If they want to force a woman to have an ultrasound before an abortion

[Horse with no Name]

Then they ought to force potential military recruits watch soldiers get blown to bits so that THEY too can make an informed consent!

[babylonsister]

1. I missed something. Who's 'they' and what would be the point? nt

[smokey nj]

3. Sam "Frozen embryos talk to me" Brownback.

[Horse with no Name]

4. I'm sorry sister

Brownback has legislation that would force women to watch an ultrasound of a fetus before an abortion so that she can see the life she is "killing".
If "killing" is the issue--then we need informed consent EVERYWHERE people are going to be "killed"...starting with soldiers on the battlefield.

[babylonsister]

7. That's pathetic. Furthermore, who'd pay for that ultrasound? Most

people get abortions because of financial and insurance (or lack of) problems.

[Fridays Child]

15. Careful, Sam. Forced ultrasounds and forced childbirth smell like socialized medicine.

A perfect example of how conservatives have no problem holding conflicting views, as discussed in an interesting thread, earlier today: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1868902

[crikkett]

28. but it's okay because it's being forced upon women

[SoCalDem]

20. Sounds like a "big-gubbmint program" to me, Sam..

These repube wackos are sure mighty interested in the 'girlie-bits' aren't they?

[colinmom71]

22. Actually, a lot of clinics now perform ultrasounds...

on all pregnancies scheduled to be terminated. This is done to confirm the gestational age of the fetus and to make sure the proper abortion technique is being used in order to reduce the possibility of complications for the pregnant woman.

From what I understand, there's no separate charge for the ultrasound for this purpose, and the clinic does not involve the patient in the ultrasound unless the patient asks to see it herself. Frankly, the idea of making the woman look at the ultrasound is just ludicrous. What are they going to do? Pin her eyes open to keep her from averting her gaze? But then I guess we women are just so stupid that we can't possibly know that pregnancy results in a baby unless we're forced to see an ultrasound! :eyes:

[depakid]

8. Pick the fundie group or state

The anti-choice crowd has been proposing this around the country:

See, e.g. Abortion ultrasound-viewing advances in S.C.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17741934/

[cascadiance]

57. Minimally these fundie groups should PAY FOR THIS BS!

And liability for any lawsuits, etc. too!

[saracat]

2. What is this about????

[sinkingfeeling]

6. Senator Brownback has introduced a bill that would require women seeking an

abortion to view ultasounds of the 'baby' before proceeding.

[Whisp]

9. includes laundry pins to keep your eyes open?

[saracat]

10. That SOB. Then I want him to be made to see what all his sperm might grow up to be before he

masterbates or has sex with his wife if she is no longer having babies. He is slime.

[Whisp]

11. ahah! I was thinking that

but you said it better.

or he should be forced to look at his own brain scan and do the find the peanut game.

[Whisp]

5. have no idea what this is about, but I agree with you! nt

[Lars39]

12. The fundies are gearing up to handle this new ultrasound requiremen

[bellasgrams]

13. I think it's a good idea.

I don't think abortions should be illegal but I do think women should be counseled more. My daughter-in-law had an abortion 12 yrs ago (long before she met my son). She would love to have a baby but can't get preg., she doesn't like family get togethers because everyone else has a baby. It has left her emotionily scarred. So if an ultrasound would save a few babies, good.
I also think a women can make 1 or even 2 mistakes but after the 2nd abortion then her tubes should be tied.

[Lars39]

14. How incredibly generous of you to allow a woman a few *mistakes*.

Counseling is weighing the risks, and informing the patient of possible outcomes, not pressuring someone to cancel the abortion because of the religious views of the doctor,nurses or clinic. While I feel sorry that your DIL cannot now conceive, that doesn't mean you or she gets to make the choice for any other woman.

[bellasgrams]

21. There are many women out there

that are scarred for life for having aborions. Not all women are mentally and emotionally capable to handle it. It follows some thru life. Talking to someone or watching an ultrasound might help in making an unreverseable choice. I'm not pushing religion. But all I have to do is look at the pictures of my kids, their kids, and their kids. (3 beautiful great-granddaughters, 16 mos, 20 mos, & 3 yrs.) I love them to pieces.

[Lars39]

23. So?

[colinmom71]

24. And funnily enough....

Some of us have been scarred for life (both literally and figuratively) by continuing a pregnancy and suffering severe physical complications from that. That also has followed me through my life. Should my husband's vasectomy ever fail, I have no choice but to terminate to protect my health. But it's "kind" of you to permit us one such incident before you'd put me through another painful (and potentially fraught with more complications) abdominal surgery... :eyes:

There is no one "band-aid" application that is right and appropriate for all women who find themselves inadvertently pregnant. And all the adorable pictures of children in the world aren't going to change that.

[CTyankee]

70. My daughter developed HELLP Sydrome, an extreme form of pre eclampsia, in

her pregnancy, resulting in an emergency C Section. Ending the pregnancy is the only way to stop this condition from killing the woman. Fortunately, it was late enough in the pregnancy so that her baby was nearly full term and OK.

What happened to her and what happened to you are just two examples of what many women experience with pregnancy. Health risks are 10 times as great for a woman going through a full term pregnancy than 1st trimester abortion.

[noiretextatique]

26. people face difficult decisions all the time

and most of us manage to make those decision without the "help" of religious fanatics. everyone has to live with the consequences of the choices s/he makes.

[Horse with no Name]

27. Women are not some helpless creatures

that need men to legislate their morality.
Your DIL made a choice.
Everyone should be given the same opportunity.

[burythehatchet]

34. See that's the thing about individual freedom. Your enlightened

approach still can't be imposed on others even if it's so that they can be "protected".

[Extend a Hand]

37. There are many women scarred for life

by carrying a pregnancy to term and then giving away their baby. I think anyone considering giving away a baby should spend a couple of months talking to birth mothers on some of the adoption news groups.

[gollygee]

42. How many women are scarred to life because they had babies they weren't ready for?

Or because they were tied for eternity to their abusive ex?

How many women are glad they had abortions?

[Iris]

44. or... how many children were scarred for life by parents who didn't want them? n/t

[JBoy]

50. Rick?

Rick Santorum? Is that you, dude?

[robinlynne]

60. And millions of people have babies who shouldn't have had them. That is irreversible.

You can always adopt a child.

[KAZ]

61. Get this POS off our board. Yeah, asshole, women are so

"emotionally" incapable. Fragile creatures, they are. I spit in your general direction.

[uppityperson]

66. If a woman is not mentally and emotionally capable of handling an abortion, are they capable of

handling a pregnancy and being a parent? or are they capable of handling a pregnancy, delivery and adopting out their baby?

Choice is about having a child when you are ready. Did you know that?

[Warren DeMontague]

69. It's not your place to make other peoples' decisions for them.

Other people may make decisions you don't like. Other people may do things you don't approve of. Other people may do things with their bodies you find offensive or bothersome or that piss you off or make you mad or that you, yourself, wouldn't do.

Too bad. The reason you're inside your head and NOT theirs is because THEY are in charge of their lives. NOT YOU. It is not YOUR place to say "you obviously don't know what you're doing when you make this decision". That's not for you to say.

People can make decisions.... but if they make a decision you don't like, obviously they're not behaving rationally- they haven't been "educated" (or re-educated?) enough and as such are by definition incapable of making their own decisions?

...How convenient.

Man, I've had it with control freaks. Everybody wants to second-guess people who make decisions they wouldn't, or decisions they don't like. Too fucking bad. Run your own life, let other people run theirs.

[PDenton]

18. ultrasound has nothing to do with the risks

It is just psychological intimidation.

I do believe people should be informed about the risks of abortions. But in a factual manner. At some point, people choose to have an abortion, and they have to live with the consequences, good or bad.

And for your own cause, has your DIL considered adoption? It is not for everybody but my aunt adopted a korean kid and he grew up OK. She's married to my uncle who is Greek, though, so they were already sort of multi-cultural. If you think about it, adoption requires alot more selflessness than just having a kid the old fashioned way- it is planned, you accept a kid that isn't your own DNA (that whole selfish gene thing), but it usually works out OK. There are support groups and books on adopting and issues related to it.

[JerseygirlCT]

63. Agreed. An ultrasound will do nothing to make the procedure

safer -- and any surgical procedure has its risks.

That's what needs to be discussed with a woman, not the medical personnel's personal opinions.

[CTyankee]

19. And how do you think women should be forced to have her tubes tied?

Dragged off in handcuffs to the local hospital?

You are suggesting that the STATE control an individual's health care, body and choices. Does that sound like America to you?

And besides, if a woman doesn't feel she can support a child, what business is it of yours?

What an amateurish post. Really, guys, you can send over better than this!

[bellasgrams]

25. If you don't want a child

prevent it the easy way, get your tubes tied. And I don't believe this 'can't afford' excuse. If you can't afford it don't 'make' it. Education is the only way to stop abortions. Changing laws won't do it. Why put yourself thru an abortion.

[OzarkDem]

36. Why do we get

all the dumb trolls? Sheesh, can't the GOP send us some smarter ones?

[ima_sinnic]

40. hee hee -- we're talking major oxymoron here!

brains and GOP trolls just do not occur together in the same sentence!

[saracat]

43. Why don't you say what you really mean? Those that can't afford to have a child or don't want one

should stop having sex.Isn't that what you mean? Why don't you do something worthwhile like contribute to Planned parenthood to get birth control for those that can't afford it or don't know about it? That way there would be fewer "mistakes" as you call them.BTW, why is it the woman's "mistake" anyway? Why don't you suggest vasectomy's instead of tube tying?

[gollygee]

53. Why put yourself through birth?

Birth isn't any walk in the park. I bet abortion is a lot easier.

[uppityperson]

67. If I didn't have an abortion I'd have been a horrible parent, been scared for life, my child also.

Just don't have sex? Right. I guess I am a slut because I had sex and ENJOYED IT!! even though I wasn't trying to make a junior uppity.

[ima_sinnic]

30. take your rw BULLSHIT talking points elsewhere, nobody believes them here

who set you up as god with a sanctimonious holier-than-thou busybody opinion about what OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD DO? It is ABSOLUTELY none of your stinking business how many abortions someone has, why they have one or more, when they have them, or how they have them. That is between a woman and her doctor.
fuck you and fuck yr fictitious "daughter." NOBODY is "emotionally scarred" 12 years after an abortion. That myth was destroyed yrs ago as just more of the same old right-wing dumbass BULLSHIT propaganda.

how about the millions of women who have died after back-alley abortions, before they were legal, eh? were they "emotionally scarred," you sanctimonious TWIT?

don't like abortion? DON"T HAVE ONE, MORON. you're one of those people who condemn women who get abortions and then whine about the extra tax burden of unwanted babies who are abandoned to the public system--ORPHANS that you could care less about, HYPOCRITE.

on edit: oh, just wanted to add, about your "daughter"--the only reason she really wants a kid is so she can "fit in" at family gatherings! she couldn't care less about a real child, she just wants to be "accepted." isn't that special? if she wasn't so self-centered, she might actually adopt one of those children whose mother was browbeaten into not getting an abortion by people like you and gave up her baby. BUT SANCTIMONIOUS BUSYBODIES NEVER TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE MISERY THEY CAUSE.

[Iris]

31. Huh? What makes you think she would have changed her mind?

I had a friend who had an abortion in college and the doctor tried the old "you might not be able to have a baby later" bit but it didn't stop her.

[tandot]

32. Why not just sterilize the men who cause women to have the abortion?

The last time I checked, it takes a sperm and an egg to create a pregnancy.

Besides that, what about women who must have an abortion because of health reasons or because there is something seriously wrong with the baby? You'd force these woman to look at a baby they wanted but can't have?

[noamnety]

33. Interesting idea

and maybe after a person has a car accident or two, we can amputate their feet.

Nothing teaches a lesson better than punitive surgery!

[Katherine Brengle]

35. I think you're a misogynist asshole.

Honestly. I find it shocking how someone can take a personal anecdote and extrapolate a far-reaching social meaning from it.

Lots of women have abortions and do not feel lifelong emotional pain because of them. And showing a distressed pregnant woman who does not want to be an ultrasound to convince her to keep her "baby" is coercion of the worst kind.

[ima_sinnic]

39. really. all they have to go on is emotional blackmail. PATHETIC!

[KAZ]

64. It's a fat fucking Freeptard, typing in their jammies, pretending

to be something which they are not. Surprise!

[gollygee]

38. Oh really? Who is going to pay for it?

1. This is largely an attempt to make abortions more expensive so it's harder for women to come up with the money. It is also an attempt to shame women. Women in crisis pregnancy situations don't need shame. They need non-judgmental love and understanding, and help with whatever decision they make.

2. Do you not think women know there is a fetus in them when they choose to have an abortion? Do you think they're stupid? What new information is the ultrasound supposed to give?

3. There is no way to predict the future. Your daughter-in-law couldn't have known she would later have problems with infertility. An ultrasound certainly wouldn't have told her that.

[Bluerthanblue]

45. i'm sorry for your daughter in law, and can understand

that this also effects you, but please consider that even if she had had an ultra sound there is no reason to think she would have changed her decision, or that she would have a child(ren) today.

Hind sight is so addictive- and often so warped.

Unless she was more than just a few months along- until the third month there isn't much to be seen-

Another thing to bear in mind is that very little is really known about the long term effects of ultrasound on either the developing fetus, or the mother- Many Md's believe that ultrasound is a useful tool when needed, but not a toy, or something to be used as if it was completely benign.

Your DIL is not alone in her suffering- many women (and men) go through hell when dealing with the inability to concieve, including those who never had an abortion. Women (especially) tend to be very critical of everything they have done/said/thought in search of an answer as to 'why' they cannot concieve,often after years of trying hard not to.

Forcing women to have ultrasounds as some kind of 'shock' tactic, or to fill them with guilt and misgivings, is not something i support- especially in a society which refuses to acknowledge any meaningful responsibility for this life once outside the womb.

If it was for the health of the woman, that's one thing- but to pressure her or make an often difficult decision even more so, then no.


peace,
blu

[PeaceNikki]

52. Get off the fence. You support choice or you don't. Suggesting a forced tubal ligation is disgusting

It just is.

[robinlynne]

59. There are thousands of babies waiting to be adopted out there. emotionally scared?

come on. If she is ready to be a mother, there are plenty of kids who need good homes.

[KAZ]

62. Fuck you all to hell, on so many levels. Sorry DU, this

asshole makes me see red.

[uppityperson]

65. And how would viewing an ultrasound have helped your daughter be not emotionally scarred?

How would it help her get pregnant now? Are you saying she is emotionally scarred from getting an abortion and because of this now can't get pregnant?

[nini]

46. Only if the father's get a testicularogram

kinda like a mammogram to make sure their sperm can be seen too since that is potential life too. :evilgrin:

[Warren DeMontague]

16. I think they ought to make men view a cartoon with little anthropomorphic sperm

before they're allowed to masturbate, too.

[11 Bravo]

17. Then just before Brownback pops a nut (assuming he can)

he needs to view video of infant children with every birth defect known to man.

[crikkett]

29. or force people in the McDonald's drive thru to see a video

(sorry my imagination isn't vivid enough to say WHAT video they should see...)

[RC]

47. I can, Let me help you out here.

Watch a cow being slaughtered. :hi:

[Crunchy Frog]

49. Factory farms. Slaughterhouses. Triple bypass surgery.

[Iris]

41. How come no one suggests pregnant women, women trying to conceive, or women seeking an abortion

be required to watch a video of childbirth? I mean, if it's about educating the women-folk and all....

[RC]

48. Don't forget the audio.

Need those wails of pain here.

[Iris]

51. of course, they could show the PBS version where the woman barely makes a sound

Just concentrates on giving birth.

Or, better yet, they can show that one to people the want to ENCOURAGE to have children and the more horrifying ones to the women and teenagers who they think shouldn't have children.

[gollygee]

55. Or watch a video of a two-month-old baby at 3 am

Yeah, really.

[Iris]

56. ha! ha! You could just make them take a child to Chuck-e-Cheese!

That did it for my sister!

[PeaceNikki]

54. This is already required in many states. One state is alone in requiring that the woman SEE the

ultrasound, but many states require that they are done to confirm the exact point of gestation.

The cost is incorporated into the price of the abortion. It's a more expensive procedure in states that require this and the additional counseling with a 24 hour wait period after counseling. This drives a lot of folks to neighboring states.

[robinlynne]

58. Now that makes sense. (except for the ultrasound part.)

[uppityperson]

68. I think they should do that even without the woman/ultrasound thing. nt