"Bad Medicine"

[bobbolink]

I've been reading the book by this title, which is about the Navajo Nation, and how the hantavirus was discouvered. During the book, there are sections about how illness is treated among the Navajo.

As we are all discussing health care (and the lack of it), I thought it would be interesting to post this excerpt, to broaden the discussion to include not only cultural issues, but how health care in general could be improved.

This is from page 91:

"Each of the people in this room is aware--to a greater or lesser extent--that one of the most basic differences between Navajo and Western beliefs when it comes to healing has to do with the contrasts between the traditional Navajo healing ceremony and the Western idea of "hospital". In the Navajo culture there is the Sing--the healing ceremony wherein the patient is attended by family and friends....talked to....touched....loved. There are essential human sounds associated with the Sing: the sounds of singing and the rhythmic pulse of water drums and the soft shish of rattles. And there are the earthy smells of burning sage and other herbs. In the white man's hospital, on the other hand, the patient is more often than not ignored--sometimes this is on account of a language barrier, with the Navajo patient, to be sure--but even when this is not the case, the person who is ill is often left feeling ignored. And then there are the prescribed times--the "visiting hours" --for relatives and friends, times that often do not coincide with the times the visitor may be able to attend. And instead of being touched and loved, the patient is more apt to be poked and stuck with needles. What sounds there are are most likely the impersonal beeps of monitors and the foreign and mechanical voice of some invisible speaker coming over a paging system. The smells are not of the earth, rather they are strange and unpleasant smells, those of disinfectant and of death."

[Richard Steele]

1. K&R

[Richard D]

2. And from what I understand . . .

. . . the purpose of the Sing is to deal directly with the cause of disease, which is disharmony with oneself and being out of harmony with the community and the world. So the Sing is to restore harmony with restored health being the response to being reconnected with self and others. Also, rather than just a song as we might expect, the sing is a community event that can take days to accomplish. It's also one of the main events where the whole community will come together as the Dineh on their land are often separated by great distances.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

5. That sounds like a really nice custom

But, frankly, I'll take science.

I believe there's a real place for personal faith, but my surgeon got rid of my cancer. I doubt that the Sing could do that.

[bobbolink]

8. The point is....

that harmony itself is an important factor.

We don't all have to be Dineh to recognize some of what they have to teach us.

I also don't care for the superstition part of it... but that doesn't mean there isn't something there that is missing from Western medicine that we could benefit from.

[OzarkDem]

9. Agree

Evidence based medicine is still the best route, though its also good to treat the whole patient and make sure they have a good quality of life during illness.

Modern medicine is adopting both, but its hard to ask them to take on so much when our system of health care is under stress due to the growing burden of uncompensated care.

[bobbolink]

12. When we're discussing health care plans and bills, NOW is the time

to talk about what all we see as important, and what all we want included.

Adding it later is much harder.
And a waste of energy.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

26. Diseases are caused by microorganisms, not "disharmony".

The germ theory of disease is fairly widely accepted nowadays...

The Sing may help the patient feel better, which may help somewhat - the placebo effect does have some value - but it generally won't do anything about the cause of the disease.

[TalkingDog]

36. "Diseases are caused by microorganisms" Funniest thing I've read all day.

If diseases were caused by microorganisms we would all be dead. Microorganisms are literally in and on every micrometer of our bodies.

So how is it that many of us are still well and quite healthy?

Let's just suppose that it is a susceptibility to the microorganisms that is the real problem.

And let's take that theory even further and consider reasons that some people may be more susceptible and some are less so.

Stress has been found to be a major factor in susceptibility to many diseases. Dozens of studies have shown that stress can alter the levels of certain biochemical markers in the body.

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/stressinf.htm
>They also say that increased stress may lessen the effectiveness of certain vaccines and can confound some studies of certain illnesses that affect the immune system, such as AIDS and autoimmune diseases.

"The evidence so far suggests that while the immune changes associated with psychological stress are generally small, they look like they're important enough to have biological consequences and increase health risks," explained Ronald Glaser, professor of medical microbiology and immunology at Ohio State University and lead author of the study.

.....

Researchers know that psychological stress can alter the level of certain hormones. These alterations induced by stress are responsible for the changes in cytokine concentrations since stress hormones alter the synthesis and the release of the cytokines, the authors explained.

....
They also said that enough is known now to show that certain changes in lifestyle can increase a person's resistance to some infectious diseases. Most of these changes -- gaining social support and companionship, maintaining a proper diet, regular exercise and enough sleep -- are not expensive, Glaser said.<


So let's see. A number of research studies say that getting rest, having a loving, caring support system and reducing stress say.....by being in a familiar environment with familiar sounds, smells and sights.....somewhat like oh.... A SING.... can help the body's immune response in a positive way.

I truly, truly dislike ethno-centric unthinking, knee-jerk responses. That kind of small minded crap is why the world is in the shape it's in today. If you can't think outside your own tiny world view, do us all a favor, at least consider that you just MIGHT not know everything.


My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. I can't believe I'm reading this!

"If diseases were caused by microorganisms we would all be dead. Microorganisms are literally in and on every micrometer of our bodies."

Please tell me than on reflection you realise why this is total, utter nonsense?

Diseases (not all diseases - some are caused by malnutrition, or genetic factors, or all sorts of other things - but most) are caused by microorganisms; not all microorganisms cause disease.


As you say, stress and related factors can increase susceptibility to disease, and as such placebos like a Sing *can* help with recovery - if you bother to actually read my post, you will see that I've already pointed this out - but their value is fairly limited.


My thinking isn't ethnocentric, it's evidence-centric. Scientific experiments are scientific experiments regardless of the ethnic origin of the person performing them. It's not knee-jerk, either - it's supported by the last hundred years of medical science.

When you say "You might not no everything", do you in fact mean "you know nothing?" The former is, obviously, true, but doesn't refute the fact that one of the thing I *do* know (very, very roughly) how disease and recovery works.

[TalkingDog]

38. You are changing the parameters of your argument. Bad, BAD doggie!

You can't back track and say, "buh..bubh....I meant to say....what I meant was...let me explain...."

You stated, quite emphatically, that diseases are caused by microorganism. This is clearly untrue as you are NOW so quick to point out.

And if you read the link I provided, you will find that even those head-in-the-clouds scientists agree that diseases are caused by a "disharmony" in the body, i.e. chemical imbalances caused by the emotional imbalance (disharmony) of negative stress which makes SOME PEOPLE, susceptible to the effects of microorganisms.

As I stated before: Narrow minded and lacking critical thinking. If you are going to mount a successful argument you need to stop using the right-wing tactic of making broad general statements that sound correct on the surface while belittling the conceptual thrust of the person you disagree with.

My Favorite Master Artist: Karen Parker GhostWoman Studios

[knitter4democracy]

49. What's wrong with the placebo effect?

I see scientists discounting it all the time, but I've been through it myself and know how strong it is. When I was in labor with our first, I couldn't get her head out from the pain (natural labor). My hubby, a med student at the time, told the doctor in a loud voice to go get some Emla cream (can't remember the spelling--an anesthetic cream) and then in a lower voice so I couldn't hear that it would be worth it just for the placebo effect. I didn't know that the cream takes half an hour at least to kick in; all I heard was that the cream would work.

Wouldn't you know that it did. The doctor spread it on, I felt instantly better, and I pushed our daughter out and didn't even feel th second degree tear. I did feel every single stitch of the sewing up afterwards, though, and my doctor admitted the next day that the cream could've been toothpaste for all it had done.

Still, powerful thing, that placebo effect. We should use it more.

[ClayZ]

3. When my father was in the hospital...

There were many volunteer musicians who came to play their instruments in the halls. It was difficult to hear them in the rooms over the machines. Some of the more mobile patients could enjoy it, though, and the visitors.

We brought his music to him with a little CD player. It was one time I can remember him smiling with all the horror that was going on. Headphones on and about 10 machines hooked up to him.

Music Therapy as a career is growing fast.

[bobbolink]

7. Music therapy

That would be really good to add to what we want to see included in a comprehensive health care bill!

thanks for bringing this up... it's what I wanted to see.... ideas of what should be added...

[ClayZ]

14. The Healing Gardens

at the University of Washington Hospital are so beautiful, too. I think all hospitals should be like Children's Orthopedic Hospital in Seattle. It is brightly colored walls with lots of ART and lots of giant fish tanks.
It certainly makes going there less scary.

The Art Therapy room there is manned by volunteers. Lots of supplies and kids can loose themselves in art and craft projects. It is a place and time to forget that you are sick and create.

Thanks for this thread. We can all use some healing from our moral abyss that we have been thrown into by our fear mongering government.

K and R

[Warpy]

4. Unfortunately, the most attentive sing will not compensate

for lungs filling up with blood from hantaavirus. However, it was a cluster of cases from a sing at Red Rock State Park that got researchers at UNM on the trail of isolating the pathogen. What once carried a 90% death rate is down to 60%. Some day, there might even be a vaccine.

The role of extended family in their lives was explained to me early on, and I was probably the most lenient nurse in the place when it came to allowing them into the areas I worked in, even though it was against guidelines. They are polite people who knew enough to stay out of the way when I was doing care. I was polite enough not to disturb the sand painting in the tray under the bed or the headphones playing the recording of a sing.

There has got to be a middle road in medical care between sterile efficiency and the care of family and community. Perhaps one day we'll find it.

[NMMNG]

10. I think that "middle road" might be what bobbolink is getting at

Rather than advocating replacing modern medicine with Navajo medicine.

[nam78_two]

35. That is how I read it too.nt

[leftchick]

6. thank you!

k&r!

[bobbolink]

50. And thank you. I'm amazed at how ugly this thread has become.

It says a whole lot about DU, and about liberals in general.

No wonder so many of us have no hope left.

[Cleita]

11. Western medicine has thrown out the spiritual part of healing

in favor of solely the scientific. Traditional medical practices, do combine the the treatment of a patient from both sides. Since many indigenous people have a basic knowledge of the plant and mineral cures available to them and they know what to do. When they consult the shaman, it's to get the spirits involved as well as bind the family together. Westerners think that this is all that is going on, but it's not. It's a combination of medical knowledge combined with the shaman or medicine person's contact with the spirit world to complete the job.

[bobbolink]

13. Very good and important point.

The traditional knowledge of plants is very important for us not to lose sight of!

I was an outsider/observer to a Hawaiian "healing" that was very close to what is described in this excerpt. The woman was dying of cancer, and as they expressed it, they "sang her out". Death is always sad, but to have your family around you, singing you into the next stage.... that has to be much better than all the lonliness and droning of machines.

[ClayZ]

16. That must be intuitive.

We did that for my mother-in-law and for my brother when they were dying. Just singing thier favorite songs as a family around the bed.

It makes me sad to remember.


:cry:

[bobbolink]

18. Yes, it's sad.....but much better memories, yes?

I'm not so sure it's intuitive... I sure haven't seen it except in that one instance.

And, don't forget... there are many of us without families, for whom hospitals and death are very very lonely.

We've so far to go...and much to learn.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

27. Does "spiritual healing" pass double-blind control tests?

Helping a patient feel better by means of placebos may have some value, but it's not substitute for, nor even in most cases an especially valuable corollary to, evidence-based scientific medicine.

[Cleita]

30. That's your problem.

You are talking about substitutes. We are talking about adding spiritual healing to the equation not substitutes.

[knitter4democracy]

51. Haven't you read the studies?

Spiritual guidance, help from family, and music all have passed the EBM test, or so Hubby was told in med school at Case Western. It's all part of the biopsychosocial model, which has been proven in studies.

[Odin2005]

40. There is no "spiritual part of healing" because there is no such thing as "spiritual."

I have no use for the superstitions of primitive societies.

[Cleita]

42. Good for you. So don't participate in spiritual endeavors.

But don't dismiss so readily those people, who do want to participate.

[Katherine Brengle]

15. Very interesting --

I admit I'd never heard of this, but it sounds beautiful.

It would be ideal if we could allow more caring and warmth into medical care in this country - I've been in the hospital, and it's a scary, cold, lonely place that could really benefit from music and love.

[bobbolink]

17. And what could be more healing than love?

What a concept!

I know that a friend had serious surgery in Czechoslovakia, when it was still run by the (dreaded) Communists. After he was out of danger in the hospital, he was sent to a nice place in the mountains to recuperate! That was standard procedure.

Imagine... hiking trails for those who have progressed that far, lots of good books, art materials and music.....

.....or, The USian way.... bogged down in fighting health insurance companies...

Wonder which is more healing...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. Um, medicine, perhaps?

Most illnesses are not psychosomatic. If you take something suffering from a disease, put them in a bed in hospital, and give them the relevant drugs and treatments delivered by androids, their chances of recovery are far, far better than in the most loving, caring non-medical care regime imaginable.

[bobbolink]

46. Actually, modern research shows that LOVE has a great deal to do with it.

As does the absence of love.

[LWolf]

19. The difference between western medicine

and other alternative medicines is this: western medicine diagnoses disease by finding and treating symptoms. (It feels odd to leave the Navajo out of "Western" medical practitioners; there must be a better term.) Other medical practices attempt to heal the source, which is some sort of dis-harmony. This is the underlying foundation of Chinese medicine, Ayurvedic medicine, and many more.

Western medicine is beginning to acknowledge the mind/body connection; here is a <snip> from The American Academy of Family Physicians:


How can my emotions affect my health?
Your body responds to the way you think, feel and act. This is often called the “mind/body connection.” When you are stressed, anxious or upset, your body tries to tell you that something isn’t right. For example, high blood pressure or a stomach ulcer might develop after a particularly stressful event, such as the death of a loved one. The following may be physical signs that your emotional health is out of balance:

* Back pain
* Change in appetite
* Chest pain
* Constipation or diarrhea
* Dry mouth
* Extreme tiredness
* General aches and pains
* Headaches
* High blood pressure
* Insomnia (trouble sleeping)
* Lightheadedness
* Palpitations (the feeling that your heart is racing)
* Sexual problems
* Shortness of breath
* Stiff neck
* Sweating
* Upset stomach
* Weight gain or loss

It's a start, at least. I certainly think that "health care" should include alternative practices and mental health. Most alternative medicine works in cooperation with, not against, western medicine. Treating the symptoms of disease can go hand in hand with various ways of addressing the source of disease; they don't have to be separated.

[TZ]

23. Not this myth again!!

What the hell is stuff like gene therapy if not treating the source of the disease (faulty genes)? Monoclonal antibodies?Cholesterol reducing meds? (reducing arteriol schlerosis). Anybody with leukemia can tell you that a bone marrow transplant which is removing the flawed source of the disease of blood cancer is a life saver. Often times Doctors also acknowledge the role of the mind in health and healing. I can't think of any of the docs I have been to in the last few years who don't understand that STRESS can be a huge player in dealing with disease as well. I know a lot of docs who tell their patients to try things like Yoga, acupuncture and other PROVEN stress reducers. As for your claim that alternative medicine works with modern medicine,....one of the biggest killers in this country today is caused by cross reactions of unreported herbal supplements with prescription meds/surgery so I am not sure your claim is entirely valid

[alarimer]

28. I am tired of the woo-woo nonsense I see posted here all the time

Disease is caused by microorganisms like viruses (virii?) and bacteria. I am not sure what the root cause of cancer is, some (like cervical cancer) may be caused by a virus but, regardless, there is a cause and it is NOT "disharmony" whatever the hell that is.

A number of studies have studied the effect of prayer on illnesses and, surprise, surprise, found no beneficial effect. In fact the people who were "prayed over" actually got worse. I'll see if I can find a link.

[LWolf]

29. Thank you for the final phrase,

after the "myth," the exclamation points, and the rant.

It's ok with me if you are not sure if my claim is entirely valid. I don't have anything to prove to you. I thank you for the words "not sure," and "entirely," at least.

FYI, some of the complementary alternative therapies I was referring to include yoga, accupuncture, and other stress reducing therapies. I'm glad you agree. It's also true that western medicine has begun to "see the light" where alternative medicine is, and I'm glad of it.

I don't see a problem with noting the underlying differences in philosophy, and noting that the two can be combined.

I had to go back to see if I'd actually posted something about herbal therapies; it's not in the post you are responding to. Of course, herbal therapies are often part of alternative medicine. Some have plenty of data to back them up, some not. I don't advocate the irresponsible use of any substance, and that includes herbs. The key word being "irresponsible." Hopefully, people who are taking meds prescribed by their doctors know to ask said doctors before adding anything to the mix, and hopefully doctors who write prescriptions know to mention that anything over the counter, herbal or other, should not be taken without checking with the doc first.

That's why I see a naturopath for most conditions, and he refers me to a GP when indicated. A GP that he works with, who also refers people back to him. :D

I assure you that when my mom needed an appendectomy, I didn't dose her with herbs and chants and hope she got better. I sure invited people to think positively about her health, and to encourage her to think positively. When my grandson had open-heart surgery, we obeyed the cardiologists to the letter, but we sure as hell prayed too, and we aren't believers in any organized religion.

Seeking doctors when necessary doesn't keep us from yoga, tai chi, accupuncture, or any other alternative wellness therapies. I guess that's where I see the difference. Alternative medicine tends to be to nurture wellness, while western medicine is to fix illness. From my perspective, of course.

Both fostering wellness and healing illness are necessary; they go together!

[Cleita]

32. The scientific branch of this debate doesn't get it.

No one except snake oil practitioners are trying to get rid of modern medicine. Sometimes modern medicine doesn't have all the answers though and it would be open minded of them to investigate claims of an herbal or other cure that might work where nothing else does.

Now let's leave herbals, minerals, acupuncture and chiropractry behind and talk about the spiritual, which is where the singing and other practices come into play. IMHO, once the doctors and scientists have done everything they can do, they should just let go and let the spiritual practitioners do their job depending on the preferences of the family.

When my husband died. I had to sit in the hospital emergency room with my step daughter and son-in-law waiting for the coroner to come to release his body. We all cried a lot and the hospital offered to call some reverend or priest (it was past midnight) to come. He already had died. There was no point. I kept on thinking at that time that I wish that there had been native American drummers and chanters there at the time. I really would have felt so much better and I think my kids would have too. All we could do was joke with each other a bit and cry some more.

[LWolf]

65. I know.

I don't think they want to "get" it.

I like science. I like inquiry. I also think that science can also be carried to extremes into fundamentalism.

Fundamentalist tendencies are based on fear. There must be only one right answer, one right way, one group of people who are "right," because safety and security lies in knowing you are "right." Ambiguity, or unanswered questions, or unexplained relationships, are frightening.

Why not have both? The science to tell us what we know now, which is never more than a tiny fraction of the whole, and the spirit to make us whole?

Mind, body, spirit...why divorce them?

[bobbolink]

58. Who knew it would be controversial to acknowledge the healing power of love, family, and touching.

That's what that article I posted was talking about.

Being surrounded by family and friends, being touched in caring ways, and being loved.

When that is controversial, as Michael Moore says, "Who ARE we?"

What have we become?

[LWolf]

66. Who ARE we?

:(

I hope that we are people who are disconnected from empathy, from humility, from generosity, from respect, but who can be reconnected and made whole.

"We" being the mass, not the individuals. We can start on an individual level, reconnecting to our humanity and making ourselves whole.

[mirrera]

20. That is why I had home births...

"the impersonal beeps of monitors and the foreign and mechanical voice of some invisible speaker coming over a paging system. The smells are not of the earth, rather they are strange and unpleasant smells, those of disinfectant and of death."

Our system is GREAT if you are broken. Western medicine sure can put humpty dumpty back together again. Health? That is a whole other story.

Thanks for the post. I sure don't want health care if they tell me what their idea of health is.

[bobbolink]

61. Very important point.... who wants to bring a baby into such an environment?!

I envy young mothers now who have this option.

An option that our grandmothers took for granted. :)

As Chinese medical practitioners say, "Western medicine is great for mechanical things. If you have a broken bone, you need western medicine for setting it. But western medicine does not treat systems, and doesn't understand much about the endocrine system, etc." I have to agree with that.

But, the purpose of my posting wasn't to start a fight between western medicine and others... it was to look at what our system may lack, and to include things which actually help people.

Who knew that would be so controversial....

[Summer93]

21. Very Interesting topic

For several years I have been interested in "alternative" types of health care. Thinking that what is needed is care for all parts of a person, not just the broken parts. All of our parts are connected.

I have seen and talked with more people in the last few years who have become ill with various things and I am beginning to think the stress of what is happening in our government and the occupation of Iraq, job loss, income insecurity are taking a toll on a lot of people who can deal with the stresses just so long.

When confronted with stress spirituality slacks off, diet is compromised, exercise is skipped or not done at all. What we had done for the sheer joy of it is put aside.

I really like the idea of the healing of music, art and touch. We all would benefit from it more during these times.

[brer cat]

22. Thanks for posting this, Bobbie.

We not only need health care for everyone, we need health care that recognizes that patients' cultural and family traditions may be equally or even more important than medical treatment. My family was fortunate when our parents died in that both hospitals honored our need to be present 24/7. One of the last visits that my sisters and I had together with our mother, she said "It is so much easier when you girls laugh." There isn't a pill or "push" that can accomplish that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

24. The much-despised Western hospitals cure diseases, the Navajo sings don'f.

The placebo effect has some value, but many diseases require proper medical treatment, which is generally best delivered in a hospital.

Most illnesses are caused by microorganisms and/or tissue damage, not be imbalance in the humours or bad thinking or similar.

If you're not actually ill, then alternative medicine is probably a perfectly good approach, though.

[Cleita]

45. Where in any of these posts have anyone said that we shouldn't

have proper medical treatment? What we are saying is that people should be allowed to have the spiritual dimension in addition to the scientific. Sheeesh! Also I'm an example of being cured by a herbalist of my chronic bronchitis whereas all the modern anti-biotics from mainstream medicine couldn't. I have been symptom free now for more than ten years. Science just doesn't have all the answers and when science fails, people should be able to seek alternative medicine.

[bobbolink]

53. Actually, you are mistaken.

I'm not here to defend the Navajo Way, as I'm not Navajo. It certainly seems that others, like you, could have a modicum of respect for other beliefs. (Geee, just like maybe the US could have had a bit of respect for Muslims, rather than bombing the shit out of another country....)

MOST doctors will honestly say that most people will get well, anyway, with our without their "medicine". So, that could be true with *any* modality, then.

HOWEVER, you have gone completely off on a tangent.... I'm sure you could see that I posted that piece not as a rational for the whole USA to use Navajo medicine, (DUH!), but because they recognize that "western" medicine leaves out caring for the inner needs of a patient.... the caring, the touching, and all the things that human beings need.

If you don't need love in your life, then fine. Nobody is going to force it on you, certainly. But, it's well-known that humans need love, respond to love, and thrive with love.

[Cleita]

54. Good answer, bobbolink.

Skeptics just don't get it, do they?

[bobbolink]

56. Skepticism doesn't bother me. I'm a skeptic, myself, in many ways.

I'm certainly not a "true believer".

But, to denigrate other cultures is how we 'Murkins got into the current mess we're in, and past messes, too.

I'm seeing so much ugliness towards each other, even those we say we have so much in common with in our thinking and our politics, that I wonder just what the hell kind of world people actually want.

But, I digress.

Thank you for your random acts of kindness, Cleita! That's all that's going to redeem our world, and you are appreciated.

:hug:

[kineneb]

31. there needs to be a wholistic view of the patient

Modern American medicine is very good at fixing things after they have broken. It is, however, not good at prevention (no profit), and terrible at treating the person as a whole.

With Hubby, I have had to intervene several times with specialists. They treated only their body part, while the treatment made his total health worse. The worst example: The heart doc put in a stent and gave Hubby a bunch of blood thinners. These thinned his blood too much, and made his dialysis difficult. As result, his overall condition became worse. And nowhere in all of the medical interventions has anyone really looked at Hubby's health, both physical and mental, as a whole.

The Navajo seem to be at least seeing the person as a whole, even if their "treatment" is medically ineffective. What we need is more effort on treating the whole person and more emphasis on prevention of disease, rather than trying to reassemble Humpty Dumpty after he is broken.

[Cleita]

33. Just a note.

Specialists are wary of treading on another doctor's specialty, which is why they don't alway coalesce. My husband was on dialysis for almost ten years so I know the Kabuki dance we did among doctors. Most doctors other than specialists don't really understand kidney disease anyway.

Hubby died almost three years ago but now I find myself being shuttled among specialists as well for my medical problems, and I find I really have to keep lists of what has happened to me and how I am being diagnosed, treated and medicated. I find myself arguing somewhat with them from time to time to get them all on the same page. I don't know how to fix this problem. It's part of the core of our medical crisis. It isn't just about money and insurance.

[nam78_two]

34. K&R

Good para Bobbie. I know exactly what you mean. I work in a medical centre and it is certainly one of the more depressing places one can be in.

I don't see this as Western medicine vs. alternate medicine issue-at least that wasn't what I got out of my reading, so I don't see the conflict others seem to :shrug:. I read it as statement on the impersonal almost cold atmosphere of most hospitals (especially towards elderly patients).

[bobbolink]

47. No, there isn't a conflict. But, some here are so anti-anything spiritual

that they want to MAKE it a conflict.

And, yes, that depressing atmosphere certainly doesn't help the healing process.

Thanks for understanding.

It's getting to the point where one wonders with DU... why even bother...

It's fighting just to be fighting.

[Odin2005]

39. The BS woo woo in this thread is hilarious.

It's pretty obvious that the assault on Reason isn't just coming from the Right. Some posters in this tread need to read some of Carl Sagan's books, especially Demon-Haunted World.

I'll take science over primitive superstitions and New Age quackery.

[knitter4democracy]

41. How helpful for the discussion.

:eyes:

Many scientists at least respect the fact that there's a lot we don't know. We don't know why moaning and singing help pain, we don't know why certain things happen, and there's so much we don't know. Let's just be okay with not knowing and the knowledge that some ancient ways work better than some medicines we have.

[Cleita]

44. True. Look at how acupuncture is becoming a mainstream

medical practice because it works. Years ago I think there was a lot of bigotry involved in discounting the medical practices of the Chinese because people who come from a European scientific orientation don't want to believe that other ethnicities and races might have something that works.

[knitter4democracy]

52. Acupuncture's been proven to work for many things.

Especially pain. St. John's Wort has been proven to help with mild cases of depression and even been studied to know what contraindications exist. All these things are for the good of the patient, which is paramount.

[bobbolink]

57. ACK! Needles!

~~~fainting dead away~~~~

[knitter4democracy]

62. I feel the same way, which is why I've never done it.

I read these articles in Hubby's med journals, and they give me the willies. After my big surgery last year, I am getting a bit better on my needle phobia, but it's still not that great.

[bobbolink]

64. Heh... on the local news tonight, there was a piece about Acupuncture and back pain!

Improvement rate on back pain from Acupuncture.... 46%

Improvement rate on back pain from conventional medicine....27%

Geeee, maybe "conventional medicine" doesn't have all the answers.... :hi:

[bobbolink]

48. Now, just how would that help? If you can't come to DU and laugh and denigrate others,

then just what the hell are you supposed to do with all your time????

Need I add... :sarcasm:

When I see all the hatefulness of "liberals" now, I realize that things just aren't going to get any better... war and more war, because we CHOOSE to be hateful.

[knitter4democracy]

55. People get snarky, true.

Usually about things near and dear to their hearts. Doesn't mean that we're totally lost, though. :)

:hug:

[Cleita]

43. Carl Sagan says hi from the other side.

:hi:

[likesmountains 52]

59. I have actually worked in a Navajo hospital, and a regional hospital

that serves a Native American population..I have observed "good sings" and been instructed to not let somebody in for a visit b/c they might be planning a "bad sing." At the regional hospital we encourage Native American traditions and had a Native American Blessing ceremony done...so not all hospitals are like the paragraph describes...I also clearly remember taking care of a sick child (Native American) who was not getting better despite the best efforts of his doctors..his tribal Medicine Man came in and did a ceremony (private). In spite of my initial skepticism I have to say that the child improved rather dramatically...and went home a few days later. None of the ICU doctors could explain it either..

[bobbolink]

60. Thanks so much for your input! "None of the ICU doctors could explain it either.."

Exactly! I'm so saddened that there is sooo much hostility in this thread to things that we know so little about!

We 'murkins really do need a bit more humility.

I do know that Bernalillo Hospital, near Albuquerque, had a "Singer" on the staff way back in the 60's, I believe, and is still there, as far as I know.

You're very fortunate to have been able to be there..... what an experience.

Thank you so very much for your post!! :hug:

[knitter4democracy]

63. Thank you for working there.

It's hard to work in rez hospitals, from what I've seen and heard. Thank you for doing that. :hug: