I guess the pukes are pretty much universally overrepresented... whether it's here, kos, TPM...

Hope you enjoy your trip.

[BornagainDUer]

94. It's quite simple, all you have to do is...

watch what Chavez does and see if the people are better off by his actions. Ditto for Fidel Castro. Castro made the Cubans quality of life measures better across the board. Chavez is on his way to doing the same thing for Venezuela.
What freedoms he purportedly crimps are only those of people who want to return to the days exploitation.

"If there is a conflict between human rights and property rights human rights prevail"--Abraham Lincoln.