Good german phenomena where does it come from?

[undergroundpanther]

Here are some of the possible causes of why this pervasive apathy makes people so callous, like the "good Germans"..bystander apathy during a Genocide.
Ever hear of the "just world hypothesis?" It comes from life giving you a fortunate position and kind circumstances as if the world was just for everyone too..This is the Just world hypothesis - The tendency to believe that the world is fair and that people get what they deserve..

Traumatized people on the other hand know the world sucks,and want a better world,they have seen how bad life can be. So instead of blaming themselves for things they had no control over,they will fight against the causes if they can to MAKE justice happen because the horrible things that happened to them forced them to admit to themselves if not the world that the world is not just,it's fucked up! Trauma can create a cynical stance to assume it is not just.When good things happen, a pleasant surprise when life's capriciousness tosses them a bit of kindness.

But it's not just the just world beliefs of fortunate people operating here I think..There is a pathological narcissistic just world view it is found in the ever optimistic ,ever forward mentality,often displayed in business,in new age books,Pentecostals and diet/exerciser commercials..among other things that is the little known opposite of paranoia, popular these days,called pronoia.The opposite of paranoia, pronoia is defined as the sneaking suspicion that the whole world is conspiring to shower you with blessings. .
Check the links out.They form a pattern...
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Just world, my ass
http://www.scu.edu/ethics/publications/iie/v3n2/justworld.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/rcip/invuln.html

psychologists sometimes talk about something called the Just World Hypothesis, which is a sort of core belief that most people have that goes something like, "I am safe in the world so long as I do good. Events in the world operate in a lawful and non-chaotic manner, and if I am a good person in the world, I can expect that the world will treat me fairly". When a trauma comes along (any trauma will do) you have a situation where your Just World Hypothesis is suddenly contradicted by an overpowering event that says, "YOU ARE NOT SAFE. YOU ARE NOT IN CONTROL". When this happens, the Just World beliefs break, and what is left behind is a very nervous, very frantic, very frightened person.
http://www.ozarkguidance.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=10790&cn=74
Multiply that in more people...
http://www.aaets.org/article55.htm
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Pronoia is a by product of insecurity...a lie one tells oneself to feel in control or safe.
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Pronoia is the positive counterpart of paranoia. It is the delusion that others think well of one. Actions and the products of one's efforts are thought to be well received and praised by others. Mere acquaintances are thought to be close friends; politeness and the exchange of pleasantries are taken as expressions of deep attachment and the promise of future support. Pronoia appears to be rooted in the social complexity and cultural ambiguity of our lives: we have become increasingly dependent on the opinions of others based on uncertain criteria. This paper discusses individuals who suffer from pronoia, the organizational and interpersonal mechanisms that encourage it, and the connections between pronoia and paranoia. The paper suggests that introspection in a time of conflicting forms of consciousness is both an explanation for pronoia--and a problem in itself.

(Selling Narcissism...???)

From Rob Brezneys book,Pronoia Is The Antidote for Paranoia: How The Whole World Is Conspiring to Shower You with Blessings..

“If you cultivate an affinity for pronoia, people you respect may wonder if you have lost your way,” he writes. “You might appear to them anaiveve, eccentric, unrealistic …. Your reputation could suffer and your social status could decline.”
The key to being a pronoiac, says Brezsny, is finding truth and beauty everywhere. In his view, media is committing “genocide of the imagination” by convincing people that the world is going to hell in a hand basket and that tales of destruction are more interesting than tales of joy. It’s the pronoiac’s duty to challenge this notion that cynicism equals insight, says Brezsny. And, as with breaking any taboo, there are risks.
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Narcissism sounds like what Brerecommendsmends..
http://www.weirdcrap.com/scholarly/newage.htm
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/12/29/112610.php
http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/
http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/11-20-2004-61900.asp
And since narcissists abuse people and create anxiety people bystand...
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Lasch explains cultural narcissism as a response to anxiety, and a social strategy for people who lack a secure sense of their selves. This analysis allows Lasch to identify several interconnected social systems that cause social anxiety, that fail to educate and support people in being aware of their identities as human beings with rights and responsibilities, and that promote extravagant and grandbehaviorviour. While he discusses various systems separately, Lasch also describes the evolution of the modern, technological, materialist, consumption-oriented, personally liberated, nominally egalitarian American society. People are insecure because they are in fact vulnerable. More and more people are adopting narcissistic strategies to protect themselves. One strategy is making a grandiose show of ourselves. Another is turning to religious and psychological practices to reach psychological states where we experience peace, harmony and transcendence.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/12/15/094936.php

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1585472#1586381
Anxiety bullying and by-standing..All the shit we grow up in and around it helps create the political and personal apathy of adults..I think.
http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/bystand.htm
http://www.sorenseninstitute.org/NEWS/PeterSheras100304.php
http://alcoholism.about.com/od/abuse/a/blps041216.htm
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200109/power-genocide
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s1360571.htm


Lies..
http://mysite.verizon.net/ambur/Lies.htm
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These topics in these links are some of the toxic social things to look into to find the reasons behind why we are in this "good German" mess..now.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

1. Germany? nt

[undergroundpanther]

2. Why did

German citizens in ww2 stood by as lots of people were killed in concentration camps. By the post title, I was referring to the sociological phenomena that happened back than to the German people that in many ways is being repeated in American apathy now.

[undergroundpanther]

3. Dupe

A bug got my posts twice sorry.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

7. I was being snarky.

However the simplest truth is often the most horrifying. Like it or not A large number of Germans agreed with many of the Nazi's goals and methods. Just like a large number of Americans agree with Bush's goals and methods.

Now since the war many many Germans have claimed that the Nazi's were a tiny minority or they were forced to join. this is in general a load of crap. Those large rallies in Germany will filled with happy volunteering germans.

Right now a lot of Republicans are distancing themselves from shrub claiming he isn't a true conservative and all. Same bull different century.

Good German syndrome is when the majority of the people in a culture do something you personally disagree with. whether it is Jamaicans beating and setting fire homosexuals, or Iran's stoning adulterers or Chinese eating dogs. The people in these places/cultures support this. Those that oppose may be right and may have time and history on their side but they are the minority

The majority of an society are Good Germans

[JVS]

9. And good citizens thereof

;-)

[american_typeculture]

4. Herd mentality

[undergroundpanther]

5. Yeah but

Why does the herd mentality originate? Ever ask what causes it?

[Trajan]

14. Man's evolved tribal nature ....

Sticking close to your own clan during times of stress seems intuitively simple ....

Im not sure what you are seeking here, since this is a sociological question that is nearly impossibly complex and just as impossible to explain, even if given years to try to explain it .....

It seems intuitive to identify it as an evolved social response, like a pack mentality, becoming a tribal loyalty of sorts, where individuals obtain both a security benefit from tribal identification, coupled with implied or real threats for those who do not comply ....

Honestly: one might as well ask what makes a snowflake fall at such and such rate, with such and such a pattern and land in such and such a heap .... I think most people accept that humans WILL operate in packs at times ..... and that humans are brutal as animals ....

Shrugs ......

[rusty quoin]

6. I can understand Pronoia.

I naturally like to get along with everyone. If I am getting this right, I have been guilty of it. I thought we were all in the same boat, so we would not harm others. I learnt differently after 9/11.

[crim son]

8. I know Germany provides an excellent example of the phenomenon.

Whatever enabled those good, industrious, thoughtful and creative people to succumb to the promises made by their government at the time, we are just as suceptible and indeed more so. I imagine if the German citizenry was polled in 1944, anonymously, with no fear of reprisal for responses made, the approval rating for Hitler and his grand plan would have been damned low. But Germans before WWII were starving. Their international prestige had been grossly damaged and they were looking for redemption. Hitler promised them this redemption.

What has the fucking shrub offered us? Low gas prices? The promise that Christianity will remain the controlling religion of the nation? I have no idea because I've never bought into his bullshit: not from day one. But people always have believed the crap spewed by their government and I imagine they always will. The ability to think independently is, sadly, a rare gift.

[pinto]

10. I think the 'good German' slam, today, is inappropriate in many ways.

It is a vague, general, and broad brush typification that's rooted more in hyperbole than the facts of it all.

It obviously implies some level of acquiescence to genocide, which I think is another over-the-top assumption, in current political terms.

And it's a red herring.

Personally, I find the term troubling when used in the context of the tug-of-war that is American politics.

(aside) I know a real life 'good German'. She's a Schwabian, everyday people, her Dad was in the army. He was captured by the Russians on the Eastern front, he was never heard from again. She lost all her teeth as a child - no milk, no protein, no calcium.

*None of these folks* believed Hitler's line, in toto, yet they did what they did.

She still feels guilty for what her country's leaders did to the Jews and the world. She still wonders what happened to her Dad.

[pansypoo53219]

11. because we are deluded into thinking

we are better than the 'other'.

[NJCher]

12. thanks, UP

Wish I didn't have to go to work tomorrow as I would stay up and read this. It looks, though, like your links are very much of interest to me and I look forward to returning to examine this more closely. This is something that has long fascinated me.

Also, to posters upthread, I read the other day about how many Germans were in fact misled. The example cited was that there were days where Germans were not to go to the train station. Those were the days they were transporting Jews.

I, too, was of the opinion that many Germans knew and bought into Hitler's policies. I still am of that mind but a little less so now.



Cher

[TreasonousBastard]

13. I think no study of "the good German" is...

complete without reading some Hannah Arendt, particularly "Eichmann in Jerusalem." Much of what she writes about community and our relationship to the state is, if not great truths, great starting points for discussion.

Meanwhile, as I get time, I'd like to look further into some of these links and ideas.

[no_hypocrisy]

15. "Good German" is both a "recent" phenomenon and a misnomer.

Germany didn't become a sovereign nation until the mid-19th century, ruled by a Kaiser (emperor). One "mini-nation" within Germany (and some maintain a nation unto itself) was Prussia. The abject, unquestioning devotion to authority comes from the mindset of the Prussians. (Love for anything military, authority, and order more specifically).

This particular attitude was permeated throughout their society, including the family where the father was the "Kaiser" and everything was decided through him without question. One did not argue or debate or challenge one's father and likewise citizens were subservient to their local government, their pastor, their employer, etc. There were leaders and followers. Life was simply organized, everyone knew who they were and what they were expected to do.

This wholesale societal phenomenon was then incorporated into the military as seen in mobilization for the First World War wherein Prussian militarism (Bismark) was combined with 20th century technology. The "Good German" soldier foillowed orders to the extreme. If he were asked to shoot his compatriot by his superior he would because it was an order. No question.

Fast forward to the Third Reich. Germany pulled together at the command of Hitler and his crew, and the "Volk" did it quickly because of their malleability to authority. If they were told to do something, they did it quickly and without question. And we all know how perverted the Authority became. Germans were told to shun their Jewish neighbors, not to patronize Jewish businesses, turn in their Jewish friends and coworkers, and they did. (A number DIDN'T, but by their defiance, they were suspect as "traitors" and/or "unpatriotic" -- sound familiar?).

The "Good German" attitude has been hoisted upon us with * where we should support whatever he tells us, even if it's a lie, it's destructive, it's wrong . . . and some have acquiesced to his appeal, his will, or they plain prefer to let others decide for them.