It’s not a credit problem stupid; It’s the result of OUTSOURCING.

[Flabbergasted]

Sub prime credit problems are not the real issue but a symptom of the underlying issue. The issue is labor. A quick review of some of the economies worldwide effected currently by "the Sub-prime Crisis indicates two things:

#1. Developing economies such as China, India, Brazil, Mexico, and Russia have positive outlooks on their prospects and are not facing credit problems because their labor force is becoming more affluent due to outsourcing. They are becoming more wealthy. And they are putting their cash into savings and investments.

#2. Developed countries with high labor costs and availability to credit are becoming less affluent because corporate investment has focused on moving labor to foreign markets.

Sub-prime credit problems are the symptom not the cause which is: Corporations moving their operations into economies where they face drastically lower labor costs.

This is emphasized by Sam Zell from this Forbes article:

http://www.forbes.com/home/entrepreneurs/2007/09/21/zell-eop-blackstone-ent-fin-cx_kw_0921whartonzell.html

Master real estate investor Sam Zell has built a fortune on the cycles that shape his industry. These days, he believes the current turmoil in financial markets is more an emotional reaction to another period of excess, not a true credit collapse.

snip

In 1999, Zell decided the REIT concept that had worked so well in the United States could be replicated in other parts of the world. He now controls major home builders in Mexico and Brazil, and is also branching out to India, China and Egypt.

He said the Guadalajara office of the Mexican company, Homex, is open 24 hours a day, seven days a week, to meet the needs of Mexican home buyers. "The beauty of all these places is there is unlimited demand," said Zell. "If you go back to Econ. 101, these countries have huge backlogs of housing demand. The population is increasing and housing has not."

No wonder this guy is positive about the economy he’s moving into markets which have an increase in consumers able to purchase homes. In the US and Europe there has been a decrease in the number of people able to afford homes but have done so anyway in what I regard as a scam of monumental proportions. Without the Sub prime Credit Institutions the economy would not have recovered during Bush's mis-administration

This is a failure of political leadership to the greatest degree. To say that those in high places both within the government, corporations and the banking system did not know about this coming crisis is hopelessly naive. We have been screaming about outsourcing for years and now that it has come to bite us in the ass we call it a credit crunch.

Last Laugh is on us....

[LSparkle]

1. Yeah, calling it a "credit crunch" blames individual workers, while

"outsourcing" places the blame where it belongs -- on GREEDY CORPORATIONS.

[sendero]

2. No its not...

... it is people unwilling to accept that their standard of living is going down, and trying to maintain it through ill-considered borrowing.

Nobody MAKES people borrow money they cannot repay, they do it willingly.

[Lost4words]

5. you still have a job dont you?

[sendero]

9. After 4 years of not really having..

... one, yes I do.

[LynneSin]

41. He does have a point

I just bought a house and I dealt with alot of realtors until I found a great gal who really understood what I was looking for.

Mind you, I was not a subprime candidate but I can see where the issue can be.

These massive mortgages are being offered to people who have much less than perfect credit. And the realtors will push you to get the biggest house out there you are qualified to purchase. Hell I could have bought a $250k home and probably survive the payments. But could I afford it? Hell No. I knew something at that price could get me into some serious credit problem.

But there are people out there that assume that if the mortgage company are willing to give them all this money for a house then by god they (the buyers) will find a house at that price.

This is not absolving the creditors or real estate industry for the problem. But there are plenty of people out there more than happy to push themselves to the brink of credit disaster without much of a plan "b" for what to do should the price of the house be more than what they can afford.

[Flabbergasted]

13. Democrats typically believe it is one of the proper functions of government to....

regulate and keep track of the banking system and provide policy to keep the economy and banking system from collapsing. In our current economy, one of outsourcing and free trade, a banking model lending money to those incapable of maintaining their loans longterm is a moral and ethical outrage and an obvious problem for longterm stability.

In a sound banking system you never loan to those who can't pay back their loans. And you never leave that responsibility up to the borrower. This was an obviously flawed banking model which was allowed to continue because it maintained the economy for a few more years. The banks and government are responsible for the system and overall economic outlook. Pubs have looked the other way and betrayed this country.

[sendero]

14. I never said..

... that the lenders had no blame in this mess. But nobody made people take out stupid stupid loans.

You can't rape the willing and in America there are plenty of people who will buy into anything if it lets them continue to live beyond their means.

[Flabbergasted]

16. And I never said the blame was not partly on the borrower...

But the issue is not credit its outsourcing and lack of government regulation.

[sendero]

17. The OP claims..

... that the credit crunch is all about outsourcing. I say "bullshit".

I'm not defending outsourcing, far from it. But if you want to get all up on your high horse about it remember this - Bill Clinton got the ball rolling in a big way.

[Flabbergasted]

18. Ok I'm willing to agree to disagree

However bringing up Clinton is obvious disingenuous

[sendero]

19. No,,,

.... it is an inconvenient truth. I was there, the absurdly one-sided trade with China and the outsourcing, first of high tech jobs, started under the Big Dog, and he was an active booster.

Deny til you are blue, I WAS THERE.

[Flabbergasted]

20. I am in agreement with Clinton's role.

[sendero]

24. I'm about as big an economic populist..

.... you're likely to meet. I knew back in the 90s the absurd idea that importing from China (if you were there you will recall that the other side of the equation was that they would buy from us, as you can see that didn't turn out too well as any moron could have predicted) was going to be a net benefit to America. It isn't.

My point is simple. While our government has sold the working man down the river, that is indisputable and it's not just Republicans either, the working man has plenty to answer for also.

People don't save money any more. What do all these people think they are going to do when they are 70? SS will not be able to pay anything near the benefits it is paying now, and it is not easy to live on SS benefits even now.

We've been heading for this for years now and anyone paying attention could see it coming. I realize the poor are just trying to keep themselves fed, but there is a huge middle class in this country that lives like idiots when it comes to money.

There is nothing the Federal govt can do about this, because they are as broke as the rest of the country.

[Flabbergasted]

27. We are in total agreement.

[nolabels]

31. Yea, blame the rest of the population for a myriad of fucked up governement policies.

Works for me because i be a naive too. The backlash is a coming so be ready when you hear it snap back :-)

[sendero]

33. There's going to be a backlash all right..

... but it isn't going to be what you think.

THE HOUSING CRISIS WAS AIDED AND ABETED by government policies, but CAUSED by IDIOTS.

[Yavin4]

36. It's Called The Illusion of a Middle Class

If you send the entire job base overseas, the masses will take umbrage and demand political solutions. They will form unions to protect their jobs and vote for politicians who will pass legislation to protect jobs as well.

The way around this is to let the masses borrow any amount of money whether they can pay it or not. This way, you create the "illusion of a Middle Class".

[rucky]

32. They were "leveraging"

and didn't consider their home values may go down before their ARMs floated. It was a decent strategy, but to speculate on the housing market 2-3 years out is quite risky. I don't think people considered the risks involved, but it's not fair to imply that only people with lotsa cash on-hand should be given investment opportunities or have the right to own homes.

[Mythsaje]

3. Kick n/t

[Lost4words]

4. I couldnt agree with you more!

I am happy to be the first to recommend!

[PDenton]

6. How many homeless people can you fit into a McMansion?

There isn't enough subsidized housing in the US, that's another problem. There should be more mandated buildings of smaller homes for first-time buyers, townhouses, and subsidized housing. Instead of forcing buyers into buying mortgages they couldn't afford. The whole housing industry needs far more regulation and government oversight and planning to meet human needs, NOT MARKET NEEDS.

[sendero]

10. God what a bunch of happy-talk

Home builders build the houses people will BUY.

The "sub-prime" mess is not a result of people having no money, it is the result of people who have SOME money wanting to live like they have MORE MONEY. And people who think they are "investors" trying to make a quick easy buck.

No I don't want the government involved in telling builders what to build, it's not a governmental role.

[PDenton]

28. What is the government's role then?

To throw people at the mercy of markets that may or may not share their interests?

[FreakinDJ]

7. The WHOLE COUNTRY is Bankrupt

Credit Crunch my Ass

WE MANUFACTURE NOTHING - EXPORT NOTHING

Just how is this country going to pay off the trade imbalance brought on by the consumption of foreign oil, goods, and services

[sendero]

11. Finally....

... a post in this thread I can agree with.

[FreakinDJ]

21. Dems better get it together

Because this is going to be a MUCH BIGGER ISSUE in the 08 election cycle then many here think

Free Trade simply isn't Free

Some one has got to pay the Piper and the Ratpublicans wish it would be you and me. All the while greedy corporations has pursued this course with the cooperation of dim-witted consumers

[pampango]

29. I realize that hyperbole sells, but do you have any figures to back up your

contention that "WE MANUFACTURE NOTHING - EXPORT NOTHING".

The last figures I saw were that the US was the #2 exporter in the world behind Germany. China was about to surpass us at that time so we may be #3 now, but it's not like we don't export anything.

[Yavin4]

38. Stats Showing U.S. Export Are Misleading

Mattel is a U.S. corp. They mfg all of their toys in China (leaded and unleaded). When Mattel exports overseas to Europe, it's counted as a U.S. export, but few American jobs are attached to that export.

Official economic stats on exports, jobs, inflation, etc. are hopelessly out of synch with the modern world. You cannot use WWII era stats in the 21st century.

[pampango]

47. I understand where you are coming from, but the definition of "export"

at the WTO website indicates that they use the country of origin or manufacture, not where the corporate headquarters is located. In your example they would consider toys manufactured in China for Mattel as Chinese exports and as imports to the US or Europe or wherever the toys were sold. That's one of the reasons that our official trade deficit with China is so large. When US companies, e.g. Mattel, Dell, and a host of others, set up shop there then send the goods to the US or some other country, it counts as exports from China and imports to the US or other receiving country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade

Terms such as exports, jobs, and inflation still have meaning. They just need to be redefined to reflect modern realities. If we are going to talk about our economy, international trade, immigration, etc. we have to have accurate terms and statistics we can use. Otherwise, any discussion degenerates into emotion without any way to discuss it objectively.

Do you know of a source for a definition of "exports" and "imports" that relies on the location of the corporate headquarters?

[Yavin4]

53. According to Wiki, Here's The Definition of An Export

"A foreign-origin item exported from the United States, transmitted or transhipped through the United States, or being returned from the United States to its foreign country of origin is considered an export"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Export

So, according to that definition, if Mattel makes the item in China, and that item is "transmitted or transhipped through the United States", then it's counted as an U.S. export.

Here's another example of how economic data is out of whack. Look at temporary workers. Temps are, and have been, the fastest growing component of the U.S. labor force. Now, if you work a temp job for 4 hours on one day in the past week, and the BLS people survey you, then you are considered employed.

[pampango]

55. But goods manufactured in China or any foreign country are exports of that country

regardless of the nationality of the company. Exports of China to the US are considered Chinese exports and US imports regardless of the identity of the company.

If Mattel toys, on the other hand, are made in China and exported directly to Europe, which is usually the most efficient way to do it, then again they are Chinese exports, not US exports. Goods that are transhipped through the US would be counted differently, but, as Wiki points out, that is usually only done if the mode of transport, like from ship to road or rail transport.

For all practical purposes our exports are US made, not made in some foreign country. I agree with your view of temporary workers.

[Yavin4]

57. It Depends On How The Relationship Is Established

If Mattel contracts a Chinese mfg. to make the toys and buys from that company, then yes, that's a Chinese export. If Mattel sets up a wholly own subsidiary in China to make the toys, then that's a U.S. export.

The Honda and Toyota factories here in the U.S. are not making American made cars.

[pampango]

58. According to Wiki you are wrong.

If Honda and Toyota exported cars from their American factories, which I don't think they do to any great extent, those would count as American exports because they are manufactured here. The fact that the factories are owned by Japanese isn't relevant to that designation.

"An item is considered an export (of the US)...(even) if it is going to a wholly owned U.S. subsidiary in a foreign country." Likewise if a wholly owned subsidiary of Mattel in China exports to Mattel in the US it is considered an export of China. Even if Toyota was exporting a car from the US to Toyota Japan it would still be considered a US export, because it was made here.

[fenriswolf]

8. the only candidate to bring up this issue

is dennis kucinich and the only candidate on record to work to get rid of free trade starting day 1, their can be no fixes while america contineus to be a service oriented economy(some economy) while american companies can outsource factories to countries with no environmental regulations, worker regulation and then ship those products back to america with almost no tariffs or taxes. Dennis Kucinich for the economic well being of america.

[FreakinDJ]

22. Edwards is on board as well

Vowing to throw out NAFTA and China's trade agreements which is costing us our jobs and billions in taxes spent on interest for the National Dept

[redqueen]

48. Doesn't Edwards want to renegotiate NAFTA? Not throw it out?

:shrug:

[yella_dawg]

12. I strongly disagree

Both the credit crunch and outsourcing are symptoms of capital migration. Capital has been fleeing the US at least since the Reagan years, and the pace has accelerated significantly under Bush. The players to watch are the various central banks. They're panicking.

[Flabbergasted]

15. "Capital Migration" is part of outsourcing.

[Hotler]

23. Is it time to start framing outsourcing as unpatriotic???

Start slinging it back in their faces like they did us when we dared question the little turd about his war. If you hire illegal immigrants, outsource your labor, you're unpatriotic. If you hire communist workers you're a fucking traitor. IMO the reason the USA is not a major manufacturing capital like it used to be is because or greed. There I said it.

[FreakinDJ]

25. Good Point

But first you better start with some of the Dem Leaders as well.

Corporate donations knows no bounds these days

[Hotler]

26. Roger that! eom.

[MadHound]

30. I agree that outsourcing is a huge problem, but the credit crunch is a huge, seperate problem also

People have made poor decisions concerning credit, and are starting to get screwed. Some were simply falling for the bait, trying to get a home on the cheap. Others refused to take their own personal finances into consideration, and thus used ARMs and subprime loans to get a house that was waaay beyond their means. Still others were trying to make the quick buck, flipping houses and believing that the bubble wouldn't pop. This isn't the fault of outsourcing, this is the result of poor decisions made by these individuals. The same poor decisions that many people have made by putting everything on the credit card, from that vacation in the Bahamas to the new water ski to their morning latte for the past three years.

Outsourcing is a huge problem also, and while there is some overlap, it isn't the cause of the credit crunch. Human greed and human stupidity are the causes, same as it's always been.

[Lost4words]

34. I just love the blame the victims crowd!

[pampango]

40. How about the "I'm a victim. None of this is my fault" crowd?

Or is the blame partly external and partly "my" fault?

[Lost4words]

49. Assigning blame is a non productive action. what does it fix?

[Flabbergasted]

50. You can't fix a problem unless you know and admit what it is.

[Lost4words]

61. There is as least one of everything on this earth,

I will never forget who the true enemies of our nation and our way of life truly are and you know what, they dont live anywhere near me, they dont shop where I do, and they dont eat where I do.

They are in their locked down estates, gated communities, that is where the evil emanates from. The highest halls and offices.

The mistakes of the average joe trying to get their part of the dream isnt behind all thats going on, its the unmitigated gaul the blatant greed and lack of concern for fellow Citizens of the US.

Take Take Take, if its profitable its the American thing to do!

Dont waste your frustration on the little guys, remember the savings and loan debacle in the 80s?

You should be angry, but not at your fellow stiffs trying to get buy.

[MadHound]

52. So you don't think people should suffer the consequences of their own greed and stupidity?

See my post, 51, below, for a further explanation of my position on this.

[Raksha]

56. People ARE suffering the consequences of their own greed

and stupidity. And also the consequences of their own bad luck, outsourcing, sudden medical crises, etc. The headline on my local paper for Wednesday, September 19th reads: Foreclosures soaring in region: Filings quadruple versus year ago.

I refuse to blame that entirely on "greed and stupidity."

[Yavin4]

39. You Are Missing The Point

From 2001 through 2003, interest rates were at historical lows, and this presented the best opportunity for millions of Americans to buy homes. Home ownership is a cornerstone of becoming middle class in America, and these exotic loan packages were the key to making that dream a reality. To blame people for trying to take advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity is plain wrong.

The overall problem here is that regulators allowed these easy credit terms as a way to assuage the masses while outsourcing raged on.

[pampango]

42. You are right about the lure of home ownership as a symbol of joining

the middle class. To the extent that low interest rates and exotic loan packages made it possible for people who wouldn't have otherwise qualified to buy a home, it is difficult to blame them for taking advantage of a rare opportunity. However, those who used these same factors to upgrade to McMansions are much harder to feel sorry for.

[MadHound]

51. Why is blaming people for the stupidity of their actions "plain wrong"?

Nobody forced a gun to their heads, nobody held their family hostage, no, instead these people failed to read the contract, thought that their ARM interest rate would never go up(though if they had looked at any sort of data they would have realized otherwise), instead they let their greed get the better of them and they fucked up. Many of these people weren't even looking for a home to live in, they were jumping on the house flipping bandwagon, thinking that they too good make some good side money. They got caught, and now they're having to pay the price. Meanwhile, their very stupidity has adversely affected friends of mine, people who didn't buy into the ARM hype. Now that they're moving and selling their house, they're having a hard time because stupid, greedy people collapsed the housing market, not only lowering the price my friends are going to receive for their house, but extending the time they have to keep it on the market.

In addition, the greed and stupidity of these people have endangered our entire economy, and because of that greed and stupidity, you and I and everybody else might just be on the verge of an economic tumble that will make the Great Depression look like the Roaring Twenties by comparison. Gee, thanks:eyes:

Yes, the mortgage firms have some fine, bright and sparkly mortgage deals, designed to suck people in. Yes, interest rates were low, and thirty year fixed rates seemed stogy by comparison. But in the end, it was and is the responsibility of the person taking out the loan to know fully well what they're getting into, the risks and rewards of the deal and whether or not they can afford it. There are plenty of financial advisers out there, many are even low cost or free for people with little money. There are plenty of good laymen's books on home buying down at your local library. However it is up to the individual to utilize these resources.

I bought a house during this time period, and I knew that ARMs were a sucker's game. I did my research, I asked questions and asked for advice. And upon gathering all of this information, I made the decision that I felt was best, namely that I didn't want an ARM or other fancy mortgage tool. I wanted to know, month in and month out that my payment would remain the same, and couldn't suddenly balloon up to double the original. I'm not a sophisticated guy with any sort of degree in economics or accounting, just an ordinary Joe who did his research.

When you are buying a house you are making probably what will be the biggest investment of your life. Therefore this should clue you into the fact that it isn't something to take likely, neither the house itself nor the loan mechanism by which you're going to acquire it. It is your own personal responsibility to do the work and research necessary to find out if this is the right decision for you, whether the house is faulty, and to choose the best funding mechanism available for your circumstances and risk aversion. Sadly, many people didn't do this, instead treating it like they would any other casual purchase. And now they are getting burned due to their lack of planning, their greed and their own stupidity. Oh fucking well, I really can't find it in my heart to grieve for people who through their own irresponsibility got in way over their head. Frankly, they're rather pissing me off, since they're greed and stupidity could very well drag the economy over a cliff, taking us all along with it.

There are good reasons that some house buying practices that are tried and true, namely that you get a fixed rate mortgage, ten percent down, and that your house payment doesn't go over a quarter of your paycheck. These have been tested time and again and found valid. If your house payment is over that magic number, then your own personal economics dictate that you shouldn't buy a house right now. Same with down payments, if you can't lay at least ten percent down, rent some more for awhile and save your money. I know, it is the American dream to have a house, but don't sacrifice your life for it. Hell, I waited until I was thirty two years old to buy my first house, and it was a wee tiny thing at that. But it was within my means. I've seen these kids right out of college going out and getting the big McMansion on the hill, going beyond their means, putting nothing down, with a floating interest rate, all to say to the world "Hey, look at me!" And now they're having to pay the piper. Well gee, why should I feel sorry for that kind of idiocy?

[Lost4words]

60. I have read enough to know I dont like you much!

You have a poor opinion of your fellow humans dont you, if only the rest of the world were as sharp as you, you wouldnt be in this mess with all the idiots.

Well my friend no matter how smart you are you are smack dab in the middle of this crap with the rest of us. This is rape of the middle class and its not the fault of people trying to achieve the dream. If you want to blame, blame the US companies that have shipped millions of good jobs out of the country and then claim the US education wasnt up to the challenge. Bullshit!

So you might want to look at your view of things again.

Sorry we are pulling you down.

[MadHound]

62. Call me desperately cynical if you like, but the sad thing is that humanity

Has exceeded my cynicism time and again.

I realize that outsourcing is driving this country to ruin, and I oppose it with every fiber of my being. But blaming outsourcing, or predatory lenders or what have you obscures the fact that far too many people let their greed override their common sense. They purchased homes that they couldn't afford, used lending tools that are dicey at best, and it was they who signed on the dotted line. Outsourcing had nothing to do with those poor decisions, predatory lending firms simply offered these temptations, but it is the individual homebuyers who risked their future due to caving into greed and failing to use their common sense.

Yes, I'm smack dab in the middle of this crap with everybody else. But I also used my common sense when purchasing my house, I didn't go for the glitzy ARMs and what have you, and I certainly didn't buy a house beyond my means. Yet somehow you want to absolve the people who did these things, who let their greed and stupidity rule them, absolve them of all the blame in the matter? Why? Is it not their fault that they signed onto the dotted line for something that any sane, rational person would know is a disaster waiting to happen?

Yes, the middle class is being destroyed by many forces, outsourcing, energy prices, national debt, etc. etc. But one factor in this mess is the greed and stupidity of people who want it all, the big house, the big car, and that isn't the fault of any other institution force at work. It is the fault of the person who signed the dotted line.

Being fiscally responsible, especially in this day and age, is the purview of each and every one of us. Sadly, there are too many people who want to blame everybody else in this matter except themselves. Sorry, it doesn't work that way. When you find yourself in a hole and wanting to get out, the absolutely wrong thing to do is to keep digging. Sadly, that's what many people have done, and yes, we're all paying the price for it.

And frankly, if all you're basing your opinion of me on is a single post on an anonymous internet chatboard, well then perhaps you're simply a person whom it isn't worthwhile to get to know. Ce la vie.

[Yavin4]

35. THANK YOU!! THANK YOU !!! THANK YOU!!

I've been saying this literally since 2002 when the Fed deliberately kept rates at historical lows to prop up the Bush admin. It's no coincidence that Bush's popularity started to tank when interest rates climbed above 5%.

The U.S. economy has had no growth outside of inflation since 2001, and that's what's killing the housing market. Interest rates went up and homeowners folded like houses of cards.

[porphyrian]

37. But wait, we have to blame the victims, not the profiteers.

If we start the bad habit of expecting truth and accountability, people will stop accepting blame for the actions of the few in power.

[xchrom]

43. while no one forced individuals to make bad decisions --

no one forced all these corporations to offer bad loans either.

and spend millions promoting them, millions on lobbyists to keep congress far away -- your masses in ANY civilization will always be prey to devious schemes of one sort or another -- from nazism to this ''credit crisis'' to hummers.

the point is that year after year more and more of our significant manufacturing jobs are going over seas to cheaper labour.

so much so that now in india corporations and individuals both can get their fuckin taxes done.

more -- year in and year out -- the wages each of us make are under pressure with keeping with costs of living -- which continuously outstrips us at a worrying pace.

yes individuals participate in this folly -- but they neither created it, abetted, lubricated it's growth, or much else.

i will only blame them for buying what ronald reagan -- the snake oil salesman extraordinaire was selling -- and what his disciple have been selling ever since.

[Romulox]

44. The only one who likes "free trade" with dictatorships more than a Republican is a DEMOCRAT...

Criticize outsourcing all you want. You can't make political hay of the issue when the leading Democrats supports outsourcing as enthusiastically as the Republicans.

And meanwhile, Democrats are negotiating more "free trade" deals in private:

As Congress reconvenes this week, K Street and a handful of Democratic congressional leaders are gearing up to pass lobbyist-written trade pacts with Peru, Panama, South Korea and Columbia - the group of pacts known as The Secret Trade Deal of 2007, originally announced on May 10, 2007.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/secret-trade-deal-report_b_62998.html

[The2ndWheel]

45. We don't get to have everything

You want easy travel and communication on a global scale? You're going to get outsourcing. You want to put everything on credit? You better have the money to pay for it.

Centralized institutions that impact the lives of more and more people everyday have only the power we give them. In our quest for comfort and convenience, we've given up, and are continuing to give up, more and more power to them, be they corporations or governments.

That's why those Visa commercials where there is a long line of people buying this and that bug me. There is always one guy in line with just cash. It holds the line up for, maybe, 3 extra seconds. Everyone in line behind that guy, and the cashier(they'll all be out of a job soon, hopefully that's why they're pissed) have a "what the hell are you doing" look on their faces. Then the point of the ad comes up when the announcer states that "life takes Visa". There are problems with that slogan on a number of levels, and obviously advertising works, and is a big part of the problem. However, who is standing in this fictitious(but I'm sure becoming factual more and more) line?

We're doing it to ourselves. Yes, the fact that credit is increasingly forced on us is not our doing, but we're buying(or crediting) into it. Yes, we don't want outsourcing, but everything that makes outsourcing possible we want. Well, we just don't get to have everything.

[Yavin4]

46. I Do Concur With Your Sentiment

One cannot complain about outsourcing and refuse to join unions or vote for politician who would protect their economic interests.

If you buy cheap goods at WalMart, you are contributing to globalization.

[guruoo]

54. My #1 financial rule of life: 'Always live beneath your means' n/t

[Skittles]

59. it is both

absolutely yes