When is enough? When do you call it quits?

[midnight armadillo]

The US is in dire straits these days, which is no secret. Our health care system is collapsing, federal safety regulations are a joke - making things like buying toys and eating food a gamble with your health, the feds actively seek to harm segments of society (ex. New Orleans), our whole nation revolves around feeding the military budget, war without end, the Dems are rolling over in the face of Republican authoritarianism, crumbling infrastructure and public education, etc etc etc. Locally there is a lot of pain from mortgage chaos and the possibilty of a recession exists. I don't need to catalog everything here, DU'ers know what's going on.

So, when is enough? There are other places in the world to live, with societies that are not so consumerism-crazed, where health care is attainable, where children are educated without needing to kill one's self to afford a good school district, with functioning democracies, and so on. I've been debating this with myself since I've got two little boys - 4 and 1.5 - and I wonder what sort of world and society is best for them to grow up in. I still think a good life can be had here in the US (it's not THAT far gone...yet), but who knows, a Giuliani presidency or a psychotic overreaction to another terrorist attack might change that. I doubt that packing up and leaving is something my family would do, but who knows.

There is of course the argument that one should stay and fight for change, but many have come to other conclusions in many countries throughout history. Thoughts?

[Chipper Chat]

1. My neighbors are moving to Germany next summer.

Two 40-somethings with 4 kids. Tired of trying to get ahead here.

[acmavm]

2. Hope you got lots of money. You'll need it. And you'll play hell finding

a country that wants us. Just ask the couple trying for asylum in Finland (of all places).

But let me ask, WHY should we leave? And WHY is it not up to us to fight back? Life isn't supposed to be easy. Shangri-La does not really exist. And part of life's journey (damn it all) is to earn our humanity, prove our integrity, and face up to our fears. That's the Catch-22 to being a human being. And it truly sucks.

[american_typeculture]

31. Earn our humanity? That's bullshit.

I "earned" that the moment I emerged from my mothers womb. That sounds an awful lot like, "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" thinking. It's bullshit.

[mwb970]

3. If enough of my friends would go, I'd start an enclave somewhere.

I am just so sick of America under this Republican dictatorship. Reading the paper every morning is like getting socked in the face repeatedly to start my day - every day. I don't know how much more I can take - I think I'm going mental over these horrible un-American monsters in the White House and their relentless attacks on America, its Constitution, and its system of government.

The "terrorists" attacked us once, six years ago. The Bush Regime attacks us each and every day. Too bad we're all too busy watching American Idol and checking up on BritneyParisNicoleLindsay to notice or care about our country being stolen from us right in front of our eyes.

I would love to spend the rest of my time in an enlightened nation that could remind me of the now-lost America of my youth and young adulthood. The only thing holding me here is my circle of friends and family members that are special to me. I would be alone in a foreign country. So here I stay, surrounded by a few special people and a nation of clueless idiots.

Please. Tell me I'm wrong and that there is hope for this nation.

[HereSince1628]

4. ?? The radical agenda of Neoliberal economic theory is doing exactly what it's meant to

It's destroying all those nasty costly protections that have surpressed profits. The health care system is working GREAT! Rather than waiting to move all a patient's family assets into the hands of the elite members of the health/industrial complex upon the patient's death, they are now able to strip wealth from American families while they are still young enough to go out and try to raise a grub stake again (it works just like cutting off flower heads...the tough love stimulates more growth, don't you know?).

Trickle down-trickle out economics are working great. The cost of manufacturing is racing to lower levels as production is moved to off-shore havens of radical neo-liberalism leaving greater profits to be shared with folks "smart enough" to have been born into family lines that produce educated people with incomes that allow them to invest. And the global openness in combination with crashing dollar values, promise to move ownership of the neocolonial corporations, and all the dividends of ownership, to foreigners building the new "Investors Paradise' in Dubai far far from the desperate hunger of a socialist leaning American proliteriat who would simply squander it.

Capitalism surely hasn't had it this good since the Gilded Age of the 1890's, maybe since the rise of the European feudal system and the selling of free men into serfdom.

[tabasco]

15. Neoliberalism? LMAO. Otherwise known as republicans.

Thanks for using the right-wing terminology.

[HereSince1628]

20. Neoliberalism is a real terminology for a radical capitalist movement

that was trying to push its weight around in the 1930s.

It was 'liberal' because ideologically it advocated getting business 'liberated' from taxes, regulation, and anti-trust laws. Essentially it was opposed to all the economic reforms that came from Teddy and Franklin Roosevelt.

During the Reagan administration, this ideology rose like the Phoenix to crush environmental progress and the accountability for social costs resulting from polluting industries. Reagan's popularity is largely for his support of neoliberal economics. Emperor W has simply put exclamation points behind every neoliberal economic he has a chance to put a signing statement to.

[tabasco]

22. That's what is known as conservatism.

I urge you to stop using right-wing terminology.

Many call the neocons "neoliberals." Utter bullshit.

Not many on this list have ever been liberal in any way:

http://www.king-george.biz/wst_page5.html

Again, why use their stilted language? How can anything in diametric opposition to Roosevelt be considered liberal?

Neoliberal is a word used to attach conservative disasters to liberals.

[HereSince1628]

24. Fine I'll act illiterate, completely ignore history, that'll solve everything

neo-liberal is a word that has been used for more than 75 years. If you want to research neoliberal economic ideology, the word conservatism will do you no f&*king good at all if you want to get to the 21st century roots of the current lunatic ideology that guides W's economic decisions.

The ignorant can always be misled.

Why should I choose to use words which will keep people ignorant? Because people think that every use of the letters l-i-b-e-r-a-l has something to do with the political left?

Neoliberal vs NeoCon is just a crackpot equivalency based on ignorance of history. Accepting that terminology is as likely to be as useful as the outcome of a group discussion in a Kansas sunday school class is to discover evidence supporting evolution.

[robcon]

5. I love America.

I'm not leaving - and I'm welcoming the millions of others to come to America - just as my great grandfather and great-grandmother came here from Ireland in 1880.

[mwb970]

6. Do you mean you love Bush-style America?

Or the old America? They're not the same.

[Glorfindel]

7. One grows weary, weary...I honestly don't know at what point to quit

Fortunately for me, I'm no longer young. Whatever happens to this poor country now won't affect me for most of my life. If I were in my 20's, I'd leave at once. Where to go? New Zealand or Australia, if they'd have me.

[cali]

8. I love Vermont

I'm not giving it up to the bastards, and so far we're not headed in that direction here at all.

[Totally Committed]

10. I have to agree with you about Vermont -- it is one of the most naturally beautiful

places on earth. I love it there.

TC

[cali]

11. and of course I love it for that, but I also love it

for its progressive politics. Where else could Bernie be elected?

[Totally Committed]

12. I think of Bernie as a "beautiful" natural resource, don't you?

LOL!

He's a force of nature!

TC

[midnight armadillo]

29. Same here

I've discussed a VT move many times with my wife. We really love the Burlington area.

[Totally Committed]

9. Soon.

Most likely after this next election.

We have friends in Ireland and Italy, family in New Zealand, and proximity to both Canada and Mexico. We're talking amongst ourselves at the moment about this very subject!

TC

[Nay]

26. Us, too, most likely. I understand both sides -- the stayers and the goers--

but as I have citizenship in another (progressive) country, we will prob leave. I can take Mr. Nay and our adult son, etc., with me with little problem. It all depends on Mr. Nay's retirement, and how Sonny Nay is doing in school, but going is about 75% probable right now.

Especially since I think a republican will win in 2008. When that happens, I sell the manse to a Repub (that's all that's around here) and GTF out.


P.S. I know at least two sets of coworkers who will retire within 5 years and they're going, too. One has bought a house in Greece already.

[renie408]

13. God, I think I just realized that I am Pollyanna...ugh!

I think things will cycle back around and get better. Yes, there are some scary things going on in our country today. But pick any date in history and try to tell me that things weren't scary. And pick any country in the world and they might not have OUR problems...but they have THEIR problems. It is ALWAYS scary.

The thing is to maintain balance. You can't ONLY look at the creepy things. And you have kids! I have worked to teach my two kids to be responsible, to care about the world and to want to make a difference. Raise those kids to make a change. That is something you can do. Vote. Get involved in community service. And then watch a sunset, play with your kids, walk the dog, snuggle with somebody. Try not to get underneath all the problems going on.

It is a truth of media that they tend to focus on the negative. It is easy in your efforts to be informed to become depressed with the number of negative stories out there. Even here, the focus in on what's fucked up. Sometimes I have to wander away from the DU for a period of time to keep from becoming overwhelmed.

[treestar]

14. Another country would have the accept you

This is the only country that has to take you. In all others you are an alien and subject to whatever restrictions that country might have.

It just always amuses me how Americans never even consider that.

[Bluerthanblue]

21. uh, we have restrictions here too... unless

you are talking about illegal aliens.

Despite the rhetoric inscribed below the statue in NY harbor, many tired, poor individuals seeking shelter here, are rejected.

It amazes me how many Americans don't understand this.

[treestar]

25. I'm assuming the OP is a native US citizen

um, the US does have to take its own citizens. It is aliens that it is restrictive about. But it does not deport or refuse to re-admit a U.S. citizen. I was talking about how US citizens seem to assume that they can go to any other country they want. Unless they are dual citizens of another country, it's at least always in question, especially for more than a visit.

[Bluerthanblue]

28. i get you now... but

i don't think there are that many people who don't understand that emmigrating to another country is often difficult at best. Maybe i'm wrong.

:hi:

blu

[midnight armadillo]

30. That's true

However, between my wife and I we have a ton of education (me: PhD, MS, BS in physics, her: MBA, master's ed, BS biz) which makes us a decent set of candidates for emigration. I get a passing score on Canada's little immigration test without even having a job offer there.

[martymar64]

16. Maybe the solution is dissolution of the US

We can let the states secede and form our own countries. New England, the Great Lakes and upper Midwest, the West Coast should all become their own nations, using the Constitution as their own templates for Gov't. The South and Texas and the Mountain west can go do their own thing. Let every region go it's own way. We'll all be better off in the long run.

[mwb970]

18. This is what will eventually happen.

The divisions between Americans, growing deeper every day, will eventually require partitioning the country into separate nations, possibly after Civil War II. With one political group upholding and defending the Constitution and another political group violating and desecrating that same Constitution with increasing predictability, I just don't see how we can be "one nation" much longer. (I will side with the preservers of the Constitution.)

[Bluerthanblue]

23. gotta admit

your solution makes more sense with each passing day.

Maybe it is not possible to maintain a society as large and diverse as this any other way.

States rights and federal oversight don't seem to be working very well anymore. It was one thing when we were 13 colonies...

:shrug:

[Hamlette]

17. My family has lived all over the world, they kiss the ground when they return. I will never leave.

They lived in Denmark, Switzerland, Scotland to name a few.

The grass is always greener and to me the idea of America is worth fighting for.

I won't let the bastards run ME out.

[blondeatlast]

19. I'll give up when they appear at my door with guns.

The neocons are so 15 minutes ago. I figure I need to swear it out a few more months and things will turn around.

I know, I'm ever the optimist, but it helps to have a ten-year old. He gives me something to both inspire me and to fight for--not to mention keep me just distracted enough.

[sandnsea]

27. I'd go if I could

This country is lost. Many of the same Democrats who ranted against the centrist DLC who won't fight the Bushies are now supporting Hillary. We're fucked. I'm resigned to it. I was telling young DUers to get out a long time ago. Whatever we're doing in this country isn't living.

[Cha]

32. Never! THE USA needs us

now more than ever and I will never give up. I used to daydream about another country where the fascists didn't own it but I love my country and we have some amazing leaders fighting right along with us.

Don't blame anyone, though, if they want to go..hopefully you can come back some day when the fascists have self-imploded.

ghouli isn't going to lie, cheat, and receive goo goo calls from judy(or whomever) during his speeches, into the whitehouse.