"The site of the attack must not be a backdrop for President Ahmadinejad to posture"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

-Barack Obama

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/09/23/america/24letter.php

I only ask that those of you consider these remarks when you are pillorying Hillary for her remarks about Mr. Ahmadinejad

[EFerrari]

1. I find them both equally disgusting.

They are both smart people and they know better than this.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. I Am Only Here To Give Context And Put Things In Perspective

PEACE

[EFerrari]

3. Sorry. Grumpy day. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. They Are All Politicians To Me

Now it's off to a movie...

PEACE

[Horse with no Name]

5. They are pandering.

And I detest it.

[tsuki]

12. Here. Here.

[glowing]

4. Are you serious... Now, what.. Iran attacked us on 9/11.... man we

are heading to Iran if either of these two get the coveted seat.

[jobycom]

7. You ask too much. Hatred is easier and more fun than factual understanding.

There are people still claiming Clinton supported a ban on flag burning.

[Cha]

27. Yeah, I seem to remember

that you had the knives out for Dean a primary ago..am I wrong on that?

[jobycom]

43. You are wrong on that.. nt

[Cha]

51. That's good to know that..

I misremembered that you always had something unkind to say about Dean.

[jobycom]

54. One can support a candidate without slandering other candidates.

I never supported Dean, but I didn't accuse him of being a Republican or traitor or any of the lies and bullshit some people spread against Clinton around here. If I had a legitimate objection, I stated it, stated evidence, and left it at that.

Now, since you tried to divert the discussion, what do you think about the slanders of Clinton, and in this case, what do think of the hatred that has people condemn Clinton for the same thing that Obama did? Are you one of the Clinton slanderers, calling her Republican lite or a corporate shill or any of that crap?

[Cha]

55. I wasn't diverting the discussion..

you were talking about the hillary haters or whatever and I thought it was hypocritical of you when I seemed to remember every thread about Dean I could count on you and some others to get on and go negative.

But, you said that wasn't you..my bad.

I don't like hillary..I've known her since she's been my senator in 2000 and I don't trust her.

We all have people we support and we don't like others trying to bring them down..it's not just hillary.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Pathetic and contemptible political pandering to the right by both.

It's going to for them to get much lower without digging a hole.

[EFerrari]

9. This kind of rhetoric is why Gore Vidal says there is no left in this country

but only two right wings. They are TEACHING people to expect right wing rhetoric.

[TwilightZone]

10. "Death to America"

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/2007/09/23/2007-09-23_irans_ahmadinejad_issues_new_threats_aga.html

Are we really certain that Barack and Hillary are on the wrong side of this issue?

[EFerrari]

13. Yes, we are. n/t

[TwilightZone]

15. Ok then.

n/t

[EFerrari]

19. The thing is, the IAEA says they have no nuke program.

The guy's supposed threats to Israel have been debunked as has his supposed Holocaust denial.

We're being led down yet another garden path and surely people as smart as Clinton and Obama know this.

It's just infuriating. We have no reason whatsoever to go to war with Iran. None. Zip. Zilch.

[TwilightZone]

24. I agree that there is zero reason to go to war with Iran. Zilch. None.

I might, however, see the reasoning behind not wanting him to posture at Ground Zero.

[EFerrari]

29. Think about how this is being framed.

If we had a sane government -- if Clinton was still in office, this could be used as a moment of reconciliation. Imagine how powerful that could be.

But we have Commander Cuckoobannanas in office and instead, it's being used as a way to incite antogonism. :shrug:

[TwilightZone]

32. I'm not positive that Bill Clinton would have agreed to it, either.

I could certainly be wrong, and if he's made a statement to the contrary, please let me know.

I don't think Barack and Hillary are trying to incite antagonism. Ahmadinejad doesn't need any help there. I also don't think that their stated intent - that they don't want to give him a high-profile photo op at Ground Zero - is pandering to anyone. I think it's how they see the situation.

[EFerrari]

35. I don't think they are trying to incite antogonism but more,

that they are trying to stay in tune with the drumbeat that BushCo has already set up.

And, we only get Ahmadinejad through the filter of the corporate media. We have no idea who this guy really is. :shrug:

Maybe you're right about Clinton but that would have put him on the dumb side of diplomacy, too. (He did bomb Iraq for his whole term. That wasn't very diplomatic.)

[TwilightZone]

38. Diplomacy doesn't really require a photo op at Ground Zero.

I could be entirely wrong, but I just don't see it as being inextricably connected to the drumbeat to war. I see it as a separate entity. I think our candidates see Ahmadinejad as a master propagandist and don't want to give him a very visible platform.

Do I agree with that? Not necessarily. I do understand why Obama and Clinton are taking this position, but then, my view of Ahmadinejad is probably less benign than yours.

[sufrommich]

25. Do you have a link to the debunking of the

Holocaust denial?

[EFerrari]

28. I don't have one bookmarked, no. But have read credible ones

from sources I trust here. If you find one, please post it to this thread and I will bookmark it. We're going to need it because Cheney et all haven't made enough dough over our people's bodies yet.

There was just a thread here last night. If I can remember which one, I will post the link. I'll got look now.

[Yael]

26. When was his holocaust denial debunked?

Last I saw, he was hosting the likes of David Duke for the Tehran holocaust denial conference.

[EFerrari]

30. I just saw it here in GD yesterday. I don't have a link, sorry.

But I can go fish in a little while.

[cali]

42. Never happened

he's really, really not a holocaust denier or anti-semite. Honest, he really isn't. He's just maligned. He's a great humanitarian.

[cali]

40. Please don't spread something that is

simply not true. Just 2 weeks ago Ahmadinejad reiterated his Holocaust denial. He held a Holocaust denial Conference with some of the most vile deniers, including David Duke, in attendance. There's ample evidence. Don't believe me? Read Juan Cole on the Holocaust Denial Conference.

Ahmadinejad is not an admirable character. To put it mildly.

But then he doesn't have to be to go to Columbia or Ground Zero. If being an admirable person was the prerequsite, the Saudis and others would be barred.

What's disappointing to me is that I think both Hillary and Obama could have seized this to make some healthy statements along the line of "We're glad to have President Ahmadinejad visit the site where so many lost their lives to terrorism, blah, blah.

[cali]

44. He is a Holocaust denier

and yes, anti-semitic
<snip>

Mr Ahmadinejad made the comments while speaking on live TV in the south-eastern city of Zahedan.

"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

He called for Europe or North America - even Alaska - to host a Jewish state, not the Middle East.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told reporters Mr Ahmadinejad's remarks were "shocking".
<snip>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4529198.stm


Iran: Jewish Leader Criticizes President For Holocaust Denial
By Golnaz Esfandiari

President Ahmadinejad speaking to foreign diplomats in Tehran on 13 February
(epa)
The head of Iran's Jewish community, Haroun Yashayaei, has sent a letter complaining to President Mahmud Ahmadinejad over his Holocaust denial comments. Yashayaei said the remarks have shocked the international community and struck fear within Iran's small Jewish community.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/02/fb25e81f-bce9-4291-acdb-cf2c5c69fe92.html

There's a wealth of Ahmadinejad statements both about the Holocaust and Israel that should leave little doubt about his thinking on the subject. Quite simply, he's a hater. Does that make Iran a threat? No, but it shouldn't be brushed under the rug to make a prettier narrative.

Edited to add Juan Cole's remark:

Anyone who reads this column knows that I deeply disagree with Ahmadinejad's policies and am not interested in defending him on most things. I profoundly disagree with his characterization of Israel, which is a legitimate United Nations member state, and find his Holocaust denial monstrous. But this quite false charge that he is genocidal is being promoted by Right-Zionists in and out of Congress as a preparatory step to getting up a US war against Iran on false pretences.
http://www.juancole.com/2007/06/ahmadinejad-i-am-not-anti-semitic.html

[treestar]

48. "Death to Iran"

So we don't put it that way, but it's more likely to happen to them at our hands than the opposite.

I'm sure many a right winger, at least, in private, says stuff like that all the time.

[Joanne98]

11. Here we go again. Somebody give them a needle and thread..

TO SEW THEIR LIPS TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EFerrari]

14. I may just have to do something else for the next year

because my head is going to explode and I sort of need it.

[madrchsod]

16. it`s really fucking simple--do`t cover him at the site!

yes don`t send in the clowns to cover him at the site...gee if life was only so simple.

[cali]

41. Yep. I've been saying that for days. nt

[AtomicKitten]

17. Obama's statement was downright anorexic compared to HRC's bellicosity on Iran.

[gateley]

18. I think he would have used the opportunity to show what a 'nice guy' he is

in an attempt to gain anti-Iran war sentiment from Americans (like there isn't enough anti-Iran war sentiment now).

OR....what if he used the opportunity to proclaim he was actually paying tribute to the 'martyrs' who were doing Allah's will?

It would have been interesting to see, but I pretty much agree with the decision not to let him do it.

Don't know how I'd feel if I'd lost a loved on in that attack...

[EFerrari]

20. Iran did not attack us on 9/11. Iran lost citizens in that attack.

And, Iran sent us an outpouring of solidarity in our grief. They held vigils for our dead.

There is no reason for this disrespect of Iran. None.

[gateley]

23. I stand corrected. nt

[WinkyDink]

37. Perhaps you are unaware that the anti-Semitic MA is nevertheless smart enough not to praise the

alleged killers.

[bullimiami]

21. no. thats reserved for bush and his cronies.

[EFerrari]

22. Bingo! n/t

[Benhurst]

31. Disgraceful.

Shame on them both.

Republican Lite is not good enough.

I am saddened and disgusted.

[EFerrari]

33. I'd appreciate any help I can get for the debunking of all the stuff

that Ahmadinejad has supposedly done, like Holocaust denial. If I'm wrong, I'd like to know. Have to scoot to work right now.

But, the media attacks on him are just like the ones on Hugo Chavez. Usually when you track them down, it's baloney. Probably tax-funded baloney.

[cali]

45. I've documented it in this thread.

There's documentation everywhere. I'd be glad to provide more.

[TwilightZone]

46. Re: Holocaust denial....

The president at Columbia U. said that he's going to ask Ahmadinejad to explain his Holocaust-denial claims, so he apparently doesn't think they've been debunked.

Edit: typo

[EFerrari]

52. Have you ever met a university president?

:)

Okay, thanks. I'm going to see if I can dig up that thread.

[cali]

53. How about responding to

the evidence of Ahmadinejad's Holocaust denial that I posted, including from Juan Cole?

[Bitwit1234]

34. Yeah...it is for Americans to use as a backdrop and rallying point.

[WinkyDink]

36. Yeah, because Bush put paid to THAT opportunistic maneuver.

[RestoreGore]

39. And on the day of the Iranian festival of love too...

Per my research of the autumnal equinox which is today, the autumnal or September equinox marks the first day of Mehr on the Iranian calendar. It is one of the Iranian festivals called Jashne Mihragen(sp?) or the festival of sharing or love. I personally believe Ahmadimejad may have been trying to bluff us with his request to go to the WTC, but then again he may have been trying to make a gesture to the PEOPLE of this country even though he despises its leadership. And what did we do? We slapped the people of Iran who have done nothing to us in the face. And now these "politicians" can do nothing but pander instead of seeing an opportunity wasted.

[treestar]

47. It shouldn't be a backdrop for anyone to posture

Including the Chimperor

[Richard Steele]

49. That's OUR posturing site! Let him find his own!

:sarcasm:

[AnnieBW]

50. As opposed to everyone else who postures there

Like *, Ghouliani, etc.