DU women, in here. We need to talk a bit about rights and perceptions.

[Skidmore]

Today I was speaking with a young woman who is a fervent Dem--very active and was the delegate for our area in the 06 election. We were discussing the current field of candidates and she said something that absolutely floored me. She said that she wouldn't vote for Hillary because she represented "angry women" and is a feminist. I asked her what is wrong with fighting for women's rights and that I was an angry woman too. I told her I won't caucus for Hillary because she's a corporatist, but not because she's a feminist. I asked her how old she was and she about 23 years younger than me. Then I told her I remember a much more restricted role for women and a time when young women died in back alleys and had limited options for education. I told her that vestiges of those times are being promoted now and that we are sliding backwards at an alarming rate. I told her when we lose the right to participate in our society on many levels it will be hard to win back those rights. I told her that if we give those hard fought rights away, those battles will have to be fought again. That we risk handing to our daughters and granddaughters a tattered and shameful legacy. She looked confused. I told her I disagreed with her greatly on this topic. We cannot afford to go backward any further.

Yes, I am an angry woman right now and if we women lose our anger we lose our rights under the current administration. I will take issue with Hillary on the war and corporatism, but I'll defend her on this front, as I will defend this young woman. I was astounded to find a young woman in the Democratic party thinking this way. Have you come across this anywhere?

[Mythsaje]

1. Eeek...

I remember reading a few years ago some of the things said by members of Congress during the ERA debates and staring aghast at the words. It wasn't all that long ago, really. Well within my lifetime and some of these statements were dispicable.

I think some of the younger women have lost sight of what it took to get them where they are. Not that where they are is much better than where they were in some respects. Too many men still have no respect for them as intellectual equals, among other things.

I would like to see a woman President. I really would. I just REALLY don't want it to be Hillary.

[benny05]

12. I'm with you on this one

And I want a woman who can make it to the presidency on the merit of her own work, not because she was married to a President. But the young woman hasn't seen the threats yet of anti-family establishment (which means we have choices).

[Iris]

31. Being a Senator does not give her her own merit?

I can't buy that Hillary Clinton is riding Bill's coattails.

[benny05]

34. Unfortunately, that is not the case

When Mrs. Clinton keeps talking about her husband's record and "we", so my answer is no, she is not running mainly on her merits as a junior senator.

[Evergreen Emerald]

35. She is an exceptional senator in her own right

I am so tired of the requirement that women need to have more on their resume than her male counterparts. Tell me what experience Obama has that Clinton does not? Tell me what experience Bush had that Clinton does not? Thompson?

It is a load of crap to suggest that Clinton does not have the experience or "merit" on her own.

[benny05]

42. Obama isn't my candidate either

Clinton and Chuck Schumer were good together in keeping the first responders in the minds of Congress when 9/11 happened. But then you see SiCKO and realize that Clinton fell down on the job for second responders, those who volunteered to help out from her neighboring state. Not her problem I guess. The woman had to go to Cuba to get the medicine she needed? That's ridiculous.

[demnan]

2. Thank you for this post

I've also noticed among younger women a hesitancy to acknowledge our feminist past. You can blame, in part, an education system that doesn't promote the reading of Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinhem or any of the classic feminist writers. We have also lost a sense of our feminists history, what women fought for when they fought to get the vote.

We older women who grew up in the 70's (I'm 51) learned all that while the feminist movement was very active. We should be sure we make our younger sisters aware as well so they don't judge our past by male chauvinist historical standards.

[Iris]

32. Sadly, Friedan's book was scheduled to be re-released in Sept. 2001

Maybe it was, but you can guess why it didn't make many headlines.

[uppityperson]

3. Sometimes I realize I am aging. This is one of those times.

Many people under 50 do not know what it was like. Having lived in a time of better rights than those of us older than that, they take it for granted. I have not come across this particularly in regards to H.Clinton, but esp to Choice issues. I am sad that I can not support H.Clinton because of her stance on many issues, wish I could BECAUSE she is female.

[seabeyond]

4. i have had this conversation with 15 and 18 yr old nieces.

both deny the femenist movement. both i asked, you believe in equal pay for equal job. they say yes. i say,... you are feminist.

i explained that the word feminist has been made to be unfeminine and bastardized by the male community that feel threatened by equal female power. are they willing to fall for that manipulation. what 20 yr old female want to be preceived as a hard female. but that is the word has been interpreted for so many years.

i am concerned about the girls today not understanding the advancements we have made over last couple decades. they have no concept or knowledge because it is not what they saw or grew up with.

[bbgrunt]

40. Well, this is not a new phenomenon. It was happening back in the 70's

and 80's. Women were prefacing their comments with "I'm not a feminist, but....." Just like the right denigrated the liberal label, they have also caused women to back away from the stereotype they created of an angry, butch, castrating female. No wonder young women today have no appreciation of their hard fought for rights. Too many women themselves are complacent and manipulated by ever pervasive media marketing--

and just like liberals will never win the confidence of the electorate if they aren't willing to take some bold tactics like calling for impeachment, young women are caught in the pressures between hormonal and peer pressure and lack of historical perspective and end up simply flailing around trying to fit in. Yes, it would seem that there will have to be a 3rd wave of feminism if we can get past the fascism first.

[blm]

5. I come across people who WISH Hillary was an angry feminist instead of a willing

partner to the authoritarians and their need for a closed government.

[bobbolink]

Yes, many, many younger women, for a long time now, refuse the term feminism.

It's just one more facet of the success of Rush. "Feminazi" won.

"Liberal" is a bad word.

"Sensitive" is a crime against humanity.

It's all part of the same mess.

[annabanana]

6. Lack of adequate education leads to cultural and social amnesia.

The women's movement was never NEVER taught in the public schools. Kids seldom read anything that isn't assigned.

[redqueen]

7. I have most certainly come across that attitude.

It makes no sense... but it's part of a pattern.

Michael Moore makes a movie... makes a lot of news... takes a side on issues: many who are in line with liberal ideology decide to "not like" him cause he's "just like Ann Coulter".

Chavez revolutionizes his country... makes a lot of news... takes a side on issues: many who are in line with liberal ideology decide to "not like" him because he's "just like Bush".

Feminists demand fair treatment... make a lot of nose... take a side on issues: many who are in line with feminist ideology decide to "not like" feminists because they're "just like the opposite".

It makes absolutely no sense at all... some kind of false balance thing... drives me nuts.

[annabanana]

8. Direct her to that TV show "mad Men" about Madison Avenue

in the 1950's. . THAT ought to give her the shivers...

When I was growing up, these were the allowed career paths:
1)wife & mother
2)secretary (with an eye to "catching" the boss)
3)teacher
3)nurse
4)switchboard operator

I'm having a hard time thinking of any others....

[Skidmore]

Maid...you forgot maid.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

13. Interior decorator (my mom was one), receptionist, hostess, waitress,

hairdresser and seamstress.

BTW... Mad Men is a Great Show and it makes me cringe!!!!!

[Whisp]

15. I've only seen a few clips here and there of Mad Men

I don't think my heart and head could stand watching a whole show. but I really don't know it's intention.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

19. As to its intention...I think it is supposed to work on multiple levels.

For all of us boomers (I'm 55) who are white middle class, it takes you on a trip back into the past and I am not talking about The Cleaver household. The time is 1960 and you know that because Kennedy is running against Nixon. The protagonist, Don Draper is an executive in a Madison Avenue advertising firm. Within those offices you see how they carefully crafted their advertising strategies in order to sell products. Most of these strategies are probably passe today considering technology but this was also probably the jump start to creating the consumer nation we are today. Last week's episode had this subplot. They are working on Nixon's campaign and come up with an idea..they are also working for a laxative company. In order to deny Kennedy radio air time in certain states, they buy up loads of blocks of ad space for the laxative company leaving none for Kennedy.

Within that ad firm you have all of the layers of workers, from the execs down to the switchboard operators and you're shown a glimpse of them all. The sexist attitudes really threw me for a loop. The women workers are prey for the men, most of them quite willing to be preyed upon.

You are also invited to see Don Draper's personal life. He lives in a suburb of NYC (I grew up in one too and now live about 30 minutes from where he is supposed to live). You get to know his wife, children, neighbors and that is so artfully drawn too. His family is not my family but I recognize them as the people across the street, or perhaps my neighbors next door. I've been in his home and can almost smell it. He loves his wife, cheats on her consistently, supports her on one level and keeps her as a child on another. When she goes to a psychotherapist, he calls the therapist after her sessions asking about what transpired, and the therapist is all to happy to share with him.
Meanwhile, all women that Don has affairs with are independent women.

The show is created, produced and written by Michael Weiner who was an executive producer and writer for The Sopranos. Being a Soprano fan myself, enough said.

[Whisp]

20. thanks. I may give it a try for nostalgic reasons.

but it irks me a bit that there may be many male dinosaurs and their offspring that miss those good ole days. Can't help thinking it's a paving stone of some sort - But, I have not watched it, as I said. just knee jerk reaction here.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

22. I don't know if you have cable, but if you do, it's available free on demand. I just

checked the site and here are the companies that carry it. This way you can start at the beginning. If not, it's on tonight at 10PM ET on AMC. I hope you get something out of it.

On Comcast: Check the TV Entertainment section, under AMC.
On Time Warner: Check under Entertainment On Demand, then under AMC Mad Men, and also in select markets under the HD Showcase.
On Mediacom: Check under FREE PASS, then AMC.
On Rogers: Check under TV Entertainment.
On Insight: Check under The FREE SPOT.
On Cox: Check under Cable TV Showcase, then AMC.
On Cablevision: Check under TV encores, then AMC.
On Charter, Check under the "I want More" category, under Entertainment, then AMC

[Whisp]

23. yes, it's in my guide. tonite. thanks! nt

[Iris]

33. me either.

I felt like the writers were kind of enjoying depicting the way women had to squirm through life.

[uppityperson]

17. Stewardess (only until you hook a rich man though)

[MountainLaurel]

28. Nun

A friend of mine's aunt became a nun because it was one of the only ways she could get a college education.

[Missy M]

9. That young woman enjoys the results.....

of the rights feminists fought for. She is able to vote, she has the right of choice (although this seems like it will be an ongoing battle). She can now get credit in her own name versus having daddy or hubby co-sign, we fight for equal pay for equal work, breaking the glass ceiling in business and much more. Had these issues not been championed by the feminists she would be living in a far different society right now. Some of these young women make me angry on this issue because I helped fight for them and I'm disappointed they feel that way. I have come across this many times.

[sinkingfeeling]

10. She's not the only young woman who has never learned about the struggles of her

fore mothers. This generation takes women's sports, the ability to own a house, credit card eligibility, voting rights, choice, and many other things for granted. I can recall having to have my father cosign my first mortgage because it was so rare for a young, single woman to buy a house. I had to give up my department store credit card when I got married and get a new one in my husband's name.

It was the feminist movement of the early '70s that brought about more equal pay for equal work. Tell her the stories and then that "A feminist is someone who thinks a woman is a person to."

Definition of feminist:

1. a doctrine advocating social, political, and economic rights for women equal to those of men.
2. a movement for the attainment of such rights.
3. feminine character.

Then ask her what it is that she really opposes.

[redqueen]

11. I've had those discussions...

I usually get responses like "but we have more power now, so it's silly"

Mindless...

[midlife_mo_Jo]

41. Very good

If only all young women knew what the definition really meant.

In some ways, it's good, because they take for granted what others had to fight for. In many ways, that's a good thing. However, with the fascists running this country, they need to be educated - and educated about more than just feminism!

[ljm2002]

14. Amazing isn't it...

...how soon they forget.

And yes about remembering the more restricted roles we had. When I entered the job force, the Help Wanted ads were sex-segregated, and you wouldn't find the good positions over on the "Women Wanted" side of that divide. Also as to educational opportunity, I remember my mom driving my brother halfway across the state to enroll him in college after he graduated. But she did not do the same for me. The thing that made it really galling, was that my brother, two years older than me, graduated the same year I did. That's because he flunked a grade (laziness, not stupidity), while I skipped a grade. But it did not even occur to her that I should go to college -- not because she was a bad person, but because that's just how things were back then, especially in low income families without a history of college. I did eventually go to college, 6 years later, all on my own and worked my way through with a combination of grants, loans and work-study. And I was glad of the opportunities that were afforded to me as a woman, that would not have happened even 20 years before that, and all because of the women's movement and "angry feminists".

Really it is another meme that the rabid right wing was successful in promoting, the "angry feminist". It is very ingrained. It is very sad.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. Some younger women take those rights for granted . The rights have always been there

for them...since they were born (though, one would think their mothers would have explained it). My SON would never DARE say something like what that young lady said. Never.

They have no clue what it use to be like and I think, if they did, they would be singing a different tune about Hillary and "feminism" and "angry women." Let them watch just one friend die from a back alley abortion and they'll see just how angry they can be. Just like the repukes have made "Liberal" a dirty word, they have tried to make "feminism" a dirty word..."feminazis"...remember that one?

I haven't run into any women like this and they are lucky I haven't.:)

[kdmorris]

18. It's true

I'm 38 and I still remember a time when women were fired for getting pregnant. I learned my history, about the suffering of women to allow future generations of us the right to vote, about the fight for equal rights, equal pay, the ability to get an abortion and even to use birth control.

And still, women of my generation, who don't "do history" just don't get it. They take it for granted now, but they don't even know WHY we have the rights we do (which are STILL not equal. We're up to making about 81 cents on the dollar, though). They watch TV and buy into the bullshit that CNN and Fox News spout about feminists. They don't even know their own history. And the women's rights movement is just a couple of pages in the history books. We learn about the Suffrage movement but not necessarily the more recent history of women saying "ENOUGH!! YOU CAN'T TREAT US LIKE THAT!". It gets disheartening some days.

On that note, I WISH Hillary was an angry feminist. I would jump on that bandwagon faster than a rich man buys up stocks. But she's not. She's a corporatist and a politician can only serve one master. Or, at least, will serve the master that pays them the most. THAT'S why I can't get behind Hillary.

[renie408]

21. I intensely dislike the focus on Hillary's gender.

As a woman, it really bothers me that so much of the focus on Hillary is there because of her gender. Nobody talks about a man's gender influencing his opinions and views when it most certainly has to and not necessarily for the better.

I am angry. I happen to be a woman.

[HardRocker2005]

24. sadly, that attitude is as old as the women's rights movement itself. susan b. anthony, near the end

of her life, complained bitterly about the younger women ("remonstrants")who had no clue of where women had come from and what it had taken to get there, and who were of the belief that "women had quite enough rights." (this was around the turn of the 20th century, when women didn't even have the right to vote yet). frankly, i think these women have bought into the propaganda of the antis, i.e., women who want equal rights are angry man-haters. either that or they are cynically using this perception to ingratiate themselves with anti-women's rights men, i.e., "oh don't worry honey, i'm not one of theeemm; i know who wears the pants in a family."

[Tsiyu]

25. Oh yes

I have encountered this mentality.

I wonder why so many mothers and fathers have failed to teach their daughters and sons about the past. Many young people have no clue how repressive society was for women even in my lifetime.

I had to wear freaking dresses to school - in Upstate cold-as-the-Antarctic NY , cover my head with a doily in church, give up on sports when my family moved to Georgia (where ALL the athletic money went to boys'futt-bawlll programs) was fired from a job for being pregnant...I could go on and on.

It's my ace in the hole when arguing with young women. I tell them they are welcome to give up all of their rights. THEY can fight to get them back from here on out. It shuts them up real fast and most actually look ashamed. Like they're thinking.

Like they suddenly realize what and who they've been taking for granted.

[Skidmore]

26. Self-kick because it's too soon for this thread to have died.

I guess I'm looking to see a feminist movement similar to the one in the 70s. I don't see anything like it today, although it is still needed.

[JNelson6563]

27. This is actually timeless and sexless

All people, no matter what age they live or their gender, take for granted what they have always known.

This mindset is unfortunate but not surprising.

Julie

[Solly Mack]

29. they've only known the hard won gains so they think equality has been achieved

certain things are now a given for them....and while this is what our mothers fought for...the struggle NEVER ends. And that is what many young women fail to understand...

and by falling for the lie...and it is a lie intended to marginalize women...that feminists are angry and bitter and never satisfied(all delivered with intentional negative connotations), some young women are aiding in the backward slide.

Yeah..I'm angry...but with good reason
Yeah..at times I am bitter...but look the constant attacks on my person-hood
and yeah...I never will be satisfied with anything less than full equality..and why should I be?

[treestar]

30. Women are the one group where you still have members of the

group who are all for the repression. Wasn't Ann Coulter or one of those moranettes saying women shouldn't even vote?

Phyllis Schafly is a lawyer but when it comes to other women, well, they should just marry lawyers and stay at home. Women like that think they are exceptional and that other women should be limited.

Then you have all the fundies.

Yet it is interesting to see that the default position of the young women is too take it all for granted. Maybe the righties are losing on this question, over all.

[yardwork]

36. I am appalled by the number of women who say "I'm not a feminist, but..."

When did FEMINIST become a dirty word?

Everytime I hear a woman say "I'm not a feminist but..." I speak up. "I'm a feminist," I say, "why aren't you?"

[Rosemary2205]

37. IMHO this is human nature.

humans have a general tendency to value what they have to fight hard for and take for granted what was handed to them.

[BlooInBloo]

38. DU should be fine with this. Nobody hates Clinton more than DUers.

[Ilsa]

39. I was attending a pro-choice rally in Dallas and Lee Remick was there

talking about how they had to pass the hat around in her dorm room to gather money for one of their sisters to fly to a state in which abortions were legal. There were definitely women at the rally that were too young to remember those days. I was a young teenager when Roe was decided. One of the older women with me said that she couldn't believe that she and her age group were still having to fight this battle. This was in 1991 or 1992.

One o f the stupidist things I'e read recently was a musing from a twenty-something that maybe reversal of Roe would mean less promiscuity. Definitely too young to remember.

Of course, abortion rights is only one issue. There are so many more involved in this discussion.