An Awful Lot of Point-Making Going On.

[Guaranteed]

Yes, I would agree that ultimately we all have a right to just walk right out of Circuit City after we make a purchase without having to prove anything, as long as we've done nothing significant to arouse suspicion. We have made our purchase, the deal is done, and no one can keep you on the premises when you haven't done anything wrong.

But, you know what? If the guy at the door stops you and wants to see your receipt, why not just show him? Yes, yes- we all know you don't have to. But is it really THAT big of a deal to take the extra ten seconds and be on your way with a smile, instead of getting into a big-brouhaha with the guy and getting the cops involved? No, it isn't. You retain your rights, but try using them when it matters. When your dad is outside having a heart attack, and you need to get him to the hospital, then you can tell the door guy to fuck off. Until then, why not shut the fuck up and just be a decent person?

That goes for asking questions of John Kerry, too. So you've got a couple of real concerns that you want to get to the bottom of with him, and he's right there to clear it up for you. Good. Go up to the mic and let him know about those concerns. Be pointed, give it to him straight. Nothing's stopping you from doing that. But don't start freaking out and yelling and whatnot- giving people a REASON to stop you- unless you're, unfairly, not given that opportunity. Again, save the scene-making for when your rights are really being trampled on. Until then, why not just be a decent, well-reasoned non-attention-seeking person?

And finally, there's no reason to be going into an airport wearing a circuit board complete with blinking lights and a battery and holding Play-Doh. Might you, arguably, have a right to be in a public place doing such a thing? Sure. But, if you do, and people ask you questions, it might be a good idea to answer them, just to be considerate. I'd also say that an airport is pretty much the last public place you'd want to show off your rights as an American in. Those people are just tense. They drink a lot of coffee. So, why not save the outrage for the brand-new, top-of-the-line outside-the-body pacemaker that you have to wear to keep your heart going, when the piece of crap at the counter asks you what the hell you think you're doing? Freak out then. Tell them to shut the hell up, and you need it to live. Until then, though, it might be a good idea to just keep those rights reserved, instead of exercising them to their full extent.


We've got rights. Yes. We're Americans. But, honestly, you don't need to go out of your way to prove that by being a fucking asshole, a loudmouth, or just plain scary. You're making a mockery of them using them so carelessly, and, besides, we know- the point that we have natural rights has been made over the course of centuries. So, please- shut the hell up until it matters. Enough with the point-making.

[kenny blankenship]

1. God bless the point makers!

If it weren't for point makers we'd have no rights at all.
(Now enjoy the rights other people's refusal to knuckle under won for you)

[Guaranteed]

4. I'm sorry, but the Circuit City guy didn't do a damned thing for me.

Neither did Andrew Meyer.

Those folks aren't doing anybody any favors. They make those of us who really care about our rights look petty. They abuse them with their wolf-crying.

You want to talk about real leaders, people who stand up in the face of authority for what's right? You look to your Rosa Park's, your MLK's, your Gandhi's. And there are probably plenty of no names out there who have done just as much for our basic freedoms as they did. But the difference is that they stood up for something when it really mattered. They weren't just out for attention, or trying to be assholes.

Andrew Meyer and the Circuit City guy? You can't even compare them.

[kenny blankenship]

9. Taser boy does nothing for me either but tasering him was wrong

Circuit City guy stood up for you --and you don't deserve it.

Star Simpson wasn't a point maker because, as far as I know, she wasn't trying to make any special point by wearing her L.E.D shirt.

But you led with Circuit City guy, and he has been vindicated. The police dept. dropped charges against him in exchange for a promise not to sue them. PLEASE DON'T SUE US! That says it all as far as the wrongful arrest issue is concerned.

[Guaranteed]

11. Circuit City guy didn't do a damned thing.

I had the right to walk out of any store last year, and I still have it today. I've always known it. Somehow, I just never felt the need to exercise it.

And, for the record, yes, I do deserve that right. Maybe more than some- just for not feeling the need to be an asshole and prove it.

[TahitiNut]

12. It's easy to say that in hindsight.

At the time, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, and Mohandas Gandhi were regarded as trouble-makers and their actions were regarded as stupid and pointless by the vast majority. After all, the bus driver was only doing his job, right?

All protest movements started as very unpopular activism - they wouldn't have been necessary if they were popular! MLK was a master of getting media coverage and having his protests witnessed. He broke the law countless times and "disrupted" the orderly civil life of many people frequently.

Absolutely every one of them were regarded with disdain and disgust by the vast majority. Every one of them.

The "reasoning" was identical. What's the big deal? Just go along with it - it's done every day.

[Guaranteed]

15. The bus driver was only doing his job?

Being forced to sit in a particular place while using public transportation is entirely different than being politely asked, along with everyone else, to show your receipt before leaving a store.

Black people were denied access to facilities that other people used simply because of the color of their skin.

You HONESTLY think there is any kind of comparison here?

Maybe that's part of the problem.

[TahitiNut]

16. Don't try to tell me what those days were like. I lived them!

Furthermore, don't try to tell me what I think. Read what I said! People forget that ALL PROTESTS are unpopular! At the time. Again, if they weren't then they wouldn't be needed. If you can't comprehend that simple fact then you'll probably never learn.

If you can't read the sarcasm dripping from "After all, the bus driver was only doing his job, right?" then just pretend there's a :sarcasm: tag there. I personally regard that as unnecessary rhetorical 'training wheels' in some cases.

I heard EACTLY the same kind of mealy-mouthed bullshit critcizing Rosa Parks and Dr. King back then that I now read on DU criticizing Code Pink, Cindy Sheehan, taser-guy, and other protestors. I attribute it to callow youth, arrogance, a complete lack of an understaning of history, or bigotry -- or some combination of those. The absence of perspective and the revisionist history is appalling.

[Guaranteed]

17. Yes, you must be right. Someday, Circuit City guy will be revered

by those who have such hectic schedules that they can't take 10 seconds to simply smile at the person at the door and show them the stupid receipt.

There oughta be a holiday.

[Mythsaje]

28. And to think that I once put you on ignore because of that stupid draft argument...

Great post. I heartily concur.

[emilyg]

2. Kick

[arendt]

3. Stop spreading the lie that she did not answer the question. She answered. They let her walk away.

And NOBODY ELSE in the airport went ballistic. Just the cops.

So how was she supposed to know anything was amiss?

Stop buying into the terra, terra, terra frame.

arendt

[Guaranteed]

7. Don't know where you're getting your information.

Star Simpson, 19, was wearing a black hooded sweatshirt and approached an airport employee in Terminal C at 8 a.m. to inquire about an incoming flight from Oakland, according to Major Scott Pare of the State Police. She was holding a lump of what looked like putty in her hands. The employee asked about the plastic circuit board on her chest, and Simpson walked away without responding, Pare said."

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/09/mit_student_arr.html

[Nailzberg]

14. can you cite this?

Every report I've seen has stated she walked away without answering the question.

[patrice]

5. A caller on AAR, who was there and saw it all, said that the guy at Kerry's

event rushed the mic and took it away from the previous "last" questioner in an aggressive manner. He is known amongst his cohort for making everything about him. Yes the campus cops over-reacted, what with recent campus shootings, and though being obnoxious isn't grounds for tazing, rushing the speakers' stand would make lots of people nervous.

[Kazak]

6. Good point!

;)

[Guaranteed]

8. Ha ha!

Touche.

[Demit]

10. In other words, we should keep our powder dry.

And only use our rights when—what? There's a group vote on whether it's an okay time for us as individuals to use them?

You are pretty much advocating for common sense: actions have consequences; act like a jerk and you have a part in what happens as a result. I couldn't agree more. But I don't think that 'keeping our rights in reserve instead of exercising them' is a very good idea at all. I'd rather see our rights in action, being used, so that I know they're still there. I'll still pass judgment on people as jerks & assholes, but sometimes it takes jerks & assholes to demonstrate that freedoms are still there for the rest of us.

[Guaranteed]

13. ....No. It's not about keeping powder dry.

It's about living in a civil society and not creating controversy where there need be none. It's about getting along with other people while understanding those rights that you have as an American. If Circuit City guy had needed to run out of the store for a good reason, surely no one would have held it against him that he refused to show his receipt. But, with the way that he did what he did, he was just acting like an asshole. He didn't make any point, or right a wrong. He just caused a lot of drama, despite the fact that he could have done it anytime. It was just stupid.

Those rights are there- and, when they need to be used, they will be. A time and place for everything. Pick your hill to die on.

[Demit]

18. Those rights are there? You mean, like habeas corpus is still there?

The idiots and the jerks are the ones who constantly test the laws and refine the definition of our rights. In that respect, they are a necessary component of a democracy. In life, I'm afraid they're just unavoidable, lol.

Look, I had no sympathy for either the CC guy or the insistent student at the microphone. So I'm not defending them at this late date. All I'm objecting to is your advice to people to sort of self-censor in the matter of their rights. I think that's a danger. Jerks are not going to listen, they'll continue to be jerks 'cause that's what they do, it's their dna imprint. But timid people might interpret your advice as 'Hush, don't make a fuss' and won't ever know when is exactly the right time when it's okay to exercise their rights, and so they never might. You want to be careful in elevating the importance of civil society over the exercise of civil rights—that's the marker of an authoritarian society. The CC guy and the students were jerks, but I'd rather they be free to be that way.

[Hissyspit]

19. Awful lot of judgmentalism going on. n/t

[Exultant Democracy]

20. Authoritarians hate it when uppity people rock the boat.

Damn them uppity trouble makers, why can't they just be nice.:puke:

[spoony]

22. When rocking the boat

the rocker should probably have some purpose aside from publicity seeking or getting people wet for no good reason.

[Mythsaje]

29. Not necessarily...

Real boats rock and sometimes people need a reminder of this fact.

[Exultant Democracy]

37. I couldn't have said it better.

[spoony]

42. See that's the thing

People think they're reminding us, but they aren't. We know. It's not necessary to splash someone in the face to show them water is wet. Making redundant and ultimately self-aggrandising statements doesn't bother people because it's reminding us of some uncomfortable truth, it bothers people because it's annoying, pretentious, and often winds up screwing up people's days.

[Mythsaje]

43. ROFL

WE may understand these things, but do you think the average citizen thinks of them?

The status quo needs shaken up on a regular basis, otherwise complacency takes the place of consideration of the realities of things. If people didn't question or oppose rules on occasion, there are just too many sheeple who'll go right along with anything up to and including digging their own grave.

[OneBlueSky]

21. I shop at Costco, a pretty decent company, and it's standard policy . . .

for someone to scan your receipt when you leave, generally to make sure that any expensive items are included thereon . . . I've never had a problem with it, and apparently neither do other Costco customers . . . no bid deal, imo . . .

[Silver Gaia]

25. In fact, Costco's policy actually worked in my favor recently.

It wasn't a big ticket item. It was just a rather small $25.00 bottle of lotion. But I'd been charged for two when I only bought one. The bag-checker noticed, marked my receipt accordingly, and directed me to a cashier where I received an immediate refund. The whole thing took less than 5 minutes. Had I gotten home and THEN realized I'd been overcharged, I would've been pissed and would've had to drive all the way back out to Costco to make the attempt to get my money back. I probably would've just blown it off and stayed pissed rather than go through all of that. As it was, it saved me 25 bucks and a lot of hassle, and left me with a good feeling about the store.

I don't see the problem. What sort of invasion of privacy is it for someone to check your bag to make sure you have the things you're supposed to have in there as you leave the store? You've already placed everything you bought on the counter in full view of the cashier, the baggers, and other customers. On top of that, every single item you purchased is listed on the receipt, along with some identifying information about you (unless you paid cash), and all of that was, I'm sure, recorded in a computer database somewhere, so what's the big deal with someone checking the bag? That's a minor thing, comparatively, IMO. And it could always work in your favor, like it did for me.

[WilliamPitt]

23. Point made!

:P

[DeepModem Mom]

24. A GREAT BIG K&R

[Warren DeMontague]

26. As Ty Cobb said, "The Children of America Need Heroes". And Mumia's totally last week.

Here we've got a fine roster of shameless publicity-seekers and/or clueless morons and/or out and out assholes who we can hold up as vanguards in our fight for freedom.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. I actually was thinking about this before, too: I think there's a generational thing going on.

I think many of us on the 'left' who grew up with the 60s and the 70s and the attendant social action and change may be misreading some of this stuff, much of it coming out of the myspace generation.

There has been a cultural and generational shift, over the past few decades, with regards to fame and media exposure, and I think many people (like myself) who deliberately keep themselves a good distance from popular culture may not see it. One thread that links many of these stories- circuit city guy and Kerry guy, for sure- is that they both went into their situations with an undeniable knowledge that what they did could -in fact, probably would- get them attention.

And we have moved into an era where, for many people, ANY attention is good attention, as long as it's MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF attention. We have millions of people in this country who would just about fucking DIE to get themselves on tv in any way, shape, or form.. which is why you have people willing to eat bugs or lick bats or set their pubic hair on fire or send their kids off to some Lord of the Flies nightmare if it means they can appear on "reality tv" :eyes:..

...because for millions of Americans today, EXPOSURE is "God". It is the pinnacle of, well, whatever they have mutated 'achievement' into. To be on tv, to get your fucking FACE and NAME out there for your requisite 15 minutes, is to WIN. To these folks.

And so you get Circuit City guy, who may have been pissed and may have genuinely thought that standing up against reciept checks was a serious blow to "the man", but he knew when the shit-storm came down he would have a ton of hits on his blog.

And you get Andrew Meyer, who I'm not convinced has a shred of political commitment or belief in his body; but he sure knows how to stir up shit, and attention. Wow, dude! Don't taze me, Bro!

The kid at the airport with the LED "art".. I think the jury is still out. Given it was Boston, I think there's a chance she may have known what she was doing. She may have deliberately staged this as a "stunt", which is what one her friends or relatives called it in one news piece. But I'll give her the benefit of the doubt until the facts come in.

Still, I think many of us from the social justice era may be seeing civil disobedience and meaningful political action where what is really going on is some kids trying to milk the culture's celebrity teat.

JMO.

[KittyWampus]

33. Both of your posts here are VERY insightful. Honestly, your post deserves its own thread

discussion.

Posting here to get back to it and think some more on it.

[Katherine Brengle]

30. Urgent memo: some things really aren't as important as others!

Good post. While I think is vital to demand our rights, some of the things that are construed as "demanding our rights" are just plain stupid.

Fight some real oppression, not the receipt checker. And by the way, stores aren't public property, so you *do* have to abide by the rules they set if you want to freaking shop there.

[karlrschneider]

35. So private stores have the right to refuse service to...who? (per their 'rules')

??

[the other one]

31. Well said. Recommended. It occurs to me that

in some places individuals can be licensed to carry an unconcealed weapon, but if a person so licensed were to do so they might be arrested by the police for creating a pubic nuisance.

One law may indeed violate another law, but it is the police' responsibility to maintain peace and order, so they are justified in arresting a person who defends his personal rights in a threatening manner.

[unblock]

32. stand up to require mechants to post signs!

the thing about the circuit city saga is that they can avoid these situation simply by posting a sign at the entrance that states that you must show receipt on leaving, or even that all bags are subject to search. if it's stated at the entrance, you are agreeing to it by entering.

to me, it's well worth going to jail and all that to preserve basic freedoms. but is it worth all that hassle just to require a stupid merchant to post a stupid sign? the principle is the same, but for me, it goes under the "pick you battles" category.

[Buns_of_Fire]

41. Thing is, I don't even see these three "battles" AS battles.

Skirmishes, at best, and that's giving them much more benefit of the doubt than I think they deserve. I see stubbornness at Circuit City, obnoxiousness at a rally, and near-Darwin-level stupidity at Logan International.

They got their fifteen minutes of fame. May they go forth and prosper from this point forward. I'll content myself with sawing off the base of the statue rather than trying to knock off its head.

[karlrschneider]

34. In other words, you prefer others do the work to help you keep your civil/human rights.

Got it.

[Guaranteed]

38. No, actually I'm asking these particular people to stop their "work."

Because they're doing more damage than good.

The Jena 6? They're doing a great job.

[baby_mouse]

36. NO.

Rights, as a legal concept, exist specifically not to be violated. That's what they are for. They exist as a cognitive skeleton around which to build much subtle, case-based legislation. A right that can be removed or changed or ignored at the whim of authority figures however convincing the extenuating circumstances may appear to isn't a right it's merely a habit or a convention.

[OzarkDem]

39. Why is DU wasting time on this?

Aren't there a lot more constructive things we can talk about?

[Jed Dilligan]

40. If we could all just act like reasonable people

life would be totally perfect, wouldn't it? The cops and politicians and business owners are ready and waiting with their hearts full of fairness and maturity, can't we just meet them in the middle?

I know I love blandness, and it's fun to fit in!

[JitterbugPerfume]

44. good post

k&r