It's unfortunate the disturbing Ahmadinejad love fest involving

[cboy4]

some DUers led to the shocking trivialization of the Iranian leader's comment -- "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country." -- when of course, he hangs children for being gay.

Yup, I'm going to show it again, because this can't be shown enough:




When Ahmadinejad lied about executing gay people today, it for the first time allowed me to sincerely understand how awful Jewish people feel about his long standing comments that Jews weren't executed and that there was no holocaust.

There seemed to be an unfortunate wink and a nod around here today at times concerning Iran's atrocious human rights violations, and it's been very disappointing to say the least.

This Ahmadinejad coward is horrible human being for what he endorses and then lies about it.

And I have no idea why some Duers verbally swept that under the rug. No idea.

How sad.

o n e d i t ----

FOR THE RECORD....I SUPPORTED HIS RIGHT TO SPEAK AT COLUMBIA TODAY.
FOR THE RECORD....I AM ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO WAR WITH IRAN

[rockymountaindem]

1. No! Seriously! It's just Jews and gays man!

He's right about everything else, and that's what matters!

:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

The reaction of some DUers to this fellow has been pretty depressing, though I'm not shocked anymore.

On edit:
I guess this picture is as easy for said people to overlook as yours:

[cboy4]

26. Yea, some Duers don't think it's possible to support his

right to speak today (which I did), and to be against the U.S. bombing Iran (which I am), yet concede that he's a lair and a sneak.

Gotta say nice things about the guy to spite Bush or whomever.

I actually read one poster who said that poster actually trusts him. bwahahahahahahaha!! That's a good one.

[onenote]

143. I'm with you

I supported his right to speak. And he proved by speaking what I felt about him. He is indeed a petty dictator and threat to human rights. And, no I don't think Bollinger was rude or otherwise inappropriate. If chimpy was to speak in another country and a university president in introducing him held his feet to the fire, people here would be cheering (and so would I). No difference.

And like you, I can support letting him speak, be opposed to the US taking precipitous military action against iran, and still believe Ahmadinejad is a lying megalamaniac.

And I don't have to engage in a comparison between him and chimpy in order to reach these conclusions.

[truedelphi]

185. I'm in the boat with you. Let's keep rowing steadily. n/t

[mhatrw]

187. How is he a petty dictator? He's not a dictator at all.

How is he a "lying megalamaniac"? He doesn't even rule his own country!

[cboy4]

216. He's definitely not a dictator. He's only a monster. n/t

[uppityperson]

191. Exactly, what you said. eom

[dailykoff]

257. The hangings in the OP were for the rape and murder

of two young boys, according to the AP:

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12445

[SOS]

283. "Rights groups dispute claims teens were hanged for being gay"

From the The Washington Blade:
By ELIZABETH WEILL-GREENBERG (edit)
Jul. 29, 2005

A photo of two teenaged males being hanged in Iran last week swept across the Internet with claims they were executed for being gay.

But the circumstances that triggered the executions are now being questioned by several human rights groups, which claim the teenagers, Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, may not have been killed for being gay.

Research conducted by the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International has found, so far, that the teenagers were convicted of and executed for sexually assaulting a 13-year-old male, a crime that occurred when the two teens may have been minors.

It appears that reports claiming the boys were executed for being gay originated with the National Council of Resistance of Iran, an opposition group that is classified as a terrorist organization by the U.S. State Department.

“It was not a gay case,” said Paula Ettelbrick, executive director of the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission, taking issue with the Human Rights Campaign’s statement that was quick to condemn the execution as anti-gay.

“We would welcome HRC’s involvement in demanding that our government speak out on human rights violations. It was just the wrong case,” she said.

http://washingtonblade.com/print.cfm?content_id=6165

[dailykoff]

284. I'm sure it's all just a BIG misunderstanding.

Like all the other lies the RW peddles.

[LSparkle]

2. That comment disturbed me most of all ... he really IS deluded

He may make some points that ring somewhat true (sorry for all those qualifiers) but, as they say, "a broken clock is right twice a day."

[Fearless]

9. I'm not defending him... but...

look at his face as he makes that comment. It was a lie and he knows it, he was poking fun. Ill tasteful yes, but still he's not delusional (at least about that).

[LostinVA]

199. "Poking fun"?!

Hitler's lying about the Jews was just some lying fun too, eh?

[Fearless]

278. Evidently the " " was insufficient.

Poking fun = a snide aside. You know, like Bu$h does every time he does that goofy attempt at a headbobbing grin.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.


And what's this Hitler and the Jews thing? Is that what we always turn to when we've got nothing better to say? Oh I'm right, becuase of Hitler's treatment of the Jews. Give me a break.

"Monsieur l'abbé, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write."

-Voltaire, letter to M. le Riche, February 6, 1770

[cigsandcoffee]

3. Hear! Fucking hear!

If I have to hear one more person comparing their shit leadership to what American Evangelicals may or may not wish for, I'm going to puke. If one American Evangelical does to a gay what we see the Iranian government doing in full accordance with their laws, he'll go to the electric chair for it.

Let's get some fucking perspective.

[sendero]

18. Believe me..

... if they could get away with it, they would.

[cigsandcoffee]

34. They can't get away with it. They'd be executed themselves.

See the difference there? It's a big one.

[superkia]

43. Like killing thousands of innocent people in a war for money.

They would be executed if they lied to go to war for money and oil and thousands died. They would never make it here in America because we are so righteous. Our government isn't a bunch of saints you know and they are allowed to get away with what they want. I havent seen any checks and balances in our system for some time now. I think Americans see themselves as who we once were, not for what our government is now. If the word of the people continues to disappear like our constitution, we may see more people being killed by our government. Our government makes the rules and we have no say, if they like it, its good.

[Blashyrkh]

86. Hang on....

So you see a significant difference between executing gays and ensuring their entire lives are lived as second class citizens? Both the US and Iran treat homosexuals as less than human and both countries should be called for it.

[progpen]

152. Yes, there is a significant difference...

between executing them and demoralizing them. You are correct that both are wrong and both should be held accountable. But killing is forever, demoralization is usually temporary and can be fixed. You can't undo the demoralization, but if you fix it, the person is still alive.

[ThinkFoward]

270. but...

...if you demoralize someone long enough you can push that person into an early death (i.e: suicide) now considering the glbt community already has the highest rate of suicide around the world then the demoralizing has a large impact. so in reality the only difference between the two countries is one kills their homosexuals by hanging/stoning/etc while the other kills them with words which makes both countries exactly as the same. a death is a death no matter what shape the knife is.

[progpen]

285. I agree with you...

that demoralizing the GLBT community is sick and has a long reaching negative impact. All I'm saying is that if you are trying to get members of the general populace to take you seriously, then equating repression with execution may lose some of them.

If the US were Iran, then Barney Frank, Ellen DeGeneres, Greg Louganis and many other role models would have been executed long ago. But they are around and speaking out.

You can say that the US still has a very long way to go toward gay rights, but to say we are the same as Iran.....

I love my country and believe that the US is greatest in the world, but we still have a long row to hoe to get where we need to be.

[Dorian Gray]

154. Yes

but here we are allowed to protest and march in support of our gay friends. They are allowed to lobby the government to get the same rights that the rest of us have. If you are going to be honest, you can not compare Iran to the US in terms of the treatment of the homosexual popualtion.

[Blashyrkh]

253. I can and I will.

Both countries treat homosexuals as a lesser class of citizen. I don't deny there is a gulf in how that discrimination is practised, but the discrimination is present nonetheless.

Every homosexual person who took their own lives as a result of discrimination or harassment, every homosexual person murdered through intolerance, every homosexual person who lives was irreversibly damaged by same, is no different to those that were hanged in Iran.

Both countries practice Government Sanctioned Discrimination.

[ThinkFoward]

271. see post #270

and see exactly how the united states is no different than iran when it comes to the way the homosexual population is treated.

just because people can lobby a government doesn't mean having that right makes one country any different.

[Dorian Gray]

151. If.... IF! that were true....

they don't have the goverment supporting them. They would be prosecuted for their very illegal lynchings.

[Truth2Tell]

24. Bet if you put them in charge you'd see the same shit. n/t

[cigsandcoffee]

37. They are in charge - Bush is Evangelical.

Are the police hanging gays in your town? Not so much here, either.

[mhatrw]

188. That's only because the haven't gotten their way yet. n/t

[cali]

4. You're about to get jumped on 6 ways from Sunday

for using the words "love fest". And I agree with you. State sanctioned killing has ALWAYS given me the willies, from the time I was a little kid. And public state sanctioned killing really freaks me out. Public state sanctioned killing for the "crime" OF being gay?
I don't have the words.

[babylonsister]

5. Granted, he's a liar and hideous, but I was defending his right

to speak in a country that supposed honors free speech, not what he said.

And why is this getting so much attention when he doesn't make the rules to begin with?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1894770

I'll tell ya! It's this current admin we have that is fomenting the hatred so they can go on the attack.
Blame it on the BFEE. If not for them, this would be but a blip on the screen.

But I'm sorry if anyone has been offended, at least by anything I posted.

[Totally Committed]

8. Ditto.

No "love fest" from me.

TC

[sendero]

Same here..

... and I don't care WHAT he says, free speech is free speech.

Let him say his piece and let people judge for themselves.

[bdamomma]

123. Ahmadinejad has free speech and we don't.

I just want to hear what he has to say to UN tomorrow, ok, he is no saint, but we do not have a saint in the WH either, both Iran and the US have some sick ideologues.

[Dorian Gray]

155. And that's what we are doing....

we are judging his words to be serious lacking. I am glad that people now realize he is in no way a representative for our ideals.

[Zywiec]

6. This should be good...

:popcorn:

[cboy4]

16. Well, all I can tell you is I definitely noticed a love fest

among *some* -- NOT a majority or even all.

Never-the-less, I expect some DU babies who look like Ahmadinejad running around in about 9 months because of the limited love fest.

[harun]

132. I saw a limited number not drinking the propaganda kool-aid

and good for them.

People are just sick of the hypocrisy on both sides and don't want to let the Administration trick the public in to supporting yet another war that will destroy a civilization.

[ronnie624]

281. Too late.

That war is coming, and the stooges will never understand the role they played in bringing it about.

[Clintonista2]

7. I saw a topic today with a title something along the lines of...

"Disregarding the homosexual remark, he did great." The OP then went on about how much respect he has for ahmadinejad. It's really, really sickening. It's like saying "disregarding everything fred phelps says, I like him because he hates Bush."

[cboy4]

27. Yuppppp!!! And that's one of the threads I'm referring to. n/t

[devilgrrl]

109. That's one idiot. Why add everyone else into the mix?

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

200. Bingo!

[subsuelo]

10. can you show me a couple example posts

of people expressing love for Ahmadinejad? Thanks!

[Clintonista2]

22. Sure!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3545027&mesg_id=3545027

[subsuelo]

53. ah thanks

that's one I hadn't seen.

[tabasco]

83. How can you call that thread a lovefest?

Did you read the thread or just the title?

If some dumbass posts something dumb and it gets smacked down, I don't call it a lovefest.

[Clintonista2]

144. Ummm it didn't get "smacked down"

There were just as many "I TOTALLY AGREE"'s as there were smack downs in that thread.

[fenriswolf]

11. we havnt swept shit under the rug

we just havnt bought all the BS that the american press are feeding us, many of us have stated time and time again that yes their is F'ed up stuff going on in Iran but it is by far the least of our worries. This man is not a nut job it just goes against the state religion, he is not a dictator if the state did not like it they would repel the law, the man is a diplomat in a religious state that does not allow homosexuality. He has not denied the holocaust has ever happened he has just questioned the scale and how the world community uses the holocaust and the term anti-semite for political gain. A mad man does not activily seek political understanding, a madman does not open his doors for the world to see, a madman tries to hide and conceal everything. I do not love the man as I cannot condone a state that allows that kind of thing to happen but I do not think he is the worst person alive. quit showing those pictures too, not because they offend me but because you are using it to push your own agenda, you are not fighting a cause you are trying to get people to agree with you.

[cboy4]

41. I just hope you were wearing a condom today

tduring the lovefest if you expect me to believe we "haven't sweep shit under the rug."

You just swept more shit in this thread by excusing his lying about whether he's executed gay people. It doesn't matter whether it goes against the state religion. He is a monster for allowing it.

And yes, I will continue to show those photos, because I refuse to allow you to sweep that under the rug as well.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

70. How fucking dare you?

How dare you say that the blood of anyone will be on the head of this DUer. That statement is sickening. It also means that YOU are pre-emptively and wrongly saying that if the U.S. attacks Iran, groups like Amnesty International will bear the resonsibility. That's not only fucked up, it's PROFOUNDLY STUPID.

In the immortal words of Joseph Welch:

Have you no shame sir?

[mhatrw]

189. What the world needs now is outrage, sweet outrage! n/t

[LostinVA]

203. "Flaunting" -- wtf?!

For shame.

And, I do know who the character of "Fenris Wolf" is -- very interesting you chose that screenname.

[Megahurtz]

207. I agree with you. n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

227. Do you excuse Christian fundamentalists brought up in rural parts of the US....

.....when they try to make laws that affect you based on their perspectives and belief system?

[cali]

64. What a load of apologist bullshit

and dishonest apologist bullshit at that.

[Semper_FiFi]

137. Why in the world should the image of the (soon to be) hanged teens be discarded?

Because it doesn't fit into your notion that Ahmadinejad is a "sane" man? He's a despot an anti-semite and a homophobe. I think he should be treated with the same respect he shows to Iranian Gays. No more and no less.

[LostinVA]

204. Quit pushing your agenda

You know, the one where all people should have the right to live and love without fear.

[LostinVA]

202. Pray tell, what frigging "agenda" do those photos support?

The "agenda" of decency and humanity that EVERYONE on here should support? The "agenda" cboy is "pushing" is that of human rights.

WTFever.

[ThinkFoward]

272. every time someone says...

...we haven't swept shit under the rug you just know that when you go poking you will find the biggest shit pile under any rug.

of course things are swept under the rug. the united states doesn't have the cleanest record around and usually one has to go poking in order to find the shit pile. especially when a country is lead by someone who uses a paper shredder like we use toilet paper.

[Poll_Blind]

12. YES, terrible things happen in Iran. NO, WE SHOULD NOT BOMB THEM.

  I would wager that about 99% of the comments you see from DUers can be condensed into my subject line. Same with 99% of the DUers who are perceived as defending Hugo Chavez. And Fidel Castro.

  There is such a polarized environment on DU, even Skinner famously misunderstood the sentiments expressed by hundreds in support of Hugo Chavez, indicating that he wasn't for making Chavez an honorary member of the Democratic party.

  And neither, of course, were we. About Ahmadinejad, about Chavez, or Castro.

  Most of us agree that there are elements in X country that are disturbing, unjust or downright criminal.

  However, so many of us are concerned that each "bash (country)" thread potentially serves the dual purpose of legitimately criticizing what we see as unjust, etc., but also as potentially supporting future military action against that country.

  Because of this, you will find many posters who seemingly "go out of their way" to do what can look like protesting the innocence of one of these questionable individuals or governments. But dig a little deeper, if you care to, and you'll find that so many of the posters will do anything to squelch the ever-beating drums of war.

  Oh yes Iran's treatment of homosexuals is abhorrent. But then again, so are practices in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel and a whole slew of other countries. But the media isn't working hard to whip us into a war with those countries.

  So when you see replies like those which invariably caused you to write this message, consider that we may not disagree as much as it appears on the surface.

PB

[WillyT]

25. Outstanding Post Poll_Blind, You Nailed It !!!

However, so many of us are concerned that each "bash (country)" thread potentially serves the dual purpose of legitimately criticizing what we see as unjust, etc., but also as potentially supporting future military action against that country.

Because of this, you will find many posters who seemingly "go out of their way" to do what can look like protesting the innocence of one of these questionable individuals or governments. But dig a little deeper, if you care to, and you'll find that so many of the posters will do anything to squelch the ever-beating drums of war.

Oh yes Iran's treatment of homosexuals is abhorrent. But then again, so are practices in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Israel and a whole slew of other countries. But the media isn't working hard to whip us into a war with those countries.

EXACTLY!

:applause:

[Atman]

30. A REC FOR THAT POST!

Sorry for "shouting." But I wanted it to be seen. Your comment is far more on-target and helpful than the OP. It shows a much greater understanding of what's going on.

It reminded me of the ex-CIA guy on Bill Maher's show Friday night, saying that no other country's problems automatically deserve the spilling of AMERICAN blood. Maher went nuts...he totally misconstrued the guy's statement, as so many here on DU do. It's the "literal" thing so many of us accuse Republicans and fundies of. Not reading the nuance, not reading between the lines, or better still between the words. Sometimes you cannot say exactly what you mean because of genuine political considerations, or because it will sound too harsh, whatever. So you're forced to do ad-speak. To "sell" your message with words more akin to advertising bullshit that straight-up truth. It's what gets so many fundies believing the bible is literal.

Do you believe shampoo gives you orgasms in the shower? Hopefully not. Then why do you take the LITERAL interpretation of every word you hear/read in the press or on DU even? Sometimes words mean more than their dictionary meanings, especially when strung together with other words. It's time lots of DUers figured that out.

.

[Warren DeMontague]

110. Oh, bull. You acknowledge that Ahmadinejad is an ass and not be advocating war.

You seem to think it's justifiable to assume that anyone who criticizes that shitwit is shilling for the neocons and war (as evidenced, particularly, by the bold text in your post) but we're supposed to understand how "harmless" it is when people protest the dude's "innocence".

Well, here's my take: Most of DU sees Ahmadinejad for what he is- a Flat-Earth Fundy Fuck, the same kind of religious whack-a-doo we would especially like to keep far from the levers of power in this country. A few folks here, OTOH, seemingly determined apparently to live up to the most ludicrous caricatures of "the left" the Rove Axis can manufacture, have gone out of their way to tell us what a "thoughtful" "man of peace" he is, how he cares about "science" and "discussion". Give me a break. He's a totalitarian, theocratic twit. Pointing that out IS not shilling for war with Iran.

[mhatrw]

190. Exactly! Why are we beating the PR drums of war on DU?

Given the CONTEXT of our current situation with Iran, isn't it wiser to point out how we are being played than it is to prove that we can Two Minutes Hate with the best of them?

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Wirthlin's job, Alsop explained, was "to identify the messages that really resonate emotionally with the American people." The theme that struck the deepest emotional chord, they discovered, was "the fact that Saddam Hussein was a madman who had committed atrocities even against his own people, and had tremendous power to do further damage, and he needed to be stopped."

[Megahurtz]

212. Oh So Excellently Well Said!

Thank you Poll_Blind! :applause:

[ronnie624]

282. Well done.

And your comments are completely devoid of screeching, cursing and hyperbole.

Thanks.

[malaise]

13. George Bush is responsible for the deaths of close to a million Iraqis

I do not know how many of them were gay, but they were all human beings.
I condemn all murderers.

[Cha]

20. There ya go...we have a crazed,

deranged despot right in our whitehouse and that asshole gets to go around the world and babble.

[lligrd]

23. He Gives Babbling A Bad Name nt

[malaise]

It's that simple really n/t

[bdamomma]

126. psycho babble

[PDenton]

168. George Bush has probably killed more gays

than Ahmadinejad. The fact that most of the deaths are "collateral" doesn't really matter, does it?

Mahmud Ahmadinejad does not create the laws in Iran. To blame him for the policy positions of Iran is wrong, because the Supreme Council creates the laws based on Shari'a law. Ahmadinejad as an Iranian has to support those laws, he cannot work against them. If there were a different government in Iran, odds are homosexuality would still be illegal there, because the policy is deeply rooted in traditions and religion.

[Junkdrawer]

14. Let Slip the Dogs of War...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1893588&mesg_id=1893588

[lligrd]

15. I Missed The Fest

Where was it? Is this the Bush love fest? Because if you are against Ahmadinejad you must love Bush. :sarcasm:

[cboy4]

45. LOL! Exactly.

:thumbsup:

[lligrd]

49. Yikes, I Found The Lovefest - Warning Pretty Scary

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=6961896&mesg_id=6961896

[sandnsea]

17. Did Saddam kill gays?

I really don't know.

Would the left have supported the war if it meant liberating gays in Iraq?

Just asking.

Is it worse to torture and kill gays than women? We let people come here and speak who are oppressing and murdering women in their own countries. We call some of these leaders our allies, in fact.

[swimboy]

159. So you somehow managed to miss the fact that the OP

1) is against a war
2) is in favor of allowing him to speak

You are not "just asking". You are twisting his statement.

It would be just as easy to twist your words to say the public execution of gays does not trouble you. I will not willfully misunderstand your statement in that way.

Please take the OP's clear and important statement at its face value.

[sandnsea]

177. You did twist my words

You said I wasn't asking, that I was twisting his statement. That's not true, I was asking. I do not know if Saddam killed gays. I do not know if gays are being killed in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan. I do know women are. The controlling interests will do anything to manufacture reasons to hate particular countries for the purpose of war for resources. We have to confront all human atrocities, wherever they are; while being careful to not allow ourselves to succumb to propaganda of hate.

[screembloodymurder]

19. Well, he wasn't lying.

Was he.

[cboy4]

46. What do you mean he wasn't lying? n/t

[LostinVA]

205. WTF?

[ThinkFoward]

273. well looking at the big picture...

...no he really wasn't. not if he keeps killing them he wouldn't be.

maybe the sick bastard thinks he as done just that? killed them all and now there is none left?

and I do hope that is exactly what you meant by your comment?

[BlooInBloo]

21. What lovefest? Who loves him? I totally missed that.

[Junkdrawer]

29. If you let your fear of WWIII blunt your hate, it's a lovefest....

Get with the program...

[BlooInBloo]

31. Aw shit - my bad. (hangs head)

[lligrd]

33. So I Was There And Didn't Even Know It

In that case, lovefests are highly overrated.

[Clintonista2]

32. This poster:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3545027&mesg_id=3545027

[BlooInBloo]

35. Thanks. Smallest. Lovefest. EVAH!!!

[Clintonista2]

36. Lovefest nonetheless

[BlooInBloo]

38. Loveluncheon is more like it, but ok.

[Clintonista2]

39. LOL ok, I'll accept that

:rofl:

[BlooInBloo]

40. :)

[cboy4]

48. That's not the only thread. Save your sarcasm to buy

presents for all of the babies that will be born in nine months from the lovefest.

[BlooInBloo]

51. Loveluncheon. And it's the only one I've seen. Feel free to lay others on me...

... dunno how I missed em - my bad.

[cboy4]

57. Dude, the comments are not confined to one or two specific

threads.

They're scattered throughout more than a dozen.

I'd be here all night cutting and pasting all of them.

[LostinVA]

206. And, it hasn't only been today

[swimboy]

160. I'd put it down to laziness or some sort of mental filter

You seem frequently unable to find things here that don't fit your particular position on an issue and then demand that others go find them for you. I have even seen you mock the people that try to serve up the information you demanded.

If you don't trip over it, it does not exist. If others jump to your bidding, you scorn what they bring.

[cali]

74. nope.

Read the thread and there have been many similar comments today.

[baldguy]

148. Me too

He's a human being. He has a right to speak. Columbia has a right to invite him to do so. Their purpose being not to honor the bastard, but to allow him - in his own words - to to show himself in the words of President Bollinger, to be lacking "intellectual courage," is "astonishingly undereducated." and as a human being is "quite simply ridiculous."

No "love fest" at Columbia, no "love fest" here.

[MethuenProgressive]

28. Naught for nothing, but Ahmadinejad doesn't run Iran, or make laws.

The Supreme Leader, selected by the Assembly of Experts, does.
Iran's President has very little influenece or power inside Iran.
It is Islamic law that is responsible for the oppression and murder of gays (and adulterers)
in Iran.

[Zomby Woof]

42. He's a sick shit

If anyone here is defending him, they make the Chavez crowd seem sane and reasonable by comparison.

The enemy of Bush is not necessarily our friend. Not in this case.

[sir_captain]

62. Hey Zomby

nice to see you. It's amazing how many people are defending this asshole. Sadly it doesn't surprise me all that much, and it once again reminds why it's so easy for the right-wingers to paint liberals as being lunatics.

[mhatrw]

192. Yes, unless we ALL join the regularly scheduled Two Minutes Hate,

we are all lunatics! If only the "looney left" would just report for re-education!

[Warren DeMontague]

221. Right. We should save our righteous lefty litmus test hate for legitimate targets...

...like the guy at Circuit City who checked my reciept, maaaaaaaaan! Fuuuuuckin' Fascist!

:eyes:

[mhatrw]

258. Cute.

The guy who tries to check my receipt is just doing his job. It's the guy who tries to falsely imprison me when I decide that I'd rather not wait in another line just to be accused of a crime I didn't commit who is being fascist.

Meanwhile, nobody is going to war over Circuit City. But we've seen this exact personalized demonization before and it always seems to land us in another war. So why buy in to it? Why not have the courage to call it out for what it is?

[Warren DeMontague]

262. Aw, c'mon. Admit it. You laughed.

Anyway, if it's any consolation, the widespread criticism of Ahmadinejad's Holocaust Denial and gay-hating here at DU doesn't seem to be convincing a whole lot of people that we should go to war with Iran.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1903669

It would seem we CAN walk, and chew gum at the same time.

[mhatrw]

265. We can. It's the rest of the country I'm worried about.

My only point here is that the focus should be on how our corporate media are setting us up for yet another insane war rather than how supposedly unexpressibly horrible and deranged a largely powerless Iranian figurehead is.

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Wirthlin's job, Alsop explained, was "to identify the messages that really resonate emotionally with the American people." The theme that struck the deepest emotional chord, they discovered, was "the fact that Saddam Hussein was a madman who had committed atrocities even against his own people, and had tremendous power to do further damage, and he needed to be stopped."

Americans don't like to get involved in wars. However, the most effective way to break down American resistance to entering a armed conflict with another country is to make an emotional appeal to Americans based on the personification of the leader of the enemy target as a dangerous, deranged super-villain. This is now a proven, tried and true RW PR strategy. It's up to people on DU to see through this nonsense rather than promulgate it.

[pretzel4gore]

44. you really don't care about the history of it, so you?

Iran was a goddam democracy that elected a progressive leader in 1954 and WE overthrew him and replaced him with a drunken sot called the shah of iran-a man the brits mocked incessantly, sometime to his goofy face. The shah of wog...25 years of US friendship finally ended in the Iran revolution in '79 (which dovetailed neatly with the gopigs takeover of the US presidency- the Iranians kept the hostages until regan was elected, then released them see october surprise) During the reagan years, and right into the 90's, there were murders happening almost daily in Algeria and other North African countries which were battling Islamic extremism. Once, a bus full of people was stopped and murdered because they were listening to rock music. That included actual infants. But that news was only a 2 inch filler on page 3 of the newspapers ...it turned out the cia was financing the anti soviet muhajadeen in afghanistan at the time, so obviouly monies were freed up for Algeria thanks to USA. During the battle against the Soviets in Afghanistan, a BBC reporter interviewed a muhajadeen leader about what it was all about, and the Taliban guy said 'when the Soviets are gone and we are in control the women will be returned to being under strict laws, and Afghanistan will be run properly' etc. Do you get it? If there's religious extremism now in Iran, and in Afghanistan, then WE PUT IT THERE! God knows how many people have died already, and for ANYONE to point their goddam finger at the men we put into position according to some class/racist agenda, then that just aint right.
BTm, how do you know those videos and pictures/statements aren't made by the cia or kkk or cbs or mi6 or something? There was a story about 2 kids hanged in iran a couple years ago, but that wasn't because they were 'gay' - it was because they had reputedly murdered a little kid, or something.
and does being 100 percent onside with foxnews/cnn and the rest of the bushpig media regards mr ahmadinejad strike you as rather odd? has foxnews/cnn etc been right about anything, anything at all? why are they right about the Iranian leader? Why don't they look at bush?

[Atman]

50. Oh man...someone who knows his history

As an "old codger" of 48, I'm absolutely stunned at the ignorance of so many of my fellow DUers, whom I am hoping -- dear god, hoping -- are merely too young to know any better.

Thank you for an excellent, educational synopsis of why we are where we are now. Maybe the Cliff's Notes generation will get a clue.

.

[subsuelo]

52. Thank you for this informative post

The added perspective is quite helpful

[LostinVA]

209. And what perspective is that?

[fenriswolf]

54. thank you

hate having to defend myself alone

[cboy4]

55. How the fuck dare you tell a gay DUer (me) that the pictures

of those boys hanging are possibly photoshopped by the CIA or anyone else?

Huh?

Do you even know how offensive that is? Do you go around telling Jewish people that piles of skeletons in Polish graves are fake?

You have a lot of nerve.

[fenriswolf]

56. no just because your gay

does not mean that your sources are not subject to scrutiny, you do not get a free pass, you do not pass go, you do not collect sympothy posts.

[cboy4]

60. Oh okay, it's just so fucking hard to believe that they

hang kids in Iran, isn't it fenriswolf.

It's clear that you have not looked up the law and penalties for homosexual behavior in Iran, nor read the story about the hangings.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/21/iran12072.htm

[fenriswolf]

63. wasnt denying it

just saying that you are not above being questioned as we are all equal and just because of a label you carry does not change that, here we are all equal. and i deplore the killing of innocent children so don't label me with that crap.

[cboy4]

84. How do I know you really deplore the killing of innocent children?

Maybe it's mock outrage on your part encouraged by the CIA.

[WildEyedLiberal]

87. He doesn't - he admits in a later post he doesn't care if some country kills part of its population

I can't believe some of the things I read here. Oh wait, yes I can.

[Jim Sagle]

139. Your tone suggests you're A OK with it.

[Crabby Appleton]

88. or this

Warning - graphic pics at link

http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/iran/iran.htm

[cboy4]

127. Oh but those pics can't be real. They have to be photoshopped

:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

211. Ugh

I've read stuff like this is denier books.

[ThinkFoward]

274. and just because you are not gay...

...does not mean that killing homosexuals doesn't happen. think matthew shepard. so in reality you do not get a free pass for being a person who would prefer to sweep things like killing homosexuals under the carpet.

it is because of people like you that people like me do not enjoy the same rights as you, so thanks for nothing.

[Marrah_G]

59. breathe

Some people are not worth arguing with.

They live in a fantasy world where the only bad people are in the American government and all other bad things are just fake propaganda. The defense of this man on DU has made me incredibly sad. I can just imagine what you feel seeing that as a gay member of DU.

[cboy4]

65. Marrah_G, what you just wrote means so much to me.

Thank you so much for your understanding and compassion from one of my favorite DUers. :hug:

[Marrah_G]

73. ~hugs~

I have great hopes that in my lifetime I will see a world where people are free to live, love and believe as they wish. I see great strides in my own state and hopefully it will spread. That will only happen if we continue to speak out against bigotry, wherever we see it, no matter which way the political winds are blowing.

Dammit you brought tears to my eyes, hun.

[fenriswolf]

76. duplicate

[fenriswolf]

77. sorry buddy

i've seen alot of bad people in my life time. I just don't live in a fantasy world where I believe they can all be taken out or killed or removed from office, I learn to live with them, not be their friends but I learn to live withmyself with all this going on we live in a f****ed up world and you learn to live in it. We as americans have enough to worry about in our own country without feeling that we have to change the world. I live with the fact that every day we grow more and more into a third world country, bit by bit. I live with the fact that my son is going to be brought up into a shadow of the country that I grew up in. I live with the fact that global warming and constant conflict will probably decrease the average lifespand back to 40-50 years. I live with all this shit everyday because i cannot let it go. The fact that some "country" executes a certain part of their population means very little to me. What I do care about is that hostilities do not increase around the world. They are still increasing and thats what scares me. What scares me is that you are falling under the propaganda machines spell and getting upset. What scares me is that I dont know how much longer this fragile web we have weaved of ties and tarriffs and a false economy can last untill it crumbles down around our faces because we have been so concerned with what their doing. So brandish your pictures and decry what horrible people we are if we do not lock step behind you and march behind the latest headline. I have my eyes set on the real problems and its not some piddly ass country in the middle east, its here, all around, in your mirror.

[WildEyedLiberal]

81. "The fact that some "country" executes a certain part of their population means very little to me"

Clearly. Who cares about "those people" anyway?

[subsuelo]

92. clearly taken out of context

[WildEyedLiberal]

95. Thanks for your "concern"

[subsuelo]

96. just making observations

nothing more nothing less

[onenote]

161. want to explain what "context" makes that an acceptable position?

[fenriswolf]

98. yes when I'm worried about me and mine

you'll learn very quickly when this country tanks what a dog eat dog world means and how attrocities being commited a world away that the only thing that matters to you is here and now. I did not say that in the regards that murder is wrong, just the fact that it does not affect me that much, if i let those affect me the way they so violently affect you then what about the millions that are dying in africa? or genocide happening right now? or droughts that will bring famine to many? why do you not cry for the many that will be displaced when the sea levels rise? for that matter how many "goods" have you contributed to help katrina victems. do not try to paint me as someone who cares because I do care but I do not let it affect me or my thinking and I do not let it affect my judgment.

[WildEyedLiberal]

100. Rationing out compassion as if you have a finite store of it is typically a conservative trait

Most liberals I know can simultaneously care about human rights abuses in Iran, genocide in Africa, and the situation here in America.

[fenriswolf]

105. yeah but they are not hot button issues

my original point is you guys want to villianize this guy for attrocities that his country condones and you are letting it affect you to the point where you are making a case for a war which is way worse then attrocities that are being commited in iran. so blow what i say out of proportion and villanize me, my final point and statment before I hide all these threads is this
* the iranian president is not a madman, just a religious fundamentalist in a religious country(for you two i know that doesnt excuse what they do but it is what it is)
*we should not be warmongering for these reason
*we should not villanize anyone except for those who try to influence forign nations by force
*you do not know me, do not pretend to take my words and paint me as someone, just because this issue hits home does not give you special permission to wage your personal crusade and excpect everyone to fall in line.

*i'm done here

*contineau on with the slander and hate, im gonna find a happy thread with people who talk of love and peace, not more war and violence and hope that eventually we all can find a way to live in peace

[WildEyedLiberal]

106. NO ONE HERE is "for war"

For fuck's sake did you even read the OP?

No, you're just another one of those "oh if you don't like Ahmedinejad so you must think it's okay to bomb the shit out of Iran" black and white "thinkers."

[swimboy]

164. So we must not speak of human rights abuses

in "piddly ass countries"

Oh boy, you are gonna love it here in a progressive web community.

*you do not know me, do not pretend to take my words and paint me as someone, just because this issue hits home does not give you special permission to wage your personal crusade and excpect everyone to fall in line.

In other words, don't have concerns that differ from mine or I'll call you a selfish warmonger.

I'm sorry you have found any welcome here if that is the baggage you carry.

[LostinVA]

215. Whyt y fryypyr

[swimboy]

244. Hwy swyyt wyn!

Hws myrryd lyf? :hug:

[LostinVA]

246. Yt's trys gyyd

Fyynd y nyce hyysy, tyy.

[swimboy]

249. whyrr yrr nytflyx ynfylwpps yr syff.

:D

[LostinVA]

250. Y myy hyvy ty gyt yyy thy Byrt's ryfryshyr cyyrse, bycyysy Y dyn't yndyrstynd thy lyst byt

[swimboy]

251. syff

nyt yn dyngyr

[mhatrw]

194. Caring about it is laudable. Using emotional appeals about it to demonize

another country that neocons want to invade is getting played like a fiddle.

[mhatrw]

193. Come off it with the emotional outrage baiting.

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Wirthlin's job, Alsop explained, was "to identify the messages that really resonate emotionally with the American people." The theme that struck the deepest emotional chord, they discovered, was "the fact that Saddam Hussein was a madman who had committed atrocities even against his own people, and had tremendous power to do further damage, and he needed to be stopped."

Why are you doing Wirthlin's job for him?

[LostinVA]

213. Wow. Unreal.

[Megahurtz]

240. You said it for me. n/t

[qdemn7]

117. Right on!

Loon like these folks are why the Left is considered "loony".

"OMG, the USA is the source of ALL evil in the World since the beginning of recorded time."

I'm sure these people defending "Azz-hole-ajaini" and "President-for-Life" Chavez, would have been apologists for Stalin and Mao in a previous life.

[Skip Intro]

61. Look, I'm sorry.

I don't see what being gay has to do with being outraged at this, and I hadn't heard this before, and I'm skeptical.

I did not know that Iran was killing people for being gay.

I know that there were outrageous stories told about saddam before we invaded, not all of which were accurate.


There is an effort to demonize ahmadinejad and Iran. Not all of it is accurate. You know?


No offense intended.

[cboy4]

68. What does being gay have to do with it. OMG.

Here's a link-------> http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/11/21/iran12072.htm

If you're not satisfied with that story, keep googling the appropriate key words and you'll find a lot of articles and google pictures.

[WildEyedLiberal]

75. Because you "gays" like to make up crap to support your agenda

Kind of like how all those Zionists get free sympathy points for Israel because of the "Holocaust" - I mean, why should we take their word for it?

(SARCASM for the irony impaired)

You know, THESE POSTS in THIS THREAD are proof enough of your OP, cboy. Disgusting but totally unsurprising - there are elements on DU who will defend any barbarous madman who is "opposed" to Bush.

[mhatrw]

195. BARBAROUS MADMAN!

Come off it. What is it with Americans and our love of puerile personal demonization?

[WildEyedLiberal]

210. I'm sure you've never called Bush a name.

:eyes:

[mhatrw]

259. That's not my style. But what does that have to do with anything anyway?

Our corporate media isn't using a carefully calculated PR attack on Bush to break down our resistance to starting another war.

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Wirthlin's job, Alsop explained, was "to identify the messages that really resonate emotionally with the American people." The theme that struck the deepest emotional chord, they discovered, was "the fact that Saddam Hussein was a madman who had committed atrocities even against his own people, and had tremendous power to do further damage, and he needed to be stopped."

[WildEyedLiberal]

289. My point is that "barbarous madman" is pretty mild in terms of DU rhetoric

I can, by the way, think that Ahmedinejad is a barbarous madman without wanting to bomb Iran. I don't think regular Iranians should suffer because their leader is evil; after all, I don't want to suffer and our president is pretty evil too...

[cali]

78. Jeezus H. Christ

Yes it's commonly known. No the pictures weren't faked. Get a clue.

[Marrah_G]

80. Go to Human Right Watch

Do a little research. This isn't "America" saying this. It's from all over the world.

In May 87 people were rounded up at a house party an are still waiting to be charged on what the police say are drinking and homeosexual activity charges.

www.hrw.org

A man was stoned to death for having sex without benefit of marriage 11 years ago that produced a child, the woman is due to be stoned to death soon. Buried to her neck while her nieghbors hurl meduin sized rocks at her head until she dies.

The information is out there.

[LostinVA]

217. It's not the OP's fault you're not educated on Iranian human rights atrocities

Hey, lots of people are skeptical about those Holocaust photos. For shame.

[Skip Intro]

223. Well aren't you just a ray of sunshine.

Your replies usually filled with such insight, or did I just get lucky?

[Junkdrawer]

69. Yeah, next you'll tell me that the Iraqis didn't throw those babies from...

their Kuwaiti incubators...

The swine...

[cali]

82. Right. Because there was fake testimony

about that, the extensive reports and evidence of the persecution and execution of gays is also faked.

Just yikes. so much for critical thinking.

[Junkdrawer]

91. I guess I'm an idiot because my lesson from that incident...

was that, when the US is on a "vilify the enemy du jour" mission, take their reports of enemy atrocities with a grain of salt.

The correct answer is, of course, believe them again because the lies were only an isolated incident.

[cali]

99. I never believed that incident

because I applied critical thinking skills. I knew it was crap just as I knew that the mobile weapons story was crap. There was no independent verification for either story, just reports by parties who had an agenda. In the case of gays being executed in Iran, there's ample independent evidence.

[Junkdrawer]

104. For what it's worth...

http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Execution_of_two_gay_teens_in_Iran_spurs_controversy

[cali]

108. From Human Rights Watch

Iran: Two More Executions for Homosexual Conduct

NEW YORK - November 22 - Iran’s execution of two men last week for homosexual conduct highlights a pattern of persecution of gay men that stands in stark violation of the rights to life and privacy, Human Rights Watch said today.

On Sunday, November 13, the semi-official Tehran daily Kayhan reported that the Iranian government publicly hung two men, Mokhtar N. (24 years old) and Ali A. (25 years old), in the Shahid Bahonar Square of the northern town of Gorgan.

The government reportedly executed the two men for the crime of "lavat." Iran’s shari`a-based penal code defines lavat as penetrative and non-penetrative sexual acts between men. Iranian law punishes all penetrative sexual acts between adult men with the death penalty. Non-penetrative sexual acts between men are punished with lashes until the fourth offense, when they are punished with death. Sexual acts between women, which are defined differently, are punished with lashes until the fourth offense, when they are also punished with death.

“The execution of two men for consensual sexual activity is an outrage,” said Jessica Stern, researcher with the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Rights Program at Human Rights Watch. “The Iranian government’s persecution of gay men flouts international human rights standards.”

<snip>

http://www.commondreams.org/news2005/1122-03.htm

[spoony]

162. When did anyone absolve the US? And why should anyone have

to hold their tongue about Iran because the US was also wrong?

[LostinVA]

208. How non pro GLBT rights this post is

No matter how you try to wrap it up in a a monolithic paragraph.

How arrogant and non progressive, telling a gay person this.

[Megahurtz]

238. Here Here!

:applause: History speaks the truth!

[LittleClarkie]

58. He's a swine. But I still hope we don't go to war with him

Being a swine isn't enough. Indeed, sometimes we are allies with swine.

[IndianaJones]

66. thank you for posting this. Sadly, I am not shocked by the attitude. nt.

[WildEyedLiberal]

67. It's REALLY sad that you have to qualify your excellent OP

With a disclaimer that you don't support war with Iran and aren't opposed to Ahmedinejad's free speech.

In DUland you either a) think Ahmedinejad must have something going for him, I mean why else would Bush hate him?? or b) you think he's scum which means you probably think it's okay to bomb his country into the Stone Age.

Sad sad sad sad sad.

[cboy4]

72. I know WEL. It always seems we're running into each other

whenever I'm frustrated and sad. :cry:

I'm sorry. :(

[WildEyedLiberal]

79. Maybe that's because I can sense that you need a hug!

So here are some hugs for you:

:hug: :hug: :hug:

Feel better, friend. Oh, and LOG OFF DU for a while. This place frays the last thread of my sanity, and it's important to remember that it does NOT come close to representing the real world. Go outside, take a walk, forget about the tempest in a teapot bullshit on here. It'll do you good.

[cboy4]

89. I think you're right. Like just about always friend :)

:hug: :hug: :hug:

[spoony]

163. That struck me, too. n/t

[DS1]

71. When we do it, it's barbarism, when they do it, it's culture

and culture trumps all on DU

There's your answer

[WildEyedLiberal]

85. Stop being a Western imperialist

Ugly American

[DS1]

94. Big Mac, large fries

diet coke

[WildEyedLiberal]

97. deleted

because McDonald's is why they hate us

[DS1]

101. It's hard to pick up on sarcasm in GD since everything's always over the top

I'll edit :)

[WildEyedLiberal]

102. Haha, true enough

It's not like what I said is any less extreme than some of the actual serious posts in this very thread, unfortunately.

[swimboy]

165. Would you like that SuperSized?

just 29 cents!

[Pushed To The Left]

90. I agree with you 100%. Just because we don't support another needless war does not mean we like what

Ahmadinejad stands for. The middle east right wing sometimes makes our right wing look downright liberal.

[cboy4]

93. Pushed To The Left, I don't think there's much else to say...you

hit the nail on the head.

"Just because we don't support another needless war does not mean we like what Ahmadinejad stands for."

Excellent.

[subsuelo]

103. ditto

[pretzel4gore]

290. our rightwing has murdered millions...

they tried to keep the facts hidden from the people, but facts will out. Ignorance, whether its located in the minds of mid easterners, or mid westerners, is a tragedy (the ignori have children, who are first to suffer the results) no matter where it is dominant...had not 'christians' carved up so much of the world, including the middle east, using the bible as a weapon of control, maybe all the vile cruel stupid religious political stuff we read about and still see in many places, would never have happened? Again, trying to pivot the conclusion on the backward treatment of gays by the Iranians might win the argument but the men who cause backwardness, who FUNDED IT, who promote it, who NEED it. are still loose and a public menace right here/now. Those gay kids are dead, and damning a minor player in bush's grand scheme for the crime just wasting time....esp when you consider the pigmedia are using dead gays etc to promote men who'd like to see vast numbers of us, gays especially, dead asap. Let's keep our anger with each other in check, ok

[DemocratSinceBirth]

107. It Depends On Whose Ox Is Being Gored

Ahmadinejad is just another theocratic asshat...

Those pictures literally made me gasp...

[mmonk]

111. Somebody trivialized it?

Yeah, his response was repugnant and the laws there as well. I think people attribute more power to him than he has however. Their laws are theocratic currently and will be no matter who their leader is until the revolutionary Iran gives way to something more humane and modern.

[Sapphire Blue]

112. How many people stand up for 'the other'?

All too often, people don't stand up or speak out on behalf of 'the other'... it doesn't affect them, doesn't affect their lives, doesn't affect their rights... they don't stand up or speak out until they themselves are targeted. And when they are targeted, there may be no one left to stand up or speak out.

Of course, Pastor Niemoller said it better than I have.

[TZ]

113. Also let us not forget

that this man hosted a conference dedicated to debunking the MYTHS about the Holocaust that was also attended by DAVID DUKE.
How the frick can anyone here defend this holocaust denier.
For the record I don't want a war with Iran either, but this man is nobodies hero.

[mhatrw]

196. Once again, did he PERSONALLY host this conference in his home or something?

The guy questions the Holocaust like millions of others in the Middle East. I don't agree with any of them, but what is the American fascination with the puerile personal demonization of other countries' figureheads?

[Moochy]

247. not defending him at all but his base..

regarding this:
"but this man is nobodies hero."

I heard on the radio that he has some 25% of the Iranian population's support, similar levels as Bush. Now he may not be their hero. The thing is he's not a despot, but his govt. is oppressive and nasty on many levels.

[Bluerthanblue]

114. if anyone has condoned the murder of people in Iran because

they were gay, i've completely missed that post on here-

Please point me to it.

If you ask me, after this fucking war in Iraq, our hands are pretty soiled, and all the pretty words, and madison avenue spin in the world, doesn't change the fact that over a million people have died as a result of a war of god damned choice.

In 'my' name- and yours.



Our nations have much to answer for-

It isn't only 'them'-

[Junkdrawer]

115. LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia

Gay rights are not recognized in Saudi Arabia and homosexuality is a serious crime punishable by death. However, there is some evidence that there exists an underground gay community <1>. The treatment of homosexuals has prompted criticism from international human rights organizations, but the government defends its actions as being mandated by Islam and not by a secular institution.

Criminal code
In 1928, the Saudi judicial board advised Muslim judges to look for guidance in two books by the Hanbalite jurist Mar'I ibn Yusuf al-Karmi al Maqdisi (d.1033/1624). Liwat (sodomy) is to be "treated like fornication, and must be punished in the same way. If muhsan (married, or within a legal concubinage) and free, one must be stoned to death, while a free bachelor must be whipped 100 lashes and banished for a year." Sodomy is thus proven either by the perpetrator confessing four times or by the testimony of four trustworthy Muslim men. If there are less than four witnesses, or one of them is not upright, they are all to be chastised with 80 lashes for slander. <2>

All sexual activity outside of a traditional heterosexual marriage (adultery) is a crime, and some of these crimes carry death penalty. As none of the criminal code is written down, the precise punishment for being convicted of homosexuality or sodomy varies and can range from the somewhat benign punishnments (i.e. imprisonment, fines, whippings or, for a foreigner, expulsion) or more serious punishment such as being sent to a mental institution for some form of treatment, forced amputation or public execution. Foreigners should not expect their nationality to grant them immunity from the local law.

...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia

[Marrah_G]

116. They are just as disgusting

Their horrid treatment of women is surpassed only by the Taliban. The fact that they are allies is something we should be ashamed of.

[Junkdrawer]

118. Something tells me that Fox/CNN/MSNBC won't be pointing that out...

anytime real soon.

Look, here's what I've always said:

Radical Islamic government is bad. Real bad. In fact, I blame Likud and Iran as Enemies #1 & #2 to the Oslo Peace process. Both only hold power as long as the blood feud continues.

The ONLY sane way to remove these folks from power is by constructive engagement. It was working in the 90s, but something happened in 2003 that wiped out decades of progress. Wonder what that was... :think:

[cboy4]

119. Believe me Junkdrawer. I don't need a lesson in the persecution

of homosexuals in the Arab world.

And it goes without saying that I'm opposed to the barbaric customs and punishment, wherever it takes place.

But what happens in Saudi Arabia has zero to do with Ahmadinejad in this particular thread.

[Junkdrawer]

120. Are you condemning Ahmadinejad for the atrocities of Islamic culture?

:shrug:

[cboy4]

125. Yes. I condemn anyone who kills another human being

because of their sexual orientation...especially children.

I don't give a damn what the religion calls for.

And it infuriates me even more when he lies about it, even though it's common knowledge gay children swing from their necks in Iran.

But this thread is not so much about him, as much as it is some of the DUers who participated in a love fest with a leader who smiled when asked about human rights violations in his country.

And my disgust doesn't just stop at gay issues. I'm disgusted with the way women are treated as well.

[Junkdrawer]

129. You do know that Ahmadinejad could die tomorrow and gays...

would still be hung in Iran. And Saudi Arabia. And any other strictly Islamic country.

As I said above, I don't like Islamic governments. But war and oppression is the fuel that these governments thrive on.

No Shah...No Savak...No Islamic Revolution.

[cboy4]

130. Yes, I do know that things would be the same, but we'd be

rid of a certain smirking liar whom various DUers participated in a lovefest after his speech today in NY.

Right Junkdrawer?

[Junkdrawer]

131. Leave me out of the lovefest AND the 2 minute hate....now excuse me...

I'm going to bed...

[cboy4]

134. Don't me bad mad at my Junkdrawer for giving up and going

to bed at what, 8:24 Pacific...be mad at yourself for not presenting a more effective argument.

And you can leave the lovefest, but we have surveillance tape of your involvement. LOL

[Junkdrawer]

145. "Don't me bad mad at my Junkdrawer" LOL...I give you a free shot at 11:24 Eastern...

and that's the best you got...

:rofl:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

234. Fuck them too

They should have been the first to be invaded if we were REALLY serious about weeding out the 9/11 terrorists and squashing Middle-East extremism. It still doesn't excuse this bozo.

It's another failing of the binary thinking around here that people who criticize Iran are somehow ignoring the actions of the Saudis........

[Raven]

121. Our enemy's enemy is not necessarily our friend. n/t

[Spazito]

122. Hmmm, if Ahmadinejad was the only one speaking out against

gays, if his country was the only one acting against gays, etc, etc, etc, I would agree most definitely with you. What I find equally appalling are those who are suddenly quick to jump on the lack of rights of gays in Iran while being absolutely silent on the same issue when it arises in the US including some on DU. (I am NOT referring to you in this but to others who seem to be 'selective' in their condemnation.

Iran is certainly not any example any country should use as a model but neither is Saudi Arabia, China, etc, etc, etc., imo.

The only, imo, reason Iran is the 'issue of the day' is because the bush admin wants it that way, sadly, and Ahmadinejad doesn't even have the power to change the policies of Iran even if he wanted to, he is little more than a figurehead mouthpiece.

[yardwork]

124. I (mercifully) missed the love-fest threads, but I certainly got jumped for defending Bollinger.

Apparently the "freedom of speech" that some here hold so dear doesn't extend to the president of Columbia University.

Apparently we were supposed to listen politely to everything our visitor had to say, and commenting on the appalling human rights violations committed under his direction in his country was "rude."

And yes, a bunch of right-wing fundamentalist Christians (please stop calling them evangelicals that's a completely separate group!) would like to treat gay people and a whole lot more exactly the way they're treated in Iran.

Thank you for this thread.

[WillyT]

128. Does Anybody Know How Many Countries Practice Sharia Law ???

Illegal sexual relations
adultery, fornication, and homosexuality

Main article: Zina (sex)

Adultery is a crime and, except in the case of rape, both the man and the woman are equally guilty. Thus it is said in Surah An-Noor “The woman and the man guilty of adultery, inflict on each of them one hundred lashes. Let not compassion move you in their case because it has been prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the life Hereafter (i.e. on the fact that since these are God's Commandments, their results are bound to appear forth) and let a party of the believers witness their punishment (so as to make sure that the punishment has been given according to Law).”

There are many references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and "masculine women." “Against those of your women who commit adultery, call witnesses four in number from among yourselves; and if these bear witness, then keep the women in houses until death release them, or God shall make for them a way. And if two (men) of you commit it, then hurt them both; but if they turn again and amend, leave them alone, verily, God is easily turned, compassionate.” Unmarried sex is permitted with slaves and captives of war, only if the captive women consents to marriage if the Muslim man wishes to marry her.

Some translations of the Qur'an call for the long-term or permanent house arrest of women guilty of adultery -- they are to be confined to "houses of death." An accurate translation is that their husband (or their parent or guardian) is to keep them -- not abandon them. Also, if they repent of their sin, God will accept their repentance. A woman can only be found guilty if four witnesses testify against her. Verse 21 seems to call for physical punishment for men who engage in same-sex activity, followed by their release if they abandon the practice. Qur'an 24:2 calls for a man or woman guilty of adultery or fornication to be flogged 100 times.

Homosexuality, moreover, is considered a grave sin. In Hadith, Muhammad clarifies the gravity of this by saying: "Allah curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lut," repeating it three times; saying in another Hadith: "If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers." Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand, and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand.....As for lesbians, Muhammad said about them: "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both adulteresses." The homosexual receives the same punishment as an adulterer. This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times.

International controversy came about when two gay teenagers, Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni, were publicly executed (following lashings in prison) in Iran, 19 July 2005, for homosexual relations. The youths were hanged in Edalat Square in the city of Mashhad, in north east Iran. The youths were believed to have been 16 years old at the time they had relations. Under the Iranian penal code, girls as young as nine and boys as young as 15 can be hanged. Three other boys have gone into hiding due to the incident<49>. Gay men have been publicly executed in Saudi Arabia, where beheading is the primary method, and in Taliban Afghanistan, where men were crushed with large boulders. It's debated how many gay men have been executed in Saudi Arabia, with some estimates placing the number of executions in the thousands in the last 15 years, while other estimates are much smaller. Critics have noted that, in countries where it is punishable by death to be homosexual, men are accused of homosexuality for political reasons. This accusation has been made regarding Nigeria. It has also been suggested that there is dissonance between the capital illegality of homosexuality in many Muslim nations and the frequency of homosexual sex and desire for it, and that arrests and executions are done primarily for political reasons. The Iranian teens argued that they didn't deserve to die because, being culturally denied interactions with women, homosexual sex was common among the boys they know and they didn't know it was illegal.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Illegal_sexual_relations

:shrug:

[Marrah_G]

133. from Wiki

"Most countries of the Middle East and North Africa maintain a dual system of secular courts and religious courts, in which the religious courts mainly regulate marriage and inheritance. Saudi Arabia and Iran maintain religious courts for all aspects of jurisprudence, and religious police assert social compliance. Laws derived from sharia are also applied in Afghanistan, Libya and Sudan. Some states in northern Nigeria have reintroduced Sharia courts.<9> In practice the new Sharia courts in Nigeria have most often meant the re-introduction of harsh punishments without respecting the much tougher rules of evidence and testimony. The punishments include amputation of one/both hands for theft, stoning for adultery and apostasy."

[Semper_FiFi]

135. K&R Great post!

The man is a disgusting pig and deserves to be dragged into prison for human rights violations. I hope he burns in hell.

[Phrogman]

136. So I guess we'll be seeing a rush of homosexuals at the recruiters offices than?

first in line to go and invade Iran, right?

So, the propagandist have them on board already?

[cboy4]

138. Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. n/t

[Marrah_G]

146. That is ridiculous on so many different levels

[swimboy]

166. What an idiotic post

If you speak up for human rights you are a kool-aid sucking warmonger? Where do you get off? But just for some perspective, we gays aren't even allowed to donate blood.

[NMMNG]

169. WTF?

:wtf:

[sniffa]

171. that is profoundLy stupid

so, i can expect you to buy me a ham sandwich for Lunch today, right?

[ThinkFoward]

275. oh that is funny....

...considering we have don't ask don't tell isn't it?

why serve for a country when the country doesn't want or respect you?

oh and just for the record, i do not support a war with iran, and I refuse to support the words of a homophobic idiot either.

why don't you just ask gay people whether they support a war rather than assuming you already know?

we might have our beef with the iranian leader, and we are intelligent enough to know that any reason bush would use to make war with iran is bullshit. we know there are better solutions out there to fix the situation for gay people liivng in countries where they are killed for being who they are, rather than just blowing them and everyone else to hell.

[Orangeone]

140. Attacking Iran

Won't help gays or women. Look what happened to Afghanistan, it was supposed to help women...!

[cboy4]

141. Why are you telling me that attacking Iran won't

"help gays and women," when at the very bottom of my OP (in bold print I emphasize) :

FOR THE RECORD....I AM ABSOLUTELY OPPOSED TO WAR WITH IRAN

[Marrah_G]

147. Who says we want to attack Iran?

It is possible to dislike a leader and be disgusted by everything he stands for and still not want to bomb the hell out of the country. But then, you knew that.

[Skittles]

142. it is disgusting beyond belief

the man is one sick bastard

[abq e streeter]

149. Glad to see this

and glad to see a lot of agreement with you. It has been disturbing to me as well to see all the excuses made for dictators, would be dictators, purveyors of atrocities etc. as long as they defy Bush. Sometimes I even wonder if DU is the right place for me, and whether enough of the American left is so willfully out of touch that I live in a political no-man's land. Everything bad in the world isn't the fault of the U.S. With all the bad stuff we HAVE done, there's no need to exaggerate. There are vile, murderous bastards in positions of power all over the world that would be there whether we existed or not.

[cboy4]

157. Well I'm glad you posted this. It's too bad some people around

here allow their so-called progressive thinking to get out of hand.

[Dorian Gray]

150. I am surprised

that it took his comments at Columbia about denying the existance of a gay population in Iran to rise the ire of many people. His government has been guilty of summary executions for many groups of people, he's consistantly denied/"questioned" the Holocaust, and has not expressed an open or progressive world view. The only thing he has offered for anybody to possibly like on this web site was a fledgling friendship with Hugo Chavez. Oh... and a VAST disdain for our current president.

Not enough for me to ever want to extend my hand in friendship to this man. I'm happy that his comments opened some eyes and made them realize that he is not our friend. I in no way want to go to war with Iran, but I do NOT want to work closely with Ahmadinejad or Iran until the Ayatollahs are no longer in the leadership position.

[Marrah_G]

153. I loved your post

It summed up my feelings also.

[Dorian Gray]

156. Thanks, Marrah!

It is an interesting turn of events. And it will be fascinating to see what he says at the U.N. (Is that today?)

[Marrah_G]

158. It will be interesting

I'd love to see the UN leaders get a spine and tell them both to sit down, shut up and listen.

[The Stranger]

167. Wake up.

What many (if not most) DUers understand is that the whole Ahemdinijad visit is taking place in a certain context. If you are intentionally ignoring the screams for more blood by the Neoconservatives -- especially as they reach a crescendo in the MSM -- then your post is not just naive, it is disingenous. Such an outlook is actually dangerous.

We have seen this movie play before, and it has already destroyed the nation. We just lived through the lying, torturing, Neocon coup and its Iraqi war disaster. So what is at stake here is not the right to point out and criticize human rights violations of world leaders. We do that all the time. What is at stake is trying to prevent the additional mass murder of hundreds of thousands more civilians and thousands more soldiers.

This shouldn't be so fucking hard to understand.

[cboy4]

170. What an excellent job you've done of providing

a good example of what's called "apples and oranges."

Have you heard of that term before?

Oh, and try not so hard next time of puting words in my mouth...you know, the part about how I'm "intentionally ignoring the screams for more blood by the Neoconservatives."

All of your aggressive large bold text doesn't mean you're making a valid point.

I can call Ahemdinijad a monster, and still be opposed to attacking Iran.

You stop being naive.


on edit...typo

[MedleyMisty]

172. Yes, but do you constantly call him a monster?

One day I'll convince my husband to let me donate so I can search, but until then - have you started a lot of threads in the past about the treatment of homosexuals under Islamic law? Like is this a recurring theme? If so, then great. I'm not sure what Americans can really do to change it or help except help people escape and come here where they at least won't be hanged by the state, but drawing attention to human rights abuses is always a good thing. We all need to witness it and know it and recognize it in others and in ourselves so we can rise above it.

But you've got to admit that if you never posted about it or thought about it much before now, the whole Two Minute Hate thing just might be coming into play. People were quite all right with Hussein gassing his own people until we decided to attack Iraq. And I didn't hear very much concern for the women of Aghanistan until we decided to attack there.

Plus, it's not so much that you can't say that you don't like him. It's more that you're accusing everyone else of liking him. Yeah, so there's the one person in this thread that you were arguing with. That would be the purpose of the ignore function, and one person does not all of DU make.

Also, not having a problem with Ahmadinejad speaking his piece and laying a wreath does not mean that you love him. Just like not liking him does not mean wanting to invade Iran. However, it's pretty obvious that there is a Two Minute Hate going on and that he is being demonized and that the propaganda is being whipped up. If you hated him years ago and you'll still hate him years from now when he's either been forgotten like bin Laden or, I don't know, killed like Hussein, then fine. Good. But if it's a new hate that just so happens to be well-timed with the media hate frenzy, maybe you are a little susceptible to the propaganda. It's okay. Most people are. That's why it works.

Gah - this is the same pattern that happened with the Paris Hilton thing and the Don Imus thing and the Snickers commerical thing and pretty much every big GD flamefest. "Just because I believe A doesn't mean I believe B, all you people who believe C and therefore believe D!" "OMG, can you even believe those people who believe C and therefore believe that people who believe A believe B?? They are so stupid, snicker snicker sarcasm." "Why can't anyone take a joke these days instead of getting offended all the time?" "I am ranting against people who believe C because I believe that they believe that B has to follow A." "K & R, I can't believe some people on DU."

Very very few people on DU love Ahmadinejad or post really positive things about him. There's no reason why you can't either just put them on ignore or scroll by their posts. The majority of DU does not agree with Iran's domestic policies. Most of us are on your side.

[cboy4]

174. Well first of all, yes I have posted about the treatment of

homosexuals under "Islamic Law" in the past. Why wouldn't I?

I'm not fan of the way gay people AND women are treated in the Arab world.

Secondly, I don't know what your point is about "speaking his piece and laying a wreath does not mean that you love him." If you thoroughly read my OP (which I'm not convinced that you did), you'd notice at the bottom that I said I supported him being allowed to speak at Columbia.

Thirdly, you know that you're flat out wrong when you say, "you're accusing everyone else of liking him." I said I had a problem with some, and even put asterisks before and after the word to clarify and emphasize that fact.

Lastly, this is a hide thread board. This is a discussion board. And when I see *****some***** DUers directly or indirectly apologize for someone who denies the practice of executing gay children in his country, I'm going to speak up yesterday, today and in the future.

Absolutely not will I "ignore or scroll by their posts."

[swimboy]

179. Where did this "Two Minute Hate" meme arise?

And how does one formulate assumptions about who is doing it?

Now speaking out on international human rights abuses is easily reduced to a simple case of "Two Minute Hate". Does it come in a box like cornbread mix?

You accuse the OP of some action because you don't have the resources to discover that he is not doing it.

[mhatrw]

197. Turn on the fucking TV.

The Two Minute Hate wurlitzer is in high crescendo.

[Midlodemocrat]

173. That picture still breaks my heart.

The man is a fucking monster. And FOR THE RECORD, I DO NOT SUPPORT GOING TO WAR WITH THE INNOCENT PEOPLE OF IRAN BECAUSE THEIR LEADER IS AN ASSHOLE.

[cboy4]

175. I know you don't Midlo

:)

[2rth2pwr]

176. I am not defending him or anything but

he hates B*sh. And anyway who are we to criticize other countries/leaders until we clean up our mess?

[swimboy]

178. Yeah, let's all play fucking nice.

We won't point out your human rights abuses if you don't point out ours. And soon all the worlds problems will be solved, just by people NOT SPEAKING UP.

:sarcasm:

[cboy4]

184. Really? You won't blame the Sudanese President for allowing

the atrocities in Darfur, because we haven't cleaned up our mess?

Oh well. Who cares that thousands are dying at the hands of the Janjaweed. At least they hate Bush, right? :eyes:

[EFerrari]

180. I didn't respond to this yesterday because there was too much cr@P

being tossed at the public in the corporate media and because I didn't / don't know enough to weigh in.

If I upset you, I'm sorry. That's the last thing in the world I'd want to do.

[cboy4]

181. No worries at all my friend. You are one of the most decent,

compassionate people here at DU, which is why I'm so fond of you.

But it was very kind of you to write. :)

[EFerrari]

182. The thing is, I'm responsible for keeping up with reality.

How is it possible that there is this murderous policy and I didn't know it? Or, that I discounted it as just "what happens in those places"? I don't believe this one man has any control over it but he is the spokesman for that policy.

I feel a great deal of shame over this right now. It is hard to drill through the bs to what's real. Practically a fulltime job. And BushCo is playing that to the hilt.

peace.

EF

[sniffa]

183. i have seen any of that

if you mean, saying we need to have a frank discussion about iran and not bomb them, then yes, it's a huge Lovefest.














:puke:

[mhatrw]

186. So HE personally hangs gays?

My God, what is it with Americans and their penchant for personalizing villains?

[cboy4]

214. No he absolutely does not hang gays because didn't you

hear his revelation...there are no gays in Iran!!!

And all of those bones buried in mass graves in Poland? -- why those aren't the remains of Jews because haven't you heard? There was no Holocaust!!!

Isn't this the best news ever?!?

Listen, I don't give a rat's ass whether he personally hangs innocent gay children by their necks until they snap from their backbone.

And I don't give a rat's ass whether George Bush pulled the switch to electrocute retarded people when he was Governor of Texas.

I'm going to "personalize the villians."

So if you participated in the disgusting Iranian leader love fest that I'm talking about, then just say it:

"Cboy, I participated in the disgusting love fest."

[mhatrw]

255. Cboy, you are participating in a neocon choreographed Two Minutes Hate. n/t

[LostinVA]

222. Hitler never, ever directly killed anyone

Guess he gets to slide on those 12 million killed in the Holocaust, eh? Good to know.

:eyes:

[mhatrw]

260. Cute. Hitler ran Germany with an iron fist. Does Ahmadinejad run Iran?

No, he doesn't.

So :wtf: are you talking about?

[LostinVA]

198. Excellent OP, Damien

Some posts have been very disturbing.

[cboy4]

201. Thank you Rosemary. I know.

OXOXOX

[LostinVA]

224. *kiss*

[Warren DeMontague]

219. Seconded. Of course if you point out what a shitheel this man is, you're shilling for war.

:sarcasm:

Why, you can tell how effective this campaign has been, since there are many of us here on DU who know that he's a gay-murdering, holocaust denying shitheel, refuse to shut up about it, and hence support for war with Iran here at DU is as we speak shooting through the proverbial roof:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1903669

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

218. Some of these responses belong on Stormfront and their ilk, not DU

Even The Other Place doesn't believe gays should be murdered by the State.

Shameful.

[Warren DeMontague]

220. But-but-but--- it's their culture!

You just don't understand, cultural imperialist.

:sarcasm:

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

225. BUT...BUT....IRAN LOVES TEH JEWS!!!!!

HE SAID THEY DID.....HE SAID THEY DID!!!!!

[NashVegas]

226. I Think You Must Be Incredibly Confused

If you are against a war w/Iran, why do you feel it's necessary to disseminate anti-Iran propaganda? Do you think that it somehow proves you are a fair and balanced American?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

229. Hmm......that sounds similar to an argument I've heard before

"You are either with us, or you're against us." - George W. Bush

[NashVegas]

230. No, I Just Think It's Really Weird

that the OP, which claims to be against the idea of going to war in Iran, is carrying the Bush junta's water, here, of all places.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

232. One isn't allowed to comment on the narrow mindedness of one dictator....

....lest he be seen as carrying water for another?

Can't we at least attempt to be a little more complex than the average neo-Con/freeper in this country, by having layers to our philosophies and belief structure? Or are we just going to submit to the binary mindset people like the Administration would want us to have that you are either on one side or another, black or white?

If you are a true progressive, speaking out on one form of oppression while remaining silent on another because you don't think it serves "the greater good" is not progressive at all, it's just as divisive and political as the propaganda you decry.

The OP has a problem with world leaders who think homosexuals deserve death. So do I. Apparently you do not, as your "progressiveness" ends at our borders.

I'm always amused how when Amnesty International or some other human rights group submits a report about abuses at Guantanamo committed by the U.S., people here waste no time to praise their efforts, and rightfully so. When the same group criticizes the actions and abuses of Iran, it's dismissed without discussion as "propaganda".

It's troubling to see this sort intellectual laziness here.

[mhatrw]

261. It's not a comment on narrow mindedness. It's a straight up attempt at

demonization, only from a liberal slant. Ahmadinejad is not a dictator in any recognized sense of the word. He is nothing more than a elected spokesperson. Why do you say he's a dictator who thinks homosexuals deserve death if not to demonize him?

What's really troubling is when people who should know better can't history clearly repeating itself.

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Wirthlin's job, Alsop explained, was "to identify the messages that really resonate emotionally with the American people." The theme that struck the deepest emotional chord, they discovered, was "the fact that Saddam Hussein was a madman who had committed atrocities even against his own people, and had tremendous power to do further damage, and he needed to be stopped."

Americans don't like to get involved in wars. However, the most effective way to break down American resistance to entering an armed conflict with another country is to make an emotional appeal based on the personification of the leader of the enemy target as a dangerous, deranged super-villain. This is now a proven, tried and true RW PR strategy. It's up to people on DU to see through this nonsense rather than promulgate it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

279. Funny, I implied Bush was a dictator as well, and you had no comment on that

.....I guess I promulgated the hyperbole all around, but it only seemed to strike a bad chord with the devil you feel more sympathy for.

DU is rife everyday with people making very emotional points about a lot of issues and people. Do you run into every thread to tell them to chill out, or only call out the ones that fit your political agenda?

I don't believe we need to go to war in Iran over it. Just pardon me if I don't feel the need to kiss the guy's ass as some sort of martyr.

[cboy4]

233. Right, because by posting this thread about how much it

bothers me that Iran hangs gay children from their necks until their necks snap loose from their backbones and these innocent kids die, I've some how moved the United States of America one step closer to attacking Iran.

I had no idea I had that much power.

And incidentally, what I wrote is completely fair and balanced factually.

[NashVegas]

236. I'll Stick With My Original Statement

I just think you're confused. A small handful of clueless defenders of his speech hardly makes a "love fest."

There was similar confusion in the run-up to the Afghan skirmishes. There were people who believed 9/11 was about the UNOCAL pipeline and didn't want to go in; meanwhile the propaganda run-up brought us news of RAWA. Many DUers were aware of that organization before 9/11, and were supportive. It was later a tool for media manipulation, by a White House that didn't give a shit about womens' human rights. Haven't heard too much about them lately, have you?

They're doing it again, now, with Iran. News stories about some woman getting stoned for the crime of being raped. And once it's over, we won't hear a peep about it. It will have served its purpose. You think it'll be any different with gays, if it even rates a mention?

[cboy4]

243. You're making more out of this thread than it is.

And I'm not confused about anything.

It was more than "a small handful" of people, but less than "a lot"

That's why I carefully used the word "some" and placed asterisks like this: *some* to emphasize that.

We'll just have to disagree on our definitions of "love fest."

What I saw was a love fest, and I'm not alone. I hardly think my viewpoint is going to spark an invasion.

[mhatrw]

263. No, it won't. But what it will do is blunt any and all mainstream resistance to

an invasion. If you can cow the people on DU to stop defending the "deranged dictator" of Iraq against the calculated demonization our corporate media is burying him under, what hope do we have at building any sort of mainstream consensus in opposition another war based on moral grounds when the bullets start flying at Cheney's behest? Who will dare take to the streets in favor of saving the political position of an insane, barbarous madman against our noble US troops?

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

Wirthlin's job, Alsop explained, was "to identify the messages that really resonate emotionally with the American people." The theme that struck the deepest emotional chord, they discovered, was "the fact that Saddam Hussein was a madman who had committed atrocities even against his own people, and had tremendous power to do further damage, and he needed to be stopped."

Americans don't like to get involved in wars. However, the most effective way to break down American resistance to entering a armed conflict with another country is to make an emotional appeal to Americans based on the personification of the leader of the enemy target as a dangerous, deranged super-villain. This is now a proven, tried and true RW PR strategy. It's up to people on DU to see through this nonsense rather than promulgate it.

[killbotfactory]

228. They also execute adulterers

by stoning them, no less.

In Iraq, gay people are targeted for murder.

The situation is similar in nearly the entire middle east. If you want to help it, promote peace to allow the reformers room to grow, and stop threatening war against any nation that gets in the way of US imperialism.

[Warren DeMontague]

231. Sometimes I think the best thing we could have done with the trillions we've spent in Iraq would be

to have instead carpet bombed the Middle East with High Def TV's, indica weed, and Jenna Jameson Pornos.

Oh, and maybe drinkable water, food, and medicine, too.

It certainly would have been cheaper. And I suspect it would have gone a lot farther in loosening the grip of the fundy nutjobs who run many of those countires. You don't "liberate" people at the barrel of a gun. But you can motivate them to liberate themselves.

[killbotfactory]

239. I've read that Iran's marijuana laws are pretty lax

And in the cities they already have fancy TV's and playstations. There is even rampant private partying involving anything from scantily clad women to all out gay orgies. They don't crack down on such activities because they pretend Islam has rid them of the influence of such western "depravities" and use it as propaganda against the west. If Bush hadn't invaded two of their neighbors, declared them to be evil, and started threatening them with annihilation, they might nominated a reformer instead of a hardliner like Ahmadinejad. Threatening them sure isn't helping.

Here in the US people were ready to scrap the constitution over terrorist attack. Imagine how we would react if another country 1000 times stronger than us started aiming missiles at us and making belligerent demands?

[Warren DeMontague]

252. I agree, it hasn't helped. Iran WAS moving towards moderation and reform.

Bush's uptight, fundy, religiouso-freak power grab here enabled another uptight, fundy, religiouso-freak power grab there, too. Funny how that works.

I agree. The best thing to have done would have to not overthrown Mossadegh in the first place, back in the 50s. Whoops.

[cboy4]

235. Why are telling me all of this? I said I oppose attacking Iran.

And I'm not only appalled by human rights violations in Iran -- I'm appalled by all of them throughout the Muslim world, not the least of which is the way women are treated.

[killbotfactory]

237. I'm saying it because the only reason Iran is being singled out

is because Bush is salivating for a chance to start a war with Iran.

Using human rights abuses as propaganda to start an unnecessary war is obscene. Just like it was when we did the same thing to Iraq.

It also confuses things, like we see on this forum. People who simply don't regurgitate the media-line against Iran are targeted for ridicule and scorn, and accused of being apologists for tyranny. The same bullshit was slung at people who opposed the Iraq war, and before that Afghanistan.

[cboy4]

241. Sorry. If we attack Iran (which I think we will), it's not going

to be because of what I'm saying or what the Iranian leader said yesterday.

Bush has been planning to go to war with Iran since he named that country as part of the axis of evil.

And I find it offensive that you're seemingly trying to place the blame on people like myself for helping to spark war, instead of placing the blame where it belongs.

I won't sit at the back at the bus and remain silent about human rights. Not now, not ever.

[killbotfactory]

242. You are labelling people as apologists for the Iranian regime

because they are acting negatively towards a propaganda blitz the the US news.

What you call a love-fest is simply people trying to cut through the bullshit being fed to them by the media.

[swimboy]

245. Bush and his generals

Bush: Tell them to prepare the attack.
Generals: But we agreed we weren't going to do that.
Bush: Yeah. That was before I knew Damien was upset.
Generals: Well then. Our backs are to the wall. He's so powerful.

Western World: Oh, if only Damien could have kept quiet about the human rights violations! Now we are at war! His opinion was the only one that mattered and he wouldn't listen to the other wonderful people at DU who counseled that if he spoke up for human rights it would drive Bush into war!

[cboy4]

248. ......

:spray:


And notice swimboy how the gays are once again being blamed for something?

First we cost the Democrats the election in 2006 because of the NJ marriage ruling. (Oh wait, that didn't happen).

And now the gays are going to start a war in Iran because I'm/we're using the hanging of gay children as "propaganda" to incite military action. (Oh wait, that's not going to happen either).

Just when I think I've heard it all, I take another breath. :banghead:

BTW, good to see you my friend :)

[mhatrw]

264. Why then single out Ahmadinejad for your righteous disdain?

Now, during the middle of an ongoing neoncon scripted and corporate media Two Minutes Hate, no less?

[cboy4]

266. You can't be serious. The reason I'm singling him out for this

this thread is not only has he been in New York -- he lied about whether there are gay people in Iran, a place where he knows damn well gay children are forced to hang from their broken necks.

He deserves every bit of my "righteous disdain," and then some.

[mhatrw]

267. Of course he does! Hate away!

Doubleplus good!

[sniffa]

288. i'd say i'm shocked by some DUers

but then again, they're DUers, so i'm not shocked.

[piesRsquare]

254. If Ahmadinedjad didn't hate Israel,

I doubt there'd be the love-fest, disputes about "mistranslation", and so on that we're seeing here.

It's truly disgusting.

[dailykoff]

256. AP: "two teenagers sentenced to death for raping and killing two young boys."

"On Sunday Iranian media reported that a 16 year old was among two teenagers sentenced to death for raping and killing two young boys earlier this year."

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=12445

Let's not get distracted by misleading pictures.

[ThinkFoward]

268. i don't understand...

...why anyone would believe that anyone who doesn't support ahmadinejad are supporting the illegal war. can someone explain it to me?

are we also meant to hide our feelings about the now dead ousted iraqi leader for the same reasons?

i just don't understand it. i have been someone who has stood again the illegal war from day one. i am someone who is dead set against war with iran. i also happen to be someone who refuses to support any world leader who offs his own people for his/her own enjoyment. it is cruel and inhumane.

[BootinUp]

269. Its very interesting to see who some of the posters

are too, that engage in these love fest activities. Hint, we are being invaded....

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

280. I'm waiting for the "GOTCHA!!!" any minute

Followed by the freep dance.

[LeftishBrit]

276. Agreed

He's an evil man and shouldn't be supported by anyone. Especially not by anyone liberal.

There are plenty of other evil leaders.

There should be NO war with Iran!

He had a right to speak at Columbia. I even think he should have been allowed to lay a wreath at the WTC; though I am uncomfortable about ANY political leader laying wreaths, and think that it would be more respectful to leave it to diplomats or other non-political representatives.

I don't think there is a major love-fest for Ahmadejinad, but there are a few people on DU who do seem to like him, and rather more who think that any criticism of him equals support for bombing Iran.

[cboy4]

287. LeftishBrit, you summed thins up very nicely. I don't

think I would have been particularly thrilled about the wreath at Ground Zero.

On the other hand, I would have gotten a lot of satisfaction seeing smoke pour out of the ears of angry Republics!!

[sniffa]

277. this is fLamebait

[cboy4]

286. Yea, it is interesting how seemingly anything related to

gay people is seemingly eventually always characterized as flamebait.

[dailykoff]

292. "“It was not a gay case,” said Paula Ettelbrick, executive director of the HRC

“It was not a gay case,” said Paula Ettelbrick, executive director of the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission, taking issue with the Human Rights Campaign’s statement that was quick to condemn the execution as anti-gay.

“We would welcome HRC’s involvement in demanding that our government speak out on human rights violations. It was just the wrong case,” she said.

http://washingtonblade.com/print.cfm?content_id=6165

Why do you keep misrepresenting these executions? :shrug:

p.s. There are evidently two HRC's, and the nearly identically-named organization pushing right-wing lies is probably a right-wing operation.

[ChenZhen]

291. Has Ahmadinejad ever hung a child? Is he the "leader" of Iran?

I think an anti-hate fest is a bit different than a love-fest, BTW. A lot of people are jumping on the bandwagon and hating him based on the MSM talking points about him. Hes a mouthpiece for a backwards nation...no more and no less.

[earth mom]

293. I haven't seen a love fest going on. Rather it's more of a hatefest.

* & Co & freeperville must be ecstatic about what's going on around DU right now.

Sorry, but I'm not buying into the propaganda.

I want PEACE.