The battle between the DNC and Florida Democrats. Good, bad, or stupid?

[RiverStone]

I'm not clear on how this debate over primary dates effects the entire democratic process.

If Florida tells the DNC to essentially - "Fuck off, we are going to hold our primary when we want!" - it sounds like they may lose ALL their delegates to the 2008 nominating convention in Denver.

At first glance, if I was a voter in Florida, I'd be pretty damn angry if I had no delegate representation from my state at the convention. Of course, all this jockeying around for primary position is deeply rooted in politics with Iowa wanting to maintain their "first" position in the primary line.

QUESTION: Is the DNC over-stepping by threatening to impose sanctions or is the Florida Democratic Party pushing it by not following the rules?


Ultimately I'm not sure if this entire debates helps or hurts our Party in the big picture...it seems more about ego's than politics. :shrug:

* * * * * *


CNN
9/23/07

The chairwoman of the Florida Democratic Party says the party will hold its presidential primary on Jan. 29, despite being told by the Democratic National Committee that doing so will result in the state losing its 210 delegates to the 2008 nominating convention in Denver.

"After months of careful deliberations, your Party's leaders have chosen overwhelmingly to reaffirm our strong commitment to fully participating in the state-run Democratic Presidential Primary on January 29, 2008, despite the penalties from the Democratic National Committee," Karen Thurman said in an email message to Florida Democrats on Sunday. "There will be no other primary. Florida Democrats absolutely must vote on January 29th," Thurman said. "We make this election matter. Not the DNC, not the delegates, not the candidates, but Florida Democrats like you and me voting together. We make it count."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/09/23/florida-democrats-will-defy-national-party/

[madfloridian]

1. Florida took a gamble to be a big shot. I stand with the DNC

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

[RiverStone]

8. Will your vote count?

madfloridian - thats for sharing ALL the links. Lots of thought there...

What recourse do you have as a voter to ensure that your vote COUNTS (per your rights as a US citizen) if the DNC pulls all your delegates? I can't believe it would simply end there???

[madfloridian]

16. All I can do is be honest.

Florida will continue to make fools of themselves. It hurts everyone.

[flashl]

22. Where was Nelson, Thurman, FL Dems on Aug 19, 2006?

Highlights of the 2008 Rules

On August 19th the members of the Democratic National Committee adopted the Delegate Selection Rules for the 2008 Democratic National Convention. The Rules govern the development and implementation of a delegate selection process by each state and territorial Party.

Some highlights of the 2008 Rules:

Calendar
Last year the Party's Commission on Presidential Nomination Timing and Scheduling issued its recommendations on the 2008 primary and caucus calendar.

The Party recognizes the need early in the nominating process to broaden participation to reflect the Party’s rich racial, regional, and economic diversity by including 2 additional states. Twelve states applied to conduct early primaries and caucuses. We believe that shows the energy and excitement for opening up the process.

The addition of 2 states early in the process will also open up the dialogue to engage a broader range of people to talk about a wider variety of issues. This will enable the Democratic Party to choose the strongest candidate to be our Presidential nominee.

The new schedule is as follows:

Iowa holds the first-in-the-nation caucus on January 14.
New Hampshire holds the first-in-the-nation primary on January 22.
Nevada conducts a caucus between Iowa and New Hampshire on Saturday, January 19.
South Carolina holds a primary 1 week after the New Hampshire primary on Tuesday, January 29
The regular window will open for all other states on the first Tuesday in February -- February 5, 2008.

Presidential Candidate Sanctions on the Window
There is a new rule that imposes new sanctions on presidential candidates. If a state, any state, violates the rule on timing/the window, presidential candidates will face sanctions if they campaign in that state. Examples of campaigning include: making personal appearances in the state, hiring campaign workers, and buying advertising and so on.

Currently, the only punishment for states that violate the window was on State Parties. This new enforcement provision recognizes that presidential candidates must also bear a responsibility in enforcing the window or face sanctions.

[madfloridian]

30. Presidential Candidate Sanctions on the Window

Yes, exactly. The rules were set, Florida did not apply for the pre window, they voted for the rules.

It is a power play that will hurt all of us.

[RiverStone]

34. The domino effect...

It is a power play that will hurt all of us.

I'm trying trying to understand the ramifications of this and have a question:

How will this hurt ALL of us?

Thanks :)

[madfloridian]

35. Do you care about truth and integrity?

Then this will hurt you.

Do you have other motives for posting this?

Then it won't affect you maybe.

Anything that happens in Florida now is based on lies.

[RiverStone]

36. truth and integrity - ALWAYS!

I posted the OP because to the average observer out there, this whole feud seems counter-intuitive.

Who is the winner here?

I'm not sure, but I can guarantee you the loser is the American voter!!! And maybe the votes in FLA the most.

When I asked how does it hurt all of us Madflo, I was NOT challenging that assumption, rather asking for clarity. I don't live in FLA and all this rule business is a little confusing.

Hoping for a more detailed response was so I CAN take action and write a letter to the powers that be in FLA that the actions of a few - hurt the many. Though before I went off on a tangent, I need to at least know what I'm talking about. Not fully understanding all this is why I ask you in the first place.

:think:

Please do not question my motives unless you have a reason to do so! Nothing nefarious here, it was just a simple question.

My motive was simply (and ONLY) to understand this ridiculous spat between the DNC and FLA Dems.

[madfloridian]

38. The media has only covered one side...Florida's side.

That's why I wrote all the posts I listed. Because I was trying to explain.

I have learned that the media is far more powerful than I thought.

DNC rules have an out for Democrats in states that are controlled by Republicans like Florida is. If the Dems here had stood up against the GOP, and could have proved it, they would have all their delegates.

But the Rules committee had the floor transcripts, and they knew the Democrats had laughed and joked their own amendments off the floor. They helped introduce the bill in fact. Jeremy Ring was one.

They knew exactly what they were doing, and they were insulting to Governor Dean in interviews. They could have kept their delegates if they had not gone along.

[flvegan]

2. The primary date, as I understand it, is set by the Republican run FL legislature

I don't know if our Florida Dems have a choice in the matter.

From makeitcountflorida.com

Who sets the date for the Primary?
The state-run Presidential Preference Primary date is set by the Florida Legislature. In the 2007 regular legislative session, the Republican Speaker of the House made it a priority to move up the Primary to January, in violation of both Democratic and Republican National Committee Rules. The Legislature passed the bill, which also included the requirement that all Florida elections have a paper trail starting in 2008. Governor Charlie Crist signed the bill into law in May.


The DNC says that Florida could have applied to hold an early primary when it was developing the calendar, but didn't. Why not?
In Florida, the Legislature is controlled by Republicans. Democrats must prioritize what they work on to achieve the best they can for Floridians. An early primary was never a priority for Democrats, who were and are more concerned with issues such as insurance reform, healthcare for children, and improving our schools. The first that Florida Democratic legislators heard of the Republicans' plan to move the primary was in November 2006, when Speaker Marco Rubio announced it. That was well past the deadline to apply to the DNC to hold an early primary.

[madfloridian]

3. Florida worked with the GOP, they voted for it.

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

Carl Levin and Terry McAuliffe made a deal about primaries in 2004.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1483

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1481

[flvegan]

6. We were going to get screwed either way.

As I see it, this vote was also the only way to get paper ballots. As usual, damned if you do, damned if you don't. Very possible I'm reading this wrong, though.

[LittleClarkie]

10. There was a certain amount of snickering going on that is worrysome

I think there's a recording somewhere. A Dem introducing a bill to fight the change, and laughing about it, as if he knew it was just a token effort. "Oh SURE, I want this to pass. No REALLY. (snerk)"

[madfloridian]

12. I am telling you the Dems went along with that ballot stuff...

It was a way they could show the mean DNC they had to vote for it.

It was never about paper ballots, not really.

[patrioticintellect]

5. I overlooked this in my initial response to this posting

So, it's all a Republican scheme to get the Democrats running willy nilly all over the place?

It's working.

[LittleClarkie]

11. Personally I think it's the centrists scheme to have Dean running around willy nilly

Just in time for the 2008 election.

[patrioticintellect]

15. Except, isn't Dean a centrist?

Or, he has become one ever since his "howl" that was heard around the world.

[Romulox]

19. Dean ain't exactly proving to be a radical populist with his "top down" style of management...nt

[madfloridian]

26. It's called standing up for the other states when a big bully takes over.

And I say good for him for following the rules.

[Romulox]

28. The "other states" meaning Ia, NH, SC, and Nv, right? He isn't sticking up for MY state! nt

[yewberry]

77. The "other states" are the ones following the rules they agreed to follow.

You know, almost all of them, except for those attempting to make power plays and ignore their agreements.

[Romulox]

124. We're not talking about "states"...we're talking about VOTERS. The voters DID NOT agree to this. n

[yewberry]

133. Sorry, I was busy answering the question you actually asked.

The voters in MI may not have agreed to this, and there is a record of state-level Dems being against it. The DNC has provisions for states in which Dem minorities dissent.

The voters in FL cannot make the same claim.

[LittleClarkie]

134. Indeed. I'll bet that they suffer little or no penalty and it will have been their dissent

that made the difference. The Florida Dems are thumbing their noses at the rules, and then hiding behind the Republican majority to deflect blame.

We shall see.

[LittleClarkie]

37. Top down? Do you know how many new field organizers we have now?

And if you're going to belong to an organization that has a leader, it's bad form to stage a mutiny.

[Romulox]

39. Democracy is defined by participation of the *people*, not the deployment of party bosses...nt

[LittleClarkie]

40. Those are people.

Bosses? What bosses?

You've never met Corine then. She's our field organizer in SE Wisconsin. Does a lot of work for not a lot of money.

But I still maintain that if you're going to belong to an organization, and elect that leader, it's always kinda nice if you can listen to that leader once in a blue moon.

[Romulox]

42. Yeah, and lobbyists are people too! nt

[LittleClarkie]

46. Do you even know what a field organizer is?

Often enough they're in their twenties and just starting out in the party. Enthusiastic and not well paid, that's them.

[Romulox]

47. None of that has anything to do with letting red states decide the candidate...

You are trying to divert attention from the real issue.

[LittleClarkie]

48. I'm talking about "people" and what Dean has done for the party

We have "people" now. We have people where we didn't have people.

And Dean knows that there are blue people in red states.

By the way, what do you care about red states deciding. What do you think FLORIDA is? You're arguing in Florida's favor aren't you? So I guess you want a red state to leapfrog past where they're supposed to be in the queue.
'
I mean seriously. What are you getting at. First you talk about the people deciding. Then you mistake a lobbyist for a field organizer, then you talk about red states deciding when it's a red state you're arguing for.

Are you at all active in your state party? Do you have any idea what this is all about?

[Romulox]

51. Having "people on the ground" does not make it OK for a tiny red state to decide

for everyone else. The two things are not related. Get that through your head. Democracy =/= "a tiny elite decide assisted by scads of DNC operatives." It's such a bizarre argument that it's difficult to refute.

And I didn't confuse lobbyists with DNC employees--I said that neither were "the people".

And finally, somebody isn't following this story very closely, (and apparently that same someone hasn't studied his state flags.) Remember that other disenfranchized state?

[LittleClarkie]

56. So you're trying to help a BIG red state decide instead

Mkay.

It was the size?

And it's you who's not following very closely if you don't know what Dean has done for the party and what the Dems in Florida are trying to do to Dean. They are NOT the victims here.

You want operatives? You want fat cats and big bosses? Then keep helping to push Dean aside. What's waiting in the wings is what you fear. Enjoy.

And your flag is too small for me to recognize. You want me to know where you're from, put it in your profile.

[Romulox]

59. M*I*C*H*I*G*A*N (might want to consult a newspaper, then a map.) nt

[LittleClarkie]

62. Florida is a red state

Florida started this.

[Romulox]

66. Florida WAS a "swing state"...you're pushing it right. Michigan WAS "true blue"...ditto...nt

[LittleClarkie]

78. I am? I'm 5' nuthin and in Wisconsin. How am I doing that?

Who do you think I am, and why do you think I'm pushing your state right?

And why now? Why leapfrog NH and Iowa now. How many years now have they had their spots in line. Why has the situation become intolerable now?

[Romulox]

123. Disenfranchizing democrats is alienating potential allies.

It's not hard to understand.

[madfloridian]

41. You really don't understand it all do you?

about the organizers?

[Romulox]

44. LOL. No, I don't understand what right "the organizers" have to decide for me...

I guess I'm just not one to blindly accept authority.

[madfloridian]

49. So you want to control it all?

Life doesn't work well that way.

[Romulox]

52. Democracy = rule by the people. What could be simpler than 1 person = 1 vote? nt

[LittleClarkie]

53. He hasn't clue one what we're talking about.

I'm wondering if he's ever been IN a Dem Headquarters.

I'm not sure where he's seeing big bosses and fat cats.

And I'm sure if he works somewhere, he doesn't give his boss the finger at a reasonable request.

[Romulox]

55. Ad hominems when the rational argument quiver runs dry. How persuasive!

[LittleClarkie]

64. It's not an ad hominem attack to point out that you don't know what we're talking about

and appear to want to remain militantly ignorant.

[Romulox]

69. And you didn't know that Michigan moved it's primary date up to Jan. 15, so...

[LittleClarkie]

76. With permission? Sorry your state's issue hasn't been reported here as extensively as Florida's

take a cue from Madflo and have at it.

So I just went off and read a few articles on the issue.

And so your state may face similar santions as Florida.

But what I don't understand is why now? Iowa and NH have been in their places for years. Why the big deal now.

[Hutzpa]

80. So Sorry to butt in........but I would like

to know why now, why all of a sudden these States are clamoring for new dates.

:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

50. You really don't, do you. You said that the party should be about people. So I gave you an example

of how Dean has brought that to us.

The organizers aren't that powerful. But them being in an area means that area gets organized when maybe they weren't before. Maybe the Dems in a red state get money and help when election time comes around, when they used to be ignored before because people thought it was useless. People like Nelson, and Carville, and Emmanuel, and probably even Hillary.

That's why this is happening, you see. The people in Florida who started this mess don't care about the people. They want to pave the way for Hillary in 2008. They want Dean neutralized.

Thanks for doing your part.

[Romulox]

54. Sending organizers to Montana or Los Vegas doesn't help voters in Michigan...

You can pander to the red staters all you like. You can select the closest thing to a Repub that can still be called a Democractic, too.

The blue states will not lay down and let Dean's new "southern strategy" cut us out. Not any more.

[LittleClarkie]

58. Florida isn't a blue state. I'm not pandering to anyone. I'm in a blue state.

and the organizer I'm talking about is a young enthusiastic girl in a blue state who wouldn't even be here if not for Dean.

Dean is not Nixon.

You are a confused person.

[madfloridian]

63. Yes, very confused.

:hi:

[Romulox]

68. I've told you I'm from MICHIGAN several times. You are either slow or disingenuous...nt

[LittleClarkie]

70. So what's going on in Michigan then?

Sorry, I only know the story in Florida. What's happening in your state that has you all uptight?

[Romulox]

73. OMFG, After all the snark and ad hominems, I will not dignify this with a response...nt

[LittleClarkie]

75. Forgive me for being fixated on Florida in a THREAD ABOUT FLORIDA

Fine, then you have no beef. I'm going back to discussing the RED state that you're defending the rights of by default because it's a thread ABOUT Florida.

I'm willing to find out what your issue is. Michigan hasn't gotten the same attention as Florida. Maybe they will if they get sanctioned.

But how long can we keep letting states play leap frog. It's gotta stop somewhere, or they'll be having them in 2007 pretty soon. I see chaos in our future.

And the state parties did sign off on the rules, didn't they? Suddenly they don't want to follow them?

All I did was point out that the DNC was still about the people, and you mistook some poor 20 year old kid for a party boss.

[madfloridian]

92. Michigan jumped ahead of NH...then ordered the DNC to punish NH

even though NH has not yet moved up ahead of MI.

They along with Florida sent Dean a letter threatening him with a lawsuit and telling him to sanction NH even though they had not moved up. They accused him of playing favorites.

Levin despises NH and IA and probably despises NV and SC.

There appears to be no feeling of party unity, or no one wants party discipline.

Except they all ADORE Hillary's message discipline, but what is good for her is bad for the DNC...so go figure.

[LittleClarkie]

96. And I still wanna know why now

why not under McAuliffe?

[madfloridian]

115. Oh, my what a good question. No one will answer me either.

Of course we could assume it was a power play on the Dean strategy, but I would not do that would you?

[Romulox]

125. Carl Levin has been pushing for this since before Howard Dean was chair. nt

[LittleClarkie]

9. The DNC is not unreasonable. If the Florida Dems were acting as if they didn't want this

and had put up a decent fight against it, then I don't think that Dean and the DNC would have reacted the same way.

But it appears that the Dems went along because they want this move as well, and essentially told Dean and the DNC to fuck off. Blaming it now on the Republicans is disingenuous. Acting as if they're right to vote is being taken away when they themselves decided to break the rules is disingenuous. Suddenly Senator Nelson, who doesn't fight for our side much, is willing to fight for this.

I personally think this challenge to Dean's authority is timed to weaken him for 2008, because certain folks don't really want Dean to be in control and implement more of his 50 state strategy in that election. They see 2006 as a botched job, saying we could have won bigger if only they could have spent money where they wanted to, and not all over. I'm making a bit of a leap, I know, but I tend to see centrists Carville, Emmanuel, Nelson and Clinton as being in the same camp on this issue. And Dean is the odd man out.

Otherwise, as Madflo says, why now? We've been going along with these dates for a while now, haven't we? Why all of a sudden is this primary situation intolerable for the state of Florida?

[patrioticintellect]

4. Yes

And I champion those candidates who refused to sign anything so that Iowa's position in elections could be maintained. Until we pick one day when all primaries are held, which will never happen because politicking would be delivered a blow, we must allow states to shift their dates to whenever they want to.

And why Democrats would want to alienate their constituents is beyond me. I hope it has nothing to do with the disenfranchisement of black voters that has gone on for the past two elections. It could have something to do with the volatile group of Democrats in Florida who want serious change, which is probably a result of Jeb Bush's governing. I don't know.

If Democrats want to win, they won't put "sanctions" or "regulations" on who can and who can't send delegates.

[madfloridian]

14. Florida Dems introduced the bill. Please tell the truth.

Our party is nothing without truth.

[Romulox]

7. The DNC is asserting the right for a privileged elite to control the process...

The "50 state plan" seems like just another pander to the same rural southern/mountain voters that the Republicans woo.

In other words, it has an averaging effect on the selection process, which tends to produce Republican and Democratic candidates that tack extremely close to one another in ideology and constituencies.

So the Democratic early primary system will produce a center/right candidate from a Southern state. Just like the Republican system will. The two eventual candidates may disagree on abortion.

[madfloridian]

13. Not geared to Southern states.

Geared to West.

Florida is not getting it's usual attention as a result.

Look up an article called New Map out West...they don't count on Florida's electoral votes. They know they will go Republican.

[Romulox]

18. (And South Carolina, but who's counting?)

And Iowa, Nevada, and South Carolina all went for Bush in 2004. People in solidly Republican states will pick the Democratic nominee.

What's more insidious, this appears to be an example of the leaders choosing their own constituencies.

[RiverStone]

23. And who is paying attention (other then DU)?

People in solidly Republican states will pick the Democratic nominee.

YES!!!

DU is filled with political junkies and yet, the nuances of the effects the primary calender has on our eventual nominee can still be confusing.

How in the hell is John Q. Public supposed to ever understand this? In fact, most are not even paying attention!

How can we make the initial DEMOCRATIC Primaries from states with an obvious shade of BLUE?

[madfloridian]

24. No one held a gun to their heads to vote for the rules.

:shrug:

[Romulox]

31. Who is "they"??? Party insiders agreed to rules that benefit party insiders...

The same people that Howard Dean is attempting to disenfranchize did not get a say in the matter.

[madfloridian]

33. All 447 party insiders? Hell of a lot, huh?

You need to read up.

[Romulox]

43. Yep, the members of the DNC are, by definition, party insiders. NOT "the people". nt

[madfloridian]

57. They are not "insiders" in DC....is that what you are saying?

They are from all over, I know many of them, and many are not insiders at all.

[Romulox]

67. They represent the PARTY, not the PEOPLE. They are "insiders". nt

[LittleClarkie]

79. I'll have to tell Corine that. She'l love it. It's pronouncements like this that are making it hard

to focus on your state's issue.

And you need to do as good a job as Madflo has in publicizing your state's issue. Florida has santions, yours does not yet. They have all the attention therefore.

Meanwhile, you don't hear me crying. By the time the primaries got to Wisconsin last time, Kerry was it. My candidate wasn't even on our ballot anymore. He'd dropped out.

There should be one day with all the states holding their primaries. Not your state. Not Florida. Not NH and IA. Everyone, all at once.

[Romulox]

119. To be fair, it's your failure to follow current events

That is making it hard for you to discuss this.

There should be one day with all the states holding their primaries. Not your state. Not Florida. Not NH and IA. Everyone, all at once.

Well, I agree with this 100%. So why in hell are you defending the status quo of 4 "special states" and 46 second class states? :wtf:

[LittleClarkie]

132. I'm glad we agree with that much. And what I want and what we have are obviously two different thing

But this is not the way to get it. I can't condone this "every man for himself" mentality amongst the states. And the rules were agreed upon. If there was a problem, shouldn't it have been brought up at the vote for the rules?

[yewberry]

74. Dean isn't attempting to disenfranchise anyone.

The FDP knew the rules and that there were automatic sanctions in place when they made their power play. The FDP made the decision to disenfranchise FL voters.

It's a shitty thing to do to your own constituents, but the FDP are the ones who caused this mess, not Dean.

[porphyrian]

17. At this point, I don't care whose fault it is, I just want my vote to count.

If it doesn't, I have a problem with everyone involved in this shit.

[rateyes]

21. Then, IMO, it would be a good thing for you to call

Senator Nelson, and tell him to follow the DNC rules that Florida voted for.

[porphyrian]

25. Ha! Do you really think that would make any difference at all?

It hasn't for anything else I've contacted him about.

[Hutzpa]

83. So....let me see if I understand...

are insinuating that we have a Senator that don't listen to the people, well what the 'FUCK' is he doing there then?

This is exactly what makes me sick to my stomach...

:puke:

[porphyrian]

87. It was him or the republican. Who should I have voted for?

Maybe I shouldn't have voted at all. Then you could blame me for that instead.

[madfloridian]

27. Exactly.

.

[Romulox]

29. Your vote WILL count (as long as it is for Hillary Clinton.)!

The Great and Powerful Howard Dean has spoken!

He's proving how much of a populist he is by not letting people vote. It's all very complicated...

[flashl]

32. Wrong ...

the great and powerful Democratic Party Commission on Presidential Nomination Timing and Scheduling spoke in December 2005.

Everybody else just been asleep at the wheel.

[Romulox]

45. Asleep my foot. My state did something about it, and we WILL be voting on the 15th! nt

[flashl]

60. Tell me ...

What exactly happen in Florida between Dec. 2005 up until April 2007 that addressed this specific issue after the schedule was announced?

[Romulox]

72. Not from Florida. Not from Florida. Not from Florida! nt

[madfloridian]

61. Yep, you butted ahead of NH, didn't you?

And joined Florida in daring the others to fight you two bully states.

[Romulox]

71. NH had no right to be second. Some are "more equal than others" is LITERALLY out of Orwell...nt

[madfloridian]

81. You are amazing. Keep talking. Some people the more they say...

the more the curtain is opened.

[Romulox]

114. OMG did you hear that? He said Iowa and NH had *no right* to go first!!! The nerve!

:rofl:

[LittleClarkie]

110. NH has no right. So why does Michigan have that right instead in your eyes?

What's to stop another state from leapfrogging YOUR state now. And what right do THEY have.

If you want anarchy become an anarchist. If you want to be a Dem, there just happens to be a leader and some rules, as there are in ANY organization.

[Romulox]

116. Michigan has a right as a US state to set its election schedule when it pleases

so do the other states.

And sometimes anarchy is preferable to orderly oppression.

[madfloridian]

121. And the DNC has the right not to give delegates.

.

[Romulox]

126. Of course. But my bet is that the DNC will blink first.

The DNC has a "right" to disenfranchize millions of blue state voters.

But it's morally wrong, and, more importantly, a stupid move politically. I'd be willing to bet that the delegates from Michigan and Florida will be seated.

[madfloridian]

127. You don't seem to care about the truth of what our states did.

That is disturbing.

[rateyes]

20. And, Bill Nelson has the gall to stand on the Senate floor

and lecture Democrats for not working with Republicans...when he won't work with fellow Democrats, and stand for following the rules that Florida voted for.

They knew the rules. They intentionally broke the rules. They should be ready to pay the price for breaking the rules.

I'm with Dean. And, without their delegates, the nominee may very well change on the floor.

[porphyrian]

65. So, punish them, not every Democrat who happens to live in Florida.

What level of control do you believe we really have here?

[LittleClarkie]

84. You elected the buggers

I know, it sucks at your level. But these dudes have the power, and the only way to punish them is to take that power away. They disenfranchised themselves, and you. They should be voted out of office, but to many call them heroes now.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

89. It was their choice, not mine.

Yell at them, not me.

[porphyrian]

91. No, you are the one saying my vote shouldn't count, so it is you I'm yelling at.

I don't control the people I had to elect any more than I control you or the President. How dare you suggest disenfranchising me.

[LittleClarkie]

93. I'm saying that the Dem leadership in Florida needs to get their head out of their asses

and put the primary back where it belongs.

Why would I want you disenfranchised? Your vote should count. But the people who can get that done are the people you should be calling right now.

I can't do shit.

We have to have some semblance of order, and the Florida Dems need to follow the rules, or at least make an effort.

That's all it would have taken, you know. Some effort on their part to show that they tried to stop the legislature from doing what it did. The thing NOT to do was what they did, which was thumbing their nose at the DNC.

We have an organization for a reason.

[porphyrian]

98. You are suffering from the delusion that they are listening to us.

Nelson is a conservative Democrat. He ran uncontested, so my choices were to vote for him, vote for the republican or to not vote. I've contacted his office on every major issue, but all I got were polite apologies. I don't know why you think I can change his mind now.

Yes, we do need some semblance of order. So punish those responsible for the disruption, not the entire fucking state. I don't understand why you think I should be punished for their actions.

[LittleClarkie]

101. What kind of punishment could Dean level at them?

What kind of punishment would work?

[porphyrian]

103. I'm not the one frothing for punishment, you are.

I don't know and I don't care. All I care about is that my nearly-meaningless vote is not in vain, and I am going to have a problem with anyone and everyone who tries to take that away.

[LittleClarkie]

106. You don't think what your state Dems are doing is a problem?

You don't care if there is order? You're happy with the early primary? All the state parties should just do what they like and then we'll have no need for leadership?

Is that really the best answer?

Perhaps not knowing and not caring is the problem.

[porphyrian]

120. I didn't say it wasn't a problem. Are you even bothering to read what I write?

You are the problem, justifying disenfranchising every voter in the state of Florida based on the actions of the only party candidates that were available for election.

[Hutzpa]

105. Then something is wrong

what the hell are our representatives doing down there in Florida.....they just lying down and taking it from the back or what. Seems like the GOP are allover us with noone daring to challenge their intentions.

[porphyrian]

111. They've leaned as far right as possible, convinced that's the only way to get elected.

I don't agree with that bullshit DLC strategy, but there it is. With rare local exceptions, the left goes largely unrepresented in this state and, after two consecutive terms of JEB!, there's enough damage done to make recovery last a long time.

[LittleClarkie]

112. Sadly, from some of the reports I've read, they didn't even lie down

it's sort of a bi-partisan fuck you to the national organization.

[Malikshah]

82. Past Due-- the Florida Dems need to be reregistered for what they are

At best wannabe Republicans.

Pissed off south Floridian....:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[porphyrian]

88. I hope you mean those in office, not all registered Florida Democrats.

Because otherwise you better smile when you say that, pardnuh.

[Malikshah]

136. I refer to the "Dem Leaders"-- the ones who make the decisions

such as which sacrificial lamb they're comfortable with putting up for Governor's offices, which groups to get in bed with, how many times they smile and put on a bit more makeup to cover the marks.

:)

[MilesColtrane]

86. No Convention For You!!

If Florida Democrats screw themselves out of convention delegates, just call it a little karmic payback for not being able to figure out a butterfly ballot.

[porphyrian]

90. So you would have an entire state's worth of Democrats disenfranchised?

Fuck that shit.

[LittleClarkie]

94. He wouldn't, and I wouldn't. But your leadership in Florida would

all they have to do is follow the rules and put their damn primary back, or even look like they're TRYING. Dean's not unreasonable. If they even looked like they were TRYING to follow the rules, these punishments would not be happening.

[porphyrian]

99. I DON'T CONTROL THEM ANY MORE THAN YOU.

I guess you have a responsive Senator that you can call on any issue and change their position. I don't. Let that soak in.

[LittleClarkie]

104. Of course I don't. I can lodge my opinion with him, but he matches my views mostly

Still, what exactly do you want Dean to do? What kind of punishment fits? What kind of punishment will stop other states from doing the same and chaos from ensuing.

I'm sorry that you're caught in the middle of all of this. But Dean didn't start it. He's just trying to follow the rules that ALL the state organizations agreed to. That's his job. He has to do it, or there will be NO order.

[porphyrian]

107. I don't care what Dean does, as long as he doesn't disenfranchise me for someone else's actions.

I'm not the head of the Democratic party. I don't know what all of the options are, and I frankly don't care. What I do care about is having my vote count, and I have a problem with everyone who tries to take that from me, whether it is the republican party in 2000 or the Democratic party in 2008.

[LittleClarkie]

109. If you care about the one, you have to care about the other

They're tied together.

Not knowing the options is part of the problem. You should know or at least care because one of those options might make things right.

[porphyrian]

113. Oh, bullshit. Now you would have a test for my civic rights to count?

What fucking party are you in? I am an American citizen of legal adulthood with no criminal convictions. I get a fucking vote, period. I don't know why you seem so interested in taking that away from me.

[LittleClarkie]

117. You're the one who doesn't know and doesn't care about what you need to know and care about

Participate in the system. It works better that way.

I didn't take your rights away. Your state party did that. And if you don't know, and you don't care, what the options are, then you're also taking them away from yourself. ]

Something is wrong, and needs to be put right. Dean didn't start this, the states did. They are the ONLY ones who can put it right again.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MilesColtrane]

128. The Florida Democrats were...

...enfranchised when their delegates to the 2004 Democratic National Convention voted to form a commission to recommend an even handed reformation of the primary schedules.

They were enfranchised when their Democratic National Committee members voted on the commission's recommendations for the 2008 primary schedule.

The penalty of not adhering to the agreed upon plan was spelled out in May of 2005. The national Party leadership even made a special trip to advise Florida Dems of the consequences before the date change was finalized.

Finally, they were enfranchised when their representatives had a vote in the State legislature on whether to move the primary to January.

Belonging to a national party entails following its rules, rules that are laid out for the benefit of the entire party, not just one state.

The Florida State Democratic National Committee can either comply, bring a lawsuit, or leave the party.

[LittleClarkie]

130. It could have been even simpler than that

I don't think the DNC is unreasonable. If the legislature had voted for the move, but the Dems had put up some kind of a fight to show they were even trying to comply with the rules, I don't think we'd be having this conversation.

[porphyrian]

131. I can't believe you think our votes should be invalidated because of the decision of our Congress.

What the fuck is wrong with all of you? Not counting our votes is what got bush elected in the first fucking place. I can't believe this bullshit. You are justifying the unconstitutional actions of this criminal administration by joining them in devaluing our votes, for the actions of a few who, ironically, were following the same bullshit race-to-the-right tactics (under the euphemism "moderate") of the DLC Democrats who have been calling the shots for the party's direction.

I repeat, if my vote doesn't count, I'm going to have a problem with everyone involved.

[MilesColtrane]

135. Until the Karen Thurman handles up on business and turns the Jan. date...

...into a straw poll with actual delegates selected by convention at a later date, you're damn right I think your vote should be invalidated because you're screwing (disenfranchising I believe is the word you like) Democratic voters in states that hold later primaries, not to mention the candidates.
Florida voting early gives an advantage to candidates with the most money, and minimizes the chances of dark horses.

In the long run, it will probably be up to who the presumptive nominee whether your delegates get a seat at the convention, not the DNC rules committee.

[LSdemocrat]

95. Would it really kill Florida to hold a caucus?

If not, then Florida Dems are really making EVERYONE look bad and/or dysfunctional.

[LittleClarkie]

97. Depends on what the real point to all of this is.

This game of "me first" is getting old, though, I gotta tell you.

[LSdemocrat]

100. I think the real lesson is that the US desperately needs an overhaul of the primary system

The current system sucks, but it's what we have for this cycle. As far as I'm concerned, there are several plausible solutions out there.

[LittleClarkie]

102. It doesn't exactly appear that the Florida Dems want to negotiate

I don't see a lot of good faith there.

[Justitia]

108. FL Dem Party chairwoman appears to be shooting herself in the face -eom

[Bucky]

118. The argument is harmless. The larger point is that conventions don't matter any more

Florida has figured that out. But I can't imagine that there could be a convention with no delegates from the 3rd largest state.

[tomreedtoon]

129. Okay, guys...will Florida protest at the national convention?

I open this question to you. Will the Florida Democrats raise a stink at the convention?

It would be a perfect opportunity to make a lot of noise. The business of seating the state delegates is the most boring part of a convention - you remember when TV used to carry gavel-to-gavel coverage, don't you? The chance of anything happening in this process would shake things up.

As a Floridian (registered as an Independent) I can't figure out what this is. Does Bill Nelson, a conservative Democrat that's done damn little for the state, think he's pulling some kind of power play inside the party? Is this something like an anti-Dean operation? If so, is it possible that the Florida group may force their way into the convention hall or protest loudly outside it?

The few people I know that care are upset that we won't have a voice in the convention. They don't know from internal Democratic politics, they only know their vote is being taken away. And they won't be hard to convince that it's Dean and the DNC that's taking it away. (After all, most of these voters went to Florida schools.)

So I open it to you. What do you think Florida will do to screw up the national convention and tarnish whoever ends up as the candidate?

[MilesColtrane]

137. " Does Bill Nelson, a conservative Democrat...

...that's done damn little for the state, think he's pulling some kind of power play inside the party?"

I don't know.
As others have pointed out, a little contrition would go a long way towards mending the rift, but the FDP doesn't seem interested in that.
Instead they make demands and issue statements that they refuse to consider a non-binding primary.

"Is this something like an anti-Dean operation?"

It's probably the personal pride of a few state leaders and a general bristling at national party control of what they deem to be Florida's sole decision.

"If so, is it possible that the Florida group may force their way into the convention hall or protest loudly outside it?"

Protest yes.
I doubt they will be seated until it's clear who the nominee will be, at which point that person will open the doors to them in the interest of party unity.