The GOP is pleased.

[WilliamPitt]

Froomkin:

But how did a newspaper advertisement, of all things, become such a hot topic in the political discourse about the war? The answer: Republicans in Washington see it as a winning issue.

That's the case even though there were legitimate concerns expressed about Petraeus's selective use of statistics both before and after his testimony; even though a Washington Post poll before his testimony showed most Americans expected him to try to make things look better than they are; and even though the newest polls clearly show the public didn't buy what Petraeus was selling.

Here's two fantasy follow-up questions for Bush: If you make a general your political standard-bearer, don't your political enemies get to take aim? And is it possible Democrats were reserving their outrage for issues other than a political ad?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html?hpid=topnews

The Democrats stood up for the troops and for Habeas just yesterday...and DU pretty much shrugged.

A symbolic bullshit vote, however, is doomsday.

Way to take the bait, folks.

A lot of you really confuse me sometimes.

:(

[The Stranger]

1. Then why did the Democratic leadership give them this "symbolic" vote?

What changed in 24 hours to make them crater yet again? If anything, they should be mad as fucking hell about yesterday and fight this attack on their base today?

[WilliamPitt]

5. Because it doesn't fucking matter.

And it helps MoveOn.

And it doesn't fucking matter.

[The Stranger]

9. But it does fucking matter.

It does fucking matter. Look around you. It does fucking matter.

[WilliamPitt]

15. Oy.

Never mind.

[Inuca]

19. No, it does not.

Or barely. A symbolic attempt to discredit the dems, that was effectively countered by Boxer and Durbin. Some wasted time in the Senate. End of story. Or at least it should be.

[The Stranger]

57. They keep joining the Republicans in attacking their own base.

If this bullshit about "taking the bait" applies at all, it is to those who should be leading the party.

[mark414]

36. and will pitt's point is proven once again

[FiveGoodMen]

51. It matters because the public sees the Dems as admitting their side is wrong.

And they remember.

Just like every time a Dem has criticized Bush and then apologized for it.

The public sees the Dems as weak (at least) and probably just wrong (because they keep taking things back) and Dem credibility goes to zero.

It matters.

[shanti]

59. what "public"?

oh, you mean the ones watching american idol... :eyes: the "public" doesn't give a shit.

[FiveGoodMen]

60. So who is it that votes in them thar "elections"?

[ClassWarrior]

13. It's funny... When the Dems support symbolic votes and not substantive ones...

...DUers kvetch. And when the Dems support substansive votes and not symbolic ones, DUers kvetch.

B-)

I too would have liked the Dems to go on the record for MoveOn and the grassroots it represents, but I'd rather have it this way than vice versa.

NGU.

[FiveGoodMen]

52. How about: they should vote well in every case? Or is that 'off the table'?

[ClassWarrior]

61. My observation is about DUers, not Congresspeople. Or is that...

...too complicated to understand?

:eyes:

Lighten up, little man.

NGU.

[FiveGoodMen]

63. Did you mean to say, "TOO complicated to understand"?

[ClassWarrior]

64. Wow, you expect everybody to be perfect, don't you?

:rofl:

NGU.

[silverweb]

2. Agreed.

Some of us still haven't learned to keep our eye on the ball.

[rockymountaindem]

3. As usual, it's style over substance around here n/t

[iconoclastic cat]

12. That's simply not true.

If anything, DUers are chronically style-impaired. I think this is a straw-breaking-the-camel's-back situation.

[rockymountaindem]

25. If this is a camel's back situation

then there are about two of those every month.

[spanone]

16. the World is style over substance

[Beetwasher]

4. Actually, I'm Not Confused, Not At All

Troll bait is troll bait.

If anyone stopped for even a second to think about it, they'd realize that this is EXACTLY what Moveon would have wanted. They couldn't ask for a better overreaction from the idiot Repubs.

[iconoclastic cat]

6. Will, I have to disagree with you on this one.

This would have been an easy symbolic middle finger to the Republicans.

[malaise]

7. A very important point

but you'd expect Dems to stand up for free speech.

[DURHAM D]

17. Have you read the non-binding resolution? n/t

[malaise]

58. I just read it

Still we have bigger fish to fry.

[Mythsaje]

8. Did the Habeus Corpus bill PASS, Will?

No. And why not? Because the Repugs blocked it. Effectively. Again. When our Congressional Dems couldn't block a goddamn thing when they were in the minority.

Yeah, the MoveOn thing is mostly symbolic. But, on the other hand, what does it symbolize? The same free speech that allows Limbaugh, Coulter, Malkin, Hannity, Savage, Medved, and OTHERS to spew their vile crap day in and day out? Where's the condemnation for what THEY say all the time? Why wasn't THAT mentioned in the debate? If they get a pass, so should MoveOn. Otherwise DON'T WASTE OUR TIME AND MONEY ON THE SUBJECT AT ALL.

That's why I'M pissed about it.

[stranger81]

22. EXACTLY. We didn't win that round, because our

leadership rolled over AGAIN at the threat of a filibuster, without even requiring the jackasses to waste their breath on CSPAN for a while. . . .

[LSK]

27. actually they did block ANWR drilling

And the GOP has a bigger advantage last term than we do now.

[Mythsaje]

38. Well, yeah...THAT they managed.

I'm just wondering where the strategic and tactical minds are in the Dem party these days.

[Inuca]

10. Part of the answer (unfortunately)

issues that can be described in a very short sentence are easier to get all up in arms about than those that require several long sentences to summarize.

And I agree, many of the threads here in these last couple of days (I include the often insane taser threads) have been difficult to comprehend and very demoralizing.

[L. Coyote]

11. I hope everyone is enjoying their wedgie. Lots more to come before 2008!

This is like kids on a playground. Some ignorant bully sneaks up behind someone on your team and gives him a huge wedgie.

You have a choice. Do you confront the bully from the other team or do you go after the kid who got the wedgie?

OR, do you get on with kicking the other team's *** and winning the game, knowing they were just pulling a psy-op?

[Kolesar]

14. This just puts the question of "who betrayed us" in the public's mind

...and gives www.Moveon.org some free publicity. I'd score this as a hit.

[ClassWarrior]

18. True. Any publicity IS good publicity.

NGU.

[Skidmore]

20. Will, I sure hope that the outrage powder is so dry by now that

they gag on it. I'm sick of the excuses of inaction and silence. It's not just now that people are objecting to, but years of the same kind of tone deaf ineptness that has gotten the nation to this point. Conceding ground and not recognizing when score the point. Then coming out and sanctimoniously chalking every concession to have been in "a bipartisan way." People are suffering and dying while the freaking keep the powder dry. Most of the nation will not remember the votes of yesterday, but they will remember the vote of today. Pubbies blew up a powderkeg...Dems are saving their kegs for....

I have no idea, but at least the powder is dry.

[liberalmuse]

21. Who shrugged?

Most of us just can't keep up with all the shit that's going on.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

23. The GOP is pleased that 23 Democrats voted with them.

We didn't take the bait - the corrupt politicians did.

[LSK]

24. what does this have to do with tasers?

:sarcasm:

[Hydra]

26. This was a bad move on the Dems part

If you choose to see it otherwise, feel free. This is the message it conveys, though:

"We don't have the votes to do the important things, but when the Repubs want something, we're happy to help them."

Congress should be making the Repubs as small and useless as possible, and frame them as obstructionists, just as Delay and Rove did for so many years.

This also wasn't a small issue, because it gives credibility to Patraeus' report, which is certainly not in their interest.

Flubbed or thrown? I leave that to you.

[Neecy]

53. bingo.

"We don't have the votes to do the important things, but when the Repubs want something, we're happy to help them."

This is symbolic because it's telling the activist wing of the party to remain silent, submissive, passive, and don't dare add to the debate. Don't dare question another one of Bush's liars.

Gee, one of the only things that's passed this goddamn Senate and it's a slap in the face to the Democratic base. And we're all supposed to shrug this off? Sorry, but I for one am offended.

[BostonMa]

28. You are our guru, Sir. As usual, put into perfect perspective.

Well said! :thumbsup:

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[progressoid]

30. I'm only posting in taser threads so I can't comment.

[pampango]

44. Me, too, but I'm waiting for the Circuit City threads to come back. n/t

[Robbien]

31. Bull, the DLC/BlueDogs are estastic

Once again they prove to the dumb Dems that this "moderate" stance of theirs rules. Standing firm with the GOP against the Democratic Party is their badge of honor.

[Bluebear]

37. You said it. nt

[Individualist]

43. as are their defenders

who continually go to any lengths to defend them, regardless of what they do.

[Zodiak]

32. Yesterday, we were proud because there was party unity.

We did not "ho hum".......we went "oh well, at least we were united" and called it a real partial victory.

You are putting words into DU's collective mouth.

And if you didn't notice...that symbolic vote was against 2 million of their own supporters and it gave Bush and the DLC the ammo needed to marginalize the left even further (just as we barely get on the radar screen). We were betrayed.

But you are trying to reframe this as us "taking the bait"....as if being slapped in the face by our own party doesn't hurt one bit.

We saw one day of unity yesterday to punctuate six years of complicity. Half of the Dems go right back to hating on the left the very next day and it is OUR fault?

Needless to say, I disagree with your characterization of DU's response, your attempts to spin this earlier as some sort of victory, and your lecturing the rest of us like we are Bushite enablers ourselves.

[Blue_Roses]

33. the voice of reason in a world gone mad

:thumbsup:

[ljm2002]

34. Okay, let me explain myself...

...I'll start by relating a conversation I had with my son last night. We (well, he mostly) were watching a mixed-martial-arts fight, and he was explaining to me that his favorite guy (call him Fighter A) was better at grappling on the ground that the boxing and kick-boxing part. But when the other guy (call him Fighter B) tried to take him down, he fought it tooth and nail -- even though he was at a disadvantage standing up, and is dominant on the ground.

Fighter A won that fight, and my son and I were discussing his tactics. We both agreed that one of the things you do in a fight, is you NEVER just LET the other guy take you down. You make them fight for it. You fight them standing up and you fight them sitting down and you do not give any quarter. That is how you prevail.

Our guys and gals do not seem to get that. They compromise with an evil cabal who have long since shown nothing but contempt for those who would agree to compromise with them -- because they know that their OWN goal is to destroy the opposition.

Fight fire with fire -- we need to destroy the opposition party, or help them destroy themselves.

You know, symbolic votes count too. Had the Senate voted for Boxer's amendment instead, or even along with this one, I'd not be as furious as I am.

On the other hand, if DU posts are any indication, this may serve to Moveon's $$ advantage. "It's an ill wind..." and all that.

[Gold Metal Flake]

35. There are fish mongers on DU selling bait.

Perhaps some of what we see is mongers selling to mongers in order to stir interest in old, moldy fish.

[Marrah_G]

39. Gonna say something mean here....

... but not about you.

Our country and DU itself seriously lack a civic education. People yell from the gut without using reason or logic, they require ideological purity tests, they state "absolute facts" without verification. They have no idea what the end game is or how to get there.

They live in a fantasyland where all the world is beautiful and fair, there is no ugliness except the evil Bush Monster, cops and of course congress. A world where only this second matters, not the past 20 years....

It's sad. Since the school don't teach it, I teach my own children.

I wish there was a reality based civics test you had to pass before posting here. It sure would clean up my ignore list.

[Mythsaje]

42. And you're implying what?

The question here is free speech. The same free speech that allows people like Limbaugh, Coulter, and their ilk to spew whatever sewage happens to strike their fancy at any given time. As long as no steps are taken to condemn THEM, a condemnation of MoveOn should never have found its way to the floor.

Period.

[Hydra]

48. Ah...

I was wondering when I was going to hear someone apologizing for bad behavior with "it's a deep strategy in play."

Care to share any great or even minor victories that lead to this grand endgame where this is to our benefit?

[DURHAM D]

50. I agree with everything you said.

Teach your children well as they will need to teach their peer group.

That test thing is a really good idea. The Me Machines around here drive me up a wall. I have spent more and more time elsewhere looking for adults to talk with.

[bluethruandthru]

40. Do the repubs ever cross the aisle and vote for something

the Dems want? Even something symbolic?

How about a symbolic vote to censure the president?

[WilliamPitt]

41. Ah, yes.

The habeas vote yesterday.

Go read about it before reaching conclusions.

[reality based]

45. In politics symbolism matters. It influences voters.

The Republicans are trying to push back with one of the few strong points they think they have right now. But I think they are miscalculating-- as they did on Schiavo. Remember that? It was an eye opener to a lot of people. Some suggested that we were wrong to make a big deal out of that and urged us to refocus on other things that mattered more. The truth on Iraq and the lies that put us there and keep us there are becoming apparent to the public. Those who knowingly perpetuated those lies are being clearly shown to have betrayed us. The Republicans are on the verge of losing one of their favorite lines of attack-- questioning our patriotism, dedication to the national interest, and support for the troops. In fact with the Plame outing, among other things, they are having it thrown back at them. This is no time to get wobbly.

[mmonk]

46. I actually have felt good about the dems in the Senate lately.

That's saying something for me. Especially the restoration attempt of habeas corpus vote.

[Kazak]

47. Hell, I confuse myself most of the time...

:shrug:

[underpants]

49. DU didn't shrug and as far as Froomkin goes he is just reporting what they are saying

and they are so consistantly wrong that they can say all they want as far as I am concerned. Froomkin is a great read but I wouldn't sweat this much. Nothing is going to change the fact that this is Bush's war and the rest of this looks as cheap as it is AND the public sees that.

[truebrit71]

54. Ever heard of the last straw?

Guess not...

The winners in this case? MoveOn.org by a country mile...

The losers?

Weak, spineless Dems

Again.

Nice dry powder you have though....

(Btw...if this largely symbolic vote was allowed to come up today, why not have a largely symbolic vote of no confidence in Lt Awol?)

[WilliamPitt]

55. Around here?

Every day.

Makes the word "last" meaningless...over and over and over again.

[LoZoccolo]

56. For people whose sole means of changing their world is expressing outrage...

...every straw is the last!

[ClassWarrior]

62. Beautiful - albeit snarky - observation.

B-)

NGU.

[BlooInBloo]

65. DUers also don't give a rat's ass about the subprime bill that got introduced today...

... Aimed specifically at helping the homeowners, rather than the noteholders.

Ah well, you go into an election with the electorate you have, and not the electorate you wish you had.