What would you do if your kid brought this home from school?

[RiverStone]

I'd go ballistic! :mad:

This is exactly what elementary kids brought home in their backpacks from the Madison Wis. Metropolitan School District earlier this month.

We are talking PUBLIC school here folks.

Fortunately, the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) is also on top of this.

* * * * * * *

Jesus Flyer Calls for School District Policy Change, FFRF Charges

"Plant the Seeds of Faith in Jesus in Your Child at our Sunday School."
September 18, 2007

(MADISON, WIS.) The Freedom From Religion Foundation is asking the Madison Metropolitan School District to alter its laissez-fair take-home flyer policy, following complaints about a religion-drenched flyer sent home on behalf of a church in the backpacks of elementary-aged schoolchildren.

The bright gold full-page flyer by Grace Lutheran Church announced "Back to Sunday School" and a "Sunday School Rally" on Sept. 9, which included a sign-up form, and stated: "Plant the Seeds of Faith in Jesus in Your Child at our Sunday School."

"Don't Neglect the 3 R's: Religion, Relationships and Rejoicing!"

Foundation co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor, whose watchdog group has strongly objected in the past to the District's take-home policy, wrote Supt. Art Rainwater: "This practice is objectionable on so many counts."

Gaylor cited overworked teachers being forced to distribute religious literature, small children being confused between public school and religious functions, parents of diverse backgrounds "opening backpacks to review school papers and being assaulted with a religious message," and taxpayers subsidizing the time-consuming distribution.

full story here:

http://ffrf.org/news/2007/MMSDFlyer.php

[Wcross]

1. Uh, who thought that was a good idea?

Yes, I would be quite upset and I would take steps to make sure it didn't happen again.

[Annces]

2. Does not seem right to me

Just speculating, but maybe one of the secretaries or teachers is part of this church, and is using the school to distribute this.

Also if it was a Wiccan flyer, you better believe parents would be upset.

[file83]

31. The weirdest part of the flyer is the disclaimer at the bottom:

"This is not a school sponsored activity and the Madison Metropolitan School District does not approve, support or endorse this program/activity."

So, they say that, but then turn right around and actively pass out the flier, which in fact constitutes "support or endorsement" of said activity.

It's almost like a Jedi-Mind trick. They pass it out but then put a disclaimer on it saying they aren't passing it out.

They are BUSTED.

[OzarkDem]

161. Sounds like the school district is being bullied

by the church groups.

These churches have their own buildings - they should keep the programs there.

[MrCoffee]

42. Read the school district policy for yourself

http://www.madison.k12.wi.us/policies/7041.htm

Requests for the distribution of non-school-related materials shall be submitted to the SUPERINTENDENT or her/his designee who shall determine if the information should be distributed based upon the following criteria:
The program/activity must serve K-12 public school-age children;
The program/activity does not violate the law;
The program/activity must be considered appropriate as determined by the SUPERINTENDENT or her/his designee; and
The materials requested to be distributed are not being provided for the purpose of recruiting current MMSD students to attend a non-MMSD school/educational program/activity that occurs during regular school hours during the school year.

The material shall be sorted in appropriate bundles of 25-30 for distribution for each class; and the information shall contain a non-endorsement statement on each piece of material requested to be distributed through the schools. Such statement shall indicate that this is not a school-sponsored activity and the MMSD does not approve, support, or endorse this program/activity.
All materials must have a telephone number on them in order for parents to get further information.
Persons, groups, or agencies seeking approval to distribute materials in schools are strongly encouraged (1) to provide materials translated into the languages spoken by the families receiving the information; and (2) to offer scholarship or subsidy fees to low income students if fees are requested for participation;
Prior to distributing non-school-related materials to parents, parents shall be notified by the District that they will receive non-school-related materials if they do not object to such information being sent home with their child/children. If a parent objects to receiving non-school-related materials, the materials shall not be sent home to such parent.
Failure to meet any of the specific requirements will result in the non-school- related materials not being distributed through the schools.

If you don't want your kid bringing it home, opt out.

[Annces]

64. I think having the superintendent be the decider

could create problems. I really do not think they would allow other religious or spiritual groups to hand out flyers from their school, even with the opt out plan. Christianity is the dominant religion and gets a free pass where others would not.

[MrCoffee]

65. I really think we have no idea what other flyers they allow

The policy is pretty clear as to what and how flyers can be distributed. That language about the Superintendent deciding what's appropriate is pretty obviously some school-board lawyer's hope that it will be a defense if they get sued. My guess (and it's a pretty good guess) is that they don't turn anything down. Follow the procedure, get your flyer passed out.

[Annces]

74. Sounds good to me

As long as it is equal treatment.

[MrCoffee]

80. that's all anybody can ask for, isn't it?

equal treatment for everyone sounds like a good thing, doesn't it?

[havocmom]

156. Would be interesting to run flyers for other religions and see what the Super does with them

Bet if an Islamic group sent fliers home, the policy would change faster than greased lightening.

[Critters2]

81. Thanks for posting this.

It should put an end to the controversy. It won't, but it should.

Kids receive these things because their parents haven't opted out. Nuff said.

[tblue37]

144. I think it should be opt-in. Opt-out requires harried parents

to go through procedures they shouldn't have to go through. It's just like the "opt-out" option for military recruitmnet.

[DCKit]

149. Someone SHOULD distribute some Wiccan lit to the kids then sue when they're not allowed

Force the parents to buy the Harry Potter collection while they're at it. It's not about evil magic you morans, it's about morality, integrity and loyalty. Democratic values.

[Virginia Dare]

169. Great idea..

it's also about upholding the Constitution. A great teachable moment for the kids.

[intheflow]

151. Parents shouldn't have to opt out of getting the flyers.

We have no idea what other kinds of flyers are being passed out. Maybe notices like free entrance to the local zoos or museums on special days, or a town league sport team tryouts are also being tucked into backpacks. So opting out just doesn't seem to cut it for me. The school refusing to distribute anything religion-oriented is the proper step to take.

[Eric J in MN]

3. If the school distributed literature about Atheist Meetings in the same way,

...then I might not be upset.

I doubt they do.

[tbyg52]

32. You betcha booties they do - NOT! nt

[file83]

33. But the Christian community would flip out, start a PR campaign, and the next thing you know...

...Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Bill O'Reilly are talking about how the liberals are trying to kill God and Christmas for a week.

[rucky]

4. I'm shocked it's a Lutheran Church doing it.

I went to a Lutheran school that would never promote a stunt as tacky as this one. My understanding is they're usually pretty low-key.

[tanyev]

8. I just looked them up because I was surprised, too.

I was dreading it would be my synod, the LCMS, which is pretty traditional but doesn't usually go in for something like this, but it looks like it's ELS, a small body which is in full communion with the Wisconsin Synod, which is even further right than my church body. I think Michelle Bachmann is Wisconsin Synod.

[murielm99]

25. I was raised LCMS.

I simply can't do that any more. I am a United Methodist now.

The tradition is hard to shake, though. Once in awhile, I attend the LCMS church down the road, just because I enjoy the traditional service.

My parents joined a Wisconsin Synod church for a short time. They did it because of political tensions in their church. They are very conservative, and even they were uncomfortable with the Wisconsin Synod. They knew what they were getting into as well.

I'm still a bit surprised to see this. In my experience, ELS churches tend to keep to themselves. Anyone who joins has to accept the full range of their beliefs, including communion, predestination and how they treat women. They don't accept any outsiders who won't accept all their beliefs.

[tanyev]

34. Yeah, I think my days with the LCMS are numbered, too.

Last month I found out that the synodical convention in July started with a videotaped message from George Bush. I've NEVER heard of that before. I just wish I'd found out before I accepted a volunteer position at my church. I feel obligated to see it through until May, and then we will start looking for a new church home. Probably ELCA or maybe Methodist. The sad thing is, this area is so red, that even churches which belong to a liberal denomination are still pretty conservative.

[bettyellen]

39. political conservatives have mounted a takover of Protestant churches- same as they did

with the Southern Baptists.
There was great reporting on it on State of Belief - a AAR radio show producced by the Interfaith Alliance.
It's in their archives too.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Okay, ELS, That makes sense. They and the Wisconsin Synod are just plain crazy

They're basically fundamentalists who have a formal service instead of a show biz free-for-all.

They think other Lutherans are deceived by the devil.

[kineneb]

67. The "Dark Lutherans", per Garrison Keillor

He has a great monolog on the difference between the Dark Lutherans and the Light Lutherans.

[tanyev]

152. I don't recall hearing that one.

I'll have to look for it. Thanks!

[TahitiNut]

73. I, too, spent my teen years in the LCMS ... traditional but NOT 'fundy/evangelical.'

This ain't LCMS's style. I no longer affiliate myself with the LCMS - I'm more a Unitarian at this point - but I don't associate them with the zealots at all.

[PDJane]

5. I'd be down to the school spitting fire

On the first day they opened after I received that flyer.

I've learned how to fight the shcools through long and bitter experience, and they would regret that flyer till the day they died.

[Critters2]

102. No, you would've opted out of your kid receiving such flyers

per the district policy (see post #42) and your kid would never have received it.

[yardwork]

158. As a parent, I would never exercise that kind of "opt out" - it would have a bad impact

on my kids. The schools hate it when people opt out, and half the time the staff forget to check the "opt out" lists anyway. Opting out of this kind of distribution just makes the school mad at the family, which has a bad impact on the children. And it's so difficult to get into college now, parents are afraid to do anything that might mean a less than stellar recommendation from the school counselor on their kids' college entrance applications.

So no, opting out really isn't an option.

[patrice]

6. You should see the churches organizing in Oklahoma highschools.

I saw it first hand in the early to mid 90s.

Religious student groups getting time out of class for their activities, which included putting large posters up in the school halls, and praying to the flag.

[Totally Committed]

7. I'd be on the phone to the ACLU so fast, it would give anyone watching me whiplash!

No way does that belong coming home with ANY child from a Public School!

TC

[Not Me]

10. Let the pastor know what you think...

They included his email address on the flyer:
[e-mail]

[Totally Committed]

11. Thank you!

I think I will.

TC

[me b zola]

48. I think that I'll drop a note

And invite him to a Pastafarian worship service. :evelgrin:

[Critters2]

84. The ACLU would take one look at the distric policy

(see post #42) and tell you it's perfectly legal.

[Totally Committed]

103. Is that legal in the U.S.?

I want complete seperation of Church and State again!

That is horrendous. Of course, you're right, but I'm still e-mailing. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

TC

[Critters2]

107. The Constitutional issue isn't separation,

but establishment. The government can't aid one religion over others. As long as all religious groups are allowed to do this, it's perfectly legal.

[MrCoffee]

109. the school district is fully in compliance with US law

and you'll never ever never get complete separation of church and state again, because we've never had complete separation of church and state.

[scarletwoman]

9. "This is not a school sponsored activity & the Madison Metropolitan School District does not

approve, support, or endorse this program/activity." Yeah, right. :grr:

By allowing their teachers to distribute these flyers in public school in the first place IS de facto approval and support! This is ridiculous!

I'm with you, I'd go ballistic!

sw

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[spoony]

60. University of Feigned Outrage

Or at least I hope it's feigned...for their blood pressures' sake.

[MrCoffee]

63. tehehe

well played!

[Critters2]

78. Considering that the school district allows families to opt out

of receiving such flyers at all, it's a safe bet that it's feigned.

[johnnypneumatic]

12. those faces on the apples drawings are scary

they look like child molester apples

[RiverStone]

16. And notice how diverse all those singing kids are...

:sarcasm:

Of course, this flyer has nothing to do with diversity.\

I would use it to line my cats litter box!

[Zookeeper]

13. The teachers at my son's middle school, try not to give....

homework on Wednesdays, because a neighborhood church has a service and youth activities. My impression is that the teachers are responding to pressure from some parents and the representatives of the church.

Between that and the flagrant promotion of Christianity by some of their elementary school teachers, I just about freak out when I hear Parochial school parents bitch about how anti-Christian Public schools are.

[knitter4democracy]

20. Not just one church.

Wednesday nights are traditionally times for weeknight services in evangelical and fundamentalist and some Pentacostal churches. Many churches have Wednesday night services.

[Triana]

14. I would COMPLAIN LOUDLY to the school for giving my kids propaganda (n/t)

[donsu]

22. me too - very forcibly

nt

[JNelson6563]

15. I would organize an atheist mtg

and demand the school distribute it to all the kids too. As soon as I was denied my lawsuit would be filed and the fireworks would begin.

Julie

[Critters2]

111. We're talking about Madison, WI here

Trust me, your atheist flyer would get distributed.

You'll just have to wait for your fireworks till the 4th, just like everyone else.

[rodeodance]

160. hi from the near east side

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tbyg52]

35. I don't think any will - I don't think anyone on DU would find this acceptable. nt

[MrCoffee]

45. what's unacceptable about the school district passing out flyers?

you can be as outraged as you like, the school district is not violating any laws.

[Odin2005]

133. Just because it's legal doesn't mean it's right.

[seabeyond]

49. you think wrong. down below i explained my position n/t

[tbyg52]

115. OK, I stand corrected., and I'll amend that to *I* do not find it acceptable.

There's a difference between student-led religious clubs distributing flyers and actual churches doing so. Sort of like the difference between student-run religious clubs and teacher or administrator-led prayer, which I had the misfortune to have to put up with when I was in school. You could opt out--and spend the prayer-meeting time in the principal's office. This strikes me exactly the same way.

It sounds like (I could be wrong) the flyers are actually being passed out, not just made available (not that I'd find that acceptable either). If they are being passed out, a kid who doesn't want one is put in the position of taking one anyway or being singled out. I spent a lot of my public school time in that position, and I feel it's a position a kid shouldn't be put in.

Edited to say:
Apparently downthread there is some info about students opting out. I don't think they should *have* to (and I also wonder about how conspicuous a kid who *does* opt out is)--I don't think churches should be distributing materials in public schools, even if it is legal. I would be leery of a church that takes this path.

If you think I take this personally, you are right, because I have many years of bad personal experience with religion and schools. Sorry I didn't take it a step further than just opting out back then, but that's water under the bridge.

[MrCoffee]

116. then call the school board and tell them to violate Federal law

[tbyg52]

119. Apparently they can choose not to let *any* outside organizations distribute flyers

Good idea.

[MrCoffee]

120. then call the school board and tell them to rescind their policy

personally, I'd like to know what community activities are available to my kids. I have no problem at all with this policy.

[tbyg52]

126. What I am doing here is expressing my opinion, as are you.

Expressing my opinion and following your advice (should I choose to) is not an either-or proposition, as your posts seem, to me, to imply. I could be wrong, but I read them as "shut up here, and go do this." Again, the two actions are not mutually exclusive. My apologies if I misread your intent.

[MrCoffee]

129. my apologies to you, tbyg52

there is so much misunderstanding of the First Amendment going on in this post that I get a little carried away. Your opinion is perfectly valid, and I did not mean to attack it. I apologize for coming off that way.

[tbyg52]

132. No problem, MrCoffee. Thanks.

I guess my final opinion (I'm going to mow the lawn) is that I think the *church* should reconsider. Even if it's not actually unconstitutional (about which I have not done enough research to form an opinion, in light of the postings here which made me realize I need to do more research), I still think that religious activities being publicized to kids by *adults* in a public school is not a good idea. I *know* teacher or administrator-led prayer is currently considered not constitutional, and to my mind this is not much different.

That's my current opinion, anyway. I'd also like to know how conspicuous opting out makes you (if at all). But that's for another day--the lawn is calling.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

53. Not this Christian, Oregonian

Churches should NOT use public schools to proselytize.

We're agreed there.

When Christians ask what the problem is, I ask them to imagine their child bringing home an invitation to an Islamic madrassa.

[spoony]

58. "Amused Xtian" chiming in

No, the school shouldn't be handing all the flyers out, but I must admit that part of me does enjoy watching so many here practically shit themselves over a piece of paper. "I'd pull my kid out of the school, and sue, and call congress!!111" Get a bloody grip, people.

[tbyg52]

121. A lot of important things are just "a piece of paper" nt

[formercia]

148. The Constitution is a piece of paper as well

It's the concept of the ideas expressed on that bit of paper that's important.

[spoony]

154. Yes, that's the same thing

You're right, the equivalent of junk mail is the exact same thing as the Constitution. And every time you throw away a Chinese restaurant menu, it's the same as defacing the Constitution.

[formercia]

155. Is your MK I brain housing unit made of Depleted Uranium?

for a minute, I thought so.

[valerief]

18. Brainwashing 101. nt

[snappyturtle]

19. I think the underlying problem is that the government hence schools

with federal funding are using every trick in their book to get rid of public education, period. NCLB is a good example of their technique to erode public education. Look what has happened in New Orleans.....many charter schools have sprung up. imho

[knitter4democracy]

21. I'd call the principal to ask what was going on.

Then, I would request a meeting with the principal and the asst. superintendant about whether this goes against court rulings. We may be Christians, but I doubt they'd send out flyers from our Eastern Orthodox churches or Catholic churches or Mormon congregations.

[Critters2]

87. The policy is posted

see post 42. When you'd call the principal to ask what is going on, she'd just read this to you.

[knitter4democracy]

136. Okay. Then I'd have to meet with the superintendant and school board.

I don't think this would hold up in court, so I'd need to meet with the district's lawyer, too. Just putting a disclaimer on it but still passing it out doesn't sound right to me. I would want to see it in the law.

[DS1]

23. I'd burn down the school, then slice up the staff in their homes

and bury them all standing upside down in a mass grave


:nuke: :nuke: :nuke:



:eyes:

[prole_for_peace]

24. amen!! ... uh i mean, ditto..

i would make up flyers for satanist meetings, athesit meetings, gay/lesbian meetings etc, find out the procedures for getting the teachers to distribute, and let them go. bet there would be an uproar then...

[Bucky]

26. And you'd pay for the matches & kerosene with a government welfare check, right?

Don't worry, the ACLU can get you off on a technicality.

[Virginia Dare]

167. That shows remarkable restraint on your part...n/t

[Forkboy]

27. Plant the Seeds of Faith in Jesus

Where's Freud when you need him?

For me and them, apparently. :evilgrin:

[Goblinmonger]

28. I'd throw it away.

If the school distributes flyers from non-religious organizations (and this means anything not school related) then they HAVE to distribute the religious. Only if they have a policy of no outside flyers can they not distribute this one.

Though as said upthread a bit, I might be tempted to see how liberal they really are with this policy.

But, I mean, seriously, just because my daughhter comes home with a Christian flyer does not mean that she is going to abandon her atheistic thoughts she has developed of her years. They don't have that much power.

[Bluebear]

105. 'If the school distributes flyers from non-religious organizations then they HAVE to distribute the

religious"

Are you sure about that, gm?

So if the Fire Department sends home flyers about fire safety, for instance, that has given the entre for any church to say "now you must also distribute this flyer"?

[Goblinmonger]

118. I could be wrong

but my understanding is that is true. Now if the "fire safety" handout was somehow related to a curriculum unit, even though it is from an outside organization, then it would not apply. And most of those kind of things are related. It's the same thing with providing rooms. If a school provides a meeting place for a non-school group, then it can't say "we just don't like yours" (well maybe for a "we're going to smoke weed on school grounds group" but you get the point). Can't remember the case, but a school allowed a Christian group to meet after school in a school room with a faculty member that agreed to supervise. They then disallowed an atheist group, or a pagan group, or something like that and found they couldn't. Of course, then they just didn't allow the religious groups so that they didn't have to "support" the godless.

There was something about an atheist camp flyer in some school to that was decided for similar reasons.

Still, I'm not going to bet all my Jeopardy money on this one Alex.

[Bluebear]

127. Hear ya....

I would love to see the folks at home get flyers to Buddhist temples, Planned Parenthood Preteens and the like, see what kind of caterwauling ensues :)

[lastliberalintexas]

159. I think it was a gay and lesbian student group

And I think the school was in Utah, maybe? I do remember that the school's decision was to eliminate all student organizations rather than allow the GLBT student group to form/meet.

Though we could also be talking about different cases, as there are soooo many of these school law cases in which the districts tried to treat a particular group or type of group differently than the "mainstream" student groups.


This principle also applies to adult groups who are allowed to use school grounds after hours, btw. If the local Rotary Club can use the school auditorium on Tuesday evening, then the local Pagans for Zues group can use it on Wednesday evenings. Which is one reason that most districts have policies forbidding use by any non-district affiliated group.

[MrCoffee]

123. That is exactly what the Equal Access Act says.

Any school that allows a limited open form, which is defined as at least one noncurricular activity, must allow all religions to participate in the forum.

if the school doesn't want to allow any noncurricular activity, it has that right. otherwise, it cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.

[Hydra]

29. Religion makes kids more docile in the presence of authority

Such idiots..."Step right up and get your school sponsored brainwashing! Don't be shy!"

[NMMNG]

30. I'd throw it in the recycle bin with the other paper

If the school distributes material for other organizations/groups then they have to distribute material for religious groups. Otherwise there's a discrimination issue. Their only other choice is to not distribute any material.

[tbyg52]

36. Their only other choice is to not distribute any material.

Works for me.

Alternatively, the *church* could have made the responsible decision not to send these flyers to the school in the first place.

[sarcasmo]

37. Pull my kid out of that School the next day.

[undeterred]

38. When I was a kid that never would have happened

My dad was an atheist and he would have thrown a fit. My mom took us to Sunday School but I think it still would have seemed weird getting something from school in those days.

[seabeyond]

40. let kids go if they want, throw in the trash if not interested. dont need to make a battle

not a big deal. it is merely an opportunity. and kids of different religion or no religion do not have to be sheltered. their parents should be able to teach them well enough to be secure in their beliefs without being offended by this little piece of paper that allows those interested to participate. it is simply a notice. a choice.

as much as i dont like others pushing their religion on my children, i have also taught my children to respect the difference and enjoy the opportunity to communicate and discuss differing opinions and there is a higher in all beliefs. keep to the fact that it is an opportunity in growth for understanding and finding the higher and it becomes a wonderful game and expercise in children to think outside the box

we live in the religious belt. i have never experienced religious belt attitude in my lifetime. i am from california. though sometimes i am surprised, saddened and even disgusted, all i have learned from this experience has been kick ass and i wouldnt change it for anything in the world. has also allowed me the opportunity to give my children a kick as gift in site of life

i dont need to battle things where a person can simply say no thank you. i also teach boys, today people are offended by too much, on both sides. all of us need to mellow out a bit, or a lot

[DarbyUSMC]

153. You basically said what I was going to say.

Good grief. What if a paper was sent home about a sports event somewhere in town, (not school related) or any number of other activities a kid or parents might find interesting? Geeze. It was a flyer. Keep it, if you want it, pitch it if you don't. Chances are the kids never gave it a thought just like they often don't know what homework they have or when a test is being given even though they might have a printout of it in their backpacks.

I doubt it took up taxpayers money to pay for the time it took to pass those out. I don't think teachers are paid for piece work.

If we don't stop overreacting to innocent stuff; everyday life stuff; who is going to hear our voices over the important matters?

[seabeyond]

165. ya..... wink. n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

166. That soundss like something I wrote on acid once

far out

[renate]

41. wow... and I thought the "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance didn't belong

This seems kind of petty, but if school resources/taxpayer dollars were used to make those flyers I'd be upset, just on principle. (I'd be a little more upset than if the school footed the bill for making flyers about a local grocery store, etc, because of the religious aspect, but it's basically the same idea.) But if not, to be honest, I wouldn't march down to the school in protest or anything; I'd just take the opportunity to talk to my kid about the separation of church and state. (She already knows why I don't say the Pledge of Allegiance when I help out in the classroom.)

[Rabrrrrrr]

43. Jesus, people - read the article FIRST. This is ONE of ONE HUNDRED+ flyers a week.

It's beyond a religious issue - if this were the only flyer, then yes, it's clearly a violation of church/state relationships. The church VIOLATED NO RULE with this flyer, and the school violated no rule by handing it out.

But the school policy seems to be "give us a flyer, and we'll pass it out!" in which case this flyer is no worse and no different than any other flyer.

The problem here isn't that a religious flyer went home with the kids - the problem is that teachers are asked to hand out upwards of 5000 of the fucking things (flyers, not religious flyers) every year for a majority of non-school related functions.

It's unfortunate the OP felt the need for sensationalism and only played the religious aspect, ignoring the real issue in the story, which is that handing out flyers is a waste of teacher time, is expensive, and confuses people about what is school sponsored and what isn't. But, jumping on the "LOOK AT THOSE FUCKING CHURCHES NOW!!!!!!!!!!" bandwagon is a hell of a lot more fun for some DUers, it seems, than speaking the full truth.

I do agree with the people who are fighting to change the rule - I think it's ridiculous that teachers are asked to hand out shit that isn't school related, whether it's religious or a sports program or anything else.

[MrCoffee]

47. it's an all-or-nothing situation

the school district cannot discriminate on any basis except that outlined in the school district policy, which you can read here: http://www.madison.k12.wi.us/policies/7041.htm

the school district lets parents opt-out of the take-home materials all together. personally, i'd like to be informed of different things in the community my kids might be interested in. it doesn't seem all that burdensome to the teachers (the fliers have to be pre-sorted into classroom-sized stacks, and presumably the teachers will pass stuff out to the kids anyway), and if you disapprove so much, there's an opt-out. if you don't want your kid getting that stuff, don't.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

56. Yes, what is the school doing handing out flyers for non-school events?

I got through K-12 without EVER receiving a flyer for anything that wasn't school-sponsored.

[Critters2]

71. We got flyers for scouts, Camp Fire, YMCA, park district activities

all the time. I don't remember any religious group flyers, but if they weren't from my church (and I don't they ever were) my parents would've just tossed 'em.

[Debi]

128. Mycritters....I agree with you on this, but you do realize that

the boy scouts and camp fire and YMCA(young men's christian association) are ALL groups founded on religious principles?? :rofl:

I think the level of DU participation will soon drop as many many DUers will be having strokes or heart attacks over issues that several of us seem to just shrug off :hi:

[RiverStone]

61. I don't care if it is one of 10,000 fliers!

It's unfortunate the OP felt the need for sensationalism and only played the religious aspect...

The religious aspect IS the big issue here. It is actually very simple and I'd say to the school/admin/board... Keep your fucking religiosity out of my public school and my kiddo's backpacks! Ok --- I would not cuss at em, but they would get the point.

Opt out policy or not, I would NEVER expect a public school to endorse (through distribution) ANY religion over another or even at all.

As an aside, I do agree Rabrrrrr that teachers should not be asked to hand out shit that is not school related. Schools are not supposed to be "commercials" for anything other than education.

Though to correct your misconception, I did not feel a need to "sensationalize anything" (nor did the Freedom From Religion Foundation). I simply reported the facts. There is also nothing sensational about all the similar reactions (i.e. I'd go ballistic!) from DUers in this thread that get it.

This flier (or any flier promoting any faith) is wrong in our public schools! What part of Separation of Church and State do you not understand?

[MrCoffee]

66. distribution IS NOT endorsement

no matter how many posters say it in here, distributing that flyer is not endorsing religion.

[RiverStone]

70. Read this!

According to the Supreme Court, the First Amendment requires that public school students never be given the impression that their school officially sanctions religion in general or prefers a specific faith in particular.

http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_freedom/separation_cs_primer_schools.asp

[MrCoffee]

79. read the disclaimer ON THE FLYER!

if some kid gets the impression that the school district is endorsing religion based on that disclaimer, the school district is not doing it's primary job of educating the child.

[RiverStone]

92. No, the school is not doing it's job by passing out the flyer --- period.

This entire thread would be a non-issue if the school had exercised better judgment and never did it in the first place. Back to separation issues - they obviously don't get it.

The flyer was wrong in the first place - which makes the disclaimer even less relevant.

Legalese aside (which is a worthy debate in itself) - QUESTION to you MrCoffee:

If you were a District Supt., would you OK passing it out?

[MrCoffee]

95. The school district doesn't have a choice...it's all flyers or no flyers

if you don't like the school district passing out any flyers at all that aren't school related, that's valid. however, the school district decided to allow the practice. under Federal law, they have to allow all (well, not "all"; if someone wanted to pass out a flyer on how to blow up the school, they could disallow that) flyers that conform to the policy.

it's the Equal Access Act. The school district is in full compliance with Federal law. It's not a Constitutional violation.

[RiverStone]

101. So then if I wanted to pass out a flyer promoting the Muslim faith...

Wiccan, Atheist, Pagan, --- do you think they would do so with equal enthusiasm?

We both know the answer.

I don't have the legal knowledge chapter and verse to debate 1st Amendment law, but I do believe that the court of public opinion has already spoken.

It is wrong!

And I think it is a violation of Church/State anyway --- but I'm going for a hike this beautiful afternoon in Washington and don't have the time (or inclination) to drive to the nearest legal library! :)

[Critters2]

104. In Madison they would.

No doubt in my mind.

[MrCoffee]

106. you don't have the time or inclination to learn the facts before posting BULLSHIT?

:banghead: :banghead:

[Critters2]

108. It's much more fun to post crap

and watch people get worked into a lather.

I guess football isn't an interesting enough sport of some.

[MrCoffee]

110. lol...very true

you'd think i'd learn my lesson one of these days. :hi:

[Guaranteed]

130. I haven't seen one citation from you yet. And, in fact, what you're saying

is quite counter-intuitive.

What you're saying is that if the school sends home any flyers for non-school groups, it has to send them all out. So, say the local chapter of the Nazi party, or maybe the KKK, was looking to recruit 2nd graders. The school would have to send out that flyer, if they'd sent out anything?

There's something wrong with that formulation.

Where's your case law?

[RiverStone]

142. Does legal make it right?

Ultimately, I can't quote chapter and verse from Law Review. Not in a position here to make a legal determination. Don't need it!

Why the fuck does any church (or organized faith) feel the need to promote any religious BS in the schools???

ANSWER: ARROGANCE!

Somewhere along the chain of command the school reviews all the flyers for content. If I was in charge, I'd say NO religious promoting of any kind. Period! Legal or not --- simply out of respect for diversity.

I ask again, if you MrCoffee were a Principal, would you distribute the flyers?

My discomfort with the whole thing is more about simply being respectful and sensitive to diversity. It's that simple. Speaking of which...

CHILL OUT on the insults - we can agree to disagree without calling BULLSHIT!


Oh, I had a great hike!

[jberryhill]

134. No, we DON'T have an answer until a Wiccan/Pagan/Atheist organization asked, and is refused

Then, you have a test case. Unless the policy is tested, it is purely speculation, and you are angry about imagined discrimination.

[mzteris]

143. this is Madison - yes, they would.

They have at least one openly lesbian teacher and at least one Muslim (headscarf) teacher in my son's school.

Madison is different. really it is.

If you give 'em a flyer - and it's for kids - they pass it out.


We didn't get *that* flyer, but I was pissed about the damn BoyScout one. I hate the Boy Scouts.

I've been trying to get our kungfu studio off his butt and get flyers done for the schools in our area. We need more kids!

[Critters2]

96. The school district's policy gives you the right to opt out of receiving them.

Why haven't you?

[RiverStone]

97. This is not my school district

But opt out or not, I don't see any precedent that justifies it being on a flyer.

[Critters2]

99. It's not your school district?!

I see.

Well, tell whomever's school district it is, to just opt out, and save the histrionics for a real problem.

[RiverStone]

112. Any district ----IT IS WRONG!

My kids go to school in Washington....

But I don't think it is "histrionics" to be concerned that other children ANYWHERE USA are exposed to this religiosity!

You may not see it as a big deal mycritters2, but I experienced growing up in the Bible Belt South in the 60's - going to public school as a NON-Christian. Let me ask ya, do you know what it feels like to be a kid in school, in the South (or anywhere), who did NOT go to church or pray to Jesus or believe in the Bible? I do, and knowing that sense of isolation - I say please don't suggest this is not a REAL problem!

It is wrong to do anywhere in PUBLIC schools!

Yikes - this debate is affecting my mellow weekend mood.

OK, I'm off for a hike on this beautiful day :)

Cheers~

[MrCoffee]

113. did we harsh your weekend buzz?

gee, facts and reality have a tendency to do that, don't they?

[Critters2]

114. Madison,WI is not the Bible Belt--

AND the school district policy clearly allows parents to opt out. So, yes, it is histrionics.

[spoony]

157. Oh no! Exposure to religion!

I love how people say they raise their kids to be "freethinkers" or whatever, then they freak out when they're exposed to even the slightest thing they don't like. How weak is your, or your child's, mind that this flyer is so threatening to you?

Toss it in the recycle bin and be on with your day, people. Shit.

[Rabrrrrrr]

131. No, the religous aspect is irrelevant - the school has a policy that accepts flyers.

Since it has that policy, they are following they're own policy by accepting ALL flyers.

I know that elsewhere you've spewed some nonsense about being absolutely positive that they wouldn't accept a Muslim flyer - but, of course, you have no way to prove it, and it's just histrionics to posit such a thing.

Personally, I don't have a problem with either a policy that says no flyers for non-school related functions, or a policy that says ALL flyers are accepted (assuming the activities are legal, of course).

And in that sense, you ARE sensationalizing the religious aspect, because it's utterly irrelevant. The religiosity of the flyer that you showed is irrelevant in this case - if you believe that a school is okay to hand out non-school related flyers, then you have to accept that religions have the right to add theirs to the pot. That is Madison's policy - a "y'all come" policy. So the hystrionics don't help your argument at all.

Speaking personally, I'm with you on your "schools aren't commercials" stance - they shouldn't be handing out anything not school related (and they also shouldn't be letting companies advertise in the schools, either, but that's another issue).

BUT - if a school is going to have a policy of accepting non-school flyers, then Madison is doing it correctly by including religious ones. Equal Access, and all that. It's only fair.

[uppityperson]

82. Public schools should be like mail boxes. You can't put anything other than official stuff there,

To get put in a mailbox, it has to go through the USPS. To get handed out in school, it should be either school endorsed or not handed out.

[MrCoffee]

90. That's the other (legal) option the school has...it's all or nothing

Personally, I'd be interested to know what sort of community activities are available for my kid. I don't have a problem with the school conveying that information.
The school district policy allows for parents to opt-out of receiving the flyers. If you don't like receiving them, you don't have to.

[Solly Mack]

46. it would get real ugly really fast

[lateo]

50. Lawsuit.

I would immediately hire a lawyer and file.

[MrCoffee]

52. if your lawyer is worth anything, he'd tell you that you have no basis to sue

[lateo]

59. Maybe you didn't rtfa

Gaylor cited overworked teachers being forced to distribute religious literature, small children being confused between public school and religious functions, parents of diverse backgrounds "opening backpacks to review school papers and being assaulted with a religious message," and taxpayers subsidizing the time-consuming distribution.

[MrCoffee]

62. I have no idea how any of those talking points turn into grounds for a lawsuit

Foundation co-president Annie Laurie Gaylor should be admired for her creativity, and those may well be valid objecitons, but no lawyer in their right mind would think any of those are valid grounds upon which to file a lawsuit.

a strongly worded letter, sure. a lawsuit? not so much.

[lateo]

69. Maybe you should familiarize yourself with...

this website.

http://www.aclu.org


A cursory glance at some of their cases will explain the problems related here.

[RiverStone]

72. And another good one

http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_freedom/separation_cs_primer_schools.asp

Thanks lateo :hi:

[lateo]

77. Indeed...excellent link.

Any public school that is sending this stuff home with children is guilty of promoting a particular religion over another.

[MrCoffee]

86. i'm sorry, that's just incorrect

it would be promoting one religion over another if they let this flyer go but turned down a flyer from a mosque, for example.

distributing the flyer according to the policy is not, under any law or court ruling, promotion of religion. it's just not. saying that it is won't make it so.

[Critters2]

100. Not if every religion has the right to distribute flyers. nt

[MrCoffee]

76. let's get a little more specific to the issue at hand

the Anti-Defamation League has an excellent resource on the Equal Access Act, which is pretty much directly applicable to the flyers in question. http://www.adl.org/religion_ps_2004/

The First Amendment Center put together a pretty good resource on religious expression and public schools. You might recognize this, the ACLU endorsed it, as did People for the American Way. http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/PDF/bible_guide_graphics.PDF

of course, i spent a couple of semesters in law school on the First Amendment, so I might have some experience here. how much First Amendment exposure did you get in law school?

[lateo]

94. Ah.

So you are a lawyer? So, by all means please explain why this would not be a case to take to court. And please cite similar cases.

[MrCoffee]

98. The school district is simply following the Equal Access Act.

If a school district receives Federal funds and provides a "limited open forum", which is defined as "an offering to or opportunity for one or more noncurriculum related student groups to meet on school premises during noninstructional time"; the school district cannot discriminate against ANY organization on the basis of religion.

Board of Education of Westside Community Schools v. Mergens, 496 U.S. 226 (1990)

Read the Equal Access Act. It's a very straightforward piece of legislation. http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode20/usc_sec_20_00004071----000-.html

The school district here is providing a "limited open forum". If you don't like that, and would prefer that they not allow any "non-curriculum related student groups" at all, then call the school board.

[lateo]

140. Again it seems like you didn't rtfa

(1) the meeting is voluntary and student-initiated;
(2) there is no sponsorship of the meeting by the school, the government, or its agents or employees;

The article states that:

Gaylor cited overworked teachers being forced to distribute religious literature, small children being confused between public school and religious functions, parents of diverse backgrounds "opening backpacks to review school papers and being assaulted with a religious message," and taxpayers subsidizing the time-consuming distribution.

Pay attention to the details...

[Senator]

145. This is not providing a "limited open forum"

This flyer does not invite students to "meet on school premises during noninstructional time."

It invites them to the church.

---

[orpupilofnature57]

147. The American Way??? I Spent a Semester taking Human Rights and...

Civil Liberties and my TAX dollars have rights too ,and a School should not be a distribution center for anything but curriculum.

[proud patriot]

54. I would have many questions for the School Admin/Board/PSTA

:grr:

[Critters2]

89. See post #42

All the answers to your questions are there.

[AlCzervik]

55. i'd chuck it in the recycling bin.

[Jed Dilligan]

57. Easy

I would make him a t-shirt that says "God Doesn't Exist" to wear to school the next day.

Then, when they send him home or make him change his shirt, I sue for religious discrimination.

[Critters2]

68. I called the school superintendent when I was serving in Iowa

to complain about conservative churches doing this. He said it's been challenged in court time and time again. As long as the school just hands the things out, and doesn't actively endorse it, it's perfectly legal. So, he told me my church should do it too--"Cuz you'll never stop the fundies from doing it. Don't let them have an unfair advantage." Nice thought, but I've never done it. And never will.

[Critters2]

75. According to the school district policy, you have the right to opt out

of receiving non-school district flyers. Why haven't you opted out? Your child received this because you've said it's okay. Just let 'em know it isn't. According to the district's own policy, that'll stop the flyers being put in your kid's backpack.

But then, what would you have to be irate about?

[MrSlayer]

83. I would simply throw it away.

And forget about it.

[Auntie Bush]

85. Schools that put out this kind of S*** should no longer receive gov. funding.

Take away their money and they'll mend their ways...and follow the law.

[MrCoffee]

93. the school district IS following the law

the law says that schools that receive federal funds and provide "a limited-use forum" (defined as just one student organization), then the school district cannot discriminate on the basis of religion.

it's called the Equal Access Act.

[spanone]

88. the 'disclaimer' at the bottom of the flyer is interesting

is this to protect the schools?

wait til that muslim 'jihad' letter comes home with sonny

[MrCoffee]

91. school district policy is to put that disclaimer on ALL non-school flyers that go out

the school district is following the law.

[spanone]

150. to have teachers distribute this should be illegal if it's not.

freedom FROM religion

[Vickers]

117. I'd use it as an opportunity to explain to my kids about the

separation of church and government (although that would be old news to them!).

[Debi]

122. I would have just rolled my eyes and thrown it away

and remembered that I was the ultimate authority in my child's life (at least while he was in elementary school).

[jberryhill]

124. Does the school district allow other community organizations access to flyer distribution?

If they allow other community organizations to distribute flyers, then the school would have a quandary when approached by a church that wanted to distribute flyers.

If, say, they let the March of Dimes advertise their walkathon, would the school be discriminating against a religious organization conducting an activity.

On the one hand, the school is part of a community, and the community includes religious groups of various faiths. If the synagogue is having a bake sale, the flip side is whether it is right to say, "No, we can't mention that" while allowing, say, the Girl or Boy scouts, which have a religious dimension (albeit nondenominational), to also promote themselves in the schools.

I'm not clear that having an antiseptic "community free zone" in the school, is any better or fairer than a non-discriminatory policy to promote events being held in community.

[MrCoffee]

125. they do allow it, and there's no quandary at all

by providing what's referred to as a "limited open forum", it would be illegal for the school district to discriminate on the basis of religion.


parents have the right to opt-out of receiving flyers altogether if they choose to.

[Odin2005]

135. Public schools should not be in the business of distributing religious BS.

I don't care if it is legally allowed or legally required or whatnot. Public schools should be free of such religious BS. I also think schools letting kids out for Confirmation classes is wrong too, that should be done outside of school time.

[Chulanowa]

137. Wow...

They really haven't changed school clip art in the last 20 years, have they?

Oh, right, subject at hand. Take it up with the school board or PTA or whoever you've got if it bothers you. In the meantime, teach your kid all the neat sorts of orange paper airplanes with lousy clip art they can make.

[Trillo]

138. It's just another Advertisement

from an overly commercialized society. Sales calls. Junk mail. Spam. Billboards. Banner ads. Etc. It's not real comforting that school is being used to commercialize our children as distribution channels, as 'tools' to be used by the greater parasites among us.

So much for a lying system that falsely claims there is no child labor.

edit: Oops, I just realized I didn't answer your question. The child would be prohibited from bringing that "trash" home to me as well as any other Advertisements; if it continued, a solution would be sought, but I'd realize the child was not the perpetrator.

[Hekate]

139. Flip it over and use it for my next grocery list. Waste no paper!

There's a zillion flyers that come home with the kids, so I wouldn't get too agitated, frankly.

Beyond that, the schools schedule the cafeteria/assembly halls for various meetings, everything from Boy Scouts (they have to pay now, since they discriminate) to informative panels on why we should incorporate as a city (we finally did).

I'm MUCH more concerned about whether the high schools notify the parents about the "opt-out" provision on No Child Left Behind, so they can refuse to let their kids' personal info go to the DOD.

Hekate

[southerncrone]

141. I noticed that one apple on the flyer doesn't look so happy about religion!

Or maybe it's relationships or rejoicing he doesn't like!

The ACLU should be involved in this, too. This clearly violates the separation of church & state.

What happens is some of the kids talk about wanting to do this & other kids want to do it too, even though their parents might be against it. The kids don't understand why they can't do what their friends want to do & it causes tension between the child & parents that don't want their children to participate in the church brain-washing activities. It is a family division tactic that the churchs use to make parents the bad guy if they won't allow their kids to come to church.

[orpupilofnature57]

146. Sacrilege of God & Country !! Shrub Tactic

Solicitation of Minors for any reason should be against the law.

[Bzzzz]

162. Probably The First Thing I Would Do...

is contact the ACLU.

[renie408]

163. Something similar happened here

Towards the end of school, the elementary school handed out flyers for 'His Camp', a religious based summer camp that had nothing to do with the school. I went down and talked to the prinicpal. She apologized, said she just hadn't thought about it and said it would never happen again.

[davsand]

164. That is a flier for ONE MORE thing I don't send my kid to.

I dunno--we get fliers all the time for stuff like softball camps, soccer camps, pee-wee football and dance camps. If it is something useful to my kid--great. If not, I either toss it or let her have it for drawing paper.

:shrug:

Maybe I'm too tired today to "get it," but this seems like just one more piece of paper amidst the stacks that come home in a given week. I admit we live in a rural area, and sending notes home with the kids is just something that happens. When we get ready for softball season (a club sport) we'll probably send notes home with the kids--it is one way of getting the message to parents that might have an interest.

I live in an area where one of the seminal cases regarding religion in school ran all the way to the US Supreme Court (McCollum v. Board of Education, School District 71 (1948) In a vote of 6-1, the US Supreme Court agreed with the idea of prohibiting religious education in public schools during the school day.

I'm gonna borrow from About.com here:

"...This decision held first that refusing to assist religion should not be construed as hostility to religion and second that such refusal is part of the doctrine of separation of church and state. This decision is not well known in comparison to other cases, but it made use of very important principles which would keep coming up again and again in future church-state separation cases.

More importantly, this case established that the First Amendment (with its clause prohibiting an establishment of religion by the government) applied to the states through the due process clause of Fourteenth Amendment. Without the ruling in this decision, state governments would not be bound to abide by the separation of church and state.


What separates this activity in Madison from what happened in the McCollum case, is the fact that the kids are NOT mandated to attend, and this religious activity is not physically happening at the school. While I do feel that the schools may be promoting one church over another by sending home fliers for one specific church, THAT is not my fight. Let the churches who AREN'T getting fliers distributed by the school file a lawsuit.

Like I said, I may be missing something here.




Laura

Oh--and if you want to see a bit more about how the KIDS feel on the subject check this Time article out:


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,886578,00.html

[Virginia Dare]

168. That's flirting with being unconsitutional...

I hope somebody sues over this. It's not the school's job to shill for churches.

But to answer the question, I'd probably be momentarily pissed off before I stuck it in the recycling bin along with 90% of the other crap that I pull out of the backpack.