DUers--how many here believe that we've been set-up?

[hyphenate]

By the "other" side, I mean. That there are many more trolls and freepers here than we can guess, and that a lot of the divisiveness that's running roughshod at DU is caused by people who have more than enough posts to be believable, but who don't really hold our values?

It's been something I've thought about for awhile, dating back to some of those who gave themselves away after the 2004 election. What wouldn't they do to make us look like extremists? Giving up a little time and a lot of little posts, they could very well sound real, without any suspicion falling on them.

Anyway, I've gotten tired of the negativity that's here, and the times when all we're doing is bitterly arguing about the same fucking things over and over again, and flaming each other, and we can't and don't concentrate on the things we should be. Once upon a time, we found common causes and things which brought us together. How did that change without our being conscious of it? Too many times, it's felt like there was this virus of discontentment just growing without any clear cause, leaving only maliciousness behind.

While we all have our own opinions here, we used to be more tolerant of those opinions. It was a "gentleperson's disagreement" and not an outright baiting of each other.

Anyhow, I think it's important to discuss this, and I would love to see us once again work together instead of apart and dueling with words and attitudes.

The whole point at the beginning of DU was that we all perceived that the 2000 election was fraudulent and that the opposing party had used undue influence and corruption to "win" that election. Well shit, guys, that hasn't changed! They did it again in 2004, and there is enough evidence of that to fill SCOTUS for a century! On the other hand, we can't do anything about it!!! It's done, it's over with--NO, NOT time to "move-on!" No--it's time to change the laws of the country, be as active as we can be in the political system, and come together again instead of battling each other here at DU. It's time to remember who we are--our party, our whole attitude toward life, liberty, and the pursuit of--if not happiness, then at least contentment for everyone.

Yeah, yeah, a little melodramatic, but that's just how I am. :)

[valerief]

1. Duh. nt

[Macchendra]

2. The "Opposing Party" Has Subverted Our Party, not DU

peace!

[seriousstan]

3. All your base are belong to us...hTe ROVE!!!!!!!1111

:tinfoilhat:

[ima_sinnic]

4. lots & lots of DLCers coming up w lots & lots of BS here

I think the poseurs are very very numerous.

[brentspeak]

5. Besides the existence of concern trolls, one thing is for certain, in re. to genuine posters:

There's no excuse for the amount or ferocious Democratic-bashing that goes on these boards. Constructive criticism of Democrats is often ignored in favor of rampant, unending knee-jerk slamming. It is a phenomenon that seems to be a permanent part of the website.

Case in point: the vile and disgusting attacks on John Kerry that began the other day, re. the doofus college student's encounter with the University of Florida campus police.

[Cleita]

6. There are trolls (easy to spot) and

professional operatives, whose job it is to plant disinformation in venues like this, or LsTTE, or even articles in MS publications and newspapers, not as easy to spot. But you will start detecting a certain pattern of talking points meant to dissuade your POV while appearing to be friendly. Then you have spotted the other animal, the professional operative. We have those too and some of them have been here a long time. Since I have been here since the year DU was founded in 2001, I have noticed some long term DUers who only seem to appear for special flame wars. I'm really amazed that no one has started a pro-life, anti-abortion thread yet. Those operatives have been laying low since election 2006, but they will resurface before the election like the proverbial phoenix. Wait and see.

[terminal_concept]

20. call me paranoid

But I'm being followed around the web. The last couple weeks my computer has been attacked twice.

I've heard people say you should use tor or a proxy but I'm not breaking any law and I have a right to free speech. I can only believe that these things could be pulled off by the government.

To answer your question the whole web is crawling with proffessional opperatives ,especially DU.

All because I talk a little politics? Why don't they go after the obvious coup to everthrow our democracy.

[Cleita]

28. They are part of the coup to overthrow our democracy.n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

21. You won't get an overt anti-choice thread. You'll get a "we need to woo the values voters" thread.

With the gist being that we really ought to abandon our commitment to reproductive choice/gay rights/separation of church & state/etc.

Those were springing up like fucking mushrooms, for a while.

[Cleita]

27. They are becoming more subtle but the same crop of

operatives still pop up on them miraculously.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. I can think of a few very select posters who post some very select bs threads

I'm always real hesitant to classify anyone as a t**** or a f******* or a d********, even in my own head...

obviously the chap who came in last week with 12 posts and is griping about Hillary's socialized medicine or spouting leviticus in the gay marriage threads, that's a no brainer..

and there are long time DU'ers I chronically disagree with on a lot of things, but most of them I assume are sincere and for real (if misguided, heh heh)

but I can think of a handful of specific rather active names that show up with persistent regularity starting threads that hold no other ideological consistency other than they invariably piss huge numbers of people off.

They shall, of course, remain nameless. ;-)

[Cleita]

30. Yep, but there are also those who don't post to piss off

but to disinform. They are also very selective in their subject matter sticking to only one, like for instance Social Security and nothing else. Or others will be pro-life and nothing else. Even the most cantankerous poster, who is sincere, usually posts on a variety of subjects not just one narrow one, with one narrow ideology. So those are the ones, who will also remain nameless, that I am speaking of. Of course, they know who they are.

[Vilis Veritas]

7. Blogs are not a controlled debate.

You get the best, worst and all the stuff in between.

A major problem is that when you walk into anything with EXPECTATIONS, you are setting yourself up for dissapointment.

I expect DU to make me crazy on a daily basis. That is why I seldom read all the threads to an OP. The OP is the subject. Most times DU'ers get tied up in the threads and forget the OP.

No Fear.

[lumberjack_jeff]

8. "See? You think we're arguin' while I think we're finally communicating!"

[prolesunited]

9. I think Skinner is the ringleader

Look at how much time he is forcing us to waste. And then we're paying him for it. The bastid!

[L. Coyote]

10. Hillary has been set up. Not DU, DU is just a leftist activist forum.

Of course, there is disruption here, to bash Dems, to urge people to quit the party, to quit contributing,
to drive people away, to diminish site rank, to frustrate, to control the tone, to swamp out good posts, etc.

But who got set up? The Senators, and in particular, the likely candidates.
Why even Bush was in on this one today, with his presser mentioning Move On.

DU is a threat in its own way, by spreading info, but the Move On thing is not about DU.
Here, it's the 'OJ of the Day' keeping us out of focus, served up by the usual blemmings.

[Macchendra]

14. Paranoia like this shuts the ears of those who need to listen.

Communication is healthy. It is the misreading of intent that will tear us apart.

[brentspeak]

18. Paranoia? Trolls have been exposed constantly on DU

I've got several folders on my hard drive with snapshots of disruptive posts made by people who were later tombstoned. Sometimes, those same tombstoned posters would boast of their DU "exploits" on other websites.

[L. Coyote]

25. We need a Troll Alert button next to the Alert button, there are so many.

But Ignore is supreme. You never see their names again, or anything they say.

[L. Coyote]

24. Welcome to my Ignore list

[zeemike]

11. Other...Lets just chill out

Yes there may be freepers here trying to stir up some shit but we are bigger than that and don't have to take any of it to heart.
When the name calling starts is the time to state your opinions and move on and hold no grudges.

[DS1]

12. I think that's a cop-out

the level of noise in the main forums has been slowly but steadily rising, so the 'outrage' expressed in order to get attention 6 months ago is now but a pittance compared to the screaming hair-on-fire postings you see now. like noise in a restaurant, it only takes one table of loud people to bring the sound level up in all the areas.

[BlooInBloo]

16. Good analogy.

[Mojorabbit]

31. I can tell you what it is for me

I can't tell you how overjoyed I was after the 06 wins. I think my expectations were way too high. I thought we would get so much done. That things would turn around. I was euphoric.

I have crashed and burned, am on outrage overload, filled with disappointment, and need to take a break from it all. Maybe some of this disillusionment is part of what is happening to many people too and the board reflects it? I don't know but for me, this is how I feel.

[Quixote1818]

13. Strong disagreement is what separates us from those over at Freerepublic

I do think we could use a little more civility but the thing I am most proud of when it comes to being a Democrat is that are a bunch of freethinkers

[Macchendra]

15. Hear hear (sic)

Truly! How fast do you get Zotted over there when they realize that you are only posting pot legalization, privacy, and anti-secrecy issues.

[DS1]

32. why the (sic) ?

Hear hear is correct, and it's nice to actually someone not write "here here"

[Macchendra]

33. Haha

You're right!

[TahitiNut]

17. Well, it IS football season.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. "we used to be more tolerant of those opinions"... we did? You were here in 2004, right?

If memory serves, it was a fucking MESS, for a while.

It's primary season. I saw this coming a long way off. Certainly there are trolls and disruptors, maybe moreso now that we have assorted weird sites devoted to this place, and attendant groups of "stalkers" of various ideological persuasions with nothing better to do than monitor DU and shout like phantoms at people they can't come in and argue with here.

But I think the vast majority of it is normal primary season shit-flinging, combined with certainly a measure of disappointment with (some of) the Democrats in congress, combined with frustration at this idiotic war which will seemingly NEVER end, combined with a few small but very vocal groups of single-issue axe grinders, combined with the fact that there truly IS a range of opinion on many things here, combined with some mixture of all of the above.

Lotta people are pissed off, that's for sure. I don't know if that means they're disruptors.. more likely, to my mind, they're just pissed off Democrats.

[havocmom]

22. Won't vote in your poll, but will offer that many posters on my list

of freeping mole suspects have sure been busy here of late. ;)

[WorseBeforeBetter]

23. The tenor is definitely different than when I first joined...

but it's pretty easy to detect any obvious baiting (and when in doubt, "Search"). To say we have been "set-up" would suggest that "they" are successful, which they are not (they're not that clever, despite their best efforts). One can choose to ignore, or take the bait and have a little fun. You gotta admit, the transparency of some of the posts is downright hilarious, and Whack-a-Troll has united me with more than a few DUers. DU has changed since word got out, but enh, don't give Tom DeLay and his goons the satisfaction...

There is a very clear cause for our discontentment: We're desperate for the 7-year nightmare of immorality, corruption, incompetence, and greed to end. And thoughts of the nightmare not actually ending in January 2009 are enough to cause anyone to lash out (call me tin foil, but "state of emergency" and no elections would not surprise me in the least...). I think I've reached the point of believing revolution to be the only solution, so I'm a bit beyond "gentleperson's disagreement." Although, I do try to be polite ... goddammit! ;-)

[Blashyrkh]

26. Having watched this website develop since 2000...

I can tell you the growing dissent you describe is more likely to be caused by a disconnect between people's membership of this website and that of the Democratic Party.

This site has always been pro-Democratic. However, over the past 6 years Democrats have seen their party fold time and time again, backing down on issues that were considered beyond important.

In the same 6 years DU has become a community providing not only news, information and analysis, but real support for people and a place to vent when the world seems a little too crazy.

I think some people find it hard adjust to maintaining a membership at a website that requires them to support a party they feel betrayed by.

A neutral Liberal Underground, designed to promote liberal and progressive ideals without being affiliated to a party seems a more sensible idea and would allow a group of posters here the freedom to speak their mind with the thought police reminding them of the "rules".