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Wiregrass Willie Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 07:38 AM
Original message
A Shocking Idea - Nerves Might Run on Sound
This is not political, but it is my experience that people intelligent enough to be interested in politics often are interested in other things.

With that thought, I offer this article :

A Shocking Idea: Nerves Might Run on Sound, Not Electricity
Brandon Keim Email 06.11.07 | 2:00 AM

Most people know that nerves work by passing electrical currents from cell to cell. But you might be surprised to learn that no one knows exactly how anesthetics stop nerves from carrying pain signals.

That's why two scientists believe that we really don’t know how nerves work after all.

According to their controversial theory, electricity is just a side effect of how nerves really operate: by conducting high-density waves of pressure that resemble sound reverberating through a pipe.

"Nerves are supposed to work like a series of electrical transistors," said Andrew Jackson, a physicist at the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, Denmark. "This picture is at best flawed."

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2007/06/nerve_communication


I think the Sound Theory opens up a way of explaining things that have been unexplainable. I've tried to accept the notion that everything in the Universe is based (in some way) on electric impulses. But that's nonsense. What was the first event in the history of the Universe ? The Big Bang. So Noise was the Genesis of all life as we know it. That certainly indicates it probably could still be the motivating force behind all living things in the universe and on the Earth. Surely that Big bang has not grown entirely silent. Maybe it must still be ricocheting through the Universe - passing along it's ancient wisdom.

I think science is guilty of being a victim of answer to this old question -- "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make a noise" ? Answer "No!". But just because we don't hear it is no sign that a noise does not exist which may be heard by other living creatures.

I would propose that something in the living cell has receptors that can hear and process sound to the benefit of the host organism. Take the woodpeckers that left my yard last week for the first time since March. How did they know winter is approaching and it was time to head South ? All my life I have heard inane reasons like --

(1) instinct (2) the days are getting shorter (3) solar impulse received by their brain.

Obviously it is "none of the above". How can a bird know the days are getting shorter if I have trouble noticing that fact ? Do they check their watches periodically ? Do they watch the Weather Channel ?

No ! But they could be hearing noise that is telling them to head South. Where would that noise be processed ? In the brain or in the cells ?

Suicides have always puzzled me. Why do people throw away their most valued possession ? Reading a biography of an author whose work I respect, I learned that the reason he killed himself was because he had been hearing voices that told him to do so. His book had just been received to great reviews, he had everything to live for and as he was preparing to meet his publishers. He went into a bedroom and shot himself. We always dismiss "voices" as a sure sign of insanity.
And well they may be. BUT -- maybe they are also sometimes picked up by sensitive brains from an outside source we don't understand.

Perhaps having ears prevents us from picking up the quieter noise heard by lower orders.

Think of all the sounds around us that we can't hear unless we have the proper listening device. Such as a radio or TV. Maybe living cells have a built in device.

Actually I have no answers at all. But I would love to see a modern day Newton or Galileo pick up this subject. I really think there is something there that will open up a new world of understanding. And possibly even the much sought after
"fourth dimension".

Please pardon the meandering. I may be a "searcher after truth" -- but mine is not a scientific mind.

Willie


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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sonic Weapons in Iraq -- and now, US cities
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Those things frighten the hell out of me. nt
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orpupilofnature57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. Belief is unsubstantiated hearing ,keep listening Willie.
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 07:50 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh gahd, I hope this was just a joke
Edited on Sat Sep-22-07 07:56 AM by HereSince1628
I'm not sure that even the most ardent supporter of solipsism could present a post that was based more completely upon personal perspective.
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EstimatedProphet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Thank you for that
I was afraid that the OP was going to be swallowed whole by everyone.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. "In the Beginning was the Word." The ancients might have been on to something.
I'm one who believes sound was what was used to build the (extremely) ancient megalithic structures in Latin America and the pyramids.

And torturers know sound can be very useful to them.
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Wow, I never heard that...
Can you provide links or other resources to learn more about this?

I'm specifically interested in the ancients' belief in vibration/sound...voice (chanting), sacred drumming, etc.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Some links:
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Thanks! n/t
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OneGrassRoot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 07:54 AM
Response to Original message
5. I am not scientifically "wired" as far as my thought process, either...
but I am very interested in "energy" and "vibration" as well (no, no, don't go there...yeah, I'm female...:evilgrin:).

I just wanted to thank you for posting this and sharing your thoughts. Very interesting...
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Lerkfish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. There have been researches into how certain sounds resonate with certain bodily functions
The most famous one (which may be apochryphal, I don't know) was where a demonstration was held and the tone emitted to the audience, who all had to immediately leave . It was a tone that affected the sphincter muscle.

LOL.

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smirkymonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
8. I know MY nerves run on sound.
I am almost machine like in that respect - harsh discordant sounds will turn me into a homicidal maniac and pleasant, soothing nature like sounds with almost put me in a trance. I know it's anecdotal, but I have never doubted the affect of sound on my nervous system.

In fact, it's so important to me, I have considered seriously moving out of New York - between the above ground noise, the subway, the constant clammer, the sheer number of people trying to talk over one another, I am chronically on edge and ready to snap. I go to the park to calm down, but can't seem to hold on to that peace as I go about my life here.
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
9. Do not make the mistake of thinking that a wave of energy (pressure) is the same thing as sound
I know it is convienent to think of this as 'sound' but its not. I know that music has properties that sooth the mad beast but in order to have sound you have to have a medium (air usually) for it (the energy of the pressure wave) to move through and a sensing device (ear) to receive and make sense of it. Take away the air and/or the ear and you have no sound, but you still have the energy carried by the wave of pressure.

See what I mean?

Thanks for the link though, it was very interesting.
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Totally Committed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. I totally agree. Otherwise, wouldn't the deaf be devoid of any "nervous sensors"?
I had two deaf roommates when I was in grad school, and, I can tell you they are not.

But, I will say this: The one who had been deaf from birth, and the one who had been deaf since childhood, were very different in their reactions to things. (They were, say, startled by different things, and their perceptions of what was happening around them was often different at any given moment.)

TC




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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
14. Aren't the microwaves we use to heat up food...
sound waves? And, don't they mess up pacemakers? May be onto something.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. No, they are not. They are electromagnetic waves...
Edited on Sat Sep-22-07 10:47 AM by originalpckelly
they cause the water molecules in food to align themselves to the changing magnetic fields emitted by a magnetron, much as a compass aligns itself to the Earth's magnetic field. This dipole heating effect is what causes food to heat in a microwave. (That and another effect are responsible, but water forms the primary amount of heat generation, and it works through dipole heating.)
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. OK. Thanks.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Nothin' to it...
I'm just mildly interested in science and I thought you would be too. It's actually pretty cool when you think about it. ;-)
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rateyes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I am. I'm glad you gave me the information.
It is cool. I think this "nerves operating on sound" is an interesting hypothesis.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
15. Sorry, but these guys lost me at this
"But you might be surprised to learn that no one knows exactly how anesthetics stop nerves from carrying pain signals."

That's utter horseshit, we know perfectly well how anesthetics work, by binding with the receptor sites on the dendrite end of the neuron.

Oh, and the Big Bang, well, it wasn't literally a big bang. You know, vacumn of space and all, doesn't carry a sound. Big Bang is simply a metaphorical term for when lots of light and matter started expanding into our current space. Nothing about sound if you would check with the experts.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. That's what I was thinking.
We know that opiods don't work on me because for some reason my receptor sites are different, so the opiods don't block the pain pathways.

We know a good bit about pain drugs and anesthetics, actually. Sound is an interesting theory, but it would have to fit in with what we already know and have proven.
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Boojatta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. By "expanding into" do you mean "occupying" or "becoming"?
If you meant "becoming", then perhaps it would be clearer if you wrote "when light, matter, and space started" to do what they started to do.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. No, I meant what I said, and thought that I stated it fairly clearly
I can call my astrophysicist friend and find out if he has a better statement, but judging from our past conversations, I doubt that he would, at least not that a layman can understand.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
28. Their science is silly but it's an interesting idea. n/t
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Wiregrass Willie Donating Member (436 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-23-07 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #15
29. Where once I was blind, now I see.
Oh, and the Big Bang, well, it wasn't literally a big bang. You know, vacumn of space and all, doesn't carry a sound.

The building blocks of a universe in birth were tumbling over each other and all of that matter flying outward at enormous speed --- It was bound to have been a very quiet event.

I suppose scientists would have preferred to have called it "Silent NIght", but they feared any religious connotations.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
16. Does the pain of an electrical shock stem simply from heat?
It would have to if the electrical model of pain transmission is false. However, I will note that from my own experience that my hand shook violently when I was shocked a couple of years back.

If the pressure wave transmission theory is accurate, and the electrical impulse is merely a side effect, would my hand not have moved so violently?

A third, interesting option may be that both are true, that both play a part in the transmission of sensation through nerves. Who knows? Certainly not I, but I suggest the idea nonetheless.
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TZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
20. I hate it when physicists try to "explain" biology-thats a piece of crap
Nerve impulses might behave in "similar" ways to an electrical circuit but they aren't the smae at all. As far as I can tell, potassium and calcium ions aren't necessary in an electrical flow. They are for nerve transmission. Oy. The media really does not understand science.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
22. This was brought up twice in the Science forum
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-22-07 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
27. Sound plays a big role in everything.
Ask any musician or a Krishna conscience follower.
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