Yes, he's a Holocaust Denier- And that's according to Juan Cole

[cali]

and thousands of other sources. I keep seeing denial after denial after denial of Ahmadinejad's Denial. First off holding that Holocaust Denial Conference is year was res ipso loqiter.

First from Cole:

Anyone who reads this column knows that I deeply disagree with Ahmadinejad's policies and am not interested in defending him on most things. I profoundly disagree with his characterization of Israel, which is a legitimate United Nations member state, and find his Holocaust denial monstrous. But this quite false charge that he is genocidal is being promoted by Right-Zionists in and out of Congress as a preparatory step to getting up a US war against Iran on false pretences.
http://www.juancole.com/2007/06/ahmadinejad-i-am-not-anti-semitic.html

A bit about the conference:

Participants on the first day of the conference. Left to right: David Duke, former Louisiana State Representative and one-time Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan; Gazi Hussein of Syria; conference chairman Dr Rahmandost, Society for Supporting People of Palestine; Jan Bernhoff, a Swedish computer science teacher at an adult education center who maintains that 300,000 Jews died during the Holocaust <1>; and Holocaust denier Fredrick Töben, director of the Adelaide Institute, Australia.

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_conference

Here's more:
<snip>
Mr Ahmadinejad made the comments while speaking on live TV in the south-eastern city of Zahedan.

"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

He called for Europe or North America - even Alaska - to host a Jewish state, not the Middle East.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told reporters Mr Ahmadinejad's remarks were "shocking".
<snip>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm


Iran: Jewish Leader Criticizes President For Holocaust Denial
By Golnaz Esfandiari

President Ahmadinejad speaking to foreign diplomats in Tehran on 13 February
(epa)
The head of Iran's Jewish community, Haroun Yashayaei, has sent a letter complaining to President Mahmud Ahmadinejad over his Holocaust denial comments. Yashayaei said the remarks have shocked the international community and struck fear within Iran's small Jewish community.
http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/02/fb25e81f-bce9-4291-acdb-cf2c5c69fe92.html

There's a wealth of Ahmadinejad statements both about the Holocaust and Israel that should leave little doubt about his thinking on the subject. Quite simply, he's a hater. Does that make Iran a threat? No, but it shouldn't be brushed under the rug to make a prettier narrative.



If you're denying that he's denying, you're in denial

[Sapphire Blue]

1. K&R

[Lerkfish]

2. well, I don't see us drawing up plans to nuke Mel Gibson's dad.

I'm just sayin.

:shrug:

[tears4terra]

5. Exactly!!!

He can believe what ever the hell he wants to believe. So he's a holocaust denier. So what? Does that mean we turn him into the face of evil to justify bombing Iran?

[cali]

18. LOL!

How dare Juan Cole that evil zionist say that he's actually a Holocaust denier.

Duh, Juan Cole is hardly agitating for war with Iran. And neither am I.
Take that strawman of yours and get him some new clothes.

[tears4terra]

29. Eh?

I agreed with him. So what?

Why do you try to keep badgering me?

[Waya]

6. Yea, well......

.scuse me for saying so......but to this day the United States, as a matter of policy almost, denies the Holocaust of the Native American race. To this day, Columbus is hailed as a great man, Custer is celebrated as a great Soldier, Andrew Jackson was a great president and so on.......so someone tell me how this is much different?

[WillyT]

8. Hey Now... You're Not Supposed To Bring Up OUR Holocaust !!!

Sheesh...

Next you'll be telling me that we put Americans in Internment Camps!

*tsk, tsk*

:spank:

[JuniperLea]

23. And we should never mention those blankets

So thoughtfully and generously given to the American Indians...

Ah heck, why go back so far in history when we can see that kind of denial in our own century... you know, all those people who sat for days in their own filth in NO... you know... those who were so much better off than they were before the storm. (I refuse to put a sarcasm icon there... if you don't get it, you're a dumbass and I don't care what you think anyway.)

[still_one]

13. What are you trying to justify? This thread points out a specific persons comments and views /nt

[cali]

25. Yes indeed that't true, but whjy people are so

desperately flinging up strawmen in this thread is bizarre.

[Lerkfish]

63. well, I know for sure you've misinterpreted at least one "straw man"

but that's ok, I misunderstand people all the time.

[Truth2Tell]

65. What's bizarre

is your OP. Of all the murderous, vile, dictatorships in the world (many supported by the U.S.) - you choose your foreign leader bashing to match the enemies currently slated for vilification by the Bush Administration. Strange coincidental focus, IMO.

[still_one]

10. and the thread isn't calling for that either, just pointing if it walks like a duck,

qwaks like a duck, its a duck

The last election they had in Iran, when he lost seats in the parliment, show that the people their are not enamoured by him either

[cali]

12. give that strawman of yours a kiss for me n/t

[Lerkfish]

61. not meant as a strawman, just sayin if he's a holocaust denier, does that justify preemptive attack?

because that seems to be the way this drumbeat is going.

I should add, that i was NOT disagreeing with your OP, even though your reaction seems to indicate that.

?

[Warren DeMontague]

75. No. It doesn't justify free dinner at Denny's either.

Can you point me to the thread on DU where someone is advocating a pre-emptive attack on Iran? I'll wait.

[Dave From Canada]

67. Mel Gibson's dad isn't the President of a country seeking nuclear weapons, uh, I mean energy.

Wow, I didn't know people were really that obtuse.

[Lerkfish]

68. LOL! well, I can see my point sailed right over your little head

but thanks for playing. Don Pardo, what kind of parting gifts do we have for Dave from Canada?

[Dave From Canada]

71. Maybe because it was funny's cousin....not funny

[Lerkfish]

72. LOL! neither were you. funny, that is.

my point was that being a stupid leader is NOT a reason to preemptively invade that country.

but hey, keep playing with yourself, I've moved on.

[Dave From Canada]

73. Actually, I agree with you, being a stupid leader is definitely not a reason to preemptively invade

a country. If that's the premise you were trying to illustrate from your first post, unfortunately you failed. Better luck next time. :thumbs up:

[Swede]

3. Cali,cali,calli. Don't you know he's being misinterpreted.

Happens to him all the time.

[AX10]

4. K & R!

[xiamiam]

7. before you flame...i think i heard ahmadenijad say on a previous interview that there was more than

one holocaust...what exactly do you call stalins eradication of millions upon millions of people?..we have been taught to focus on one..primarily...what do you call rwanda?...and darfur?..

do you think ahmadenijad posed any questions which we should discuss about among ourselves?

do you think we should talk about palestine?

should we ignore the questions because we hate the man?...should we just bomb the shit out of iran without any dialogue?..without any attempt to educate ourselves about whether he is legitimate in developing nuclear power?...why should india, pakistan and israel have nuclear capabilities yet we threaten to bomb iran for developing?

i can bet you anything that very few in America have asked any questions regarding anything he has said..its just so much easier to label..and disregard anything he has to say...do you think that the rest of the world does that to Bush and Cheney?

please dont flame...im not defending..im just asking what questions we should be addressing in order to avoid disaster...

[Rex]

21. Question to ask.

Does he deny certain events in history? Like the Jewish Holocaust in Germany? It is a simple yes or no answer and yes there are holocausts happing right now, words mean something. No flame here, what does he think?

Iran is run by a group of religious leaders, he gets instructions from them. What a surprise, a different form of government than the USA. Uh oh, we don't do those very well. What to do when we deal with a different form of government hmm, invade, diplomacy, preempt, not really sure.

Flunked that class.

[cali]

28. I'm not going to flame.

Look, sure there's more than one Holocaust, but he's repeatedly denied the Holocaust of Europe's Jews. There really can't be a discussion about whether or not he did; the evidence is overwhelming.

I absolutely think we should talk about Paletine. And Israel. And the Occupation. And American foreign policy in the region.

And I've been very clear about my utter opposition to any attack on Iran. It poses no danger. Such an attack would be immoral, illegal and very likely cataclysmic.

But it drives me buggy to keep reading people who insist that Ahmadinejad's simply being misinterpreted or misunderstood or whatever. I have a strong aversion to that brand of intellectual dishonesty.

Hope that answers your questions.

[xiamiam]

33. is it not true that Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler?..shouldnt we focus on the present

instead of what an academic believes..because he is an academic...and i listen to a lot of scientists who believe absolutely nonsensical things...but i dont want to bomb their house because i think they've got their heads up their ass..

we should be talking about palestine..and Israel..and if Ahmadenijad accomplishes any of that, he will have been successful...but i doubt it...people dont want to ask difficult questions of themselves..its easier to say the guy denies the holocaust and gays so he is one evil sob...at least he came to talk...which deserves some credit...dont you think?

[lips]

39. Point.

If Ahmadinejad is in fact being influenced by groups inside of Iran who want to see the destruction of Israel, it doesn't necessarily follow that he advocates a complete disregard for what happen to the Jews in Europe. What it does mean should be evidenced from what the majority of people think about Israel, Jews, and the Jew's right to be in Israel after what happened in Europe. I confess, I'm largely ignorant of what the majority of the people of Iran believe is the best course of action in negotiating with Israel, but if any negotiations are to have positive results, it's going to be difficult to get to that table by apologizing for someone who asserts that only 200,000 Jews died in the Holocaust.

You don't see America getting along to well with many American Indian tribes by denying the wars, pestillence, and famine that was wroght on the behalf of a manifest theivery? The U.S. government has more current, pressing matters to consider, just like Ahmadinejad has to pay heed to a myriad of arguments before Iranian domestic concerns should be broadened to include other aspects of the region in which it's situated. In short, I don't think it's politically viable for policy makers to produce a coherent picture of what goes on when an entire ethnic group/race is systematically exterminated.

Seems like there are too many instances where Ahmadinejad and/or his spokespersons have contradicted each other, at least on the issue of the jewish genocide.

[movonne]

9. Iraq will be our holocaust....and lots of people will deny it...

[Tom Rinaldo]

11. self edit: wrong post placement n/t

[Tom Rinaldo]

14. Yes he is, but he isn't Iran's leader.

He has less power there than Nancy Pelosi has here.

[slackmaster]

15. That's gonna leave a mark

Recommended!

[cali]

26. It was hardly a difficult search n/t

[JackRiddler]

16. Nuke him!

Drop the bomb! Exterminate the Brutes! Nuke him now!

[cali]

22. Because that's exactly what Juan Cole was saying n/t

[JackRiddler]

46. No. That's why the Hate Ahmadinejad campaign is coming now...

to justify a possible US strike on Iran. And those who bleat along with the media are working for it, too. Unwittingly, I presume.

[Lerkfish]

62. thanks,that's what I'm trying to point out as well

Saddam was also a bad guy...but that didn't justify preemptive invasion and regime change.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. Is that the same imminent strike on Iran we've had coming for the past 2+ years?

And day now. No, really, this time for sure.

[JackRiddler]

77. I am well aware of this aspect...

And have commented on it in much the same way. In fact, if I had to bet, I'd still bet against it.

Nevertheless, are you paying any attention to who is currently pushing this strike openly? It's not Scott Ritter or antiwar actvists issuing warnings that war is imminent, it's Lieberman-Kyl and Bush and Co. calling for war, with warnings coming from the French foreign minister that it is imminent.

If I still think they're not goint to do it, it's still pretty clear that they're standing at the threshold and threatening that they will, yes, absolutely do it.

Ahmadinejad speaks to the UN every year. Is it going to kill you to admit that this year's appearance was selected for a media/government hate campaign as a propaganda preparation for a possible strike, in the same way that Saddam was monsterized leading up to the Iraq war?

[BlooInBloo]

17. Yes! We know that! So what?

[cali]

19. Evidently we don't know that as

there's post after post saying he's not reeallly denying the Holocaust.

[goodgd_yall]

24. Yes, surprisingly, not everybody on DU is accepting that.

[goodgd_yall]

20. I recommend to anyone unfamiliar with Holocaust Denial

Go to Wikipedia and search "Holocaust Denial." What Ahmadinejad said falls right in line with the usual denyer speak. He's an intelligent man and a professor, he said. I'm sure he has read some of the European or American literature from Holocaust denyers.

[KoKo]

30. Pat Buchanan is a Holocaust denyer but I don't hear anyone dissing him and saying

he should be thrown out of the country. He's a commentator for MSNBC. He's as crazy in some ways in his postering as Ahmadinejad...

[cali]

32. Gee, is that what my post said?

Bzzzt. Reading comprehension is your friend. I support his being at Columbia. I have no problem with his going to Ground Zero. I support diplomacy with Iran.

Have fun with your Pat Buchanan strawman.

[BlooInBloo]

42. That's why I asked "so what?" Let it be acknoweldged. What follows?

[goodgd_yall]

35. Who's saying Ahmadinejad should be thrown out of the country?

The point is to enlighten those who heard him speak and believe he is not denying the Holocaust.

[JuniperLea]

27. All humans should be free to believe as they like

So what? Let him think what he wants.

Some people believe in one God, some another... so what?

Some very old-school Catholics believe homosexuality is an abomination... so what?

I don't care what you believe, and you shouldn't care what I believe. Beliefs and actions are two entirely different things.

I will listen to fools and to sages... I will listen to all possible views... I may not believe in what you have to say, but I'll defend to my death your right to say it. I hate abortion with every fiber of my being, but I'll be dammed if I will stand back and let someone take that choice away from women.

Sorry, life isn't quite as black and white as you seem to think it should be.

I think we should listen to the man, try to understand his perspective, and try to reason with him... you know, diplomacy. If we don't, we are no better than the worst thing you can think about him.

[cali]

31. And just out of curiosity do you carry that philosophy

into how you view bush or cheney?

Listen, I'm all for diplomacy with Iran, though hopefully it will be with professional Iranian diplomats on board, too. And I've repeated that over and over.

But yes, it's important to be intellectually honest about any world leader whether it was Sharon or Ahmadinejad.

[JuniperLea]

34. Yes, I do

I listen to both fools and sages. None of us is so 'wise' that we cannot learn from another human being. I believe in listening especially attentively to my 'ememies'... I want to know them intimately. I want to know why they think as they do, not merely how they do. Bush and Cheney have the same rights I do... they can think anything and believe anything they choose. To use those beliefs 'against' another, or to try and force their beliefs upon another, is wrong. Thought is not action.

The sad thing about this thread is mirrored on DU.

There are very few good listeners left here.

There is little empathy, and there is very little ability to see from another's perspective.

All these things are crucial to good communication.

One might assume a liberal message board would have more of such things than the general population, but sadly, this is not the case.

Intellectually honest? Do you mean, intellectually superior?

[cali]

41. I admire that. I can no longer listen

to bush or cheney or any member of that administration. I see them as fools and despicable knaves.

Unfortunately you have neglected to point out what is wrong with my OP. And it's interesting to me that you pick this thread as an example of what's wrong here when there are many,many far more strident and threads running right now in GD.

I've made it clear ad nauseum that I am against any agression towards Iran, that I want to the U.S engaged in diplomacy with them.

No, I mean intellectual honesty.

[JuniperLea]

50. Interesting, is it?

I guess you have missed the many other threads wherein I've said basically the same thing.

If you want diplomacy, then you must be for the freedom of all people, no matter how dispicable you find them or their ideas, to speak their minds.

[cali]

56. One more time;

I support Ahmadinejad speaking anywhere he has an invitation. I have no problem with his going to ground zero. I tried to listen to him. I don't accept his rhetoric.

[JuniperLea]

69. Once more and again...

You don't have to agree with someone to a) believe they have a right to speak, and b) believe they have a right to their beliefs.

[tears4terra]

36. You have an agenda...

Sometimes you come across as being able to dialog with (like this comment) but then you turn and start flinging insults. I'm new here and I've already got you pegged! You don't want to converse. You want to judge.

PS: Still waiting to hear what YOUR doing about your concern with AIPAC's influence on US foreign policy. Goodbye.

[here_is_to_hope]

53. Welcome to DU!

And please, do make use of our rather handy "ignore" feature...:toast:

[tears4terra]

57. Thank you!!!

:toast:

[fenriswolf]

37. actually im not seeing anything in those links that states

that he denies the holocaust happened, or denies that it was a tragic event, or denies that it was wrong. what seems to be happening is that they propose it was not on the scale that everyone else says it is, and that the state of isreal uses that sad chapter for their own ends. Also i think he makes a valid point that isreal upsets the entire region around it. I do not condone these actions, I do not believe anything, i do am not anti sementic and I have no problem with the jewish faith, just saying they make a couple of point.

[goodgd_yall]

40. Denying it was not on the scale that has been reported and documented

is what Holocaust denying is all about. It is not literally saying it didn't happen, but that it was "no big deal."

People who are making the point that he is a Holocaust denyer should not be confused with those who have uncritical support of Israel.

[Malikshah]

44. See my link from CNN-- the language is indeed bizarre

But the translation of myth is key here and the most damning.

How can something that he states is a myth be discussed later on as instrumental in the cause of the current crises? Hence the fact that he's an idiot-- as are the reporters who cover him.

[cali]

45. What a remarkable ability

you have to deny then. He calls it a myth. He personally set up a Holocaust Denial Conference with David Duke and others even worse. Juan Cole calls him a holocaust denier.

And I'll take your word for it that you're not "anti-sementic".

[xiamiam]

49. THIS is THE problem...all over America anytime anyone wants to talk about any of this...someone is

going to have to defend themselves about whether they are or are not anti semetic...its the biggest damned elephant in any room...and from my perspective, its tired...

[Malikshah]

38. Here's CNN coverage of Ahmadinjad's statement from 2005

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/12/14/iran.israel/

"Last week, he also expressed doubt about the killing by the Nazis of six million Jews during World War II, but Wednesday was the first occasion when he said in public that the Holocaust was a myth.

"They have invented a myth that Jews were massacred and place this above God, religions and the prophets," Ahmadinejad said in a speech to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan, according to a report on Wednesday from Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting.

"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets," he said. "(It) deals very severely with those who deny this myth but does not do anything to those who deny God, religion, and the prophet."

"If you have burned the Jews, why don't you give a piece of Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to Israel," Ahmadinejad said.

"Our question is, if you have committed this huge crime, why should the innocent nation of Palestine pay for this crime?"

[question everything]

43. Obviously, Ahmedinejad's attack on Israel

and on Bush generate adulations here, on DU.

But what about his persecutions of homosexuals and any other opposing views?

Shouldn't this count with the ones who describe themselves as liberals? Or have DUers got so tunnel visioned, like freepers, that they operate by the "you are either with us or against us?"

How amazing that DUers propagate the thought process of Bush.

[fenriswolf]

52. no just the fact

that we realize that the world is a messed up place and that we cannot fix everything and that if we were gonna play world police/protector that their are alot better candidates for our attention then iran. the fact that we do not want to fall into the cirular arguments about iran state that we are not following bush, that we acknoledge that iran has humanitarian problems but that it is not our place to fix it as we have our own problems and attacking another country or drumming up support for attacking another country is not what we want, this is not a hot button issue as this has been the status quo for along time and the only reason it is getting press and being discussed is so people can go "what a nut job" "i hope somoene takes out that gay basher" "horrible how they treat women" "we should fix that country" I think we should forget iran and stop messing with the middle east and focus on our problems.

[xiamiam]

54. Amen...

[sampsonblk]

47. Still no reason to bomb him or prevent him from visiting

I agree that's pretty bad stuff. He isn't alone in his vies either. Unfortunately.

But we have no reason banning or bombing the guy because he's wacko. He ain't the first. And he won't be the last.

[cali]

48. And of course that's what I said in my OP n/t

[Junkdrawer]

51. So I guess you agree with Cole that we're "Demonizing the Iranian president..."

and making his visit to New York seem controversial are all part of the neoconservative push for yet another war."

'Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's visit to New York to address the United Nations General Assembly has become a media circus. But the controversy does not stem from the reasons usually cited.

The media has focused on debating whether he should be allowed to speak at Columbia University on Monday, or whether his request to visit Ground Zero, the site of the Sept. 11 attack in lower Manhattan, should have been honored. His request was rejected, even though Iran expressed sympathy with the United States in the aftermath of those attacks and Iranians held candlelight vigils for the victims. Iran felt that it and other Shiite populations had also suffered at the hands of al-Qaida, and that there might now be an opportunity for a new opening to the United States.

Instead, the U.S. State Department denounced Ahmadinejad as himself little more than a terrorist. Critics have also cited his statements about the Holocaust or his hopes that the Israeli state will collapse. He has been depicted as a Hitler figure intent on killing Israeli Jews, even though he is not commander in chief of the Iranian armed forces, has never invaded any other country, denies he is an anti-Semite, has never called for any Israeli civilians to be killed, and allows Iran's 20,000 Jews to have representation in Parliament. . .

The real reason his visit is controversial is that the American right has decided the United States needs to go to war against Iran. Ahmadinejad is therefore being configured as an enemy head of state. '


http://www.juancole.com/

Oh wait, maybe you're just cherry-picking the quotes that serve your agenda.

[fenriswolf]

55. love it, he should be an allie of america, not an enemy

but of course we can never have allies that have established rules that commit humanitarian offenses (china, saudi arabia, S korea, etc, etc, etc, get the point?)

[cali]

58. Yes, I agree with him. NO I didn't cherry pick.

That's why I posted this entire paragraph:

Anyone who reads this column knows that I deeply disagree with Ahmadinejad's policies and am not interested in defending him on most things. I profoundly disagree with his characterization of Israel, which is a legitimate United Nations member state, and find his Holocaust denial monstrous. But this quite false charge that he is genocidal is being promoted by Right-Zionists in and out of Congress as a preparatory step to getting up a US war against Iran on false pretences.
http://www.juancole.com/2007/06/ahmadinejad-i-am-not-an...


and I linked.

[Junkdrawer]

59. NOT THE FULL PARAGRAPH...

Anyone who reads this column knows that I deeply disagree with Ahmadinejad's policies and am not interested in defending him on most things. I profoundly disagree with his characterization of Israel, which is a legitimate United Nations member state, and find his Holocaust denial monstrous. But this quite false charge that he is genocidal is being promoted by Right-Zionists in and out of Congress as a preparatory step to getting up a US war against Iran on false pretences. I don't want to see my country destroyed by being further embroiled in the Middle East for the wrong reasons. If the Israeli hardliners and their American amen corner want a war with Iran, let them fight it themselves and leave young 18 year old Americans alone.

[tkmorris]

64. Interesting.......

[Whisp]

66. that's not Cherry Picking, that's editing

to your own needs of message.
good catch.

:rofl:

[Prophet 451]

60. Yep, he's a nutter

The world is, sadly, full of nutters.

[Whisp]

70. if you are quoting Juan Cole I'm supposing you

are a fan and hold his opinions highly.

What are your thoughs on his tenure denial to Yale? just curious.

[cali]

78. I have a high regard for

quite a bit of what he's written. I know that he was denied tenure at Yale, but that's all I know about it. I can't see any reason why he was denied tenure, but again, I don't know much about it.

fyi- I thought DePaul denying tenure to finklestein was wrong- I know more about that situation, and that Alan Dershowitz exerted undue pressure; and I don't think much of Finklestein

I trust that answers your question.

[Mike03]

74. Some Thoughts

Personally, I do take Juan Cole very seriously, but just in a larger sense, on the topic of Holocaust Denial--and I understand there is debate over whether Ahmadinejad is or isn't--why can't people understand why it is psychologically traumatic and a cause of acute anxiety to be told that you or your relatives did not suffer in the way that you or they know that they suffered?

What could be more invalidating of a horrific private, intensely horrifying experience?

I can't think of many things more insulting that to have a crucial, painful chapter of one's life, or the chapter of a relative, denied or marginalized by fiction and toxic mythology. It's just a very intensely cruel act, to deny someone has suffered.

I believe it could even rob people of their sanity. Trauma needs to be respected and acknowledge, and denial is like psychic poison to people who have suffered unspeakable events.

[Zandor]

79. Thank you, Cali

K & R