About Ahmedinajad's appearances:

[Skidmore]

and I will probably be flamed for this:

1. The Iranian culture is an old one with a formal etiquette system and you don't insult a guest (invited or otherwise) ever, even if it is an enemy.

2. That he engaged at all is an opportunity for response and should not be discounted--this is a culture also concerned with preserving "face."

3. Whether your Western sensibilities and cultural baggage squares with those another culture should not serve as an impediment to discourse for discourse is an avenue toward seeking common ground.

4. Iran has a rich history that contributed much to the worlds of philosophy, science, and the arts, and perhaps it would serve to learn a bit about that history before mocking.

5. I think there are better ways of receiving someone for dialogue rather than to set them up to be publicly rebuked and scolded if you are serious about looking for peaceful and constructive ways to resolve global problems.

[knowbody0]

1. msm true colors showing bright

[Justitia]

2. I agree that the Dean's diatribe was outrageous. Did he invite him just to insult him? Let his

craziness or outlandish opinions on things stand out all on their own.

If his ruminations are as nutty as we say (and they are), they will be self-evident.

I think the Dean was just doing Major Ass Covering so he doesn't get disappeared by our own in-house crazies.

[slackmaster]

3. si fueris Romae, Romano vivito more; si fueris alibi, vivito sicut ibi

Get a clue.

[Skidmore]

5. May be you sell me one of those spare vowels.

Which affronted group are you with?

[slackmaster]

9. Which affronted group am I with?

People who believe that all individuals deserve equal protection under the law.

People who believe in the rights of women.

People who believe in the rights of homosexuals.

Popele who support the existence of the Jews and the nation of Israel.

[Skidmore]

15. I would dare say that we have more than our share of citizens

without those sentiments you could work on here before taking another nation with as much history as Iran.

[slackmaster]

18. Sure, but the subject of this thread is Ahmedinejad

Don't throw red herrings at me, Skidmore.

[Skidmore]

34. Ahmedinejad is a product of another culture rooted in

a vastly different way of viewing the world. No red herrings. We have aspects to our culture as well which can be viewed as equally unsavory.

[slackmaster]

38. Moral relativism works only to a point for me

A culture that denies the existence of a segment of its population while hanging them in public cannot be excused by any trait of our culture (I mean our real culture, which is distinct from the policies of our present leaders).

[Skidmore]

45. Exactly what is "our culture", in your estimation?

Is it Catholic, Judaic, Baptist, atheist, what? Is it the corporate code that defines it? Is it media world defined?

[slackmaster]

50. We have a unique, American culture

It's deepest roots IMO are found in the early Pennsylvania colonies - Toleration, community spirit, equality, justice, etc.

[Skidmore]

56. Musta missed those witch trials in Massachusetts.

Ask those old slave masters in Virginy and the Carolinas about fairness and justice.

[burythehatchet]

70. Head on down to Tennessee and walk the Trail of Guffaws

or is that Tears, I can never remember what they call mass exterminations.

[Riktor]

76. Citing practices over century in the grave is counter productive

Moral relativism ends with cruel and unusual punishment, as is stipulated by the UN Declaration of Human Rights. Furthermore, you can speak all you want of the injustice of America, but these injustices do not excuse the injustices of another country. Wrong is wrong, end of story.

I'm not saying we should bar Ahmadinejad from speaking in the US, but your defense is fallacious.

[Skidmore]

79. It's morally dishonest to ignore the existence

injustices in our own system which are allowed to fester and grow while pointing our fingers and judging others. We are not pure.

[Bluerthanblue]

85. -

:hug:

i wish i could speak so clearly

[Riktor]

86. Tu quoque

You're still making the same fallacy. The guilt of the accuser is irrelevant. Just because America has done bad things does not make it acceptable for any other government to do the same. It may make our government dishonest and hypocritical, but it does not make them wrong. Ahmadinejad is the lackey of a brutal theocracy that is responsible for the murder of thousands and the repression of millions. This fact doesn't change depending on who is making the accusation.

While it may disgust you that the American government rarely practices what it preaches, this does not invalidate the morally indefensible actions of the Iranian government. It is logically unsound to suggest otherwise.

Now, if you really wanted to drive a point across, you should have brought up President Bush's reception of Hu Jintao, who spoke at Yale when he visited the United States in 2005. Jintao's regime is guilty of countless human rights violations in China, particularly the suppression of the pacifist Falun Gong. Yet, Jintao was met with open arms by President Bush. Are to we to understand that some dictators are better than others?

[Bluerthanblue]

89. it's a question of

our honesty isn't it?

When we condemn someone for doing something very wrong, and do so as if we are the epitome of 'GOOD'- not only do we make fools of ourselves, we lower the opportunity to be true leaders- to demonstrate with our genuine actions, that we aren't just 'talk'- that it isn't all a media campaign sold to the world.

I would sincerely love America to be the land we claim it is. It feels like we're living in a television show- The media plays all these scripted scenes designed to make us look so good, kind, patient, generous, wise, and honest, but where do we invest our nations riches? We bitch and moan about the way people are treated in Iran, yet right here at home we have

Upwards of 3.5MILLION people are homeless- 40% of are families with children-
25% are Vets.
One out of every 32 adults in America is either in prison, on probation, or on parole.
More young Black males go to prison than college?
The US leads the world in the number of rapes per capita.
We also put more of our own people in jail than any other nation.

We can question Iran's treatment of GLBT individuals- but we need to admit there is room for a lot of improvement in our own society. We have much to account for in this world-

more than any of us imagine.

[Riktor]

93. Again, no it isn't

Look at this objectively.

You and I both know there's tons of room for improvement in American policy, both foreign and domestic. The American government is guilty of countless acts of barbarism and oppression across the third world. So, when we see Bush disparage Ahmadinejad, it makes us upset because Bush isn't practicing what he preaches. It is hypocritical and it is enraging. However, you have to look at it like this: If Bush were to say Ahmadinejad represents a corrupt and brutal government, is he factually incorrect?

Of course not. It may not make Bush a good person, but his argument is logically sound. The rules of logic stipulate the sins of the accuser don't absolve or invalidate the sins of the accused. What Ahmadinejad's country is doing is morally wrong, regardless of what Bush is doing here.

Now, you can certainly call Bush out for being a hypocrite, but you cannot logically defend Ahmadinejad based on that in and of itself.

[Hydra]

100. Nicely put

You'd think we were some angelic nation, to hear some people. Our path of destruction and conquest west and then all over the world speaks volumes of our "great history"

[burythehatchet]

68. That has to be the funniest post I have read here in a long time

Toleration, community spirit, equality, justice, etc.....so long as yer a White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.

Man, that's hilarious.

[Jed Dilligan]

92. That's so far from true

I don't even know where to begin.

[slackmaster]

95. Self-loathing never got us anywhere, Jed

Practice a positive American culture, encourage others to do so, and it will become a reality.

[Jed Dilligan]

96. Through weird nationalistic historical myths? No thanks.

[Pawel K]

46. Wow, that's quite the affiliation you have

Popele who support the existence of the Jews and the nation of Israel? Yup, you're right, fuck everyone else in the middle east or the rest of the world that disagrees? I mean come on, what right do the palestinians have to pissed off? Or those thousand innocent people that died last summer because Israel was going through a hissy fit, fuck them too. :sarcasm:

[applegrove]

4. I think he should have to answer any question that comes his way whether

he agrees to speak at Columbia or agrees to a 60 Minutes interview. Same as with anybody else. Why should he get speacial treatment?

[Skidmore]

8. My point was

that there are cultural contexts that should be considered in this interaction, not all of them Western or U.S. in origin.

[cali]

27. He came here.

He made the decision to go to Columbia, to speak to Sixty minutes. It's that simple.

[Skidmore]

52. I believe he was invited by Columbia to address the student body

while he was here to speak at the UN.

[applegrove]

74. And how often when asked to speak at a university does a public figure have to

answer questions? Almost always I would say. Tis the nature of speaking in front of a university.

[Dr. Strange]

10. I disagree.

He's a guest in our country; we should have been more respectful of his culture.
Instead of insulting him, the dean should have brought in some homosexuals and had them flogged. Make Ahmedinajad feel at home...except that they don't have any homosexuals there. But you get the idea.

[onenote]

97. to get respect, you have to earn it

What has Ahmadinejad done to earn your respect?

[sinkingfeeling]

29. Shouldn't we start with making our own government, office holders, and spokespeople, do that first?

[applegrove]

75. The Bush WH has so not answered any questions in the past 6 years

that a 'leader being questioned on his actions' seems traumatizing to some.

[lazer47]

6. Why would you get flamed for stating it like it is??

Dialog has to begin with talking, and it requires both sides to understand each others history.

[WillyT]

7. No Flames From Me, You Are Exactly Correct !!! - K & R !!!

:kick:

[KharmaTrain]

11. Made For TV Theater...

I agree with most of what you post. Just a few observations. We're seeing a passion play in this country...a push by the corporate and media elite to create a boogie man that distracts from their own ineptness and corruption. Many of us have grown up with a myopic view of the world...how everything that happens is seen through an American media prism. No matter what the issue, it's "how does it affect us"...and thus "American interests" are imposed on other parts of the world and "American views" are imposed on other cultures. Countries that don't "measure up" are savage or "third-world" or a threat. Leaders that don't conform to this "American World Order" are a lunatic and their people are savages. We're seeing this play out on the streets of New York.

Face it, most Americans can't find Iran on a map, yet could associate this culture with that of the Persians. They see a culture that's been portrayed for most of their lives as savages who invaded our embassy and now want to nuke us. The narrative is distorted and has fully clouded this "dialogue" as much as it did last year when Chavez was that year's boggie man.

[Zandor]

12. "Western sensibilities and cultural baggage"

You mean things like believing gays shouldn't be executed?

[the other one]

41. They should only denied civil rights

Like many would have it here in america. Or maybe just reeducated away from their sinful lifestyle choice.

Wheee!!! Sliding down that slippery slope!

[Malikshah]

54. Well, of course that *never* happens here. Nope, never.

Sorry, but that red herring don't hunt no more.

Try again.

Scratch that.

[whistle]

13. Those were a summary of Ahmedinajad's opening remarks and he said

...much musc more. Everyone who is interested should watch his whole presentation on CSpan-3 when it is rebroadcast

[eleny]

14. Thank you

If Nixon can go to China and Russia, surely we can learn to deal with Iran without resorting to bombs - verbal as well as nuclear.

[1love]

20. Iran

Just because GWB et el are wrong does not make this man correct. Actions speak louder than words. Nothing he could come here and say cancels out his actions in Iran. Would you support/defend a politician in this country that imposed a dress code on women, denied the Holocaust, jailed dissenters etc. Of course you wouldn't. Why on earth would you accept it from someone else. Human rights violations are human rights violations. It is a far cry from wanting to avoid bombing Iran to making excuses for their actions regarding their citizens. How they treat women, gays, and non muslims might be cultural but it is WRONG. It would be wrong here and it is wrong there. I have no problem saying we should try to change their culture. I just don't think war is the answer. Don't get it twisted and make it seem like he is something he is not.

[Skidmore]

37. I say we should not be casting stones. Where is it written that

we are so morally superior that we have the right to change anyone's culture?

[democrat2thecore]

57. Except you

You have said in another post there is no difference between the U.S. under Bush than Iran under Islamic law. What makes YOU so morally superior to make such a statement? You seem to come across as an apologist for Islamic radicalism. An enemy (This nutcase) of our enemy (Bush) is NOT our friend.

[Skidmore]

63. I have said only that we are from different cultures with far

more subtleties that can be accounted for by the interactions we saw today. I did not say he was our friend. I said that the way to discourse is not by spitting in someone's face and insulting him/her. And I would venture that you would know an Islamic radical even if Rush pointed him out to you and took a picture for you.

[democrat2thecore]

73. What?????

"And I would venture that you would know an Islamic radical even if Rush pointed him out to you and took a picture for you."
And what the HELL is that supposed to mean? Islamic radicals only exist in Rush Limbaugh's world? Are you implying that I would even LISTEN to the scumbag Limbaugh? How insulting!

[SlowDownFast]

84. Uh-huh.

First, remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye...etc.

You catch more flies with honey...

[eleny]

I never said that the president of Iran "is correct"

So, if you insist on starting with that misrepresentation of my opinion - you and I can get nowhere.

I do believe in dialog with all other nations as our Democratic candidates espouse.

Btw, the United States has embraced some miserable policies. Extraordinary rendition, attacking a nation without provocation, nullifying much of our Bill of Rights. Frankly, I'm more worried about us today.

[Bluerthanblue]

87. very well said

Eleny.

If we want to change bad behaviors, the best place to start is with ourselves.

The best leaders do so by example not force.

:hi:

humility is under-rated in our world.(imo) for what it's worth.

[durrrty libby]

16. I understand your point but isn't it hypocritical to be respectful

to someone who hangs people because of their sexual orientation?

Do they deserve respect or prosecution?

[ROakes1019]

19. or to nations

that imprison people picked up all over the world and held without charges and tortured? Who are we to hurl insults at other cultures?

[Skidmore]

24. I would suggest to you that you need to learn a little more about

Iranian etiquette. People just don't sit around and talk about sex in the manner we do here and the religion has very prescriptive practices surrounding sex. We are also talking about a culture that until recently in history did not portray the human form paintings. Where do you think those beautiful designs on the mosques came from? This is a different culture with an entirely different mindset than we find here. Why is that so hard to understand?

[AngryAmish]

39. Human form unknown in Persian art???

Maybe not.

The ban on representational art in Islamic art waxes and wanes.

Maybe some research (not multicultural university kumbaya bs) would help.

[Skidmore]

47. I should have be more specific.

Under Islam, yes, the human form in art was prohibited.

[AngryAmish]

69. So before Islam, at times during, and recently used the human form in art

So in the many thousand year history of persian civilization would it be fair to say the use of the human form is the norm or for the short period of Islamic domination the form is not used?

[1love]

42. Just because it's different does not make it right....

You could make exactly the same argument about fundamentalist christians, or racism. They to have a culture that they embrace.I see the value in understanding, but I will never go so far as to endorse it. And in my opinion to leave it unchallenged negates the people who have suffered in countries where women have no right to self determination. It is one thing to choose a head covering. It is another to have it imposed. Pretending that it is all ok cuz well people are just different is messed up in my mind.

[durrrty libby]

59. "Iranian etiquette" ??He fucking hangs children because they are gay

He does not deserve RESPECT.

"beautiful designs on the mosques"

He fucking hangs children because they are gay

"Why is that so hard to understand?" back atcha



Culture smulture...He fucking hangs children because they are gay

[eleny]

25. They deserve neither respect nor prosecution

It's not our country. We're stuck with a world of people who do all sorts of things we don't do or like.

I think we should get rid of the death penalty in the U.S. And we ought to concentrate on never, ever allowing someone to be President of the United States who acted like GW Bush when he was governor of Texas. He made fun of someone who he refused to pardon from the death penalty when she begged him for mercy.

And we ought never allow ourselves to have a president whose foreign policy is characterized by hegemony.

In other words - we should not throw rocks when we live in a fragile, glass house.

Thanks for your question.

[Skidmore]

62. Will someone explain to me how we are so morally superior?

[zippy890]

17. well said. thank you

:dem:

[ClayZ]

21. Thanks, I agree with you! K and R

[distantearlywarning]

22. Western sensibilities and cultural baggage

That's what keeps me unenlightened enough to fail to see the merit in repressing women and stoning gays to death. I need a cultural sensitivity class, quick, before I start doing something even crazier like believing the Holocaust actually happened.

[Skidmore]

31. Do you realize that it wasn't until the Shah's father was placed in

power that people were required to take surnames? I remember an older woman telling me about her shock as a young girl when the veil was removed by mandate--told me that she hid at home because she felt naked. At a time when hejab had become a choice, she chose to wear it as did many other women. You know, what you wear does not make who you are as a person. I'm just saying that here in the West we have a caricature of the Iranian culture and mind. Other nations view us just as simplistically. Our women walk around virtually naked these days and behind a veil of trowelled on makeup....wouldn't be caught dead without it. We have the death penalty too and it is applied often cynically to people who are deemed discardable. How are we superior?

[distantearlywarning]

77. What America does in no way excuses what happens in Iran.

Nor does it make Ahmadinejad a good guy.

See my post here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1894062

If you want to talk about the way women are perceived in America, well, we could certainly do that in another thread. I'm sure we would have similar views.

[Skidmore]

80. Did I say that he was a good guy or excuse what happens in Iran?

I said a couple of things essentially--that we see through the filter of own own culture and do not understand the nuances of another culture in a way that will contribute to effective dialogue, and that we are the last people on the face of the earth right now who should be handing our moral dictums.

[distantearlywarning]

82. You responded to my criticism of Ahmadinejad and his theocracy

by citing America's problems. Further, there was an implication that America's acts in previous decades were a catalyst for today's problems in Iran. Which may very well be true, but which still doesn't justify Ahmadinejad's statements or actions today.

In my opinion, executing homosexuals (for instance) is not an act that falls under "nuance of culture", but rather crosses a moral boundary that should be in place for all cultures, and at the very least should be part of any progressive belief system. Your opinion may differ, of course. For instance, you may be a moral or cultural relativist. I am not and have never been one, and cannot be talked into moral relativism, so if we disagree on that basic life philosophy, there is probably no need to even discuss this issue further becuase we will never come to any agreement.

I also do not believe that one can effectively "dialogue" with leaders who have consciously evil intent towards their citizens and other nations, as I believe Ahmadinejad does. In fact, I think it is dangerous for nations and people to work hard at "understanding" bullies without also preparing to protect themselves against them (and yes, that includes other nations with regard to our own American version of bullying in the world).

I agree that AMERICA as a whole should not be handing down moral dictums to anyone, given our behavior in recent years. Neither should we be engaging in any more wars based on the premise of removing an evil dictator. However, I personally am not AMERICA as a whole. I don't support or agree with the policies of the current administration, and in fact I actively work against them. Therefore, I feel safe in personally criticizing Ahmadinejad for his poor behavior without fear of hypocracy.

Further, even if the entity that is AMERICA is not morally righteous enough to condemn another world leader for his actions, that in no way means that said world leader's actions are ok, or even worthy of attention. All it means is that some other nation should stand up and condemn him. It is quite possible for Ahmadinejad/Iran AND Bush/America to both be bad, so it is not adequate to bolster your support of Ahmadinejad by condemning America.

Yes, I hate Ahmadinejad. I think he's an evil fundie bastard, and it bothers me tremendously that people, especially liberals for God's sake, think we should give even the slightest iota of attention to his viewpoint. I think you are completely, totally, dead wrong about all of your talk about "dialogue" and whatever else about him. He's incredibly dangerous and bad. And probably crazy as a bedbug.

But does that mean that I want to go to war with Iran? Absolutely not. I am 100%, firmly and completely opposed to that, and I resent the hell of MSM for helping Bush pound the war drums lately.

And believe it or not, I think he actually should have been allowed to lay the wreath at the towers. He didn't perpetrate 9-11, and not letting him do it just gave that asshole more positive attention. I think it was in bad taste for Columbia to ask him to speak, and if I were a Columbia student I would have protested, but I wouldn't advocate forbidding it. I believe in free speech, even crazy evil free speech. But I'm not going to pretend that it isn't crazy and evil just because I approve of his right to say it. And you shouldn't either.

[KoKo]

23. The Dean is under huge pressure over this....but I agree with you

in that under the Bushies heads of other counries are treated like Fox News Treats Democrats. And, if anyone utters any criticism of the Bush policies the Attack Machine goes into warp speed...while Bush and M$M feel free to go after anyone as fair game with insults, slurs and McCarthy tactics.

[TornadoTN]

26. Thanks for this. People are far too easy to forget this in their march to condemn

Granted, this man is deplorable for many reasons, but we ourselves the opportunity to engage this man and his country in meaningful debate and conversation. Who knows - both sides just might be able to affect positive change on the other.

[democrat2thecore]

28. "...Whether your Western sensibilities and cultural baggage..."

What did you mean when you wrote, "Whether your Western sensibilities and cultural baggage squares with those of another culture?"

You ARE aware that Iran hasn't always been a fundamentalist Islamic state, right? Rich heritage aside, the Iran that the Ayatollahs have brought to that country is nothing but repression of women, gays, any-other-faith-but-Islam, and I could go on and on. Is hostage-taking, sanctioned by the government, part of their "etiquette?"

Iran and Iran under Islamic law are two different things. But thanks for the lecture.

[EFerrari]

33. And YOU are aware, aren't you, that the CIA destroyed secular

Iranian democracy in the 50s? Chickens, meet threshold.

[democrat2thecore]

49. Oh...ABSOLUTELY.....

Two separate issues. Islamic law is the issue and what the poster was equating with the ages-old Iran. I know about the Shah and the whole bit. My post still asks a question of the OP unrelated to that period.

[sinkingfeeling]

36. And is over-throwing an elected president of a sovereign country by

our government part of our etiquette? If you hate Iran under Islamic law, what you going to do with the USA under Christian law?

[Skidmore]

44. I know much more about this that I care to share right now.

I will tell you that Iran under Islamic law was no better or worse than what I see in our nation now under the religous right faction of the Republican administration.

[democrat2thecore]

51. Okay - you have lost ALL credibility with me -nt

[Skidmore]

60. Well, before dismissing me so summarily at least tell me why.

My life expereinces have taught me more than navelgazing. Perhaps you shouldn't be so ready to discount other voices.

[EFerrari]

30. Thank you. Between the cultural differences and the hurricane

of spin, it's very difficult to just listen. k&r

[alcibiades_mystery]

32. Americans are cheering the public upbraiding of this guy

Which is likely the response he was hoping for.

That's what's ironic about this. This guy is Br'er Rabbit: Please don't scold me publicly at Columbia!

Right.

[lligrd]

35. I Agree. It Came Across As Rude.

He might as well have signed on to O'Reilly's show. I don't like the guy but there was no need for the President to start off like that. The students questions would have been enough.

[slackmaster]

40. I think hanging people for their sexual orientation is kind of rude too

But maybe that's just my Western cultural baggage talking.

[lligrd]

66. I Agree And It Would Be A Great Question To Ask

just not an introductory remark about a guest, which is what he was.

[THUNDER HANDS]

43. i agree

but then again, people on both sides of the aisle like to make themselves think they're better than everyone else.

You don't have to agree with what he says, but at least respect the guy for showing up and subjecting himself to an open debate.

It's more than leaders in this country are willing to give us.

[Riktor]

48. Talking to Ahmadinejad won't resolve anything...

... because foreign policy is determined by the Guardian Council and approved by Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. Ahmadinejad is merely the democratic facade of the whole system, he has no more authority to disband Iran's nuclear program than I do.

[Cha]

53. But, the corporatemediawhores want more wars..

they're still in buSHIT'S pockets and they won't stop until Iran is bombed to pieces like Iraq.

I think it's pretty ironic that ahmedinajad is speaking in the US when the sabres are Rattling Big Time. Imagine if sadam had been scheduled to come over here just before March 20, 2003?

[PDenton]

55. The Dean of Columbia was an insulting dirtbag

That is no way to treat a head of state. Calling him a dictator and other invectives was beyond the pale.

Of course Ahmadinajad made some silly sounding statements, at least to Western ears, but generally I thought he was trying to be conciliatory towards the American people. It is too bad because the mainstream media is going to take his silly comments and run for all it is worth, and you'll hear the Rightwing and Freepers parroting them and playing with them for all they are worth.

[CC]

58. My biggest problem with

Ahmadinejad's visit and speech is the faux outrage of bush-co and the talking heads. It sounds way to much like our recent past. Change the name to Saddam and it is a replay of what was parroted before the war in Iraq. Whether what our intel agencies say it true or not I have no idea anymore. Going by their recent history I have to take anything out of our government with a large grain of salt. Maybe I would have a little less trouble with it if they were as vocal about what the Saudis do and who they support along with a few dozen other dictators that bush-co supports.
The best way for bush-co to get the Iraqmire out of the news and out of the sheeples minds is to start a new war and Iran is just sitting there looking too tempting for them to ignore or even worse in their minds work toward a solution that would avoid war.

Added-I don't see many other leaders of countries speeches to universities aired on the cable news channels like this one was. Wouldn't it of made more sense to ignore his speech and not give him more airtime than they give all our Democratic primary candidates combined?

[Little Star]

61. Well put skidmore. K&R

Aside from the gay issue I thought he had very valid points. I do not understand how people can be so closed minded to the culture of the Iranians. Maybe with some understanding of their side and some engagement, both sides can learn something. Why no one in the western world cares about the plight of the Palestinian people is beyond me.

Our own country still allows dragging blacks and homosexuals on the back of trucks till they are dead. We have so many injustices happening in this country everyday how can we be so judgmental of the backwardness of Muslim countries. And about our corporal punishment, how backward is that?

And as to that disgusting rant by the president of Columbia I felt very ashamed.

This world needs to start bringing peace and start understanding we are all in this together. No country or culture is without backwardness and I say lets start at cleaning up our own morals toward all the people of the world. But nooooo, We prefer to incite more of the hatfield and McCoy mentality and spread it far and wide.

I did not agree with the gay Sharia law thing but neither do I agree with our own radical religious right with our president as the head cheerleader.

I was glad to her him speak and actually found him to be more reasonable than anything the west has come up with.

I am a firm believer in 'not everything is as simple as it appears'.

I also do not believe there is anything wrong with further study on the Holocaust and thought his point about where this whole issue has led to total devastation of the Palestinian people was reasonable.

[1love]

65. It is still not legal here to kill gay people here

It may happen, but it is against the law. It is not state sanctioned at least on the books. I'm not saying we shouldn't deal with the country, but to excuse their actions while we bash people here for the same or lesser actions is insane.

I have no problem with working on the problems here, but any woman who says she wants to live in Iran as opposed to the United States is on a hippy dippy trip.

Saudi Arabia is worse, but once again just because someplace is worse doesn't make Iran some freakin' left wing dream.

It's this type of idiocy that makes the left wing look like fools. Yes we have to deal with Iran. Yes we should use diplomacy instead of bombing them. But for the love internal consistency could we not excuse behavior from them that we would scream about from our own politicians.

[Mojorabbit]

88. But treating

him to a lecture like he is three years old is not going to effect any change is it except for the worse.

[chimpymustgo]

81. Excellent post, Little Star. And thanks for the OP, skidmore.

I was appalled by Bollinger's tirade, but quite fascinated by Ahmadinejad's. I'm very glad he was allowed to speak.

[Atman]

64. NO WAY! They all live in caves and fuck goats!

Really, man! I swear! Rhandi said so! And so did Bush! We gotta BOMB 'EM, man! Can't have cave-dwelling goat-fuckers living just 10,000 mile away from us! They might export their cave-dwelling, goat-fucking ways to 'Murka! On the back a noo-cu-lar bomb! No shit! Sean Hannity told me.

Or was it Rush?

Or Bill-O?

Either way, FUCK 'EM! Uh...the Iranians, not the goats.

.

[MedleyMisty]

67. What's the problem with letting the man speak?

A lot of people right here in the US would hang gay people if they could. Should they have their rights stripped away and not be allowed to air their opinions? I mean, yeah, they should be prosecuted if they actually commit hate crimes but then they're US citizens so we can do that, whereas we can't go bombing other countries just because we don't like their domestic policies. Yes, it's awful. Yes, it's wrong. But that's a fight that the Iranians are going to have to fight themselves. As far as I know, no one invaded and occupied us to force us to give women the vote or to racially integrate schools, and no one seems to be gearing up to invade us to force us to legalize gay marriage - which, by the way, the fact that it's not legal and that people do commit hate crimes against gay people and that the airwaves and internet are full of Americans saying that gay people should be treated here like they're treated in Iran should show you that we're not exactly perfect on the issue ourselves.

And do you think that if Bush wasn't allowed to speak and/or was gravely insulted in another country that it would really change anything or help us with our struggles here?

By the way, has anyone else noticed that an awful lot of Republicans who could give less than a damn about women and children and homosexuals are the first to use the "But they're awful to women!" excuse for attacking another country? I'm female and I live in the US, and I have to tell you that women are not treated totally equally to the people with penises here. Yeah, we've made a lot of progress, but we've got a long long ways to go before we can get all self-righteous about it.

It's not like anyone is forced to listen to him or to agree with him if they do listen, although it seems to me that listening and talking to each other will get a lot more done with a lot less deaths and blood and suffering than plugging our fingers in our ears and going "I can't hear you!". Sometimes, especially if you're a world leader, you have to hold your nose and deal with people that you don't like and don't agree with.

I used to work at Arby's, and sometimes people would come through the drive-thru in Hummers. I had to be nice to them. Same thing on a different scale.

I mean, yeah, hate him and disagree with him all you want. It's just that a few of the posts seem to be leaning towards saying that he shouldn't be allowed to speak. Maybe I'm just misinterpreting. I do that a lot. If so, sorry and treat this as a missive directed at the media and at people who really do think that he shouldn't be allowed to speak and/or we should invade Iran.

[1love]

72. I am pro free speech...

I had no problem with allowing him to speak. However, the benefit of free speech is the ability to challenge the statements of the person making the speech. Sunshine is the answer to hatred. To allow someone who denies the Holocaust, and says that Israel should not exist to speak and to not challenge him is wrong in my opinion. Yes he is entitled to his opinion. He is entitled to speak his opinion. He is not entitled to have it go unchallenged. Or IMHO to have it dismissed as cultural.

[slipslidingaway]

71. Constitutional Revolution of Iran...It's about the people

This may not be the most complete or the most accurate account, but I think we need to realize that the people of Iran struggled for decades to have a say in their government.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/constitutional_revolution/constitutional_revolution.php

"During the early 1900s the only way to save country from government corruption and foreign manipulation was to make a written code of laws. This sentiment caused the Constitutional Revolution. There had been a series of ongoing covert and overt activities against Naser o-Din Shah’s despotic rule, for which many had lost their lives. The efforts of freedom fighters finally bore fruit during the reign of Moazaferedin Shah. Mozafaredin shah ascended to throne on June 1896. In the wake of the relentless efforts of freedom fighters, Mozafar o-Din Shah of Qajar dynasty was forced to issue the decree for the constitution and the creation of an elected parliament (the Majlis) in August 5, 1906. The royal power limited and a parliamentary system established.


In the 50's they had a leader who was not religious and wanted to see more of the profits from oil stay in the country. Then...A short account of 1953 Coup
Operation code-name: TP-AJAX

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/coup53/coup53p1.php


And then under the Shah in the 60's

http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/5024

"When the Iranian government granted immunity to U.S. troops in the 1960s, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini used it to galvanize opposition to the Shah. In a 1964 speech, Khomeini said, "Our honor has been trampled underfoot; the dignity of Iran has been destroyed." The immunity, according to Khomeini, "reduced the Iranian people to a level lower than that of an American dog."


At one point in the 70's the Shah was spending 40% of the nation's budget on weapons, nixon and Kissinger returned from a week long visit and asked the Congress to approve all weapons sales to Iran.

After turning to religious leaders in the 60's and 70's who opposed the Shah, many people had enough and the hostages were taken in Iran.

There were other complexities during different periods, but I think it helps to keep the struggle of the people in mind.

Please feel free to add or correct.


Thanks for the the OP, K&R.

[Dave From Canada]

78. Bullshit. Truth to power!

[rucky]

91. Where's the truth?

All i hear is bullshit nationalistic propaganda from all corners.

[Dave From Canada]

94. The only propaganda was from Amadinejad. I didn't know he had such a good sense of humor though.

The joke about Iran being gay-free was great. The only topper was his assessment that women in Iran enjoy the highest level of freedoms as in any other country. I gotta admit, he's a funny little man.

[xiamiam]

83. once again I am embarrassed because we are so stupid...you are right, but who is listening?..nt

[rucky]

90. It doesn't matter what culture you're in.

You don't insult a guest.

well, almost every culture. you bastids.

No flames, here. I appreciate the insight.

but it's so much more fun to diss.

[onenote]

98. Ahmadinejad knew exactly what sort of reception he was going to get

and he still showed up. So spare me the crocodile tears about his hurt feelings and cultural issues. Bollinger announced last week exactly what he was going to do when he introduced Ahmadinejad. If Ahmadinejad's sensibilities were going to be offended, he could have, and should have, sought out some other more friendly forum.

Here's Bollinger's letter from Sept 19: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/news/07/09/ahmadinejad2.html

[Jed Dilligan]

99. Of course you are right

It will play to much of the world that we are rude, arrogant bastards.

But in fact we pretty much ARE rude, arrogant bastards on a world standard, and I'm all for people in other countries seeing us as we are.