For the first time in my adult life I wonder if I will vote.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

"Tsunami" is what they're saying. This is utterly and positively depressing. Our big chance - probably the biggest ever - and what are we going to do? Squander it. Hell, three years from now, I bet we'll still have soldiers dying in Iraq. Why oh why couldn't we have someone with liberal convictions so evident you could see them? Someone with an open heart. Someone we would all walk 10 miles (in a blizzard) to vote for?

Before you trash me, I'll probably end up voting - holding my nose. Sorry to be such a bummer - it's just became crystal clear that the fix is in and she's going to get it. Probably always was. Primaries are just a freakin charade.

GORE !!!!!!!!!!!!Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rateyes]

1. I'm feeling your pain, and agree with your plea for help.

:hi:

[Laura PourMeADrink]

25. Hi RE !

Thanks.

Must be in a funk. Between this, the congress being impotent to stop the war, I'm one step from becoming apolitical.

Maybe the plutocracy has grown too big, too strong. Maybe our vote will never count again.

[fenriswolf]

2. yeah its kind of dishearting man

your totally surounded by hillary, "everyone" says she's gonna win, everyone seems to see her as a godsend, heck why even vote, diebold (now SES) is gonna make sure the fix is in anyways so whats the point? and if your vote isn't changed electronically, rovian ploys will change or disinfranchise you. Whats the alternative? moving to canada?

[pnwmom]

3. Your hero, Gore, was defeated by people who thought there

was no difference between Gore and Bush -- the 97,000 Florida voters who bought Nader's line that Bush and Gore were Tweedledee and Tweedledum.

Anyone who thinks there is no difference between HRC and any of the Rethug field is just as misinformed. Please familiarize yourself with HRC's actual voting record compared to ANY of the Republican Senators, running or not. She's far more liberal -- consistently voting more than 90% of the time with progressives. The typical Rethug takes progressive positions 15% of the time.


www.progressivepunch.com

[THUNDER HANDS]

4. exactly

it's really amazing how just 7 years after Gore v. Bush, liberals (of which I am one) still trot out the old "there's no difference" card when it comes to the candidate they're not going for in the primary.

Grow up, people.

There's like, 2% differencec between all the Dem candidates on all of the issues.

But there's a 98% difference between any one democrat and any one republican.

[The Vinyl Ripper]

60. Two percent?

Kucinich:

Out of Iraq now.

Universal medical *care*.

End the drug war.

Show me another candidate with those positions and I might agree with you.

Otherwise you are just wafting universal obscurant out of your nether orifice.

[fenriswolf]

61. dont forget free trade

[The Vinyl Ripper]

62. Yep..

I was a little perturbed when I wrote that so my thinking skills decreased..

Anyhoo, thanks for the backup..

[BlooInBloo]

5. For the pwn.

[KoKo]

8. Where are the differences between Hillary and Bush, then?

:shrug: I'm asking this seriously. After I saw her trash MoveOn on CNN/Blitzer this Sunday where she cleverly denied her vote against Move On's Censure...saying that she really was voting for the "Boxer Amendment" in that she was against all "attack ads" ...I couldn't have any respect for her. Then, there's the relationship with Ruppert Murdoch where many of us suspect a "deal was made" and Bill and Poppy over Tsunami Relief...where another deal was made.

:shrug: Give me WHY you would vote for her...given what many of us have seen from her. Careful parsing where she never takes a stand...but creates the "aura" of the Frontrunner by bringing in the BIG BUCKS donors and never taking a stand that isn't "status quo" what Bush and his Poppy did.

Where is Hillary's VISION THING? :shrug:

[Mend]

28. Supreme Court and a return to the rule of law...

...as John Dean said, if we don't get a Democratic president this time, we will lose the USA forever. It is that serious. Please stop snarking about the stupid stuff...it is about our very democracy and you know it.

[pnwmom]

41. Amen. n/t

[truedelphi]

51. Are you aware of the absolute terribleness of some of the decisions

of the supposed liberals on the Supreme Court?

They were not in favor of the small homeowner holding on when "eminent domain" issues crop up and the local government decides that yet another strip mall should come along and get build in place of the house you own. Nope sayeth the Dems in the Supreme COurt - eminent domain trumps lower middle class homeowner ship.

They were absolutely brutal with respect to marijuana laws, especially marijuana laws regarding medical marijuana.I really think we need to define what liberal means.

[Rockholm]

102. Thank You!

[pnwmom]

33. She has voted against further funding of the Iraq war

without a timeline for withdrawal and she has pledged to continue to do so.

She supports universal health care while Bush is ready to veto continuation of the successful children's health program that we do have. She has been working on health issues and children's issues for most of her life.

She is pro-choice.

She is pro-environment.

She has consistently supported minimum wage increases.

She is moving away from her husband's positions on free trade.

Whatever she said to Blitzer, her vote AGAINST censuring MoveOn is what counts for me.

For more on her voting record, see www.progressivepunch.com

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. I know, I know - It's just that I'm thirsting for a real live hero ! n/t

[rodeodance]

106. recall that sone: "YOU CAN'T allways get what you want"

[Mme. Defarge]

156. That's easy ...

I think she is Bush with a brain.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

9. Sorry, I don't see the connection between "97,000 Florida voters"

and any real, valid election results.

[pnwmom]

35. If Nader had swung his support to Gore and only a fraction of his

97,000 followers voted for Gore instead of for Nader, Gore would have had a huge lead that even Bush with all his cheating wouldn't have overcome. As it is, he "won" by less than 600 votes.

[Hydra]

20. Gore didn't lose

for the Umpteenth time. He won by at least 87,000 votes and probably much more. Don't make it any easier for the RW spin machine to say that they have legitimate control of our country.

[pnwmom]

39. Bush wouldn't have stolen the election by less than 600 votes

if 97,000 Nader followers -- or even 1% of them -- had voted for Gore instead.

[Hydra]

43. Bush didn't steal it by that number

Votes were thrown out. That's where the 87,000 come from. Those are just the most clear-cut and indisputable ones. DO you think it would have bothered them to scratch 100,000 more?

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

159. if 97,000 Republicans, Independents or non-voters

if 97,000 Republicans, Independents or non-voters would have voted gore he would have had 97k votes more (which might have disappeared anyway) so what? If the dems are that far off the green position why should they vote for a candidate who doesn't come near their stance?

That's democracy you - vote for whom you want not for whom you "have to".

the "if-you-don't, then XY happens" -meme is an old population control trick. Principle over pragmatism or pragmatism over principle...

[stillcool]

45. I am shocked...

that so many still spout the 'Gore lost' meme. Why?

[Rockholm]

103. He may have won, but he is not in the White House.

Yes, he won the election. Sadly, the one with the keys to the "people's house" was handed the role by the Supremes and from a candidate and a party that felt it was better to do NOTHING for the sake of continuity.
Some lessons have to be taught over and over. Sadly, the Democrats continue to make nice. THE REPUBLICANS DO NOT PLAY NICE. If this county is to be saved, then we are going to have to hold our noses and step down to their level. Dirty, nasty and snarky wins. That's the game folks.

[Hydra]

110. Who's holding their nose?

This is not a game. These people are killing our nation and our world! Anyone who thinks we need to be polite with this cadre needs their head examined...and we need to take the gloves off. Too much is at stake to be "playing the game."

[truedelphi]

42. Look if we progressives could agree with you that HRC is progressive

We would certainly be agreeing. Truly she is the best corporate "liberal" that money could buy.

She has said she plans on a continued presence on Iraq.

She is not "afraid" of nuking Iran.

Her idea of Nation Health Care and any decent progressive's idea of health care are
so diametrically opposed I cannot even go there.

I suppose that she would deal with a situation like Katrina much more humanely and effectively than Bush, but that is about the only reason that I would vote for her.

But the notion that I must enter a voting booth and pull the lever (or whatever) for her, makes me wonder how much of my hair will be on the floor of said booth on myway out!

[Poppa]

54. HRC is not a progressive

She is on the Board of Directors of the DLC and supports their anti-union, pro-corporate positions. She is better than Bush, but of course thats not saying much.

[truedelphi]

57. Who wouldn't be better than Bush?

This country has lost the way - and only through the abolishment of the lobbyist system etc can we get the way back.

For some reason, I guess some people are so much better off than I am that to them the fact that the current shoe maker produces shoes with twelve huge holes in the soles means that the new shoemaker who porduces shoes with only eight big holes is a big difference.

This sorto of person makes enough money that they aren't walking on the ground anyway - whether they are Dems or Rethugs, someone else is carrying them. they aren't affected (yet) by outsourcing.

They work inside Corporate America at a high enough level that they are already enjoying deluxe health care.

Their children and/or grandchildren go to private schools.

The fact that food, utilities, gasoline and other staples are going up exponentially in a given twelve month period annoys them but only means that .05% less goes into their retirement fund.

Life is great and Hillary has voted for several bills in Congress that were all about the children and they think she is god's gift to the USA. She'll protect the right to an abortion. And so what about anything else.

Maybe if I was rich I'd feel that way too.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. Gore was defeated by the "moderates" who voted for Bush - not the Greens who voted for Nader.

Blame the real culprits.

[Apollo11]

88. BUT GORE WON !!!!

For the millionth time: the 2000 election was STOLEN.

Blame the real culprits: Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush, Jim Baker and the US Supreme Court.

[Zhade]

79. Uh, try the theft.

Funny how some of you still refuse to see the coup.

Easier to blame Nader, I guess. Takes less courage.

[Lorien]

128. Er, no. I worked the polls in Florida in 2000

in a black precinct, no less. The white cops were walking up to black voters and leering at them while saying "What ya gonna do when your boy loses, eh? Ya gonna cry when your boy loses"? They tried to close the polling place an hour early, and when that failed they told black voters that they had all come to the wrong place to vote-the right place was across town, and there was no way for them to take public transport there before closing. We called up local churches and had buses brought in to get the people to the "right" polling place, but the cops stopped our church buses and demanded to see their "taxi licenses". Unable to produce any, they were forced to unload. The cops also had several major streets in the poorest sections of town barricaded.

Yeah, I've repeated this story over and over to the MSM since then, and we have the documentation to prove what happened. The only person who ever listened to me was Greg Palast of the BBC.

No, it wasn't the Nader voters. It was a bloodless coup. If Hillary is favored by big business (and she is) then she'll be our nominee...unless someone else will carry even more water for the mega corporations.

[CrispyQ]

146. "No, it wasn't the Nader voters. It was a bloodless coup."

Thank you for that! I am sick of the whining about the Nader voters. I voted for Nader in 2000. You know who I voted for before that? Jimmy Carter in 1980. I was so damned POd about the whole Iranian hostage manipulation I dropped out of politics for two decades. It was the combo of Nader & the Green Party that woke me up & brought me back. Without that combination, I would have slept right through 12/12/00. It's possible I would still be asleep today.

BTW, this is the first I've read of your account of FL 2000. Sickening. And even more sickening is that the MSM won't cover it.

:banghead:

[Vidar]

144. Gore was defeated by election fraud. Nader had nothing to do with it.

[Uncle Joe]

161. I disagree, for one thing Al Gore won, but also on your premise.

It was the corporate media intent on trashing and slandering his integrity for the better part of two years prior to the selection of 2000, that made the race close enough for Bush to steal. The corporate media simply didn't care about reporting the truth. They made Al Gore out to be the liar because they knew Bush didn't stand a chance on vision, the issues, the record, qualifications for the job or experience. This is why Bush ran on "restoring honor and integrity to the White House", the corporate media knew after eight years of the Clinton Witch Hunt coupled with the Lewinsky Scandal, they could transfer the sins of the President on to the Vice-President quite easily. I believe they were motivated in large part because Al Gore championed the Internet while in Congress and as the Internet grew in power and influence they feared for their monopoly on information. Information = money, power and influence and as we have entered the Information Age, the corporate media decided they wanted to shape the Information Age to their liking, not the American People's desires.

I believe, had the corporate media not waged this one sided war, Al Gore would have won in a land slide, regardless of Nader. The no difference lie wasn't effective because of Nader, it was the corporate media that refused to spell out the differences and only magnified the negative caricature of the Al Gore they had created, the same corporate media that would go on to cheer lead us to a war based on lies regardless of the evidence to the contrary and brain wash up to 70+% of the American People in to believing Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11. As evil as he was, Saddam wasn't behind 9/11 but this is the kind of power, the corporate media can wield in shaping American Public opinion.

[Gregorian]

6. Kucinich.

Maybe I'm missing the point. But Kucinich is the best candidate you could hope for.

[truedelphi]

56. I probably will write in Kucinich - Because of this

We already know how a Hillary Clinton presidency will work.

Hillary's Presidency will work exactly as the Democratic Majority in Congress is working right now.

There will be no change in direction in terms of Iraq.

There will be no change in terms of outsourcing of jobs.

National Health Care will be established that will be so influenced and bought out by the insurance industry that Health Care will continue to be a system by which the working class will be bankrupted should they need it, and worse: their health and their lives will continue to be irrelevant to the overall Health Care game...

Abortion will probably remain legal.

And the Corporate Industry tax credits, green point exchange will be seen as the standard for the Environmental Movement: industry can destroy the air in this region as long as they buy hay for the elk in some nature preserve miles away. With much fanfare and kudos to all - because the word "environment"gets used a lot - never mind that the people living in the region where the air is polluted will still die early from respiratory illnesses.

[leftchick]

87. very well said

and a breath of fresh air given all of the total blind love I see lavished on a corporate, warmongering neocon/ dino! I am absolutely writing Dennis in!

[ima_sinnic]

89. spot-on assessment of life under HRC ...

I will either not vote or write in Kucinich or possibly Gore if she is the candidate. So "I" will be blamed if she doesn't win. Give me someone who doesn't kiss the ass and take the payola of Murdoch, the insurance industry and the rest of the corporate CEOs and who also will get us out of Iraq immediately and I will vote for that person.

[CrispyQ]

148. I find it interesting that so many say don't vote on a single issue.

Yet, when it comes to defending HRC, they tell us that we should do so because she will keep abortion legal.

:wtf:

Truedelphi, I have agreed with your posts in this thread.

[truedelphi]

153. Thank you. I have self censored in that when there are

Posts where the Pro-Hillary crowd are clearly celebrating some victory (another Hill landslide in the polls etc) I try to keep out of it.

But I really don't understand what happened to my party. Not just in terms of Hillary, but kids I grew up with who have allowed their financial managers to make Capitalistic Pig decisions. Such as declaring the company that Daddy left them as bankrupt, all so that they can shut down the workers' pensions and float out of there with a "Golden Parachute"

How do you do that when your parents were people who supported the Kennedys?

When your favorite high school nun was hit with a billy club in the 1960's during the segregation brouhas?

How can you sleep at night - on the one hand saying that you cried for weeks after Bobby was killed, but in your heart you wanted to retire by the age of 55 so badly that you screwed dozens of people out of their life savings?

It is really a strange world.

[TreasonousBastard]

7. Just to make things perfectly clear---

it was this fella Bush who got us into Iraq and made it damn near impossible to get us out.

BUSH! And all this talk of enablers and other stuff is just a smokescreen. It was BUSH!

Now, whoever wins next year is going have one hell of a mess to clean up, so vote for the person with the biggest broom. Nothing else counts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. self censor

And it had nothing to do with your point, bro...

[BlooInBloo]

13. I think we should all vote for Gore, and be done with it.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

17. I like that !! A nationwide Write in Campaign !!

[Laura PourMeADrink]

16. Excellent point. I tell you if I was a senator who voted to give B*

the power to use force - I'd be screaming, across the rooftops: "We trusted the President. Who would ever imagined a President would risk the innocent lives of our citizens based on a lie."

[CrispyQ]

151. The biggest broom -- LOL!

One of my favorite bumper stickers in '04 was:

Kerry/Edwards
It's going to take two Johns to flush all the crap out of the White House.

[B Calm]

10. Since Kuchinich wasn't allowed to debate in Iowa, I have felt the same way!

[BlooInBloo]

12. If I understand correctly, that's just made up bullshit.

[B Calm]

15. huh????

[BlooInBloo]

21. No office-y -> No debate-y...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1867507#1867542

[B Calm]

24. I clicked your link No AARP office? Sorry I don't get it!

[BlooInBloo]

29. Post #3 in that thread.

[B Calm]

32. Rep. Kucinich did not meet all four of the stated criteria for the insurance

friendly AARP... Whats with all the stated criteria in the first damn place? Is he or is he not a democratic candidate for president?

[truedelphi]

115. Sort of sounds like someone's friends in high places

(Not that connections ever make things happen in this society!)

Figured out a way to keep him out.

[B Calm]

138. Someone who gets lots of money from insurance companies..

and I wonder who that could be???

[Chovexani]

14. As a black woman

Too many people shed too much blood for my right to vote.

They can steal it all they want to, they can run Britney fucking Spears as the nominee and I will still cast my ballot. I owe it to the people who came before me.

[TreasonousBastard]

18. Damn! That says it all. Hat's off to you, ma'am. n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

19. I'd rather have it be that you voted, voted for someone you love,

and it got counted !!

[B Calm]

22. EXACTLY!

[Chovexani]

36. True enough

But they will have to pry my right to vote from my cold dead hands.

I'm not being facetious, either.

[stillcool]

47. How do you know...

they haven't already?

[Chovexani]

48. Of course they have

I have yet to have my vote count in a presidential election; the first one I was old enough to vote in was 2000. But I'm not going to be intimidated and I'm not going to be discouraged. I have voted in every election I've been old enough to vote in. The first thing I did when I moved last year was make sure I got registered in Arizona--before I even had my lights turned on!

I volunteered with GOTV efforts in 2004, and I've called/written letters/done everything short of hacking Diebold with regards to BBV and election reform. It is the single greatest issue of our time, IMO.

It's that damn important, and the way some folks can be so cavalier about it (Waa waa I'm going to take my toys and go home!!!) disgusts me.

[stillcool]

64. Good for you...

..When I still see "Gore lost", and "Kerry lost"...it is infuriating. I will vote..but then I also play the lottery...you've got to be in it..

[Booster]

26. Me too. I may not like who I vote for, but, damn it, I'm gonna vote.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Some Folks Take For Granted What Was Granted To Them

The folks that earn it don't...

You would have to put a cap in my ear before I would do anything to help the GOP by action or inaction...

[Chovexani]

37. Amen. (n/t)

[BlooInBloo]

50. Yuppers.

[tabasco]

78. Thank you!!

People don't appreciate what they have until they lose it!

[candymarl]

86. Exactly my position n/t

[AlCzervik]

23. i know i'll vote, not even a question for me. blue states stay blue because we vote

i wanted Dean last time and i was incredibly sad that he lost but in the general i voted for Kerry.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

31. Agreed - with maybe one exception - JoeMo. :) Trust me, if

it was ANYONE else! Kucinich, Biden, Richardson, Edwards, Obama, Dodd...I'd be ok. They are all good men that don't scare me.

[cobalt1999]

30. Voting gives you the right to complain.

You don't vote, be prepared to be quiet for four years, you haven't earned the right to complain.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sallyseven]

40. Don't bother to vote

I can vote for both of us.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

44. How? You know how the repukes steal it?

[porphyrian]

46. You should at least vote in the primaries.

Reserve your decision until after we have a nominee we've actually voted for. Or don't, whatever.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

52. I will - thanks !

[porphyrian]

68. Cool. - n/t

[Kurovski]

49. I have to admit to the same wondering.

But I'll be a good boy/Democrat/German/whatthefuckever.

Goddammit, Al Gore, please run already!

[Pastiche423]

53. I'm right there w/you, Laura

Our nominee was chosen for us in 2004 and it appears the same is happening for 2008.

I will vote in the primary, but it will NOT be for any warmogering DLCer that wants to continue the insurance hold on our healthcare.

If it comes to another nominee chosen for us, I will do the same as I did in the '04 primary - write my candidate's name in.

[marlakay]

55. feel the same way nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

59. I'll be voting for the most progressive, anti-war, candidate on the ballot.

Even if I have to write one in.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

65. thanks. you did it - made me WANT to vote.

[Individualist]

76. Same here

[progressivebydesign]

63. If only I had a clue what you're talking about... n/t

[H2O Man]

66. Well

it may seem that way right now, but in a few months, you will be getting very interested in how the campaigns are going. And a year from now, you will remember reading this, and laugh and say, "That old fool Water Man was right! I am looking forward to election dasy!"

[Laura PourMeADrink]

71. Can't imagine - but I do hope you are right. Maybe she is not

as wretched as I think she is now. I'll mark my calendar to email you in 3 months. ! :)

[H2O Man]

97. There is a long

time until the democratic party decides upon the nominee for the presidential race.

[elizm]

67. With you all the way...

...the fix was in a long time ago. Only difference is that I will not participate in the political suicide of the Democratic Party. I will not vote.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

72. what do you mean, political suicide of the Dem party? Please

expound....

[elizm]

130. If the Democrats are stupid enought to nominate her....

Because she will lose and the Democrats will be silenced forever...as if they aren't already.

[alfredo]

69. There's a lot of down ticket candidate to vote for. You don't need

to vote in the presidential election. You should have some congressional and state races to vote for. Maybe you should think about getting behind some congressional candidate, or some state or local candidate. Getting involved will get the old juices flowing again.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

73. I'm with you 100% ! If we can get a true majority - nothing will stop

us!

[alfredo]

75. That's very important. I will be working to defeat Mitch McConnell

[Control-Z]

70. I hope you're talking

primaries.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

74. actually the opposite.

[Skittles]

77. the primaries stink

Kerry was a done deal before the voting got anywhere near me and now it looks like it will be the same for HRC

[Vilis Veritas]

80. We need to stand together - no matter what.

It is how we win. It is how we can start to reclaim what we have lost...if they succeed in dividing us...they will win.

It is our only hope.

No Fear.

[Liberal_in_LA]

81. damn it! Vote.

[Gloria]

82. Understand completely...

[scarletwoman]

83. For the first time in my adult life I know I'm NOT going to vote.

I'll vote for Dems, as always, on the down ticket races, but I absolutely will NOT cast a vote for what I don't want in the presidential race.

sw

[Laura PourMeADrink]

90. You made me think. It is not about not wanting to vote - no one

can take that away (oh wait, yes AssHat took that away)

I suppose the fringes will not vote. Wingnuts who can't stomach Rude-y for his position on gays and abortion will stay away. The loss of their votes will be offset by the loss of the left who stay away.

[eridani]

84. We have to organize the local infrastructure--

--that can overcome the corporate noise machine. We can't get that done by 2008, so it's critically important that we get it in place as soon after that as possible.

[LittleClarkie]

85. Is that what Dean people were thinking about this time last primary season?

Wait til the votes are actually cast before you succumb to the "tsunami".

I'm really disliking this "we might as well not even have a primary and just declare her the winner" feeling I'm getting from people, esp. her supporters. There's a real smug factor there that demoralizing, and I think that's the point. I don't believe it yet. I know too many people who don't support her to believe she's inevitable.

And I can do without the effect her nomination would have on the Republicans. What an ugly campaign it will be if she gets the nomination. I'm not sure I could stand to listen to it. It'll make the "Stop Hanoi Kerry" people seem like amateurs.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

91. Well, I think the difference between the Dean deal was that we had

a decent man as a fallback choice. Sure - many of us disliked his personality - but I don't think many thought he was a loose cannon - an unknown with murky, secretive connections. He just had so many years of proof that he would stand by our values. Just like today - I prefer Edwards - but like I said already -- if it was Dodd or Biden or Kucinich or even Richardson - I could get behind them and rise to the occasion. It is just the "more of the same" "horse of a different color" that has me down.

You are so right about the ugly campaign ! But she will let it all roll off her back (like she did when Russert made that comment Sunday - about her mismanaging health care in the 90's and how she might be the cause of many more people being without it = she didn't even flinch - which I think is abnormal as shit).

Hey, I think she's going to pick Clark as a running mate - do you? I think that might help rally people?

[LittleClarkie]

93. It's certainly a possibility

He's worked with their administration before. They seem to get along. It couldn't hurt, but I'm not sure even that would counteract the hateration from the Republicans, even though I know some of them said they'd have voted for Clark for president last time.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

94. Oh, hell no. My wingnut inlaws would walk 100 miles over burning

coals to vote against her - even if Reagan came back from the dead and ran with her.

[burythehatchet]

92. Way past you on that one

I will vote for any candidate that represents me. HRC does not represent me. If that violates DU policy, so be it. My stack of DU bumper stickers is still in good shape for someone else to use.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

95. Yep - it's sad - we're back to voting for someone we love who

can't win.

[Imagevision]

96. If my choices were Giuliani,Romney or Thompson? - nah! why waste the day...?

[Vinca]

98. I feel the same way, but I know I'll pull the lever because the thought

of President Giuliani is enough to make me emigrate.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

119. Yikes, what would you do with a president thompson - go to

another planet?

[Orsino]

99. I sympathize.

The main thing that will force me to the booth is the knowledge that the GOP will be stealing votes. I believe that I need to help ensure a theft-proof majority, and that with the White House and Congress under Democratic "control," they'll find the courage to end the goddamned war and make a few other minor changes for the better.

Gore would make a great Secretary of the Interior...or should we hope that he stays relatively independent of the next Administration, the better to be heard in undiluted form?

[Totally Committed]

100. I agree with you... For the first time in my life, not voting is a real option for me.

And, if enough of us would stick to our guns and call a "strike" on election day, and refuse to vote, the Party would (maybe) begin to get the message. They could either start backing and nominating candidates we ALL can vote for, or they can continue to try and elect their wimp-ass, colluding, "moderates" (aka DINOs) without us.

Gandhi said, "Be the change...". Well, I'm ready to step up and be the change this Party desperately needs. The change this COUNTRY needs to see.

No more wars for oil, but workable environmental reforms. No more wars while inner city kids try and learn in schools that are falling down around their ears. No more tax breaks for the rich while even ONE child goes to bed hungry or sleeps in a car. No more impeachement for blow-jobs, and censuring organizations for expressing their opinion whilesoldiers and civilians are dying by the thousands in a war this administration ADMITS it lied us into, or for "lying under oath" while this administration not only lies under oath, but refuses to answer legally issued Congressional subpoenas. And, you know the drill -- the list goes on.

Not one more vote for this Party until they are willing to nominate and support candidates with the courage to change the clock from 1984 to 2008. Not one more vote until they are willing to nominate and support candidates with the courage to give EVERY American equal Rights under a newly strengthened and revitalized Constitution.

That's how I feel. I KNOW a lot of you don't agree with me. But, I won't be swayed.

TC

[Laura PourMeADrink]

120. well said. but, instead of not voting - could you please write in Gore or Kucinich or

whoever you like that's not HRC ?

[Totally Committed]

124. I might.

Not sure yet.

With Hillary's vote today for Kyl-Lieberman, I think we've pretty much seen she doesn't give an iota of a shit about going to war AGAIN. This pretty much says to me she KNOWS she'll be the nominee, no matter what she does. She's acting like she knows the "fix" is in.

Maybe it is. If I decide it is... I won't even bother to go near the polls. F*ck her.

TC

[renie408]

101. NO NO NO...the 'fix' is NOT in. You VOTE.

Vote your conscience. Things are NOT set in stone!

[WilliamPitt]

104. Vote SCOTUS

Yes, it's always worth it.

:hug:

[demodonkey]

108. Yup it's going to take a long time to clean up that mess, and we can't...

...let it get any WORSE.

But oh, the machines! The machines! I am sorry but unless a miracle happens in Congress in the next few days, 35 million will be throwing their votes down paperless Direct Record Electronic machines next November.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

129. Ya know - I knew they would fix this mess - the day I got my

survey from Nancy Pelosi about what mattered to me - out of all the things they had on there - Election Reform was Nowhere to be found. I had to write it in.

[Totally Committed]

109. You mean like in 2006, when it was "Vote for Withdrawal" and "Vote for Impeachment"???

And, we all saw where THOSE REASONS got us... :eyes:

If I thought a justice appointed by HRC and pushed through Congress by a UNITED Democratic vote would be substantially different than one by her opponent, I'd hold my nose and vote for her, should she be the nominee. But, the days of the real Liberal bullwarks on the SCOTUS are GONE. The best we'll see from a "moderate" is a mealy-mouth eqivocating "moderate" (i.e. one who will vote for the right thing sometimes, and vote against them other times, yadda, yadda, yadda.) More of the same. That's the BEST we can expect these days.

I am totally without faith in my Party at this point. So, why bother? I think in the long run, a better "point" will be made by staying home, and letting them sink or swim without me. I'm tired of living with blood on my hands because I enabled them by casting a vote for Democrats who WON'T end the wars, condemn not only free speech but sppport FISA, who continue to support a large group within the Party the votes with the Republicans anyway, who keeps Lieberman's seniority on committees, and on and on and on.... it's endless, and I'm tired of it.

TC

[WilliamPitt]

112. So what's the alternative?

22 GOP Senators running in '08 + the open seats in VA and ID. We will pick up a lot of those, and almost certainly VA unless Mark Warner gets caught "with a dead girl or a live boy," as the old JBJ saying went.

Best case = 51 + 24 = 75 = bite me Oval Office, because whoever becomes president, Ted Kennedy is picking the next three SCOTUS justices, and anyone who doesn't like it can eat a super-majority.

Three Justices will step down in two years. We will probably have at least 60 Senators, if not more.

This work ain't for us. This is for 50 years from now. We're already screwed. The least we can do is try with what we've got.

So there you go.

:toast:

[DinahMoeHum]

116. ANY of the Democratic candidates would be a THOUSAND times better

than anybody the Republikkkans could dredge up.

Yes, even HRC would be a thousand times better than them.

:kick:

[sendero]

141. That sounds nice..

.... but unfortunately it simply is not true. Only if you weigh all kinds of minor and tertiary issues to be of equal importance to things like the WAR do Dems like HRC look much better than Republicans.

Even for the vaunted SCOTUS appts. What did our team do to stop Alito and Roberts? Not a GOD DAMNED thing pretty much sums it up.

I'm losing my religion here, I don't believe in Dems that much any more.

It's every man for himself, we, I mean progressives, don't really have a party any more.

[DinahMoeHum]

147. The perfect is the enemy of the good-enough-for-now.

and if you want me to play "purity police", forget it.

I, for one, haven't lost faith in the Dems, or else I would not be contributing to Howard Dean's DNC and Jim Dean's DFA each and every month. The former is designed to rebuild the party from the grassroots up, and the latter supports progressives in the party running for various offices.

Remember this: Howard Dean's "50-State Strategy" is meant to be a LONG-TERM project. The gains we made in 2006 were simply low-hanging fruit.

:kick:

[sendero]

152. I don't want you..

... to play anything. And as for Dean' strategy, I like it fine.

I'm commenting on the current crop of candidates, who I just don't think much of.

Long term is long term. I didn't say I thought the Dems were a lost cause forever, just in the near term.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

121. I LOVE that " = bite me Oval Office" !! nt

[rodeodance]

105. - holding my nose. Good, the Sepreme Court appointment is at stake.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

122. glad you mention SCOTUS !! thanks....

[ThomWV]

107. The only possible nomineed who I think would actually make a difference is Al Gore

Any of the rest (Kucinich is of course an exception, but he will never be the Nominee) and the future you predict is an odds-on bet.

[Freddie Stubbs]

111. Can you explain how "the fix is in?"

:shrug:

[Laura PourMeADrink]

123. the million dollar question. How can she be ahead when virtually

every Dem I know and 90% here (from my last poll) don't like her?

[Freddie Stubbs]

133. Apperently the Democrats you know are not reprsentative of Democrats as a whole

[Laura PourMeADrink]

137. what do you mean?

[Freddie Stubbs]

143. Virtually every scientifically conducted poll is showing that Hillary is in the lead

Four years ago Clark and Kucinich won virtually every DU poll, but when it cam time for actual voters and caucus-goers to cast their ballots, both of them came up short.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

126. Oh - and the rumor that Bill and Hillary are WAY TOO SMART not

to know that the o4 was rigged. Bill is a genius - he used to sleep in law school and the professor would ask him a question and he would wake up and answer. I bet he knows every precinct out there. The deal with BushCo -- We won't say anything if you promise Hillary gets in in o8 !

[Freddie Stubbs]

134. So, what was Kerry and Edward's excuse?

Or are they just not as smart?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

136. Excellent question. Didn't they say Edwards was really pissed about

the concession? As for Kerry - I bet he knew too - but he was too thin-skinned. So afraid that people would call him a sore loser. But, maybe it was pragmatism. Someone here knew Barney Frank. It was a time when all of us were writing and calling people in congress. Barney wrote him back and said - (paraphrasing) "We know, we know, (the election stunk to high heaven), but what can we do. There is nothing we can do. We don't have the votes in congress to overturn the results." so in other words, many didn't want to fight - because there was no way you could win.

[Freddie Stubbs]

142. Odd how Edwards has never said this publicly himself

[NC_Nurse]

132. Corporate money.

[Freddie Stubbs]

135. Corporations are prohibited by law from donating to federal campaigns

[RubyDuby in GA]

113. I'm right there with you. I'm sick and tired of holding my nose to vote!

I'll do it out of habit, but unless Edwards is the nominee this time around - it will just be more of the same for me. Holding my nose and voting for the lesser of two evils.

[BreweryYardRat]

114. Maybe we'll be lucky. Maybe she won't.

I REALLY want Edwards or Obama. Hillary's a long step up from Bush, but she still only takes us to the middle of the road, because the corporations have her bought and paid for already.

Of course, I'd prefer Clark or Gore to any of them.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

127. Look at these latest numbers ! Who can and can't beat Rudy

Who can beat RUDE-Y and where.

http://surveyusa.com/electionpolls.aspx

Methodology: If beating Rudy in current polls and ahead by > margin of
of error - ev's allotted to Dem. If within MOE, arbitrarily allotted half
of ev's. Note: Over last month's numbers - Rudy has really gained against Edwards.

MATCH-UP WITH RUDE-Y - EVs
State....Clinton...Edwards....Obama


NM............5..........5...........2.5*

IOWA.........7..........7...........7

MO..........11.........11..........11

OH............0.........10*..........0

KY.............0..........0............0

KS.............0..........0............0

AL.............0..........0............0

MA...........12.........6*...........0

VA............0.........6.5*.........0

CA...........55........55...........27.5*

NY...........31.........0............0

MN............5*.......10............0

WI............5*.......10............5*


Electoral Vote Totals:

Hillary: 126
vs. Rudy: 66

Edwards: 120.5
vs. Rudy: 76.5

Obama: 53
vs. Rudy: 141.5

[ecstatic]

117. That and... will your vote even be counted correctly?

Amazingly, they didn't think it was important enough to ensure 100% paper trails by 2008. They know something we don't. I will still vote, my only dealbreaker is what's mentioned in my sig.

[mmonk]

118. You have slapped in the face syndrome.

I have a variant myself.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

139. Funny how it's always the left side of the face that gets slapped.

[Danger Mouse]

125. All that, and a vote for war with Iran!

I'll need an industrial strength clothespin to pinch my nose in order to vote for Hillary if she gets the nod.

[question everything]

131. There will be at least one, perhaps as many as 3 Supreme Court

vacancies, all of them liberals: Stevens, Sauter, Ginsburg.

If you, and others, will not vote for the Democratic nominee, say good bye to any chances to restore our basic human rights, to freedom of choice, to freedom from government intervention, to even blogs like DU.

No matter who the nominee is, s/he will not appoint more Roberts and Alito.

[BreweryYardRat]

140. Oh, I'll hold my nose and vote for Hillary if I have to.

As I said, she takes us back to "middle-of-the-road." I just really want a better candidate.

[CrispyQ]

145. "Primaries are just a freakin charade."

Of course they are! I vote on the same vote stealing machines in the primaries as the general.

LPYB, I'm has discouraged as you are. :cry:

:hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

149. If you have a primary, vote for Kucinich

Whether he wins or not, you can have the satisfaction of voting for someone who voted against the IWR that got us into this whole stinking mess.

Even if he's out of the race, you can still vote for him as a write-in.

If you don't vote, you're not counted at all. If you DO vote, your opinion is counted (or even if it's not counted fairly, SOMEONE will know about it).

The powers that be interpret silence as consent.

Remember how it was said that Reagan won in "a landslide" in 1980?

In fact, since about 50% of the people didn't vote, only 27% of eligible voters actually checked off RR's name on their ballots.

In most states, there are alternatives if you don't like the candidates presented to you, ways for your opinion to be counted.

[lonestarnot]

150. Dennis.

[slackmaster]

154. Please don't vote

Make mine count more.

[Mme. Defarge]

155. You are not alone.

I'll vote, but not for Hillary. A write-in, if necessary. Even if the Dem's run a candidate who reflects my values, I can't imagine working on his/her campaign when the party has failed to stand up for their winning candidates in '00 and '04. I refuse to be a useful idiot three elections in a row.

[Raine]

157. I'm in the same position

I'm not sure what I'll do. :-(

[L. Coyote]

158. For the first time in my adult life, it has never been so important to vote.

And, the anti-democratic forces are working overtime to make people think that they do not need to vote.

[BlooInBloo]

160. I don't. It's my fucking job.