I'm going to keep this short and to the point. Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier.

[Skinner]

If you think he is not a Holocaust denier, do not post that garbage here. I also strongly suggest that you refrain from clicking the "recommend" link on such garbage.

Skinner
DU Admin

[ruggerson]

1. Thank you

he's also a murderer of gay children.

[dickbearton]

512. He is a Holocaust denier; but Bush has caused a Holocaust...

The Criminal Bush's Iraqi war has killed over a million people
and counting.

[cali]

525. And no one is saying you shouldn't say that

It's said many times every day.

[Swede]

2. Thanks Skinner.

What are some people thinking?

[Seabiscuit]

495. Yup. That cinches it. No discussion allowed. And no kicking this to the top of the greatest

threads list. It simply won't be tolerated. :)

[ourbluenation]

3. yep - a homophobic anti-semite fanatic pretty much sums him up. n/t

[lonestarnot]

4. Imadinashirt is a nutball for sure.

[Catherine Vincent]

5. Got a link?

(just kidding) :hi:

[Swamp Rat]

110. Bad cat!

meow! :D :hi:

[cali]

6. yes. and thanks so much.

[Kelly Rupert]

7. God damn it Skinner, thank you. n/t

[Fenris]

8. He also doesn't believe there are gay people in Iran.

Despite ample evidence that his country executes homosexuals on a fairly regular basis. Apparently not believing in empirical data is a hobby of the Iranian President.

[LittleClarkie]

44. There probably aren't... anymore.

Must be hell for those still underground with such a secret.

[slackmaster]

233. I've heard first-hand reports there were plenty of them before the 1979 revolution

At least in Tehran.

[tishaLA]

339. Apparently so...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnzL4nQ3CDU

and parts 2 and 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFiKS9dKc0s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NxmUp1fYTM

ETA: additional links

[Frogger]

436. Not that

are organizing any "Gay Pride" events, anyway. I'm pretty sure they've got the "don't tell" part down pat, but I'll bet they are pretty fuzzy about "don't ask".

[kisserofsinners]

322. He said we don't have homosexuals "like" you do...

like no public displays of sin in parades, only public executions. A little more of that would make the world a better place. (sarcasm)

[Crap_in_a_Hat]

358. Don't give Dubya ideas

Or whatever his equivalent of liberal elitist "ideeyuhs" are. He needs to focus his energies on patrio-gulags for Arabs (don't tell him Iranians aren't Arab; he'll just get mad) before he adopts the Ahmedinejad position on them sissy types.

[ClintonTyree]

361. He seems to share that "hobby" with our own pResident.

The "not believing in empirical data" part. Not the other part. ;)

[terrya]

382. Right you are

Thank you for pointing that out. Iran, along with Saudi Arabia, executes gay people on a fairly regular basis.

[jhrobbins]

424. Yep and I'm betting that you (and me as well) won't be planning

any mid east vacations any time soon - I guess Bob Damron doesn't list them in his guide book.

;-)

[ProudDad]

435. That's not what he said.

Check the facts before swallowing M$M lies aimed to get you on board for the next war...

[yardwork]

506. Iran executes children for being gay.

[MADem]

9. Thank you. I especially appreciate your saying that.

I've gotten some harsh and unkind commentary for reaching that same conclusion, and objecting to the 'moral equivalency' game.

Garbage it is, indeed.

[SeattleGirl]

10. Absolutely, Skinner!

Thank you! :thumbsup:

[Mojorabbit]

11. No

he is a savvy politician with low ratings in Iran. He comes here, and being that his culture shows respect and politeness to anyone regardless of how one feels about them.. puts himself right in the middle of a situation where he is sure to be dissed by the ugly americans. He was... and now his countrymen and women are appalled at his treatment and rallying behind him. Mission accomplished.

[MADem]

12. Sorry--he did his 'denying' well before this US trip was on the radar. NT

[Mojorabbit]

76. I know

and the point I am trying to make is that whether he denies the holocaust or not is irrelevant at this point in time in the larger scheme of things. We are a hairs breath of going to war with that country. If we do.. generations will be fighting in the mideast.

He won't be president of that country for much longer. Hopefully a more moderate person will have that position next and hopefully have some influence on the religious leaders. If we did not have neocons itching for war with Iran and stirring up sentiment in Iran, He would be a blip on my radar and probably would not be president now.

[MADem]

127. I don't think we are as close as some think, honestly.

There might be an Osirak-like strike (Israel v. Iraq, 1981) but there will be no invasion. We don't have the forces, and there's no time left to ramp up a draft. It's six months to get them in the pipeline (that's in training, not in the field), and we don't have enough bootcamps, anymore, either.

If troops invade Iran, they'll be Jordanian and Gulf State servicemembers. And that will only happen if Iran REALLY pisses off the long-view Saudis.

I think the Supreme Leader has already chosen the next Iranian Prez--and it's Khatami, again. The people will vote, the Midget Mayor will put up a helluva fight, and the Ulema will count the votes. We'll see how it turns out. I think Midget Mayor is o-u-t, and he's probably the only one who doesn't know it yet.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

205. I Oppose War With Iran As I Am Sure You Do

The problem with a surgical strike is there is no way we know how they will react.

[BurtWorm]

251. The problem with a "surgical" strike is that it is a strike.

And strikes of any kind come fraught with all sorts of unforeseen consequences.

[MADem]

523. It's a very valid point.

Who ever thought knocking off an Archduke in Sarajevo would lead to acres of graves around the world?

Anytime there's an act of aggression, things have potential to get out of hand.

[MADem]

368. My take--they don't have the 'clout' to respond, really. They might

do some ineffectual bullshit against forces in Iraq, maybe at that new Camp Shocker (but they'll have to co-opt Kurds on their side of the border to do anything really jazzy--that might be tough).

It's not just their physical infrastructure that's crumbling. They have shit-fer-weapons. That new aircraft they built? It's a fucking F-4 with idiotic looking add-ons and a lousy paint job that we left behind in Esfahan. Their new rockets? Retooled Chinese shit.

It's all a big sabre rattle, and the sabre is suited for the stage--made of rubber, painted silver.

We shall see, though. I'm not ready to cry 'Doom!' but I actually do think all the griping by people who are warning and wailing about the potential for war is a good thing--it gives this gubmint PAUSE....and they haven't had much of that, when they've needed it!!!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

412. How Will They Ever Co-Opt The Kurds?

The Kurds and the Israelis are the only ones in that area that like us...

What if they mine the Straits Of Hormuz?

[jeff30997]

484. "The Kurds and the Israelis are the only ones in that area that like us"

The Kurds still like the US after what Bush I did to them ? Well if that's the case they are a very

forgiving people.

[madeline_con]

504. Yes, after the Kurds were left to twist in the wind by the US

who promised to back a coup, they are very forgiving.

As for Israel, I don't think they particularly like us, they just want us to send $$$.

[MADem]

517. Like I said, they're running out of time. They could mine the straits, but why?

There's still the northern routes, and the fact that Iran has cleverly partnered with nations that we don't want to piss off. And it's not that hard to build another pipeline or three with motivation, really. There are other ways to get oil out of Iran: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/Caspian/ExportIssues.html

Iranian oil exports and swaps

Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan have initiated low-volume oil "swap" deals with Iran, delivering oil in tankers to refineries in Iran's northern regions in exchange for similar volumes of crude at Kharg Island in the Persian Gulf. The different types of Caspian crude are blended together at the Caspian port of Neka and then swapped, after payment of a fee that is in the range of $1.50 to $2.00 per barrel . All the swap contracts are handled by Naftiran Intertrade Co. (Nico), National Iranian Oil Company’s (NIOC) Lausanne-based subsidiary. The largest of Nico's contracts is with Kazakh state oil company Kazmunaigas, which is supplying up to 70,000 bbl/d of different types of crude to Neka. Dragon Oil, a UAE company which operates in Turkmenistan, is sending over half (or 9,000 bbl/d) of its crude oil output to the Neka port. Nico also receives shipments of gasoline and gasoil from Turkmenistan at its smaller terminals of Bandar Nowshar and Bandar Anzali.

During early 2004, Iran completed efforts to upgrade its domestic distribution network and to the Neka seaport to allow swap capacity to increase from roughly 50,000 bbl/d to 150,000 bbl/d. Mohammad Reza Nematzadeh, a deputy oil minister, was quoted in October 2006 as saying that the capacity of the pipeline will be expanded from around 150,000 b bl /d to 250,000 b bl /d by the end of the month and, with the installation of new pump stations, will reach a capacity of 500,000 b bl / d by the end of March 2007.

According to Nematzadeh Iran plans to construct a 250,000 bbl/d refinery close to Neka. Iran is also developing its Tabriz and Tehran refineries so that they can refine up to 500,000 bbl/d of Caspian crude oil. Since 2004, swap levels dwindled to 35,000 bbl/d during the winter of 2004-2005 and have now increased slightly to around 147,000 bbl/d.

Exports to the North and Northwest

For its part, Russia has proposed multiple pipeline routes that utilize its existing and proposed infrastructure. Shortly after independence, two new northwesterly pipelines were constructed, known as the "Northern" and "Western" Early Oil Pipelines. These extend from Baku to Novorossiysk (Russia), and Baku to Supsa (Georgia), respectively, and have a combined capacity of roughly 245,000 bbl/d (see map ). Also, an existing northbound pipeline from Atyrau in Kazakhstan to Samara in Russia has been upgraded, but is expected to become relatively less significant if throughput at CPC increases.

I wonder if the UN will go along with that kind of shit this time--and they'll need the UN.

As for the Kurds, they'll make the best deal possible--for themselves. They are unlikely to buy sweet promises and assurances. They've been screwed too many times before.

The Saudis like us just fine--well, at least the Royal Family does. Hell, we've been their rented army since the close of WW2!!!! The Egyptian government will play ball too--they get a boatload of dough from us in direct aid and FMS. Same deal with the Jordanians. It doesn't matter what the people think, so long as these strongmen leaders have a tight rein on their power bases. It's certainly not representative democracy over that way....

[atreides1]

493. Please provide sources for your "take"

Well actually the US equipment was part of the Shah's Air Force, so "we" didn't leave anything behind! The navy is a joke, considering that most of their ships are between 25-50 years old, but they do seem to have acquired additional mine warfare capability.

And while the rockets may be crap, the Silkworm anti-ship missiles can be effective if used within its specifications, and then there is the possibility that the Iranians may be getting the newer Yingji-82, which has been considered-along with the US Harpoon missile – as among the best anti-ship missiles of its generation.

Some of their surface to surface missiles look promising, though they do have mainly older launch systems, but it seems they've developed a MIRV, which both the US and Israelis say may be a bluff.
Speaking for myself, if I were on the receiving end it would take more then the word of the Intel community.

Can Iran win? probably not, can they cause enough havoc in Iraq?, it's a good possibility, and with over 100,000 US troops as targets, I'd like a little more then just your "take".

[MADem]

518. My sources are my experience. You can 'take' or leave it.

It's an opinion, and I don't obligate you to sign on to it.

FWIW, We leased those aircraft to Shah--they weren't sold outright. So we did leave them behind. They weren't quite paid for. We destroyed the guided missile systems on them, though. Pissed off the Pasaradan big time. It caused trouble for some evacuees from the area of the Crown Prince Reza Air Base, which is where the a/c were located.

Their Navy needs glass bottomed boats, to look at their Air Force. Both of which used to be among the best in the Gulf. Times change....

[IsItJustMe]

496. Not only that, but they will be waiting for us with flowers. Sounds like some previous reasoning I

have heard. Fact of matter is, no one knows and I damn sure don't want to find out.

[MADem]

522. Well, one of two things will happen before Bush leaves office.

Either he'll go in, or he won't. I'm betting that he won't. Your mileage varies. But I must say, that was a rather lame leap to suggest that what I said "sounds like some previous reasoning" you heard. Because if you really read what I wrote, it's quite plain that I'm not in any cakewalk crowd. I'm in the "He won't dare" bunch.

If he does go in, there won't be flowers and sweets. There will be great rage. Iranians, like most other well-defined national groups (and they have a history that makes America's look like a blip), have a strong sense of identity and won't roll over quietly. That history, cultural identity and nationalism factor into my feeling that he just won't do it.

[CanSocDem]

292. That's it!

"...the point I am trying to make is that whether he denies the holocaust or not is irrelevant at this point in time in the larger scheme of things."

Certainly doesn't seem like a good reason to ignite the middle-eastern 'fuse'...


.

[Kelly Rupert]

13. His reasons for denying the Holocaust are not at issue here.

Whether he denies it because he honestly believes it or whether he denies it because he thinks it'll win him support at home, he's still a Holocaust denier.

[onenote]

16. "a culture that shows respect and politeness to anyone"?

Tell that to gays and dissidents in Iran. Very polite indeed.

[Fenris]

19. "Would you kindly put this noose around your neck, homosexual devil?"

[GOPBasher]

461. Well yeah, except for them.

Well besides homosexuals, women, "secularists," and followers of any religion besides Shia Islam, the dictatorship in that country is super duper swell to everyone!

[MADem]

24. I know a little about 'taroof'--the ritual politeness.

When someone shows up at your door that you don't want to entertain, if you ANSWER that door, you're fucked. You have to give them pears and cucumbers and coke and chips and sweets and sit and make mindless small talk for eons. If they say they LIKE something you own, you have to offer it to them, they refuse, you have to PRESS it on them, they refuse...but if they take it, and a few assholes will, you're fucked. You lost your item, and you can't bitch about it.

The way to avoid it is to have a mirror set up in the window so you can see who is at the gate without having to twitch the curtains and give yourself away, and then HIDE until the fuckers give up ringing the bell and go away. If you have a phone, you're a fool if you don't hook up an answerphone as well, because they will call, bang on the door, and ask the neighbors if they saw you go out. I shit you not.


That's yer taroof!!!! And it SUCKS if you don't know how to play it!

[Mojorabbit]

46. Yes,

that is what I am talking about. He knew what he'd get here in America and played it for politics back home.
And when we are on the edge of teetering into war with his country it was a wonderful political move if you look at it dispassionately. I wish more people were educated on other cultures in this country so we would not fall into these games so easily. I hate that he is in power and that the neocons are raring to start another war. Aren't there any state department people or diplomats in our govt who have a clue and could have check mated this type of thing for pete's sake.

When I lived in Japan in the seventies, it was a whole nother culture with an artful dance in politeness and behaviour. The military gave we spouses all kinds of information and instruction so that all went as smoothly as possible. Have things changed so much in the govt that no one has any rudimentary knowledge of the culture of other nations?

He played us. Period.

[annabanana]

227. Thank you for this. You should make this it's own post.

Since the internet is international, and I'm sure that we've been quoted in places we don't understand, this kind of information should be spread by the net..

I had heard of this difference, but never saw it explained in a cross-cultural way before.

[MADem]

387. We're probably better off letting the whole Persian brouhaha die down for now!

If the need arises, I'll bring it up again. I have 'taroof tales' a-plenty! There are few worse things than being TRAPPED in one of those situations--a great technique (if you have a phone) is to duck into another room and swiftly dial a friend or three to 'drop in' and share the misery!!!

[GOPBasher]

460. Thank you onenote.

That was short, sweet, to the point, and impossible to argue with. I really can't believe my eyes when people defend that nutcase dictator in Iran. Here's what I think: I love us Americans and I love the Persians, and both peoples deserve better leaders who will work for peace.

[onenote]

22. "and now his countrymen and women are appalled at his treatment and are rallying behind him"

Do you have any links to support that?

[Mojorabbit]

49. I read it here this afternoon

They interviewed many people including a nurse who were amazed at our lack of civility and were looking at it from their culture where you do not insult guests.

[MADem]

95. Well, that IS true (I didn't post that assertion, but I am butting in)

And even though I can't agree with the "preplanned Holocaust denial" to get us riled, way in advance of a trip to the UN he hadn't even scheduled at the time he made that offensive speech, cited elsewhere in the thread, it is true that he's getting good play from his peeps at home.

Here's a blog that is reflective of how some Persians are seeing it: http://benevis-dige.blogspot.com/

Even Radio Free Europe is grudgingly acknowledging that he's garnered some support as a result of this idiotic adventure (and of course they'd rather say otherwise): http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/09/5313B078-4467-4D74-B94F-59135A1FC549.html

The press in Iran is playing it up as well. It's bread and circuses, only there's no bread--just this huge nationalistic circus. Ahmadinejad sure needs a boost, what with the gas rationing, the inflation, the infrastructure crumbling and all the other problems Iran is seeing these days. Hell, there's a STRONG rumor going about that Khatami is thinking about giving it another go--who knows, maybe the Supreme Leader has asked him to step up to get rid of the Midget Mayor. That means we'll have two terms of (relative) normalcy, hopefully, if the guy stays well.

Of course, the censors are alreaady at work, trying to polish the Ahmadinejad turd. They've cut out that 'gay' exchange from the Persian official record--fast work, that!!! http://miamiherald.typepad.com/gaysouthflorida/2007/09/iranian-presi-1.html

The English version of the President's official website (www.president.ir) provides a full and complete transcript of his speech and the Question & Answer segment where he claimed that homosexuality does not exist in Iran. However, the Persian-language transcript has excised both the question about treatment of lesbians and gay men in Iran and President Ahmadinejad's soon to be legendary response.

The President's website purportedly provides the authoritative transcripts of his speeches and is relied upon by the news media in Iran. To date, not a single Persian-language media outlet in Iran - including Iran's official news agency, IRNA, and the semi-independent news agencies, ISNA, Mehrrnews and Farsnews, and the Wednesday morning newspapers - has reported on the President's comments.

After President Ahmadinejad's speech on Monday, the Professor John H. Coatsworth moderated a Question & Answer session. Among the questions was why Iran has executed citizens who are homosexuals, to which the President responded "In Iran, we don't have homosexuals, like in your country. We don't have that in our country. In Iran, we do not have this phenomenon. I don't know who's told you that we have it."

"The first reaction of many of us was to join in the astonished response to President Ahmadinejad's clearly outrageous view that no lesbian or gay people live in Iran," said Paula Ettelbrick, Executive Director of IGLHRC. "But the whitewashing of his comments from the eyes and ears of most Iranian citizens speaks to something more troubling. His denial attempts to simply erase from public view the lives of men and women who face regular abuse in his country. Perhaps he knows he could not credibly get away with such a denial among his own people."

IGLHRC has documented widespread and systemic violations of the rights of members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community in Iran. For more information about IGLHRC's work, visit: www.iglhrc.org.

The Midget Mayor wants to lower the voting age back down to fifteen, to get all those poor dumb teenagers who hang around the mosque to vote for him. I think it got raised in an effort to get that bastard gone, myself: http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iUE11IIExDFn6Lv-BqeVIFw5v0xg

[tigereye]

306. thanks for these informative perspectives...

[MADem]

371. Anytime. Iran is near and dear to my heart.

I love the people and the land, hate the government! They'll never realise their potential with all the corruption and repression--and they've got a TON of potential. I hope they find their way to 'good government' on their own in my lifetime. I'd like to go back...!

[JuniperLea]

481. The same could be said for Israel

Love the people, hate the government. If the people ruled their own country, there would be no problems with Palestinians.

Gee, people running their own countries... what a great idea! We should look into doing that in the good ol' USA!

[MADem]

516. Yep=Israel is stunning. So's Palestine. Especially the beaches!!!

Eh...one day, one day.

Hope I live to see it.

[JuniperLea]

526. I have tons of pics from my cousins in Israel...

So incredibly beautiful!

They are my most trusted source of information re: Israel and Palestine... they live, work, and socialize with both Israelis and Palestinians... and the beauty in their friendships is just as stunning as the scenery. The entire mess has been created by the governments, not the people. We are in the same boat on this one!

[ShaneGR]

63. LOL, RESPECT AND POLITENESS?

How is respect and politeness calling for the destruction of Israel, executing gay people, suppressing free speech, denying the holocaust, restricting womens rights, gees, I could go on and on.

[Mojorabbit]

100. Have you ever traveled or lived

overseas? Experienced other cultures? Have you ever wondered why we have diplomats?
He is representing his country and there is a westernization going on there underneath the mullah's radar.
It is like a family member, you might hate him but you don't like anyone else talking trash about them. It undermines change for the better when he is treated this way and it does not play well in their country. He is an elected wackjob president like ours. He will not be there forever unless we help boost his ratings by having officials insulting him while he is a guest.

He dissed the US without ever mentioning us by name in his speech today. A pure politician. I Can't stand his views but his speech at the UN will play well at home and it will look as though he played the whole thing with class as a leader. Doesn't anyone on DU play chess?

[ProudDad]

438. Exactly!!!

The most ignorant population on Earth is in USAmerica...

[madeline_con]

507. Because we don't have maps!

:rofl:

[rabies1]

299. I agree, he does have sh*t for brains

I think they want us to get sidetracked by this crazy man. So we'll all talk about how hateful he is. Probably the 2 worst leaders in the world are Bush and this guy. I can not, however add to "hate" talk about Iran when war is looming over their heads. I think it says to the administration 'See, we hate Iran. So go ahead and attack them.' Bush is a horrible, does that mean all Americans are & should be bombed? You can think that this guy's a bastard or a moron but don't say it out loud, it can and will be used against us as an excuse to attack Iran.

[Patsy Stone]

14. Absolutely right.

Additionally, just because Bush is crazy, it doesn't make this guy sane.

[Kelly Rupert]

20. That's the critical issue so many have difficulty with.

Applies to Chavez, too.

[cali]

26. People get invested in these

guys and can't deal with the facts. Essentially by insisting that Ahmadinejad in not a holocaust denier, after they've been shown, the overwhelming evidence, they're endorsing some very ugly shit.

And some people, I predict, are going to have a hard time with skinner's position.

[KAZ]

35. You're right, I didn't like his post. It sounded a little...

... "Rimjob-ish", circa '99. Skinner is absolutely right on his facts, but I feel like he's not giving his members enough credit for their ability to stand up to the juvenile trash that's being tossed about. It seems like everyone is on edge.

[MADem]

112. The big difference, though, is that there isn't any 'debate' amongst thinking people

about what happened to those people burned in those ovens. There just isn't. As someone else noted, Ike made sure that shit was filmed, so there would be a record.

Shutting down "debate" isn't a good thing. That's not what is happening here. Shutting down trollish, deliberately-designed-to-rile, pure, unadulturated horseshit? That's what is happening, and I've no problem with that. In fact, I cheer it on.

[KAZ]

123. Well, you may be right. I go back to my thoughts on ...

... the most powerful moment in A-man's speech, which was the moment he was laughed at for his "No gays in Iran" remark. Screaming and yelling and stamping our feet does little. Shining a bright light on stupidity changes the world.

[MADem]

133. That bit got CENSORED in Farsi, FWIW. Funny how the Prez didn't want his

own peeps to know what he said. On his website, it's there in English, for the international crowd... but in Farsi? Poof!! It's GONE! He NEVER said it if you don't read English!!!

I posted a link to the details in post 95.

The boy's pants are on fire! And his nation's people aren't able to see it or hear it or read it...

[KAZ]

157. Understood, but I'm sure his comments have gone "viral".

In my feeble mind, it was a very good moment, which really defined the IFB (Iranian Figurehead Bogeyman), and the West. I think a good portion of the world will like the "West" in that exchange, or at least chuckle at the IFB.

[MADem]

166. His base will never see it, unfortunately. They're the rubes outside

Teheran, in the small villages, and the rabid asswipes in South Teheran, half of whom think computers are the Shatan.

They'll believe what they see on NIRT, and even if they get a conflicting report via satellite, they'll assume it was planted by the CIA to discredit their boy.

Trust me, his base--they're every bit as rabid and mouth-breathing as the hyper fundies of the GOP.

[EFerrari]

395. That's pretty much what I've been reading. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

207. It's Called The Willing Suspension Of Disbelief Or Hypocrisy

I will judge everybody by the same standards...


If I don't I hope I am called on it... I really do...Because , imho, hypocrisy is the biggest sin of all...

[kenfrequed]

310. IT does NOT

Chavez is advesarial to the wealthy and to us interests. He does not, not ever has supported terrorism, death squads, holocaust revisionism, blowing up western people or targets, or fundamentalist religions.

Get your damned facts straight.

[GOPBasher]

464. Exactly.

The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend; indeed, in this case, they're both enemies.

[Rex]

15. Can't argue with that.

[The Straight Story]

17. Indeed he is

thanks for the post :)

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Thanks.

:thumbsup:

[SaveOurDemocracy]

21. Thanks...It's been quite bizarre around here recently. n/t

[Skittles]

194. yes

it is very unsettling

[Dorian Gray]

23. Thank you for clarifying your position....

one that I wholeheartedly agree with.

[TheUniverse]

25. He denies it in his country.

But is too afraid to do it in an American University. I wonder why?

[razzleberry]

27. Thanks, for posting this. .n/t

[Beausoir]

28. Who didn't know this??

[Kelly Rupert]

30. Plenty of DUers. Look around.

It's been weird.

[MannyGoldstein]

29. Thanks - Eisenhower Shot All Of That Holocaust Footage Precisely To Preempt The Deniers

Because once we deny or forget - it will repeat.

[polmaven]

262. Whatever happened to Republicans

we could respect, like President Eisenhower? ....Off topic, I know, and I apologize, but I just had to ask the question.

[Kajsa]

296. I've wondered that, too.

n/t

[MannyGoldstein]

462. Today's Democrats Are To The RIGHT Of Ike!

http://blueworksbetter.com/EisenhowerFlamingLiberal

(from my blog)

[DeepModem Mom]

Thank you, Skinner. Thank you.

[and-justice-for-all]

31. Dont forget kids....

There are some Jewish Holocaust deniers too, might be a small number but they do exist; because they attended the seminar that was held in Iran last year.

[cali]

33. And your point is?

Really, what is the point of that statement? Inquiring minds and all that.

[and-justice-for-all]

85. If your going to finger point...

You should include all that share that same sentiment of denying the Holocaust. Most people, do not even know nor are they aware that there are Jewish Holocaust Deniers.

I am not at all shocked that Ahmadinejad would say this, the shocking thing is finding out that there are Jewish deniers of the Holocaust.

[cali]

94. Actually, give me a link.

I've never heard of jewish holocaust deniers.

[blondeatlast]

275. Well, you know, "Some people say there are Hewish Holocaust deniers."

Some people make shit up that is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand, too.

Don't hold your breath, cali. DU needs your sanity more than ever.

[piesRsquare]

140. Those Jews are not "Holocaust deniers"

The Jews at the Iranian conference are vehemently anti-Israel, and so were invited to attend--and did.

[tomfodw]

315. There are no "Jewish Holocaust deniers"

The people you are referring to, the Netura Kartei, do not deny the Holocaust - many of them are survivors of the camps. They are ultra-Orthodox Jews who believe that only the Messiah will have the right to re-establish a Jewish state (actually, a kingdom) in Israel and that the current state of Israel is illegitimate. They denounced Ahmadinejad for his denial of the Holocaust but went to his conference because they are anti-Zionists, too. It was a foolish move on their part, since it gave Ahmadinejad cover (admittedly, threadbare cover) from charges that he is anti-Semitic.

There are hardly any people in the world who get most Jews madder than these people.

[EFerrari]

32. I've decided that what is insidious about this guy is that he doesn't deny

anything outright. He just dances around it. His speech is heavily coded. He literally acknowledged the Holocaust between five and ten times yesterday. But, it was always conditional.

After listening to him a few times, he reminds me of the guy from the current Jena school board that Amy Goodman interviewed about a week ago. He didn't say anything overtly racist. But, he was clearly and deeply bigoted. He danced around the issue and his speech was also very coded.

These people are also cowards.

[cali]

38. I'm glad you've changed your mind.

As recently as a day ago you were posting that there was no evidence that he was a holocaust denier, despite people providing you with evidence to the contrary. As I said I'm glad you've seen the light, but he doesn't just dance around it. He's outright said it repeatedly and he held a Holocaust denial conference with the likes of David Duke as an invited guest. He was slightly more evasive at Columbia, but his history and past comments are clear.

[harun]

298. How can he be denying it when he says it is the fault of the Europeans

that the holocaust took place and not the fault of the Palestinians? Isn't that confirmation from him that he believes it took place and not denial?

[sir_captain]

323. He held a fricking Holocaust denial conference

in Iran. Please, please try to be less ignorant before you open your mouth and say something utterly moronic.

[EFerrari]

350. It's not particularly helpful to respond to real questions

by jumping down peoples' throat. They tend to stop asking real questions.

[sir_captain]

377. Nope, sorry

This is an extremely clear-cut issue. There are no shades of gray here, and if the poster is simply ignorant on the issue, he/she should educate themselves rather than post drivel.

Of course he wasn't as clear on his position in NYC as he was at his "conference" in Iran where he in no uncertain terms declared that the holocaust did not happen as has been documented. You either accept that or you don't.

I'm really not trying to jump down your throat here either and I certainly intend no disrespect--I'm sure we would agree that on most issues, the truth lies somewhere in the middle and that people's honest questions should be answered in a polite manner. This simply is not one of those issues and any informed adult ought to know better. Skinner could not have made the point any more clearly.

[EFerrari]

390. I'm not talking about "shades of gray" but about responding to

people when they ask questions, any real question. I only understood what this guy is about five minutes ago and did so because a few people answered my questions and pointed me to resources, not because ten people in GD screamed at me.

[sir_captain]

394. Fair enough

I see your point. I do, however, think, that it's kind of crazy, in a thread specifically telling people not to say the guy is not a holocaust denier, to make a post saying, "this guy is not really a holocaust denier." I should probably have been more measured in my response, and I tried to do that in my reply to the gentleman below, but I still do not have a lot of patience--one should not make such an inflammatory statement (even phrased in the form of a question) without at least making a token effort to educate oneself.

[EFerrari]

408. Sure. I think the fact of such a denial is so horrible

that it can induce disbelief: it's almost traumatic to know there is that kind of evil in the world and among your fellow men. The reaction puts me in mind of a story Golda Meir used to tell about trying to ask / alert British administrators to rumors coming out of Europe at the time. "Do you believe everything you hear, Mrs. Meir?"

Not to mention, the guy appeared to be acknowledging the Holocaust at several points -- most likely to mystify the conversation and produce just this kind of effect: "But, he didn't deny it." The guy is a skilled manipulator.

[sir_captain]

420. I wouldn't be shocked

if he personally knows perfectly well what happened and simply denies it as a political tool (which in some ways might be even worse than if he were simply a total crazy person.) He certainly knew that if he stood on the stage at Columbia, in a city where there are more Jews than live in Israel, and denied the holocaust he was going to get booed off the stage whereas if he framed it as a Palestinian issue, he'd likely get a certain amount of support. He's nothing if not a political opportunist.

Anyway, it's been good having civil discourse--something that happens a bit too rarely around here. :toast:

[EFerrari]

422. I think you may well be right about that.

:)

[Usrename]

454. I thought that was the whole point of this thread.

To make people stop asking questions, having discussions.

Didn't you bother to read the OP?

[EFerrari]

465. Debating this issue isn't the same as trying to inform yourself

which is what I thought that poster was doing. But, I was having a nanny moment and might be wrong.

[Usrename]

468. How many people think what is happening now is different somehow?

Skinner gets so worked up about the Holocaust (hysterical about the historical, to steal a phrase from G Gordon Liddy).

I wish he had just a small amount of that same passion about the racist slaughter that we are wreaking right now, today, and even more tomorrow.

You must realize that this particular kind of demonization was what the Holocaust was all about, that's how it was all allowed to happen in the first place.

"Never again" used to mean something more than "next time, let's make sure it's not the Jews that are targeted for anhilation."

Sorry, but that's how I was raised.

[krispos42]

419. That is true, however...

the point that the Iranian president was making was that the Holocaust was not the fault of the Palestinians, but of the Germans. Yet the Palestinians were being punished for the sins of the Germans.

He used the conditional "if the Holocaust happened" during the interview, but the primary focus was not if the Holocaust was a lie, but who was being punished for its happening in the first place.

It's simplistic, of course. The Palestinian situation deteriorated with each attempt by the Arab powers to invade and destroy Israel. And the history of Palestine and the surrounding region is complicated and convoluted.

[EFerrari]

349. That's what I mean by dancing around the issue.

You're interpretation is reasonable but that's one of the ways these people insinuate their poison, by seeming "reasonable" when they are no such thing. And, I bet he doesn't speak in this same way at home.

It's like the difference between that Jena school administrator on Goodman's show and how he likely speaks in private among friends. "He looked like such a nice man."

[harun]

364. I guess I just have a hard time believing anyone actually

thinks down deep the holocaust didn't happen. Anyone who has worked in an organization knows how difficult it is for one person to do anything. For there to actually have been an orchestrated group of people who made up the holocaust is absurd.

I think the people here that are saying he is a denier are really saying he is not sympathetic to a state of Israel being created because of the holocaust. Which in my opinion is a little different but I don't think to them it is.

[EFerrari]

378. It is hard to believe that anyone could assert such a thing.

And we just watched him say there were no gay people in Iran, remember? And that women enjoyed freedom and were happy. These statements are not on par with Holocaust denial but do show this is a person who has no trouble denying the suffering of others.

[sir_captain]

386. A fine point

You can take a look at my post right below yours for some commentary on the conference that i'm sure you would agree makes this "question" rather clear.

[EFerrari]

415. If you don't know about the phenomena as a phenomena,

(i.e.,these deniers), those two stories would be shocking and revolting but you wouldn't necessarily in isolation come to the conclusion: Holocaust denier without knowing that was a category in the first place. Because his statements are coded -- notice, the editor at al Jazeera registers that he's speaking in code by putting that kind of language in quotation marks?

Bigots are manipulative. They have to be to pass as human beings. And their language is a very powerful tool they use to manipulate their audience.

/oops

[sir_captain]

385. I am sorry sir, but you are simply incorrect

and it would not take much time for you to discover this on your own. Just one small example from the BBC report on the conference. And yes, I know that there were a bunch of nutbag fundamentalist jewish splinter groups there who did not deny the holocaust's existence, so we don't really need to cover that.

"In a recorded address broadcast to the nation, President Ahmadinejad questioned why the West would not allow "any investigation" into the Holocaust.

Mr Ahmadinejad has repeatedly downplayed the extent of the Holocaust, describing it as a myth used to justify the existence of Israel and oppression of the Palestinians. He has called for Israel to be dismantled."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6167695.stm

Here's some stuff from Al Jazeera, for god's sake:

"The two-day conference hosted Western "revisionists" who doubt that the slaughter of six million Jews in World War II took place.

On the second and final day of the conference, Ahmadinejad announced that the conference had decided to set up a "fact-finding commission" to determine whether the Holocaust had happened of not.

He said the commission will "help end a 60-year-old dispute" and called on Western governments "not to harrass members of this commission and allow them to carry out more research and make all issues transparent"

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/11372A84-1E7B-400C-9B16-298CDDBDC5CD.htm

[Richard Steele]

34. When was that even in question? It's well-known that he is. nm

[Truthiness Inspector]

36. Thank you for a much needed reminder.

It's too bad it was necessary, but it was. Excellent, concise post. Right on the mark.

K & R

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. HOWEVER....

an awful lot of people seem to be conducting "two-minute hates" about him, and it's an uncomfortably short leap from there to thinking that it's okay to invade Iran.

As JCMach1, who lives in the United Arab Emirates and knows people from all over the Middle East, has stated, the picture is more complex than "Ahmedinejad is a bad guy."

I recommend that everyone who has been participating in the two-minute hates take a few minutes to reflect on the sins of our own country and follow it up with a viewing of some Iranian movies, so that you can see that it's not just faceless "nut jobs" living there but real people with real lives.

I especially recommend "The Lizard," which unlike many Iranian films, is quite entertaining.

[Truthiness Inspector]

39. I think I see part of the problem

and that is equating Ahmadinejad with the Iranian people. Apples and oranges.

The Iranian people are not the problem, Ahmadinejad and his positions/rantings are.

I think most DUers are smart enough to recognize that distinction.

[ronnie624]

333. Unfortunately, in the minds of most Americans,

Ahmadinejad is the embodiment of the Iranian people, and it is he, who most Americans will see as our missiles strike their Iranian targets.

And Ahmadinejad is a problem for no one, except perhaps the Iranian people, because his powers are very limited and he does not control the Iranian military. But Iran has never made a habit of perpetrating aggressions against other countries anyway.

Ahmadinejad will probably be replaced within two years. Who then, will take his place as the target of our righteous outrage?

[Warren DeMontague]

68. If it's a short leap, DU doesn't seem terribly interested in making it.

At least, not according to these numbers:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1903669

This idea that a desire to invade Iran is lurking under every criticism of Ahmedinejad isn't borne out by the facts. Overwhelmingly, the people here think war with Iran would be an exceptionally bad, shitty idea. Yet they seem to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time: To criticize him for his Holocaust Denial and his country's murdering of gay kids and still not be chomping at the bit for another ill-advised war.

Get it?

Frankly, the "you can't criticize Ahmedinejad because that means you want war/you're shilling for war/you're perpetuating a neo-con meme" line sounds to me like a tactic to try to shut people up, and not a very good one, either.

[Kelly Rupert]

70. It's the same bloody logic Bush used to use.

There's not a whole lot of difference between "Criticism of the government helps the terrorists!" and "Criticism of Ahmadinejad helps Bush!"

[MedleyMisty]

294. What about

"You can't discuss propaganda in the media because that means that you love Ahmedinejad and that you think that everyone who doesn't love him wants war."? That also sounds like a tactic to shut people up.

[Warren DeMontague]

352. It does. However, I haven't heard anyone say that. I have, however, heard people try to paper over

they guy's OWN record on the Holocaust, on Gays, etc. etc.

[LeftishBrit]

301. Yes. It reminds me a bit of "If you criticize Bush, you're supporting the terra-ists."

[ronnie624]

351. The problem isn't with DUers.

For the most part, the sort of people who gravitate to DU have a far greater awareness of the world than most Americans, thus are they less easily bamboozled by propaganda.

I'm not trying to stroke any egos here. I deal with hundreds of ordinary, working class Americans, every single day. I also read the comments of hundreds of ordinary DUers every day, and the difference is like night and day. Most Americans - God bless'em - are as dumb as dirt, when it comes to subjects like science, history and politics. Further, because of a neglectful system of education, they have no interest in such things. This makes them very susceptible to political propaganda.

Since most Americans receive their 'news' via occasional glances at CNN, MSNBC, and FOXNEWS, and the content of these sources is constantly filled with the vilification of Iran and its government - including the use of misinformation - it should be pretty obvious what the outcome will be.

The targets of this propaganda campaign are not DUers, who represent a tiny fraction of the US population. The targets are those, among whom, the administration must manufacture its support for war.

I find the vilification of Ahmadinejad disturbing, not because I think he is a good man, but because I recognize the current media frenzy for what it is: the manufacturing of consent for war by the elites of this country, for reasons which have nothing whatever to do with Jewish people or gays or justice or oppression or any of the other myriad reason we will hear as they let fly their missiles.

[Warren DeMontague]

357. But criticism of Ahmadinejad *on DU* is what this is all about.

I agree that if the media is stoking flames against the guy, there may be an ulterior motive, even if it's nothing more than distraction and "terra! terra! terra!" type agitation. I don't bother to watch Corporate, Cable "Newz" anymore, so I wouldn't know.

But that being the case, I think what is driving it right now has more to do with the fact that he had some well-publicized speaking engagements in this country, rather than anything to do with another "imminent" attack on Iran. (like the "imminent" attack we've been told was coming any week now, for over 2 years)

Frankly, I don't think war with Iran is imminent. I don't think it's going to happen. Even if the craziest of the crazies DO want it, they can't HAVE it, given the state our military is in. So I'm not going to lose a whole lot of sleep over it, yet.

I may be wrong. Let's both hope I'm right.

[ronnie624]

401. How fortunate we are

that Democratic Underground is insulated from the worlds problems.

[Warren DeMontague]

452. That's a totally nonsensical statement, as far as I can tell.

But if the gist of it is that I should stop calling Ahmadinejad a Theocatic Shitbag, sorry, no sale.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

210. I Hate David Duke And Pat Buchanan But I Don't Want To Invade Metarie , Louisiana, Or Maclean,

Virginia

[LittleClarkie]

216. To be fair, the Bush administration hasn't been banging the war drum

against those cities, has it.

Even so, I know what you were trying to get at.

[NashVegas]

240. Thanks

There's an amazing amount of noise:signal and I don't think people realize ...

I see all the 'two minute hates' you reference, in countless thread titles, and it sure looks like DU is ready to drop the bombs. I don't think people realize what it does.

[Dorian Gray]

263. The Persian culture is a fantastic culture.

I've read many books based there, travelogues about Iran, and I've known quite a few people of Persian descent.

I in no way liken them to their leaders (Ahmadinejad OR the Ayatollahs) than I liken the US people to Bush.

When I condemn Ahmadinejad's statements, it is solely that. I'm not banging a gong towards war. I am glad that people recognize that he is not the friend to progressives that only a week ago his former ties with Hugo Chavez would lead us to believe. He is nobody to hold up on a "pedestal" in his hatred for George Bush. I am happy that his bigotry is exposed so that there is no question that he will be a progressive role model. He can't be with his history of bigotry, and now it is exposed for all of us to see.

[LostinVA]

271. This "two-minute hate" meme is quite tiresome

Many people here have been against Ahmedinejad for a long time. It's not "two-minute hate." "Two-minute hate" is a meme that some here use in an attempt to diminish the very real concerns some people have.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

355. I was referring to the multitude of threads on the front pages

where all sorts of people were jumping in to declare that they hated Ahmedinejad as much as or more than everyone else. It was a band-wagon sort of thing.

It reminds me of the way hatred of Saddam Hussein was encouraged in 2002/2003 (and how many DUers actually supported the invasion of Iraq--a fact that they'd like to forget) and how all of a sudden the atrocities of the Taliban were publicized over the summer of 2001, even though they'd been in power since 1996 and the left had been trying to call attention to the CIA's support of them for years.

Given the patterns of the past six years, it is NOT paranoid to wonder if the Bushies are trying to prime the American people for an act of aggression against Iran.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. Thank You, Skinner. n/t

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

41. Thank you.

Sad that it had to be said. Thanks for saying it.

[pinto]

42. Kick.

[Prince Paul]

43. I don't think most of you even know what a holocaust denier is

Somebody that "denies" the holocaust isn't somebody who says it never happened it all. It's a purposely misleading term. A holocaust "denier" is somebody who questions the official account, that 6 million Jews were massacred because Hitler hated Jews. If you said that 10 million Jews were killed then technically you would be a holocaust denier.Ahmadenijad has clearly stated that the holocaust did in fact take place. But I'm glad to see DU turning into neocon central.

[Kelly Rupert]

47. I don't think I quite follow this here.

Are you suggesting that Ahmadinejad's denial that "6 million Jews were massacred because Hitler hated Jews," as you word it, is anything but dangerous, raving lunacy?

Edit: What the hell do neocons have to do with anything?

[KAZ]

51. I'm sorry, that's nuts. What does it have to do with Neocons?

And this is pretty fucked up also, "10 million Jews were killed then technically you would be a holocaust denier".

The figurehead from Iran seems to have you in a tither.

[backscatter712]

52. Now you're obfuscating...

Sorry, but first the deniers say the Holocaust did not happen, then when confronted with the mountains of evidence including films, photos, artifacts, first-hand stories, records, papers, etc. etc. etc. they turn around and say "Oh we didn't say it didn't happen, it just didn't happen they way they say it did."

Bullshit. Absolute fucking bullshit. If you're going to have any truck with neo-nazis, Ahmedinejad, or anyone else that tries to minimize the murder of 12,000,000 people, you can kindly fuck off and die in a fire. DU doesn't need that shit.

Thank you.

[blondeatlast]

278. Exactly. That's precisely how it works and I will not let it get the slightest foothold here

if I can help it.

Thank you.

[cali]

56. Wrong. That's misinformation

and frankly one has to wonder why someone would spread it. You've just made up your own little version of holocaust denial. Holocaust historians have revised, and continue to revise, aspects of "the official account" (that's a HD term right there) based on re-examination of extant information or new information.

No, someone who claimed that 10 million jews died would not be labeled a holocaust denier- ignorant of the figures perhaps, but not a denier.

Ahmadinejad has repeatedly denied the Holocaust Sometimes he dances around it. It depends who his audience is.

But you don't care about any of this. If you think that DU has been turned into "neocon central" (what is that really code for), maybe you'd be happier elsewhere.

[in_cog_ni_to]

60. Good grief.

:eyes: What a dumb ass post. Ahmadinejad also hosted David Duke at the Holocaust Denial Conference. Were you there?:eyes:

[Kelly Rupert]

62. Hey, man, for all you know

they were there to suggest that 10 million Jews were killed! :crazy:

[pinto]

78. holocaust denial in Ahmadinejad's own words:

December 14, 2005

"Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets … This is our proposal: give a part of your own land in Europe, the United States, Canada or Alaska to them so that the Jews can establish their country."
(Speaking to thousands of people in the Iranian city of Zahedan)

December 8, 2005

"Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces.... Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, our question for the Europeans is: Is the killing of innocent Jewish people by Hitler the reason for their support to the occupiers of Jerusalem? If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe -- like in Germany, Austria or other countries -- to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe."

(While speaking to reporters at an Islamic summit in Mecca)

http://www.adl.org/main_Anti_Semitism_International/ahmadinejad_words.htm

[Seabiscuit]

259. These are the kinds of quotes I was hoping the OP would have provided.

In the first one, there's no actual denial of the existence of the Holocaust, just the use of the word "myth" which refers to the suffering of the Jews as the mythical justification for the establishment of the state of Israel.

The second contains the phrase, "Although we don't accept this claim" w/r/t European countries saying "Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces". Whether or not he's disputing whether it happened at all or whether he's disputing the numbers involved, it's still a denial. Again, however, he returns to his primary point, that even if the European claim is true, why should the Palestinians, who had nothing to do with Hitler, have to pay for it with their land and their lives?

I find that latter main point rather important, as it is a well stated summary of how the muslim world views Israel.

[nebenaube]

384. to be fair...

I've lived in other countries and semantics are often loose within translations; regardless of the first language of the speaker...

The Third Reich did not kill anyone in the furnaces (that is if you don't count flame-throwers or incindiary devices). I'm not denying the Holocaust here, No one can deny Hitler's purge of german society (and occupied lands) of the mentally disabled, homosexual, communist and jewish peoples of those lands. IIRC, The six million jews either died from being shot, being beaten to death, interrogation and torture, gases in the fumigation "showers", malnutrition and/or disease in the camp barracks or by cruel medical research experiments. The furnaces themselves were just a disposal method.

[Seabiscuit]

411. Good points. Translation does appear to be a serious issue when attempting

to assess the man's words.

[cboy4]

177. Your post indicates one should never underestimate the

stupidity of DUers on any given day.

[BootinUp]

206. Don't go away mad, just go away. n/t

[slackmaster]

234. Correct. Holocaust denier is generally a dysphemism for a historical revisionist

Like David Duke, or his good buddy Mr. Ahmadinejad. They are cut from the same cloth. Their statements about the Holocaust seem to be very much in agreement.

[BootinUp]

237. ok,

we are all in agreement, but it doesn't help me understand why the above poster likes to question DU'ers intelligence in this thread.

[Dorian Gray]

264. Absolute malarky!

[coalition_unwilling]

337. A "Holocaust denier is somebody who questions the official account,"

and specifically, the official count of victims?

Which scholar (Lucy Davidowicz, Raul Hilberg or other scholar) has set up the official 6-million count that now constitutes Holocaust orthodoxy? And who decided that a "Holocaust denier" is someone who doesn't deny that the Nazis
marshaled the entire machinery of the state to the destruction of European and world Jewry but who does question the so-called official count?

I think a "Holocaust denier" should mean (if it does not already do so ) someone who denies that the Nazi regime marshaled the entire machinery of the state after the 1941 Wannsee Conference to the destruction of an ethnic subgroup within its borders solely on the basis of ethnicity. It should not extend to people who might simply question the so-called official count and the methodology used to arrive at it.

But I'm no expert on "Holocaust denial" so maybe I'm missing something here.

[ShaneGR]

45. Thank you...

Finally reality speaks out.

[question everything]

48. And, he suppresses free expression of ideas

and persecutes special groups, like homosexuals.

He should not be praised by any liberals, even if he attacks Bush.

And, no, his loathsomeness is not an excuse to invade Iran, it should not be part of that discussion. If we nuke them or invade them, it will not be because of suppression of human rights in Iran.

[Babsbrain]

50. Suppressing free expression of ideas?

[ShaneGR]

54. Try to go to Iran and speak your mind publicly

See what happens.

[Babsbrain]

57. I was referring to this thread.

Isn't it just a little hypocritical that a thread condemning a nation for lack of free speech is in itself a supression of free speech?

If the Iranians or freepers were reading this they would have a lot of ammunition re: hypocrisy.


note: Thoughts on this post are the opinions of the individual who posts them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

[in_cog_ni_to]

65. It's not hypocrisy to refuse HATE SPEECH posted on a Progressive message board.

Geezus.

[ShaneGR]

69. Since when do Liberal blogs/boards support hate speech?

Seriously?

[Babsbrain]

89. You must be kidding.

I have read more hate on this thread than I hear on Fox in a month.

Look to your own society before trying to condemn another.

[Kelly Rupert]

92. Apparently you cannot tell the difference between

"disgust" and "hate."

Hint: Minimizing the premeditated attempt to murder every living Jew is hate.
Hint: Claiming that the above is hateful is not.

[LittleClarkie]

113. How about righteous indignation

Some things are worth being angry about.

[Dorian Gray]

266. Who is condemning a whole society?

There is condemnation for Ahmadinejad. He does NOT equal Iran or Persian culture.

[cali]

82. considering the post you wrote the other day about "Jewish

Influence" being bad for America, it's hardly surprising to see you whining about this under the guise of defending free speech. Guess what? No hypocrisy. It's a private board with rules. You can be bounced for saying any number of things. And Holocaust denial is hate speech.

Get a grip. I'm know there are other boards where you can more freely express your opinion.

[Babsbrain]

98. I stand by my statement

Look at PNAC and AIPAC. It would be ridiculous to assume all Jews have a negative effect on our country. But there are a disproportionate number in government, in the media and in business who are pushing America to its 'final solution.'

If we do not pursue diplomatic solutions, and if we attack Iran, we will be opening Pandoras Box. Everyone, Republican and Democrat should be working feverishly to put a lid on this situation instead of beating the drum. Civilization depends on our keeping our cool right now.

[Kelly Rupert]

108. So...you'd say we have a Jewish Problem, then?

If I had mod powers, this thread would look like Arlington.

[Warren DeMontague]

156. Maybe not so much a "problem"

as an "infestation"? :eyes: :sarcasm:

[cboy4]

184. "...would look like Arlington." BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Now that's fricken hilarious, not to mention very clever.

[cali]

118. Jews in business, media and the gov't are pushing America to it's "final solution"?

You really are a bigoted, anti-semitic piece of work. Stormfront is perfect for you.

[DancingBear]

265. Leaping to conclusions again, are we?

Say, why don't you post some more out-of-context Cole quotes and "interpret" them for us?

That is, after all, what you are good at. I mean, look at your header.

That, and calling anyone you don't agree with an anti-Semite.

Would you know anyplace else that does that?

I'll bet you would.

<fade to black - I've no interest in your agenda anymore>

[cali]

379. Chew on this

In the time I've been here I've actually only called 4 people anti-semitic. And if you can't see that post as hateful and bigoted, you're just blind to hate.

As for an agenda, you're right. I have one. I see someone post something anti-muslim, I'll call them on it in strong terms. Racist? Same thing. Homophobic? Go away. Anti-semitic? Yep, I'll call someone on it if I see it, and I damned straight will not be intimidated by idiotic insinuations that I, on my little Vermont hilltop, have some dark "agenda".

I can only hope you'll soon join the poster you're defending?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

393. Please Tell Me You're Not Defending This Statement

"It would be ridiculous to assume all Jews have a negative effect on our country. But there are a disproportionate number in government."

And the person who made it was tombstoned.

[Freddie Stubbs]

521. Tombstoned!

http://imgred.com/

[KAZ]

138. Whoa! Who decides what's "disproportionate"? I haven't been ...

... following those threads, but that's a dangerous statement. Your last paragraph is spot on, but I don't understand "disproportionate" and "final solution". At least, I hope I don't.

[piesRsquare]

145. Alerted n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

154. Hey-ooo! A "disproportionate number (of Jews) in government, media & business"?

That's the biggest crock of anti-semitic shit I've seen anyone write in a while!

Congratulations.

Or something. :eyes:

[cali]

169. and this post has been repeatedly

alerted. An angry post of mine to this person was (rightfully) deleted
but this stays up to pollute the thread. Not that there aren't at least 6 or 7 others in competition with it, although not quite as blatant.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

230. The Problem With Deleting A Thread Is It Makes The Responses Unintelligible

eom

[Dorian Gray]

268. I think it should stay up

to display the bigotry of the poster. That way we won't forget his/her words on the subject and can not take their opinion on ME affairs seriously.

[eridani]

163. I'd say that most Jews probably don't approve of AIPAC, and even more dislike PNAC n/t

[sir_captain]

183. This is probably the most disgusting post I have

ever read on DU. And that's saying a lot.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

209. "But there are a disproportionate number in government, "

Maybe we should have a quota....

Somebody needs to tell Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein, Frank Lautenberg, Ron Wyden, Herb Kohl, Chuck Schumer, , Carl Levin, and Russ Feingold there are too many of them...

How many Jews are in the Senate?

Eleven or so... That's eleven percent...

They are two percent of the population ...

They have exceeded their quota...

And we didn't even get to medicine, the media, or academia...

Oy vey...

Maybe we can resurrect the Nuremberg Laws; here!!!

:sarcasm:

[LeftishBrit]

255. But you didn't mention the WORST thing!

'How many Jews are in the Senate? Eleven or so... That's eleven percent...They are two percent of the population ...They have exceeded their quota...'

But that's not ALL! 22% of the senators who opposed the IWR were Jewish (I found this out when checking on a post that was ALMOST as ridiculous as the one we're replying to)! Twice as many as you'd expect from their actual number! That's REALLY exceeding the quota! Yes, those eeevil Jews are really THE warmongers all right!

more :sarcasm:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

398. Plus

As a group Jews were more opposed to the war, according to survey data, than the general population...

[onenote]

246. "disproportionate number" - Care to back that up with some facts?

[rockymountaindem]

247. Why don't you fuck right off

and go hang with your buddies at Stormfront?

[LeftishBrit]

252. I'm beginning to think that your username is quite appropriate!

'a disproportionate number' of Jews in 'government, in the media and in business who are pushin America to its 'final solution''??? WTF? Where do you get your info? You mean Jews like Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice in government, and Rupert Murdoch in the media????

'If we do not pursue diplomatic solutions, and if we attack Iran, we will be opening Pandoras Box. Everyone, Republican and Democrat should be working feverishly to put a lid on this situation instead of beating the drum. Civilization depends on our keeping our cool right now.'

I fully agree with you on all THAT; and scapegoating any ethnic group won't help. Whether it's Jews, Iranians, or any other group.

[Dorian Gray]

267. Wow...

I hope that the mods DON'T delete your words so that your bigotry will be displayed for all at DU to read. "It would be ridiculous to assume all Jews have a negative effect on our country. But there are a disproportionate number in government, in the media and in business who are pushing America to its 'final solution.'"

What is this 'final solution' of which you speak? Really?

[blondeatlast]

281. Exactly--and I WON'T put the poster on "ignore". I want to clean up after they spew... nt

[blondeatlast]

280. Your bigotry is duly noted. I don't need to Ignore you to ignore you.

Bye now. See you oin the boards, I just won't give you the attention of replying.

[BadgerLaw2010]

354. Babsbrain has been Tombstoned.

[asthmaticeog]

353. OH NOES ITS TEH JOOOOOOOOOS!

[MADem]

115. Well said! nt

[KAZ]

114. I agree with Babs on the speech issue, though this thread

trends dangerously toward the I/P dungeon. I was taken aback by Skinner's post. I probably don't know him as well as the rest you, but I guess I expected a higher degree of articulation. FWIW.

[BadgerLaw2010]

248. Private message board, no free speech.

[KAZ]

58. Flew right over their head. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

72. No it didn't. She/he posted in response to "question everything's" post...not to Skinner's.

Nothing flew over anyone's head because the response made no sense since she/he posted in the wrong place.

[Babsbrain]

80. I posted it where it belonged.

[KAZ]

88. Flew right over &*_&*&_*&_*&'s head too!

Just kidding! Love you DUeples!

[MADem]

102. Big difference between "ideas" and a "big fucking lie."

Ideas are fine, but we don't have to put up with bullshit and falsehoods.

[KAZ]

55. What Liberals are praising him? n/t

[ShaneGR]

59. I dont think praising is the right word, more like blind defense...

A lot of quotes posted here that people like, while ignoring what they may not like (which is about 90% of what he says). I think a lot of people are so caught up in their hatred of Bush (I hate him too) that they lose sight of their true principles sometimes, it's understandable. The other issue is the fear that we're gonna end up in a war with Iran too. Personally I don't think that will happen because we just don't have the troops available to sustain it.

[KAZ]

81. OK, I see your point, and I agree.

I think it's mostly your 3rd sentence. Folks feel like they're getting played again by the Chimp, dangling this toothless bogeyman before us. Someone who would have probably been gone by now if not for our constant demonization, and diplomatic bungling. A-man is playing for one audience, and we give him the lines.

[eridani]

164. We've got lots of planes and bombs, though

There will never be a ground invasion.

[question everything]

73. DUers

that I think are liberals.

Both he and Chavez earn accolades on these pages because they "stand up" to Bush.

And as others have been saying here in the past few days: the enemy of my enemy is not my friend, but this holds true for Ahmedinejad and for Chavez.

[cboy4]

180. Exactly!!!! "If we nuke them or invade them,

it will not be because of suppression of human rights in Iran." -- question everything

[txaslftist]

No, but his "loathesomeness" will give lots of people a reason to shut up.

When the bombs start falling.

[yardwork]

433. Nonsense. The only people protesting the bombs on Afghanistan

were the same people who stand up for human rights all over the world, day after day after day. When most of the country was cheering bushco as they bombed Afghanistan, who were the very few who protested?

[txaslftist]

445. You just made my point.

"The very few who protested"

There will always be a "very few" of us who protest. They don't care about a "very few" protestors; what they want to avoid is a repeat of "very many" protestors, like in the Vietnam daze. Bush inadvertently revealed a popular neocon fantasy, that we could have "won" Vietnam if we'd just stuck it out. The idea of Ahmadinejad as the new Hitler will keep a lot of folks on the fence or indoors when we attack Iran.

They aren't striving for unanimity, just manageable dissent. They will sell the next war as "preventing a nucular holocaust" and a lot of people will buy into that.

It has nothing to do with nukes or holocausts or anything like that, and everything to do with hegemony over oil.

[yardwork]

451. I'm not going to pretend that somebody is not a human rights violator!

What you are suggesting is that everyone hurt by Iran's policies should just keep their mouths shut. Sorry. I'm not going to do it, and I'm not going to be bullied by people who think that the right-wing gives a rat's ass whether I shut up or not.

I'm not shilling for war, and it's an insult to suggest it, so knock it off.

[Usrename]

515. Sure, you are shilling for a war.

Haven't you been paying attention for the last six years?

What in the world do you think all of this demonizing of Iran is all about?

But maybe when the bombs fall you can still sleep peacefully, if you pretend that you're just a patriotic American speaking out about the evil threat from Iran.

Who's human rights are being violated by whom? Well I guess that isn't really an important question when you can just demonize an entire people and then anhilate them like Iraq, instead.

Human rights violators.

[txaslftist]

524. I'm not asking you to "pretend". Just think.

Consider the source of the accusations against him and what they might stand to gain or lose by making them. Consider their objectivity and their motives.

Like: "He's threatened to wipe Israel off the map"

This has been debunked and is simply not true. He has predicted the demise of the "regime" or government in Israel; and he supports a one-state solution in Israel where everyone has the same rights, whether Jewish or not. He also supports the end of Israel as a "Jewish" state; not the end of the Jews in Israel, but the end of their "exceptionalism" among other citizens there.

Who gains by portraying him as a madman who wants to inflict a second holocaust?

Like: "He kills homosexuals" or "he denies the existence of homosexuals".

As to the first, the mullahs and islamic courts kill homosexuals, and there have to be four witnesses to the homosexual act. This is an ass-backwards, regressive society, and that's what you get with fundamentalists. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Egypt and the Yemens do the same thing. It's a different culture. As to his comments about "we don't have homosexuals in Iran", what he was saying was that in Iran homosexuality is not openly practiced, not that there are none.

And finally, I didn't say YOU were shilling for war. What I said was that the folks who ARE shilling for war are selling you this crap and you are buying it without critical examination. They don't care about Imadinnerjacket or human rights or any of that crap. What they care about is getting at the oil and strategic positioning, and they don't care how many of your brothers and sisters in uniform die so they can get it. And they don't care about how much money your grandkids have to pay off in debt, either.

[orleans]

53. (shit! did i miss something around here again? how come all the

good stuff happens when i'm not looking?)

and imo--HE'S CRAAAZZZYYYYYY!

[Flabbergasted]

90. Did you get your $10,000 check from Skinner? Everyone else did.

[orleans]

139. damn! i'd better call him first thing in the morning and see where mine is!

(and thanks for the laugh!)

[MatrixEscape]

61. Since when,

did the idea of free speech ever include the right to denigrate or subjugate anyone for a denial or support of any historical, scientific, or religious tenet?

You affirm and deny many things in your day to day life. It was supposed that just the fact of being an American that if people did not agree what what you thought or had to say, they would still defend to the death your right to say it.

We are treading now in dangerous waters when we want to go with official, party lines and base our judgments on people with the kind of criteria that, if applied to ourselves, would damn us over and over and get us tossed in one of those new camps being prepared for those who do not think like they should.

Sorry, this thread lost my respect and support when you chose to take sides on a point of historical views, no matter how wrong and right they may be. I am shocked and downtrodden that an admin would make such a radical and prejudiced remark, and I have administrated and moderated many forums over the years with all the pros and cons and ups and downs that goes with it.

Well, showing your true face is better than pretending to be what you are not. I guess that is the positive side of this.

[ShaneGR]

66. Take sides on a point of historical views

What side is there, whether you believe the holocaust happened? Guess what, it did, at least six million jews died. Did I just lose your respect too? good.

[MatrixEscape]

77. Good for you, and I respect that.

Have you looked into the far greate numbers of people that have died in other travesties that even transcend that number and yet, are not a major issue and would hardly rattle your cage if someone were to formally deny them?

[ShaneGR]

83. What's your point? That the holocaust is no big deal?

Is that what you're trying to say? That because a lot more have died in say, Africa, I shouldn't care so much about that many jews dying? I mean, what's six million really? Not that many in your eyes?

[Kelly Rupert]

87. I don't think you quite understand the difference.

The Holocaust was a genocide, not just any mass disaster. A genocide. And frankly, denial of any genocide is hate speech. I would feel the same way of a Turk who denied his nation's massacre of Armenians.

[Kelly Rupert]

67. Wait...did you just seriously, in all honesty, call

disgust with Holocaust denial "radical and prejudiced?" Let's see...yes, yes you did. You suggested we had no right to denigrate or "subjugate" Mahmoud Ahmadinejad for denying the Holocaust, and called condemning Holocaust denial "radical and prejudiced."

...wow.

Sir, with all due respect, I would not want your respect.

[MatrixEscape]

93. Free though and free speech escape you then!

You have an open and free mind that allows others to think as they do, (and segregate them from their actions) or you do not.

You either act like a religious fanatic who would want to use freedom of speech to destroy it and turn that which gives them the rights to express those ideas into a theocracy, or you understand that freedom of speech is not a TOOL for YOU to use to control the thoughts and ideas and expressions of others, no matter how you think and feel about them.

Whatever someone has to lay on the table, verbally and mentally, at least I can see that it is all a form of abstraction that is subject to inspection and consideration and certainly not concrete, (as a blow to the head is) at all.

I will suggest and imply what I will and you will infer and react as you will. Now, does your right to respond that way give you any right to tell anyone, with authority and censure, what they can think and say? If you live in nothing but the non-existent mind and can't even see its connections and how it works, then you certainly are going to be a table-top warrior who is adept at being offended, over-reacting, and more prone to intolerance than the people you chose to despise for their contradictions and questions of what is considered fact.

[ShaneGR]

96. I just read your post 10 times... and I have no idea what you're trying to say...

Are you a parody poster or something?

[Kelly Rupert]

104. What he's trying to say is,

"I took Intro to Western Thought. It was awesome. We read some John Locke and I sort of understood it I think? I got a B. I don't think I'll be taking it next year, though; like, it kind of pissed me off when the TA would criticize my papers. I mean, who is she to tell me what to think?"

[LittleClarkie]

119. Ah

A three-credit expert.

[piesRsquare]

151. OMG--LOL! n/t

[blondeatlast]

282. That sums up an awful lot of the radical chic thinking of this board and oh, yeah--

I nominate you for a DUzy.

:rofl:

[9119495]

318. He is unaware that not all opinions are equal.

Everyone has a right to an opinion, but some opinions are stupid and should be abandoned. He thinks all opinions are equal. I've seen it before.

[Kelly Rupert]

101. Look, buddy.

Yeah, yeah, you're a skeptic, free mind, took-PHIL1001-and-1002-but-haven't-quite-gotten-to-2001-yet type. Get the fuck off your cross.

Nobody is telling you how to think. Nobody is doubting your right to say completely ignorant, hateful things. The flipside of this is that you are not allowed to tell people not to call your ramblings hate speech.

[leftynyc]

222. Obviously you're so open minded

your brains have fallen out (and I never thought I'd have opportunity to use that trite phrase)

[Desertrose]

311. Thanks, Matrix Escape, I get it.

Its not really THAT hard to comprehend.

Free thought for not only yourself but for others as well. If you don't like how they think, don't think that way yourself, but realize it is thier right to hold thier own thoughts.


DR

[Bryan Sacks]

421. I get it, too. Glad you said it. n/t

[MatrixEscape]

71. And just before ...

Skinner tombstones me for doing what he, as any Admin know, should probably not have done if he knew what he was doing, especially under the moniker of "Democratic Underground", (which may be becoming a misnomer) I would have to pull a Chomsky on this thread ans say that I stand by it wholeheartedly, weather I like it or not:

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don't believe in it at all."
-Noam Chomsky

The users here can decide on this situation using their own, critical thinking. I think Skinner make a big Admin mistake and should not only apologize,(since there is good money to be made running DU) but clarify and expound on his mistake and why it is both counterproductive and contrary to the ideas that the site is supposed to foment.

[ShaneGR]

74. This site isn't really for holocaust deniers...

So ya, bye. I hear Mel Gibson's dad is starting a new music board, you should join.

[Kelly Rupert]

79. Here's a few little bits of information you ought be aware of.

1. Holocaust denial is hate speech.
2. Hate speech is not protected.
3. Denouncing hate speech is not a violation of free speech.
4. Nobody is claiming M.A. does not have the right to say what he says, so stuff your Chomsky quotes.
5. We're saying that it's hate speech. Quit defending it.

[MatrixEscape]

111. Good then we have it out in the open.

Newspeak is Newthink.

You cannot think or say anything that does not comply with the above five points, no mater how wrong or right it may be.

In fact, if you speak out about those points, you will be automatically considered a sympathizer with the party that is being repressed and opposed because ideas and thoughts are being confused with deeds and actions in the physical world.

I am defending nothing but free speech and ideas. You are defending the denial and repression of such.

You obviously are so lost in thought that you cannot distinguish between thought and action and, as you might reckon, there is absolutely no point in arguing anything with someone who is bereft of that capacity. There is a huge difference and maybe you should learn about it before you cast your stones of inconsiderate scorn and admonition.

Oh, yeah, this is Amerika. You do what you are told and don't think twice. Sorry.

[Kelly Rupert]

117. Free speech is not even remotely challenged here.

Nobody is challenging free speech. Nobody is suggesting that anyone ought not be allowed to say or think anything. What we are saying is that Holocaust denial is hate speech.

Despite the fact that you are undoubtedly a precious little snowflake, free speech does not actually require everyone to approve of your every idea and thought.

[LittleClarkie]

199. So do you think that use of words like "nigger" should also be protected as free speech

and not prohibited on this site?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

221. What Would Happen

What would happen if some yahoo made the argument on DU that slavery was a benign institution because it brought salvation to Africa via Christianity and eventual liberty for the slaves that were forecfully brought to America?

[greyl]

86. No DU admin is saying Ahmadinejad has no right to express his denial of the Holocaust.

If you ever try to pull a Chomsky again, better make sure it's loaded.

[in_cog_ni_to]

91. If this stifles your free speech, you are free to leave. It's Skinner's message board.

No one is forcing you to stay and post. There are many, many, many forums on the Internets where Holocaust Denial is welcome. Why not go find one of those if you're so unhappy here?

[MatrixEscape]

99. You bleed for whom?

You imply I am free to leave and yet, this is not Democratic Underground now, but it is Skinner's Message Board. Why do so many people send so much money in the form of donations to support Skinner's message, then? Is THAT what you are implying?

I did not say that I deny or accept the "holocaust". Yet, you put those words into my mouth. That sounds like a religious fanatic to me, not a clear or concise, intellectual premise at all.

Why don't you go find a forum where people don't say things that make you want to tell them to go find a forum where they can say things that don't offend your sensitive and thoughtless nature, then?

Nobody exists in order to be subject to your ideas, sensibilities, or beliefs, no matter how true or errant they might actually be. How can you imagine that you can imply that myself or anyone else is subject to your own abstractions?

[Timex]

106. The Irony is...

With all the opposition against your statements right now, doesn't it make you feel like Ahmadinejad himself?

[MatrixEscape]

126. No, it give me a strong sense of sadness.

To the point where I, like Winston Smith, learn to love you all and humbly express a previous retraction of my thought-criminal statements that only served as a brutal assault here on what I now acknowledge as Skinner's Message Board, (must remember that) for great profits.

I love you all and agree that my thought crimes are despicable and inexcusable in every way. I was wrong! Very wrong! Just as the person you are throwing your righteous, verbal stones at, is so very, very wrong, and dangerous, and must be censored, instantly hated, and berated for his blasphemy to everything we all are very certain is correct and true by way of our great leaders, over time immemorial by way of our media and education!

I can can only ask that you all, in your great and vital righteousness, be somehow forgiving in the sense that I have been so weak as to stray from what you know to be true and stand by to the death! My infection into the collective is an abomination and I certainly deserve your ridicule and scorn forever and ever. I have been very bad and my thoughts need your kind tolerance, adjustments and purging, as does that abject and vile pig you speak of here with all due rights. To think that I became such a willing pawn that I would even consider granting a right to speak or think to such a reprehensible being. The right to speak and think is not the same as the duty to think and speak as you should. I shall mend my ways in order to appease, you my righteous breatheren, for you have spoken!

And the religious right are different in what ways? It seems like the same thing with different, designer clothing on it, in this case.

Now for a shot of Victory Gin with bitters. I move my chess piece as I watch the screen. The "Democratic" part is about what the Status Quo decides, we see. The "Underground" part is what is beneath the surface of intents, not that which works to buc the system a it stands. That part comes out into full view in rare threads like these. All hail revelations!

[Kelly Rupert]

130. Perhaps you will understand a bit of math?

(FAILURE TO APPROVE OF THE CONTENT OF A PERSON'S SPEECH) ≠ (A VIOLATION OF THEIR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH)

[MatrixEscape]

136. Is that oneupmanship that you approve of?

Good for you.

I have apologized and stand abject and miserable in your midst. If you need to cast more stones, then I certainly deserve it for not understanding the very nature of this venue.

Can you have empathy for such a fool that I am?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

219. "Can you have empathy for such a fool that I am?"

Yes, but empathy is not the same as countenance.

[blondeatlast]

284. I'd prefer it if you'd just stand downwind, thanks. nt

[in_cog_ni_to]

135. "And the religious right are different in what ways?" Now we're the same as the religious right

because we think hate speech is unacceptable? WOW....was that a leap! :rofl:


{b}"It seems like the same thing with different, designer clothing on it, in this case." Riiiiiight.:eyes:


Oh, by the way...I just adored your little drama queen diatribe! ROTFLMAO!

[MatrixEscape]

143. Don't worry yourself there!

Not only do I retract and totally apologize for every statement I have made in this thread, I apply that to EVERY post I have ever made here to date going back to the days when Skinner's Message Board started.

I am a drama queen. My points make no sense at all. You should laugh at me like those people who live out of cars and in back alleys because, well, they deserve it and you don't.

Have fun playing your mind games forever. At least I see that I am very wrong for being here, posting, and responding to anything at all. I am not welcome and you are good at making that clear.

There are sites that don't burn their witches and even uphold them and implore them to supply a a bit of Yin to the prevailing Yang. Like most defectors from DU, (and you know there are a lot of them) I am really inspired to totally give up now. My thanks! That means no more worthless and nonsensical posts from this aspect of the phenomenon.

I was wondering if I should bother anymore, but becoming a thought criminal in a place with the name this site carries says it all to me. And what is most obvious is following the money. When it comes to incomes here, most of you are in a bracket that makes you compliant while those of us who don't have anything to defend concerning numbers, are a very small minority. The Democracy here is still in the bucks, just like Skinner who manages to get you to donate to his income and pension in the name of, what?

[in_cog_ni_to]

153. *Yawn*

:boring::eyes:

I willingly donate to DU every quarter......because it's the best message board on the net and, like I've said in previous posts, if you don't like it, leave.

[MatrixEscape]

171. That is a sad self-indictment.

You don't Goggle around or get out much, it seems.

To each his own!

If you don't like your narrow mind, how could you manage to leave it? What would give you even a remote chance to get out of abject ignorance, I wonder?

[in_cog_ni_to]

175. Abject ignorance?

Look in the mirror, hon. Anyone who supports hate speech is hardly an Einstein, but you do try hard to put on a good act.

Here, try this place....you'll LOVE it, I promise: www.stormfront.com

[MatrixEscape]

182. I find your reaction, hon, more hatful and reactive

than you might realize!

If this were a real, town square and you were talking to me right now and saying what you say, I would not call that love, baby!

I have already retracted my sinful remarks against your chosen and solidified viewpoints and yet, you want ME to look in YOUR mirror?

This is your place and you want me to go where? I was here when this started and your kind of reaction makes me see that denial and exclusion is more of the norm than open, free, thought, darlin'.

Sadly, our kind makes it clear that that Skinner's Message Board is becoming a culture club in a cult of personality more than it is a referendum for ideas, debate and, gosh forbid, facts.

Yes, you win. I will leave after all these years, thanks to closed-minded, strongly opinionated, culterally addicted and informed people like yourself. Yet, I have had my meaningful share of thank you PMS from a few people who had the sagacity to understand and respect that I humbly convey.

No more. You, like the right wing, can silence whom you choose to, based on your limited beliefs and largly manipulated viewpoints that you continue to cling to and love to call your own, sweets@!

DU, as SMB, is not a place for thought criminals. that is, especially when people only pretend that free thought and speech is important at all.

Look in the mirror, dear! You are correct! And like your right-wing opponents, that is easy to say to others, even if your mirror is buried under a pile of personal garbage. Yes, go look! Don't pretend or posture, but open your eyes and see.

[in_cog_ni_to]

189. Ah! You can dish it out, but you sure can't take it, can you?

Facts? I haven't seen you post one fact here tonight. All you've done is post ridiculous screeds against people who don't accept Mahmoud's hate speech. Whine, whine, whine because you don't feel the OWNER of DU should be able to make the rules. Well, guess what? Hate speech has never been accepted here and just because you have some twisted fantasy about Mahmoud not being who he appears to be, doesn't make it a fact. He's just as insane as the psycho-in-chief and shouldn't be idolized or supported on this Progressive message board which he has been for the last few days.

[MatrixEscape]

198. You win, greatest of minds!

Read my responses here and know that you, YES YOU, are a certain victor now.

Just what more do you want? You have convinced a user who was here from the very start of this site and a firm contributor and donator that the points being made are both ludicrous and a matter of nothing more than pure whining/

You post sounds like a Fascist, Nazi rant to me, but heck, you certainly know better, don't you?

If YOU don't understand words and their meanings, than that is not my fault, is it? You are clearly expressing that you are personally of the mind that the very words that describe the name of this site are nothing more than Newspeak. They say one thing, but your incredible and insightful remarks convey another.

When it comes to rather twisted fantasies, your screed is taking a cake that is made of stuff I would not care to eat.

This was never about who is right or wrong in the issue, it is about people like you who relate an expected, puppet-like, knee jerk response to what is being discussed. Are you able to think about that aspect of it and even respond in a non-straw-man-like ay to it while you bother to relate my personal opinions to facts, when I did not convey them as such?

[leftynyc]

224. Good God, you're boring (nt)

[Dorian Gray]

274. Does your self-inflicted martyrdom fuelled sarcasm

make you feel good? You're still not proving your point. None of your posts have been deleted. There is no censurship. Just disgust with idiotic opinions.

[Tigermoose]

317. Bingo!

"And the religious right are different in what ways? It seems like the same thing with different, designer clothing on it, in this case."

Some Voltaire quotes for you:

“Prejudices are what fools use for reason.”
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong”
“Judge a man by his questions rather than by his answers”

And finally, and my response to your insights:

“"Excellently observed," answered Candide; "but let us cultivate our garden”

[DemocratSinceBirth]

220. He Would Have To Countenance The Hanging Of Gay Children To Feel Like Mr. Ahmadinejad

eom

[in_cog_ni_to]

122. LOL.....it is Skinner's message board and if you don't like it here you are free to leave. NO ONE is

forcing you to stay. So why all the whining? People donate to DU because we enjoy this Progressive Message Board which is no place for hate speech.

Why don't you go find a forum where people don't say things that make you want to tell them to go find a forum where they can say things that don't offend your sensitive and thoughtless nature, then?

What an ignorant statement. You're the one who whined and complained about not being able to talk about Mahmoud and his hate speech. You are the one who thinks hate speech is appropriate here. Not me. SO, if you don't like Skinner's rule...LEAVE or stop whining.

FYI...I am about as far from a religious fanatic as one can get, so why don't you take your beliefs and leave if you're so offended?

[LittleClarkie]

146. You must be good at Twister

You pretzel up so nicely.

[Dorian Gray]

272. Skinner created DU

he and his administrators made the Terms of Service. He thinks Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier, and he's probably embarassed by the idiotic ramblings of the ADMITTEDLY FEW people who deny Ahmadinejad's denial. Hell, I'm embarassed by it, and nobody in my real life would know that I am associated with this board simply as a poster. His name is tied up with this board.



And HOW, praytell, would anybody be subject to anybody else's abstractions? That's just a bunch of hooey nonsense. :eyes:

[txaslftist]

336. "He's a holocaust denier" is PERFECT.

I've heard him say that he disputes various parts of the historical accounts of what happened; ie- the ovens, the gas chambers... I think he's wrong, because I think those things did happen. But I don't think I've ever heard him dispute the fact that millions of Jews were slaughtered by Hitler for being Jewish. Of course, the "holocaust as sacred text" folks dismiss him as a "holocaust denier" because of this.

It's really quite a perfect meme, though, to demonize him. The holocaust was an example of right-wing lunacy given free rein. Liberals, gays, socialists, communists, Jews and millions of other people from what would now be the "left" camp were slaughtered by what would now be the "right" camp.

Understand that the point is not to get those of us on the "left" to support air strikes or bombing Iran into the stone age or nuking them. The point is, as this initial post illustrates, to get us to shut up for a few hours. The point is to give the people who want to attack Iran some talking points. "You don't support our attack on Iran? You know their leader is a (gasp) holocaust denier! Are you anti-Semitic?"

"No, I'm anti war."

"Well, how can you support an anti-Semite who wants to repeat the holocaust?"

"I don't support him, I don't want his people killed..."

"Well, they shouldn't have elected him, then. What kind of liberal are you that you support an anti-Semitic holocaust denier who wants to kill all the Jews?"

"Well ... I ..."

"I've heard enough from you. Launch the bombers."

And Skinner, I'm a little disappointed in this thread. Not because of your outrage, but because you can't see this pro-war meme being developed by the same folks who brought us the Iracle.

[cali]

360. Actually, believe what you want, and not that it's important

in the long run, but he has questioned the numbers, he has denied it outright. It all depends who his audience is.

[EstimatedProphet]

403. DU

You imply I am free to leave and yet, this is not Democratic Underground now, but it is Skinner's Message Board. Why do so many people send so much money in the form of donations to support Skinner's message, then? Is THAT what you are implying?

DemocraticUnderground IS Skinner's message board. He built it. We came. Your donations pay for FEATURES, not management input.

[Moochy]

500. Your donations pay for FEATURES, not management input.

Therein lies the rub!

[Babsbrain]

107. I am waiting to hear what candidate to vote for.

[Trajan]

105. This commentary is so full of fallacy .....

First: the notion that Skinner runs DU for personal gain ... Obviously, he should gain from WORKING HIS ASS OFF to make this forum what it is ..... But WE know that this is a work of passion .... A calling from his own heart .... It goes beyond mere lucre ....

Second: The notion that we should embrace absolute 'Freedom Of Expression' on a personal website (Which DU is), even if those expressions may be hateful lies, is not a valid notion .... If this were the case, then even George Bush couldnt be kicked off this board ...... Get real ....

Third: It's 'Whether' .... NOT 'Weather' ....

Fourth: Still here ? .....

[MatrixEscape]

152. Pure conjecture and total bullshit in that respect!

I assume, grammar nazi, that you have never been a forum admin and moderator. I also assume that you are basing your vacuous conjectures on nothing more than guesses. Have you ever run a forum like I have? Have you ever been an administrator on them? If you can get thousands of people to donate money to your efforts, it is nothing near being a greeter at Wal-mart or many other jobs that you can, in your simple version of a knee jerk response to the World, imagine.

Assumptions are wonderful, easy, and, and practical, but they NEVER substitute for the reality. Don't tell me that Skinner, (thanks to the help of all of us who were here from the start and watch it go astray for cash) is in pain and eating out of dumpsters for what he hast to do in this profitable venture that also gets him connected with the "powers that be". Dare I remind you that following the money about this very site and its owners can get you and me canned just for posting it?

Things are never what they appear to be, and it is clear that a thought criminal like myself should be over at PI or some other site since I have nothing but fear an apology to deal with here.

[cali]

Yeah, and when skinner apologizes in your little parallel universe

he should also say that the holocaust really was a scam made up by the jews to collect a lot of loot.

What part of private board don't you get? There are lots of things you'll get tombstoned for here: espousing a wingnut pov is one, and oh yeah, HATE SPEECH is another.

As I suggested to another poster: Stormfront would be an appropriate place to express your opinions.

[MatrixEscape]

167. Whom, may I ask ...

Is Skinner, to decide on that issue, either way?

He is an Admin and really should act like one. That is, a provider of a forum as a service in an impartial way.

What part of that don't you get, since the lambasting of getting it is up your very ally? Hate speech could be considered a form of manipulation, if you were able to open your mind and consider its implications.

If I wanted to, and could, control you totally, I would certainly move from your real actions in the physical world to what you think and write and say. I would know that only your physical actions would have any natural impact on what is going on, but I would make sure that you would think and feel in a way that thoughts and words were like sticks and stones rather than names that would never really hurt anyone. I would be winning the Orwellian war over your mind if I could get you to react to what I have posted here in a ways that was somehow equal to a violent, physical act on you or those you love.

Congratulations. You have been an important part of a thought experiment. You live you your fictitious mind so much that you obviously seem to be unable to ascertain the difference between your physical organism and its concrete relationship with the World and the abstract realm of thoughts and ideas that are just as good as gods and demons and anything else you might reject about symbolic representation. Yet, you hold YOURS above the rest even though it has nothing to do with real, stark, concrete, connection with the natural world.

So, enjoy your cynical and jovial salvos that tamp down those like myself who might have had something to offer to you, (most likely in retrospect). Your shirts might not be brown, but you are wearing something significant that you cannot yet see, and it is clear that nobody like my humble little, thought criminal self, could ever point it out to you.

Enjoy!

[in_cog_ni_to]

190. Skinner OWNS DU. Get a damn clue. n/t

[MatrixEscape]

196. I want to thank all my dutiful detractors!

I finally have a very strong and supportive reason not to waste any more time posting here.

That is a good decision for both me and you. We all win! Yay!

The only thing that ever kept me responding and posting here were a handful of people that, out of the blue, would PM me with enlightened, thoughtful, and glowing responses. They were both encouraging and uplifting.

In this thread we see that free thought and speech, and any support for it, is subject to a censure, censorship, overreaction, and guilt by association. That is neither in the spirit of democracy or in the nature of underground.

You can now go on to belittle the fuck out of what I had to say and weave your deceptive webs about my meaning and intent, but it is clear that this is not a place to air anything of import or value that might equal any kind of meaningful, underground, change anymore. I thank you for making that crystal clear to me as a long-term and avid, donating, user of this site since its inception.

It is not shocking or uprising that the prevalent, corporate group-think would infest this place. That is what it is intended to do and you all show just how well that experiment is going, though you may not see yourselves as pawns in that game.

If you ever take the time to see the economic breakdown of who belongs to this site, they are mostly in the middle and upper classes and have their own, privileged rights and expectations to protect and convey. It seems that the less fortunate and downtrodden are either totally insane, or they have a very clear view of the inequities of this horrific system and could tell you all where the current, economic crises will send you, all ideas and conjectures about hate speech aside.

Despite your derision, I can only imagine that you are very comfortable in your ideation and lives when you respond to my points in a subdued, but obviously hateful, way, i.e., you hate my ideas about your ideas about hate. You will not be comfortable for long because it is clear that the economy that create and supports you is crumbling beneath your feet and thusly, this discussion and my ideas and additions will mean little to you as you sink into the chasm that your narrow genuflections to it currently provide. You can suppress the free all you want to here, at SMB, but you could consider that their freedom has something viable to offer you as you blindly fall into a pit from which you cannot escape and no amount of ideas or arguments will save you if you have not prepeared yourself with insight and critical though, before hand. That is, the kind of thought that is truly open to ideas and contrary opinions, unlike your Bush Administration that you all rally against but fail to act in direct contrast to.

As I leave you mist gladly and great fully, I would remind you that you are subject to the very same easy and qucik mental criticisms that you can supply. In this case, they may prove to be a matter of your very survival in the end and not just a matter of oneupmanship and ridicule that you find so comfortable and easy to convey to your fellows as a matter of transference for your personal predicament, ad absurdium!

I love you all and wish you the best, but your so-called, "democratic" and "underground" ways and means leave very much to be desired in any community that I would want to be a part of. In fact, the communality that I am a part of bears no resemblance to your kind of belittlement, rapid chastisement, and anathema, at all. Maybe you live in a very different world than I do, and maybe that is good for both me and you. Maybe we should keep it that way!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

226. I Once Saw That On A Poster

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."


Respectfully, you're not Einstein...


I could give a rip if you or Mr. Ahmadinejad, Mel Gibson's dad, or David Duke believe or disbelieve the Holocaust occured...That's your right...I think David Duke called the Holocaust at one time "pure Hollywood schmaltz".

Right thinking folks have the right to call bullshit on those claims...Just as one can't go to the NAACP board and argue slavery and Jim Crow were benign institutions one can't go to other boards and argue the Holocaust didn't occur.

As they say it's a "free country." There are plenty places to go where Holocaust Denial is welcome....

[BadgerLaw2010]

356. You've been permabanned, so good luck to ya.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

214. Wow

"The users here can decide on this situation using their own, critical thinking. I think Skinner make a big Admin mistake and should not only apologize,(since there is good money to be made running DU)"

Now, you're threatening him...

It seems like you want to silence Skinner's speech...

Can't let that go by....

[blondeatlast]

283. "Good money to be made running DU..." DUzy winner (or were you serious?) nt

[ronnykmarshall]

347. mmmmmmm pizza!

[Flabbergasted]

75. This is not a free speech issue. Ahmadinajad has a purely political purpose behind his statements.

It has nothing to do with ideas or information.

You are also missing an important irony here. Think ahmadinajad denigrating and subjugating israel. It is his free speech to do so but its still hate.

[Perseid]

97. and this is a political mb?

just sayin'

Anyone who denies the Holocaust is an obvious liar.

[cali]

109. Wow. I knew this thread would bring the creeps out of their

closets. But your post is impressive in its boldness. You don't just defend the concept of Holocaust denial, you come close to jumping right in. Holocaust denial is not a matter of historical points of view, it is deliberate denial of one of the most documented events in history. In short, it's hate speech. Liberal do not endorse hate speech.

[Babsbrain]

129. Oh, the irony.

"Creeps out of their closet"...sounds like something Anne Coulter would say. So when she says it, it is hate speech. When you say it, it is what---freedom of expression?

I have never made a statement about Holocaust Denying. And honestly, I don't give a rat's ass. It's done with people. And it is his opinion. Nothing can be changed except for your reaction to it. Is it worth dying for?

Let's clean up America before we condemn a country for their morality and culture. Let's put forth our efforts to stopping the coming war and the mutually assured destruction that will follow.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

228. Think About Your Statement With Different Groups

"I have never made a statement about slavery or the destruction of the American Indian. And honestly, I don't give a rat's ass... "

[MatrixEscape]

173. You have proved your point!

Now what closet were you lurking in, you faux liberal?

[leftynyc]

225. I thought you were leaving

So you're a liar also. And that's the last few seconds I will waste on this particular child.

[Dorian Gray]

277. Ho hum.... no tiresome. NP

[txaslftist]

328. "Liberals do not endorse hate speech?"

I thought liberals endorsed FREE SPEECH.

[Kelly Rupert]

348. They do. There isn't a contradiction.

Liberals do believe that people have the right to say what they want. They also believe in the right people have to denounce the content of hate speech. They also believe that on private message boards, they have the right to expel people who vocally hold repugnant viewpoints.

Free speech does not mean everyone has to like what you say, nor does free speech does not mean everyone has to allow you to write whatever you like on their property.

[MADem]

120. I find your true face somewhat troubling, to be honest.

This isn't a game of supporting "official party lines."

There's film. There's testimony of survivors. There's confessions of complicit individuals. There's Holocaust museums, fachrissake. We KNOW what happened.

"Official party lines" aren't the issue here. A dreadful event happened to over six million people. It's documented. To minimize or mitigate it for a political purpose, which is what Ahmadinejad did on several occasions, gleefully, is simply reprehensible. To support him for his "opinion" (and it's not an opinion, it's a lie) is unfathomable.

We can handle differing opinions, but we needn't put up with utter bullshit.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

212. As Orwell Said

As Orwell said "some ideas are so preposterous that only an intellectual can believe them...

If some yahoo started a thread here whose thesis was that slavery was a benign institution because it brought Africans Christianity and eventually liberty they would be tombstoned and rightfully so...

[yardwork]

439. I don't think I have ever been so appalled by a post on DU.

Your post literally takes my breath away. Do you realize what you are saying, or are you just repeating something somebody told you to say? Do you actually believe that it is wrong to judge somebody on the basis of whether or not they deny the systematic extermination of thousands of people? Do you seriously believe what you say when you state that this criteria, if applied to us, would "damn us over and over?"

[Stinky The Clown]

64. I used to blame it on the full moon.

But that got me flamed.

Good on ya, Skinner. :thumbsup:

[Trajan]

84. Thanks David ....

I so agree .... and an extreme religious conservative to boot ...... (NEVER liked them either ....)

It's important to remember the enemy of your enemy is probably YOUR enemy as well ...

Real friends are hard to come by ....

[Disturbed]

103. OK. 99.99 % of DU agrees that he is an Asshole.

I know that he is an Asshole. That does not mean I support an Air Strike on Iran.

[Trajan]

116. I suppose the insinuation is ....

That those who dislike the Iranian leader AUTOMATICALLY MUST want to bomb Iran .... eh ?

Is that it ?

Can you be wronger ?

Does rejection of a Jew baiting religious extremist automatically connote a desire to jump into aircraft and blow a country into smithereens ? .... Your's is an allusion that says so ....

For the record: I am NO supporter of Likudnik policies, nor of an expanded Israeli state, nor of a Nuclear Israel (I have argued FOR Palestinian rights in I/P since I got here).... but Holocaust denial is a prominent feature of a nearly sociopathic hatred of Jews, given the EXTENSIVE evidence as to the reality of the Holocaust ....

Also: It would not break my heart to see the ability to produce nuclear weapons reduced to ZERO in every single state on this green earth ..... EVERY one ... including Iran .....

Read "Report On The Barnhouse Effect" by Kurt Vonnegut ....

[KAZ]

132. Wow! I agree with everything you've said!

But I hate you for making me look at the Britster.

[Trajan]

134. Damn ... I gotta lose that thing ....

It's like wearing bad cologne ....

Kiss the Britster good bye ...

Oh wait .... nevermind ....

[MADem]

121. I'd wager that 99.9% don't support an airstrike, either.

You can think the guy is an asshole and not want to bomb the joint. It's like walking and chewing gum at the same time.

[yardwork]

441. Who does? There has been a ridiculous and shameful lack of logic here this week.

NOBODY here on DU is advocating an air strike or any form of military action against Iran. Nobody. Repeated threads have made this point.

Please stop sniveling that we're "saying mean things" about a human rights violator. Most of the people who stand up for human rights are also actively against any form of military action.

[truedelphi]

128. Clever but quite true these days. n/t

[piesRsquare]

124. Love ya, Skinner!

:loveya:

[specimenfred1984]

125. Cheney said he's not part of the executive branch, you believe him?

Sounds like you'll believe anything.

[Kelly Rupert]

131. Please clarify the statement.

Are you saying that Skinner is foolish for believing that MA is a Holocaust denier, or are you saying that MA's defenders are fools for believing that he is not?

[MADem]

137. And Cheney has film to prove it? Testimony of others ? Confessions of collaborators?

All in proof of his assertion? Gee, no, he doesn't. All he had was a halfassed assertion.

This isn't a question of "belief." This is history, facts, events, vs. bullshit.

[in_cog_ni_to]

141. Ahmadinejad isn't a Holocaust denier?

Is that what you're implying? and Skinner is just gullible?

[NutmegYankee]

144. Thank you!

We needed a dose of reality here. I saw the pro-Ahmadinejad threads and wanted to puke.

[Nutmegger]

147. I can't remember if I welcomed you...

If I didn't, then welcome to DU! :toast:

[NutmegYankee]

150. Yeah, you did in an earlier thread. Thanks

With the request to visit the Conn. forum also. I'll get there sometime.

[Nutmegger]

155. Whoops, sorry about the repeat! [n\t]

[NutmegYankee]

159. Nothing to be sorry about.

It's just extra welcoming;-)

[cali]

148. I'm troubled by many responses on this thread.

There's out and out anti-semitism, defense of Holocaust denying, and even outright Holocaust denying. I hope, Skinner, that the mods review this thread carefully.

[candymarl]

149. OK, Sknner

He is a holocaust denier. That's true. Is that a reason to go to war? No. We have holocaust deniers in this country. We allow them to speak. That is supposed to be basis of freedom of speech in this country. Having to listen to idiots unless and until they advocate the killing of others. I think this guy is the boogeyman du jour. Sure he's a homophobic jerk. So are many leaders and church leaders in this country. But I think that this type of rhetoric also led to the war/occupation in Iraq. Don't we learn from our mistakes? The moderate Iranians are pleading with us to STAY OUT OF IT. They say that they are achieving some of their goals in their own country. They're looking at Iraq and definitely do not want that kind of help. Iran is no democratic paradise. But then neither is China, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, etc. Those leaders are invited to the WH all the time without this much outrage.

[NutmegYankee]

158. Hating the leader does not equal supporting war.

I saw this disconnect all night. This guy is horrible, and just because Bush hates him doesn't mean we should flock under his banner. Both of them are horrible. Both spew diarrhea from theirs mouths.

[candymarl]

172. I'm not saying he's above criticism

My point was, this is the same type of rhetoric used to gin up the Iraq war. I quite clearly said he's not a good guy. I get that. But this all out personal attack started with the White House. How did we get into Iraq? By personally attacking Saddam as evil. Weapons of mass destruction. Iran personally attack the leader as evil. Weapons of mass destruction. Deja vu all over again. I don't like this guy. Not a fan. What I'm saying is this a deliberate campaign ala Iraq to gin up support for some kind of military action. An amendment placed in a bill that could be used to justify a military attack against Iran (see Sen Webb). We didn't carry on about this guy when he was first elected. The more the subject of war with Iran comes up, the more evil he's painted. Should he get a free pass? No. But what's the real point of all the hatred directed toward him by the White House and media? Do you really think it's just because he's evil? Why waste the time? Why give him so much attention? Experience tells us the White House never goes overboard painting someone as evil for NO REASON. Do you think Bush and the Republicans will now start defending gays right here in our own country? I doubt it.

[cali]

161. and what does all that have to do with Skinner saying no

to the posting of "Ahmadinejad is not a Holocaust denier"? He's not advocating going to war with Iran. No one here is. We're all adamently opposed to ANY military action against Iran.

[gaspee]

319. Of course no one is

But by joining in the rhetoric of how he's an evil man, it draws distinct parallels to the demonization of Hussein before the Iraq invasion and occupation.

I haven't seen one single thread praising him but I've seen thread after thread after thread about how evil he is.

And I think most of us agree that he's niot a good guy, but I am not about to catapult the propaganda so we end up in another war.

Congratulations that you're smart enough to make the distinction. Too bad most Americans are not.

The meme now, the one thing the whole country is talking about is what an evil evil man he is. Hmmm... where have we heard that before?

So when all the news networks are denouncing him and all the head-up-the-asses of corporate power pundits class start banging the war drum, all these hate threads about that moron won't have any effect?

I'm glad you're such an optimist. I'm not. Do you know how many people on this website supported this insane adventure in Iraq? A whole hell of a lot more than you'd think. And a lot more who will admit it now.

And if Ahmadinejad is talked about and denounced over and over again, it *will* affect people's opnions about the danger this man poses.

No shit, sherlock, the man is a holocaust denier. Who the fuck cares. I don't give a shit that he's a holocaust denier. *I* don't deny it and most people who aren't anti-semites and can read or watch the freakin history channel don't deny it.

The propaganda is going to be catapulted until, again, we have 80% of the populace supporting the inavasion of a sovereign nation with a tinpot dictator who does not,realistically, threaten us.

Yeah, most people who are saying cut it out already with the hate know *you* don't support attacking Iran. But it's pretty easy to convince many Americans that the little boogie man is out to get us all!

Just in case I have to spell it out for you. No, I am not a fan of Ahmadinejad. In fact, I think he's full of shit and a scared little man trying to be tough. Who cares? I don't care what the crazy guy on the corner says either (though it would be nice if he would accept the help offered to him and come inside in the winter.)

[in_cog_ni_to]

165. Where did Skinner say he thinks we should attack Iran? NO ONE on DU thinks Iran should be

invaded! Here is Skinner's post. Maybe you just misread it. *sigh*


I'm going to keep this short and to the point. Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier.

If you think he is not a Holocaust denier, do not post that garbage here. I also strongly suggest that you refrain from clicking the "recommend" link on such garbage.

Skinner
DU Admin

[Warren DeMontague]

174. Well, now, it's not entirely true to say "no one". A whopping 4 people voted "yes" in my poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1903669

But I think it's safe to say that it's a minority opinion, notwithstanding.

If criticism of Ahmadinejad is equivalent to secretly shilling for an Iran war.... it doesn't seem to be working.

:shrug:

[Skittles]

193. you are aware of trolls

right?

[Warren DeMontague]

197. I know. And frankly, that was a rather disappointing turnout, on the part of the trolls.

Leading to speculation that even the TROLLS aren't nuts enough to want war with Iran.

[Skittles]

200. LOL

:D

[candymarl]

181. To those who continue to deliberately miss the point!

One more time! I never said Skinner advocated war with Iran. I said we've seen this dance before. I never defended the man. Never. I just pointed out that other leaders are also welcomed here that are just as bad if not worse. The thing is IRAN is the only country that the government is currently advocating a military strike against! The guy IS A HOLOCAUST DENIER! I agree with that. I never praised him or said he was ok. I NEVER accused Skinner of ANYTHING! I was just pointing out the feeling of deja vu I'm getting from all this. I'm wrong. You're all right. I got that. That's why I have so few posts. I'll shut up now and go back to lurking. I give up.

[KAZ]

176. Great post Candy! But riddle me this ...

I'm guessing Skinner doesn't want to go to war with Iran because of A-man's Holocaust baiting. I'm sure he doesn't want war period, except for REAL self- defense purposes. I'm not Jewish, Gay, or a Gypsy (man, I hope I didn't leave anyone out), but imagine the rage you would feel if what happened, happened to you, or someone you loved. I still can't forgive, and I know I would go into a rage if someone posted denials on my board. Just a thought. And welcome to DU!

[candymarl]

188. That's not a riddle it's a statement

No I wouldn't go into a "rage". I hope I'm more civilized than that. Anger, pain, and disgust. I'd want justice for them too. Yes, I'm speaking from personal experience. I said I think the GOVERNMENT is doing this not SKINNER. I guess now I apparently done all of these things:

a. Accused Skinner of wanting war with Iran.
b. Praised the Iranian leader.
c. Accused people on DU of wanting war with Iran.
d. Denied A-man's holocaust denying.

Man. I'm on a roll. But I have a cure for the controversy. I agree with Skinner and all who agree with him. I apologize for any confusion. I apologize if I have in any way implied anyone on DU wants war with Iran. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

[Skittles]

192. WHERE did Skinner advocate war?

OMG what IS your damage???

[Warren DeMontague]

160. Really? I heard he just wants to "study" it. You know, with scholarly figures like David Duke.

...

:eyes:

[Balbus]

162. Some things are just too hard to resist.

I count at least 4 cockroaches, so far, that have been lured from the sewer and exposed by this thread.

[foo_bar]

236. don't dehumanize the dehumanizers

Ohio Paper Portrays Iranians As Cockroaches Fleeing Sewer
<...>
Send polite comments about this Nazi-style cartoon depicting Iranians as roaches fleeing a sewer to: [e-mail], [e-mail]

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/06/ohio-paper-portrays-iranians-as-cockroaches-fleeing-sewer/

Cockroach Cartoon Crossed the Line, Iranians Say

by Omid Memarian

As the war of words between Western nations led by United States and Iran's hardliner government over its nuclear programme has escalated in the last few weeks, a cartoon published on the editorial page of the Columbus Dispatch on Sep. 4 has created a furor amongst Iranians worldwide.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2007/09/cockroach-cartoon-crossed-line-iranians.html

First, the future victims were stripped off their human dignity, official propaganda labelling them "pigs" (Nazi Germany) or "cockroaches" (Rwanda), creatures without a right to live. Hate is systematically spread, the "unworthy" being responsible for all the ills of society.

http://www.afrol.com/Countries/Rwanda/backgr_cross_genocide.htm

"You cockroaches must know you are made of flesh. We won't let you kill. We will kill you," RTLM declared in a typical broadcast in the weeks before the genocide began on April 7, 1994.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/LAW/09/18/un.rwanda/

[cboy4]

168. ****Be CAREFUL Skinner. You risk being accused of disseminating

"anti-Iran propaganda" "to start an unnecessary war," just as I was accused of doing during what was clearly an Ahmadinejad's love fest over the past couple of days.

Although one of the accusers did try to humor me by mentioning that I was, you know, "confused." :eyes:

Garbage indeed.

[in_cog_ni_to]

170. Huh..."confused" is a new excuse. It use to be "His translators didn't translate correctly."

I'm really sorry you had to endure the love fest here the last few days. I know how painful that is.

[cboy4]

179. LOL, thanks. All I know is I've been told if we end up going to war

with Iran, blood will be on my hands because of my posts on a United States discussion board called Democratic Underground.

It's unclear, however, whether I could theoretically be prosecuted for war crimes.

Maybe I'll be lectured about that later, as the day is young.

[LittleClarkie]

186. Why, you're just like Hillary Clinton and John Kerry voting for the IWR

Don't come crying later saying that you were "misled"

Exactly. I'm not really following that logic either. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend.

[WildEyedLiberal]

187. Well hell I've been called a fascist here too

Maybe we can go to the Hague together for our fascist war crimes! :D

[cboy4]

195. Boy, that is going to be one packed flight between us and the

entire Bush Administration. ;)

[LittleClarkie]

178. If we're confused, it's because some of the arguments are mighty confusing.

I've seen some say that if a person thinks that the Iranian president is a bad man it means that you are spoiling for war and complicit with the Bush administration in a similar way to the Senate voting for the IWR.

Well, hell, I thought Saddam was a monster too, but that doesn't mean we had a right to invade his country based on trumped up evidence.

[hiphopnation]

185. so?

why do we give his ass an audience here? was this post REALLY necessary?

[Skittles]

191. Skinner, you are truly awesome

:thumbsup:

[MatrixEscape]

201. Skinner,

You, as an admin, should know that playing any personal games is bad for your usebase, even if it appears to be an amusing experiment for you or your higher-ups.

If you really stand pat on what the name of this site means, then maybe you would want to counter your personal infusion into the site with what your definition of free speech and thought is, and how you define that in you mind.

It seems that your users have taken to a form of strong and belittling censorship that promotes other users to leave this site and no longer bother to contribute or debate at all. Is that what you were intending, because that is what is certainly transpiring now.

Free thought and free speech is what in comparison to actual, physical actions on people, places, and things? We must get this clearly defined and demarcated so that the users of your personal, for profit site, understand what they are dealing with and how they might respond, in contrast to repressive modern media, to those who post here.

It seems that there is a rather good amount of confusion between thoughts, symbology, and actual reality. That is, to a point that the users here are downtrodding and castigating long-term and supportive users without understanding the fine and subtle differences between them.

Do you think that ideas, thoughts, and opinions are dangerous in themselves? Or are they actually the most imprtant and vital part of this process, here, on your site? Is a holocaust denier the same as a holocaust doer? Is a person who promotes the idea of free speech for a denier a bad person who should be castigated from DU by those who don't see the difference?

I am now ready to go for good, but I would like to see how a fellow Administrator handles his own insertion into a rather hot and dynamic topic while wondering what your incentive was.

[LittleClarkie]

202. I'm almost certain that Skinner is not amused, nor is he playing games

Just standing up against bigotry is all. Isn't that enough incentive for you?

[MatrixEscape]

204. I vote you the most likely to think for someone else then!

Good shot there, even though you are not the person I was responding to. Can you see the difference, or is bigotry a loud an mightly flag you ave, (in a similar way to the right-wings) well before you engage you critical thinking about what is really going on in any given situation?

You can define bigotry in many ways. People who cannot even come close to tolerating diversive and conflicting opinions, are the worst kinds of bigots, only because they can more easily hide behind a false banner of righteousness without fear of too much of a reprisal, cyclically! Whatever you feel save to do, you can do without worry. Whatever is unsafe or controversial to do, well, you can see how much time an effort and anathema you have to endure without the help of a mod or admin in the process.

The mass judgment has been bestowed upon the accused to the point that free speech is a matter of opinion, and the judge and jury is, by default, in accord with that new fact here at DU. We cannot be for what we are supposed to be against, even if our own thoughts nad facts stray from those pre-defined, virtual, and ultimately functional lines. That may be, unless Skinner cares to define and elaborate on that, what the DU, de factor, rules are now. I never thought it would come to this, but it seems to.

[Skittles]

203. Holocaust deniers = nutjobs

he doesn't want it here and it's his site

[MatrixEscape]

208. Holocaust Deniers of Holcaust dneires = Major Nut Jobs!

You are obviously a xenophobe who clearly buys in, wholseale, to the reality that you were totally trained to live.

By your short, vacuous response, you can go away and easily feel like you sparse contribution mattered at al.

If it is only HIS site, why don't we then lobby to get the named changed, since collective consciousness folks like you are so easy on the profit he makes from all the scores of people who contribute endlessly, day after day, to his profit?

I mean, there are plenty of vanity/ego forums and sites out there. If you are so confused about the nomenclature when it is to Skinner's (and his cohorts) profit, we have a major problem that may not just go away.

We could call it "Skinner's Democratic Underground" then. From there, I would be totally glad and happy to ignore the words that follow his name and go on from there. Otherwise, you might have a scam going on here because, not only does he and his profit from such a large and successful site, but we now have a problem about who determines the content and for what purpose.

You all have a problem that I am free and clear of because I have done sites like this and see the profit and incentive. It is easy for a person to pretend one thing and build a big, successful site, and yet profit while serving something completely different from what seems to be intended. In that case, DU is a perfect example of bait and switch. You only have to follow the money and see who owns the IP to understand the basis of this contention.

In that case, the admin chiming in and the response to my posts mean that democratic and underground are only supervicial coverups for what this really is. I would rather continue this point on the various sites I visit that have already seen this large and pervasive problem, and discuss it openly.

So, either this gets a response here, as posed by very long-term user, or it moves elsewhere, eventually to surface in a ponteially explosive ways for those who do not keep their heads in the party sand.

[Skittles]

231. what the fuck ARE you talking about?

you need help

[madeline_con]

508. Free speech.

He's talking about free speech.

[qdemn7]

239. Up until now.....

I never really understood the fact that there were truly apologists for Stalin and Mao. I certainly do now. My how history does repeat itself. :banghead:

[Marrah_G]

249. You need help...seriously, seek help.

[BootinUp]

213. Your lame ass argument reminds me the Repuke line

to "teach the controversy" regarding creationism in a science class.

Let me put it this way, The owner of DU does not want a lie that is used by many to incite hatred around the world to be posted on his message board. This is a private message board with rules that you can live with or go and fuck off.

[MatrixEscape]

215. You win!

Bravo! Your few, short lines have made a clear, Fascist model for DU that no real, thinking person could deny or refute.

Now, go be proud, you good, manipulated American, you!

If this board is so owned and private, as you imply, then it is clear that many of us don't belong here and should hightail it out of here just to save our sagacity and sanity.

Thanks!

Talks about bigots. LOL! I was here at the start and you want to fuck me off! Good for you!

[LittleClarkie]

217. You've been here from the start ? Wasn't the start around 2000?

Meanwhile, you've been here long enough to have seen the rules of the board. Have you had a problem with them before?

[BootinUp]

Get a clue

Heres one...go start a message board, its not hard, call it Freespeech.com and invite holocaust deniers and everyone else you wish to post there. I said nothing that can be framed as bigotry unless you have re-invented the English language.

[A HERETIC I AM]

257. Well, he was up early to post and now is gone. hmmm...

I think "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" might be an appropriate concept to bear in mind.

[blondeatlast]

303. I thought you said you were leaving. Here's your hat... nt

[Baby Snooks]

258. The evildeniers and the evildoers...

"Is a holocaust denier the same as a holocaust doer?"

Sometimes they are one in the same and Ahmadinejad has proven himself to be both.

I would not lend justification to the evil of Bush nor would I lend justification to the evil of Ahmadinejad.

Sometimes people are one in the same. And they are the same. Mirror images of the other.

I don't think Skinner is amused. I don't think too many are. I am deeply offended by the attempts to portray Ahmadinejad as the voice of his people. Is Bush our voice? Iranians themselves refer to Ahmadinejad as Hitler. Just as we refer to Bush as Hitler.

What is scarier than either of them are the people who support them and lend justification to their evil.

[blondeatlast]

285. And just how successful was your message board?

I have a message board too--but it isn't anywhere near as busy as this one is.

And don't let the door hitcha where the Goddess splitcha.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

211. Skinner, why do you hate the Persians? n/t

[LittleClarkie]

218. Cat hate

now there's something I can't abide.

[dipsydoodle]

223. Is this an Emperor's New Clothes post ?

:shrug:

[H2O Man]

229. Interesting.

I think that the Holocaust is recognized as being one of the most intensely studied, well-documented horrors of human history. It seems that those who want to "re-examine" that history in an attempt to deny what happened have an ugly agenda.

[slackmaster]

232. Yes, and I can't get past that or the institutionalized misogyny or homocide he supports

:toast:

(I don't know if homocide is really a word, but I think most people will understand what I mean.)

[onehandle]

235. I wish you guys would redesign the "recommend" thread system.

Crap like that and some DUers obsession with certain other embarrassing subjects make it to the front page constantly.

[Bassic]

238. That he is. nt

[Zandor]

241. K & R Boss

Way to take a stand.

[mmonk]

242. No question.

This sick thinking also exists in Saudi Arabia as well.

[Marrah_G]

243. Thanks Skinner

It's bizzaro land here lately. Gay-killing holocaust deniers are given a pass and respect because they don't like Bush while at the same time Democrats are ripped to shreds and are accused of being right-wingers, regardless of their voting record.

It's like walking into a parallel universe lately. Black is white, up is down......

[sniffa]

244. this is fLamebait

[Yael]

245. Thank you Skinner.

[Freddie Stubbs]

250. Looks like Skinner is one of those Neocons pushing for war with Iran!

;)

[CT_Progressive]

253. IBTL !

:D

[distantearlywarning]

254. Thank you for saying this.

Also, I think that some of the posters in this thread need to be evaluated carefully re: their continued participation at DU.

[Maryland Liberal]

256. I'm still trying to fugure out...

Why an oil rich country like IRAN needs nuclear power?

[Bushwick Bill]

300. Gee, I don't know...

[Odin2005]

260. Thank you Skinner. I'm getting sick of the Ahmadinejad apologists...

...constantly saying he was just "intentionally misquoted by the inherently evil Western media" and in reality is all nice and fluffy on the inside. :eyes:

[Spiffarino]

261. Yup.

How hard is it for some people to figure out that, just because Bush hates him, he's still an asshole.

[renie408]

269. That was random.

I was waiting to here some pearls of wisdom. Bummer.

And speaking of 'reccommending'...the 48 people who recommended this should look up the definition of 'sycophant'.

[cali]

273. What makes you think it was random?

And why are people who don't want to see the defense of Hate Speech sycncophants?

What pearls of wisdom would you have liked to have seen?

[renie408]

279. A) How many people here

actually wrote that Ahmadinejad was NOT a holocaust denier? I am not going back to count, but it has been very few and those have been argued with.

B) I didn't see 200-odd adoring responses to other posters who wrote basically the same thing as Skinner. Public adoration of perceived authority is what I call being a sycophant.


C) None. That was sarcasm directed at the people who were wailing for their prophet to come and tell them how to think last week. Well, here he is. I feel elevated.

I understand that Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier. That would be, umm, hard to deny. But if you just tell people "Don't talk about that here." you are (sorry, more letters) A) interfering with their right to speak freely and B) Eliminating a pathway for their minds to be changed.

In a Democracy, ideas stand or fall on their own merit, not because some authority figure picks and chooses what is OK to discuss and what isn't.

You want to know another thing I think is REALLY ironic....THIS is authoritarianism. And being slavishly applauded. THIS I have a problem with. You can tell me to stand in line. But don't tell me what to say or what to think.

[cali]

286. Actually, it was quite a few people

and what's more, the discussion brought about some ugly comments, such as this one from this thread:

"I stand by my statement
Look at PNAC and AIPAC. It would be ridiculous to assume all Jews have a negative effect on our country. But there are a disproportionate number in government, in the media and in business who are pushing America to its 'final solution.'


And that poster isn't the only one; go through the thread.

Agreeing with someone is not de facto syncophancy.

Yes, I say the crybaby thread. Now that was syncophancy.

There is LOTS of things you cannot say on DU without being tombstoned. Hate speech and the defense of hate speech are at the top of the list. You can't defend Fred Phelps either, or the KKK. I'm fine with that. In any case, this is Skinner's house. He makes the house rules: People have no right to speak 'freely' here.

You cannot change the minds of certain people who are locked into a certain frame of mind. Not with facts and not with persuasion. I tried reasoning with several people saying things like the poster I quoted. It was fruitless.

Again, DU is not a democracy. It's a private entity with rules. You can't advocate for Fred Thompson at DU, or for segregation of schools, or for locking up all illegals and throwing away the key.

Just by participating here you're being told what you can and cannot say. You are not being told what you can think. No one is doing that.

[renie408]

289. Then the name needs to be changed from "The Democratic Underground"

I agree that the comment you quoted is ugly and ignorant.

Do you really think saying, "Ahmadinejad isn't a holocaust denier." is either hate speech or defense of hate speech? Cause it just isn't. It is WRONG, but it isn't hate speech or defense of hate speech. If the poster had said, "Hey, that Ahmadinejad has the right idea about the holocaust. I really agree with him, look at these facts..." (I don't know of anything that supports the denial of the holocaust, so I don't have anything to stick there) THAT would be defense of hate speech.

God, I don't even agree with the people who don't think Ahmadinejad isn't a holocaust denier. I just think they should be able to say it here if this is supposed to be an open forum. They didn't say, "You obnoxious motherfucker, Ahmadinejad isn't a holocaust denier and if you say he is, you are an ignorant asshole who deserves to die." I would support that being removed because it is an attack on other posters (and hate speech).

I don't know. The tone of this just REALLY struck me as wrong. It feels strange that the same people who are up in arms over a high school dress code are applauding the comments Skinner made. And don't tell me that is because the one forum is public and one is private. That is a technicality and you know it.

[Virginia Dare]

270. In the words of the great Andrew Meyer..

don't tase me, bro...:sarcasm:

:thumbsup: :applause:

[renie408]

276. So, a lot of people here think a HIGH SCHOOL DRESS CODE is wrong...but you don't have a problem

with this?

I swear, there is something about the 1st Amendment that I must not get.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

287. Are you comparing a high school dress code with Holocaust denial?

If your not, don't be offended. I don't get the point that that's why I'm asking.

[renie408]

293. No

Saying "Ahmadinejad didn't really deny the holocaust" isn't the same thing as denying the holocaust. It is an intepretation of the comments of another person. In itself, it says nothing about the holocaust. The person who wrote that thread NEVER even implied that the holocaust didn't happen. What they questioned was whether or not Ahmadinejad is really a holocaust denier. He is and they were wrong. But THEY didn't engage in hate speech and they didn't really defend hate speech and they didn't deny the holocaust.

I don't agree with the comments, but I think they have a right to be said on a website that calls itself 'Democratic'. I agree that hate speech should be limited. If someone started a thread that said, "The holocaust never happened', it should be removed and quickly. This just seems different to me.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

324. I see

I'm glad I asked because as it turns out I really didn't understand your meaning. I no doubt missed something pertaining to school uniforms that took place on DU which framed your intention.

In this case DU is a private website, not a public one owned by "The People." The owners have every right to regulate the content as they see fit to keep the board running smoothly. Which they do. If a person disagrees they have every right to leave and start their own private forum where they feel they're opinions are being expressed in the manner they wish to express them.

That that person, or people as the case may be, are entitled to their opinion isn't in question, it just isn't an opinion that is going to be allowed on DU.

[renie408]

329. And I would argue

that the comment did nothing to effect the smooth running of the board. In fact, the argument about Andrew Meyers, tasering and free speech last week took up at least as much room and was at least as divisive and hotly contested.

Here is the rule about what you can and can't post: Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.

(In the interests of full disclosure, there is a really obvious way to 'get' me here)

[BadgerLaw2010]

362. You mean the part where First Amendment has no bearing on private entities?

This isn't a hard concept. DU can regulate posting however it sees fit.

[Stuckinthebush]

288. People are saying he is not a holocaust denier?

That's strange. I haven't seen it but I'll trust that it is the case.

I think the bigger issue with some here is the way the administration is manipulating an eventual war with Iran. Yes, Ahmadinejad is scummy but let's be careful how we are played by the administration. Is he the devil and should his country be bombed off the face of the earth? Hell no. Is he a nasty bonehead with some serious problems? Sure.

[aintitfunny]

290. Thank you. Just because Bush despises him does not

make him noble, correct or misunderstood.

[DeepModem Mom]

291. All I could say last night was thank you...

but I wanted to say a little more this morning. For 24 hours, I fought it out in a thread involving this issue that I posted after Ahmadinejan's speech. It was the first time in my years at DU that I've participated in any of the frequent blazing hot threads, much less posted one. It was not something I enjoyed, and I don't look forward to ever doing it again. But kind of like Olbermann when he has a Special Comment in him that has to come out, reluctantly, I would again.

Clearly, some who post here expect this site to be something different from what it is. I appreciate your statement of last night reaffirming one aspect of what it is. Recently, we've been mentioned in the press as a sounding board for political issues. It gives us a bit of power beyond ourselves, and even beyond our frequent efforts to influence Congressional votes, support campaigns, etc. I think that's good. (And, in the name of God, don't accuse me of worrying about what "Freepers" think. That makes me really mad.)

Free speech. That is the kicker that's always thrown in. This is an advocacy site. We users support it with our contributions. It's made clear what we are paying to advocate here, and what we are not. If the definition under the rules of what is advocated here doesn't fit what one wants to advocate, then it's also made clear that one should go elsewhere. That's it, and it's simple. Or, as Skinner says in his post, for which I am so very grateful, it's short and to the point.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

295. Thank you.

I can't believe what I've been seeing on DU lately. Well, actually I can after being here for years.

[Exiled in America]

297. Hurray for free speech when we like the speech!

Hip hip hurray!!

[Marrah_G]

305. Hurray for the freedom to start your own message board!

[renie408]

309. Here's the thing...

You can. And you can call it anything you like and create any rules you want. But if you are going to lure progressives and Democrats to the site, call it the Democratic Underground and say it is an open forum...

I understand prohibiting hate speech. But saying that A* doesn't really deny the holocaust isn't, in itself, hate speech.

[Marrah_G]

312. You were "lured" here?

:rofl:

[renie408]

316. DUH. Of course I was. We all were. Not by a guy in a park offering us candy

But by the name of the board and the idea that it gave us of the nature of the discussion here. I was not inclined to join the Free Republic due to the fact that I could readily detect through the name the nature of the board.


Roll around and laugh all you want. It's named 'The Democratic Underground' for a reason. The name is appealing to a certain set of people. Skinner wants as many members as he can get, so he chose a name designed to be appealing to that set of people. That is, in a sense, luring people to his message board.

You know, yesterday I didn't know how to spell 'Ahmadinejad' and I didn't know all that much about him. So at least this discussion has been good for something. For me, at least.

[blondeatlast]

341. You didn't have to remain after reading the Rules.

"Underground" simply can, and in this case, does, refer to the fact that it operates apart and not officially, with the named authority--as in,

Who We Are: Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates.

Pretty crystal clear to me.

[renie408]

342. How does

"Ahmadinejad doesn't really deny the holocaust" violate that part?

Is saying that Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier a progressive ideal?

Jeez, and here I thought the 1st Amendment was a progressive ideal. Learn something new every day.

[madeline_con]

511. I thought progressive people suported free speech.

Maybe I was misinformed. :shrug:

[american_typeculture]

320. You spout that all the time, it's really old and tired.

Reminds me of, "America, love it or leave it".

[Fading Captain]

326. Love it or leave it!

Nice sentiment.

[renie408]

327. About the board rules...

I already posted this on another thread, but am going to do it here, also.

>>Do not post messages that are inflammatory, extreme, divisive, incoherent, or otherwise inappropriate. Do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior. Do not post broad-brush, bigoted statements. The moderators and administrators work very hard to enforce some minimal standards regarding what content is appropriate. But please remember that this is a large and diverse community that includes a broad range of opinion. People who are easily offended, or who are not accustomed to having their opinions (including deeply personal convictions) challenged may not feel entirely comfortable here. A thick skin is necessary to participate on this or any other discussion forum.<<

I don't see hate speech mentioned. I see 'minimal standards'. I see "A thick skin is necessary'.

I don't see anything that would even insinuate that 'Ahmadinejad isn't really a holocaust denier' is against board rules.

[liberalsoldier5]

302. Hat's off to you, Skinner!

:patriot:

[blondeatlast]

304. Thanks. nt

[kenfrequed]

307. I agree

which is why I am not going to reccommend this post as well.

Talking about the man or making him the issue only serves Fox news. I don't care if he pretends to agree with us here. Even a post pointing this out or trying to call it into contention here is a waste of time.

[kenfrequed]

308. so please

People STOP recommending posts like this or posts that say he is a great guy. Either or. You are only helping the pro-Iran-war crowd.

[yardwork]

313. Thank you very much, Skinner.

[Cameron27]

314. Thanks Skinner

Some of the posts that attempted to justify this man's hate were too painful to read, I'm glad you spoke up about it.

[pas11]

321. So?

So what? There are worse things in this world at the moment . . .

[xiamiam]

325. deeply saddened by this stance...first time ever on du, my favorite site...

mostly i saw people striving to understand and truly know facts rather than believe the talking points handed down to us...dialogue censored now...very disappointing...and surprising...du has saved my sanity throughout these past several years....this is a lowpoint...i never did see a thread which got anywhere to truly understanding the "enemy" because the flaming started...maybe christian amanpours interview will give us more information...obviously not going to learn anything more here...

[Kelly Rupert]

359. Dialogue is not being censored. Get off your cross.

What is happening is that people are claiming Ahmadinejad is not a Holocaust denier. He is. There are quotes in this thread.

If you want to "understand" and "learn" where Holocaust deniers are coming from, I suggest Stormfront. DU isn't the place for bullshit hate speech.

[renie408]

370. One More Time...

Saying "Ahmadinejad doesn't really deny that the holocaust happened." is factually incorrect. IT IS NOT HATE SPEECH and it is NOT, in itself, a holocaust denial.

Also, there are no rules specifically against hate speech on this board. There might be by this afternoon, but as of when I checked this morning, there aren't.

And telling people what they can and can't say IS precisely censorship. It might be censorship you agree and have no problem with, but it is still censorship.

[Kelly Rupert]

375. And one more time for you.

1. Nobody's claiming that's hate speech. They're claiming M.A.'s words are hate speech and holocaust denial. Skinner did not say "anyone who claims MA is not a Holocaust denier will be banned," he said "That's bullshit, so please don't post that."

2. Hate speech is pretty clearly covered by "do not engage in anti-social, disruptive, or trolling behavior," and has been forever. Anyone who's spent more than a week here would know that. As the rules state, "In this regard, we strongly advise that our members exercise a little common decency, rather than trying to parse the message board rules to figure out what type of antisocial behavior is not forbidden."

3. If you're referring to Skinner asking us not to claim M.A. isn't a Holocaust denier, no, that is not censorship. That is requesting that you not post bullshit, not mandating that you don't. Now, if you are referring to the fact that you are not allowed to be a Holocaust denier on DU, well...yeah, of course that is censored. Any sort of hate speech is censored on this site. Hell, conservative viewpoints are censored on this site. This is a site with rather strict rules, dedicated to discussion of progressive viewpoints without interference from disrupting nutjobs. If that isn't up your alley, there are other sites in which Holocaust deniers are allowed to rave all they like without interference.

[renie408]

399. I guess if I didn't see

all kinds of bullshit posted and ignored here all the time, I wouldn't even have noticed. There are all kinds of 'out there' opinions on this board and some of them are just as inaccurate as the thing about MA (thanks for that abbreviation. If I had to write that name again, I think I was going to crazy).

Here's the thing...I don't support MA and I understand full well that he is a holocaust denier. I fully believe that holocaust denial is most likely a sign of extreme bigotry. I am not coming from that direction AT ALL.

I went back a couple of pages and can't find the thread in question, so I am going on memory here...but I don't remember the OP condoning holocaust denial. I remember it being an interpretation of MA's holocaust denial. I remember that because I remember thinking, "Well, duh, if you are interpreting his holocaust denial, then he obviously is a holocaust denier." I just don't think that fits into the rules as stated here. I also don't think it necessarily serves the board to censor that kind of discussion. It wasn't conservative or anti-progressive. And the rules AREN'T strict. They are described as 'minimal'. That isn't strict. The poster wasn't a troll, the intent of the thread wasn't inflammatory...nothing. I don't have a problem with locking the thread if it devolved into that. But I do have a problem with a blanket "This is what you can say here about holocaust deniers" statement.

The most honest people are not the ones who are trying to justify this under the rules. They are the ones who are saying, "This is Skinner's site and he can do what he wants". I have just never felt like this board was about Skinner's personal beliefs.

I agree with his sentiment. I don't like his stating it as an administrator. I really hate censorship. Really. In the end, what I hate doesn't matter. I know that. But as long as I don't use hate speech to say it, I should be allowed to say it. Just like you are allowed to disagree. Trust me, it isn't that I don't understand your argument. I just don't agree.

[xiamiam]

376. why do u feel the need to attack me...tell me to get off my cross...that is hateful...you dont know

me or anything about me...you dont know my opinions other than i feel saddened because dialogue has been averted...im more inclined to be interested in facts other than your personal opinion about where i should get my news...

[Kelly Rupert]

380. Again, if you'd like to have a dialogue on

whether the most-documented event of the 20th century occurred, feel free to go elsewhere. Holocaust denial is the only thing that's getting people banned in this thread. For anything else, DU is still open for discussion.

[xiamiam]

383. i never said that...ever...please open your closed little mind...nt

[Kelly Rupert]

391. Ah, then if that's not your problem,

then you should be quite happy, as nothing else is being censored. Skinner asked you not to say M.A. wasn't a Holocaust denier because that's bullshit, but no censorship!

[renie408]

402. You do know the definition of censorship, right?

1. an official who examines books, plays, news reports, motion pictures, radio and television programs, letters, cablegrams, etc., for the purpose of suppressing parts deemed objectionable on moral, political, military, or other grounds.
2. any person who supervises the manners or morality of others.


If what Skinner did wasn't censorship, I don't know what is. Again, you might agree with it, but it is still censorship.

[Kelly Rupert]

407. And what exactly was suppressed?

"X is an obvious lie, so do not repeat it, because you're embarrassing everyone." is not censorship. It's a request for civility. He has not deleted or blocked any posts, or locked any threads, or anything of the sort as a reaction to this. He simply weighed in with his opinion and requested we not spread lies. Save your outrage, because it's misplaced.

[renie408]

446. Honey, no matter how much sense it makes to you, if one person has the power

to limit another person's ability to speak and uses it, it's censorship. Period. The definition doesn't say, "Only it's not censorship if the subject you are censoring is stupid and factually incorrect".

[renie408]

400. No, holocaust denial is not what was banned.

What was banned was a discussion about whether or not Ahmadinejad was a holocaust denier.

They. Are. Not. The. Same. Thing.

You are twisting this to imply that anyone who thinks that discussion should be allowed is a holocaust denier themselves. That is simply false.

[Kelly Rupert]

404. That was not banned at all.

Read the OP. He did not ban it. No person has been tombstoned for discussing it. No threads have been locked for discussing it. No posts have been deleted for discussing it.

He said, "Please stop debating it, because he is a Holocaust denier, and saying he isn't is stupid." Disapproval of an inane viewpoint is not censorship.

There have been people tombstoned on this thread. Those are people who say "Holocaust denial is not a bad thing," or who say "What's wrong with not believing the Holocaust? People don't believe in the Easter Bunny too." The only censorship that has gone on has been directed towards actual holocaust deniers.

[renie408]

442. Huh? If you are the administrator of a message board and

based on your disapproval you say, "don't post that shit here", it's censorship. Stop trying to put lipstick on that pig. It is censorship by any definition. And it isn't like there aren't PLENTY of inane threads floating around here. If Skinner locked or banned ALL factually incorrect threads or all threads he found inane, there probably wouldn't be a whole lot going on around here.

And that thread WAS locked for discussing it, too, BTW. And by Skinner.

[BootinUp]

474. Discussion/debate of the rules is against the rules, last I

checked.

[Moochy]

497. But is disucussion / debate about discussion / debate of said rules

against the rules?

[BootinUp]

498. lol.....ya got me.

I bet I did step o're the line there, lol.

[Moochy]

499. We'll be ok!

Just don't recommend nothing about President of Iran in case someones being sarcastic or isnt and you think they are or arent.... I think everything will turn out ok. :thumbsup: :scared:

[Malikshah]

381. BS-- folks are being grouped together into two large groups

with no discussion now allowed of what was said or the ramifications of those who wish to foment war unhindered.



That's crap and censorship.

[Imp3achbush]

330. Whats all the furor over...

Would you be so mad if he was a Creationist denier??? Or a Evolution denier??? So he happens not to believe in the holocaust, SO WHAT... Does he believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny???

[sir_captain]

332. Enjoy your stay here

[renie408]

335. Jesus. Now even I think that violates the

rule about coherence.

Don't help.

[Kelly Rupert]

363. Holy shit. You just actually compared the Holocaust to the Easter Bunny.

Didn't think we'd see any true-blue Holocaust deniers here.

[cooolandrew]

331. Ahmadinejad's point is in free societies why is it not up for debate. He's never directly denied it.

[sir_captain]

338. Why don't you read the OP again

and then you might consider getting an education.

[Kelly Rupert]

367. First of all, he has. Several times.

There are quotes in this thread.

Secondly, it isn't up for debate. It happened. It is perhaps the most-documented event in history. Denying it is considered hate speech all across the free world.

[renie408]

372. Hey

Could you really understand what that was supposed to mean? Is it missing punctuation or something? I feel left out because I can't figure out what he was saying.

[NoodleyAppendage]

334. Well. Then let's just start World War IV because he's a Holocaust denier.

I guess another Holocaust (in the form of World War IV) will serve as just punishment for his "thought crime?" Whatever.

J

[RandomKoolzip]

344. Yeah, I'm sure Skinner's jonesin' for another war.

:eyes:

[renie408]

346. Nah...he just needs a 'thicker skin'. n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

366. Nobody here wants war with Iran.

You know, one can acknowledge that Ahmadinejad is a scumbag AND believe war would be a bad idea too.

[NoodleyAppendage]

432. I agree, but the Neocons are using "Holocaust Denier" as a cudgel to gin up next war.

Ahmadinejad may be a bad person, just like Saddam was a bad person, but if we are to pick fights with everyone we don't like (whatever the reason), then we are going to be in a perpetual state of war.

J

[Crabby Appleton]

340. Thank you, Skinner nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

343. I guess we don't do nuance either. n/t

[graywarrior]

345. Just adding my 2 cents

:thumbsup:

[Taverner]

365. Yup! I agree with you!

Ahmadinejad had the full, constitutionally guaranteed right to make an idiot of himself (which he did) in front of the world.

Free speech, ain't it grand?

[Magrittes Pipe]

369. You know what makes me happy?

Seeing the handful of anti-Semites who have been tombstoned for their posts on this thread. If for nothing else, it was worth it to get their hate-spewing asses banned.


K&R.

[blondeatlast]

374. Indeed. The mods--and no doubt Skinner, et al--are doing a great job. nt

[sir_captain]

388. Hear hear

It's too bad not all of them came out of the woodwork.

[Midlodemocrat]

389. Hedges, I was just thinking the same thing. Good riddance to all of them.

[terrya]

409. Perfectly said.

Anti-Semitism has no place whatsoever around DU. Anyone spewing that kind of shit deserves automatic tombstones.

Thanks for expressing my feelings, as well. :thumbsup:

[rockymountaindem]

413. I'm only aware of one granite cookie in this thread

Who have I missed?

[Klukie]

373. Here is a definition of a Holocaust denier...

I am posting because I notice that many are simply arguing over the meaning of the term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

[Kingshakabobo]

396. Thanks for posting that.........

I wanted to read up on the subject but was afraid to ask and start a flame war. I shoulda thought of Wiki - at least there will links to scholarly articles.

I've always understood the "creepiness" of Holocaust denial but I want to read up on it.

[Klukie]

405. Hey.... you are quite welcome.

To be honest, I was nervous posting this due to the atmosphere.

[harlinchi]

392. Is this why there is a problem discussing dual citizenships?

You locked a post of mine for mentioning names and countries. Does any apparent anti-Israel comment cause such a reaction?

[sir_captain]

397. Are you for real?

First of all, what does denying the existence of the holocaust have to do with Israel?

And second, have you noticed that there's an entire forum on DU specifically for discussing the Israeli/Palestinian conflict?

[rinsd]

418. Dual loyalty arguments are bullshit.

They're bullshit when applied to Mexicans by anti-immigrant rwers and they're bullshit when applied to Jewish Americans.

[goodgd_yall]

406. Yay, Skinner! n/t

[Leo 9]

410. He probably knows better but does it anyway to cheese off

Israel, and pander to his base.

[Lochloosa]

414. Locking

:evilgrin:

[Bryan Sacks]

416. Why veil your threats, Skinner?

Say what you mean.

For a more reasoned view on Ahmadinejad, please see:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/JCMach1/35

[durrrty libby]

417. Thank You. His apologists should find another home. They're loathsome

[redqueen]

423. I find it truly shocking that it was even debated...

and not much shocks me anymore.

[sampsonblk]

425. We have to hear them out.

These dime-a-dozen holocaust deniers always expose themselves if you hear them out. Their claims are just plain wacky.

But the minute we shout them down, plenty of fools are willing to take that as a sign that there's some truth to what they are saying.

With a set of ideas so completely without merit, the best solution for holocaust deniers is to hear them out every time. They are just too ridiculous.

[conscious evolution]

426. I don't know which scares me more

The fact that so many here have got caught up in the psyop/mind control and black propoganda campaign being waged to drum up a new war,
or the fact that Skinner seems to be making threats over how people recommend articles.
Wtf?

[cali]

427. What exactly leads yo to believe that people here

have "got caught up in the psyop/mind control and black propoganda campaign being waged to drum up a new war,..."?

What is the criteria for that?

[conscious evolution]

449. Lots of reading and research on the subject

When half of a board is consumed with one subject,especially one that that plays to objectives of pnac,you can bet someone somewhere is having a good laugh at our expense.

[cali]

453. nobody gives a tinkers damn about

what DUers say about Ahmadinejad. It's almost supremely unimportant in the greater scheme of things. Furthermore, it hardly plays to the objectives of pnac or anyone else, considering the fact that a good 99% of DUers are adamently against any hostilities toward iran. And that's the bottom line. No one here is going to support bombing Iran, and no lies will seduce people into supporting it. hell, I recognized the terrible things that Saddam did, and I was not only against the war that started in 2003, i was against the Gulf War.

[conscious evolution]

455. You are right.They don't give a damn

what we say about him.
They are just glad we are wasting time saying it.

[yardwork]

456. So you think it's a waste of time to talk about human rights?

Why are you here, then?

[conscious evolution]

463. I would rather focus on stopping a war

If there was only some kind of relationship between war and human rights I would probably post about it.

Should I edit to add the sarcasm smilie?

[mudesi]

428. Locking

Flamebait.

:evilgrin:

[rpannier]

472. lol....

awesome.

[goodgd_yall]

488. Self-delete n/t

[asthmaticeog]

429. I'm giving this thread its gazillionth rec...

...because it's just plain FUN seeing all these antisemitic trolls act up and get the granite rebuke. :D

Thank you Skinner. Now the ZOG can get on with its ruthless business without these pesky internetsters compromising our stealth. :thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

430. I don't care what they say about you - you're alright in my book! :)

[CGrantt57]

431. Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier.

Yes, he is.

But, the bigger question is: Why is this our problem?

Why is this little man, whose country couldn't threaten mainland US if they tried, our concern?

Nobody seems to be able to answer that.

Why should we care if this walking pile of horseshit denies the holocaust? Will it alter our lives in some significant way?

To deny an event of such magnitude simply labels the denier as an idiot, incapable of rational thought.

We have bigger problems. Why are we addressing this?

Regards,

[softwarevotingtrail]

444. who cares if he is - the question is, did Jews push for the Iraq War?

Jews didn't support the Iraq War any more than any other ethnic or religious group prior to the invasion. Moreover, Jews voted overwhelmingly against George Bush in the 2000 election. It's doubtful that Al Gore would've invaded Iraq.

That said, The Office of Special Plans in the Pentagon was instrumental in making the case for war, prior to invasion, the truth be damned, and the OSP was founded and spearheaded by committed Zionist Jews (and Likud allies) Paul Wolfowitz and Douglas Feith.

In an interview with the Scottish Sunday Herald, former CIA officer Larry C. Johnson said the OSP was "dangerous for US national security and a threat to world peace. lied and manipulated intelligence to further its agenda of removing Saddam. It's a group of ideologues with pre-determined notions of truth and reality. They take bits of intelligence to support their agenda and ignore anything contrary. They should be eliminated." (source: Wikipedia)

Also intrumental to the buildup to war was PNAC, the Project for the New American Century. Over one-third of PNAC's founding members were Jewish. If PNAC reflected the actual makeup of the United States, just over 2 percent of PNAC's founding members would have been Jewish.

So it's a mixed bag for the Jewish people. Certainly the overall populations of Jews in the US has voted in such a way that would have made the war in Iraq unlikely. But there definitely *is* is hardcore group of right-wing Zionist Jews in positions of power allied with the Likud in the U.S. that must share responsibility for what has happened these past dark, long six years.

The Jewish people must stare truth in the eye on this one. Truth is the friend of most Jewish people in the US. But definitely the enemy of some.

[cali]

450. So do Christians also

have to stare truth in the eye on this one? Because a lot of people in influential positions within Defense, not to mention the admin are jonesing for war with Iran and are architects of the Iraq war. Think bush, Cheney and Addington just to start with.

[asthmaticeog]

466. "So it's a mixed bag for the Jewish people."

We'll take that under advisement. Thanks for the helping hand.

[rpannier]

475. There were Christians that pushed for the war

There were Muslims that pushed for this war, there are most likely people of other religions who pushed for the war as well as some atheists who thought it a good idea and supported it.

So, I guess every religious group, and non-religious group, must stare truth in the eye then?

[ProudDad]

434. Just as bush wanted to get Saddam

'cause he tried to kill my daddy.

Same motivation, same kind of puppet...

What's your point, Skinner?

[liam_laddie]

437. My big wish today is...

that all the posters' thoughts and energy devoted to Mahmoud's warped view of history could be diverted to telling the GODDAMN DEMS IN CONGRESS TO GET SOME SPINE, get some facts straight, and get the USofA OUT of the suicidal track that this ILLEGAL administration has chosen. GOD, that's more important that the high-pressure pissing matches I've read on this thread.

[peace13]

443. Agree! n/t

[Kajsa]

440. Redstone got raked over the coals

because he asked for some clarification
and direction.

And here it is, in its purest form.

:shrug:

[Redstone]

459. Uh, hey, thanks for the support, but Skinner was NOT talking about me.

I do not support that asshole; see here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1905971

But thanks again.

Redstone

[Kajsa]

483. I know.

I was just comparing the two threads.

I'm no fan of MA myself.
His lies rival those of GW.

Feel better soon, Redstone.

:hi: :pals:

[Generator]

447. He's also a homosexual denier

And you know, gays, jews, cripples, mentally ill, physcially ill, well you know the list-he and Hitler would have made great buds no doubt. And need I add women were only needed for their baby making abilities in the reich-unless they were those nice camp guards.

As a bisexual feminist liberal mother I don't think he would be on my team neither.

I really haven't wanted to comment but JEEZ-thanks for this Skinner.

[muryan]

448. thanks skinner

there are some people too anti-semitic, too paranoid for their own good. Its that kind of garbage that reminds me crazy freepers..not the progressives we claim to be

[american_typeculture]

457. Does that last line mean that you are monitoring what people recommend?

Are you also monitoring how people vote in polls?

[peace13]

458. Oh...that could get messy!

With congress rolling over we are looking more and more like enemy combatants. I would hate to have my recommends forwarded to the brown shirts! Peace, Kim

[conscious evolution]

477. I caught that too.

He must be monitoring us here so he doesn't have to ...
Where have I heard that shit before?

[Poll_Blind]

501. It's pretty common knowledge that people have been banned for voting a certain way in polls.

  The last time it happened was another thread about Ahmadinejad, as far as I know. Actually it was a couple of people who were banned because they voted the "wrong way" in a poll.

  The poll appeared to be a set up, though. The user (not administrator, not moderator) who posted it worded it in such a way to elicit votes FOR a certain answer, which seemed reasonable in the light of their originally-worded message.

  Then, about, I dunno, like almost ten or so replies down, they basically changed the argumentative inflection by redefining one of the terms in the main post (which was still unchanged). And of course you can't go back and un-tick a poll once you've entered it. Good times here at DU!

Recommendations are no different. There is, of course, nothing which is not exposed to inspection by the Administrators. Private messages, etc.

PB

[Redstone]

467. You're joking, right? As many time as that asshole has denied the Holocaust, there are still

people who think he's NOT a "holocaust denier?" When he's "denied it" IN PUBLIC, ON RECORD, so many times?

Absolutley amazing. That would be like saying, "Hey, David Duke actually LIKES black people."

Redstone

[noahmijo]

469. And may I add that Ahmadinejad is a punkass piece of shit who deserves ridicule

wherever he goes just like *.

[IsItJustMe]

470. Believe what you want, but I know for a fact that our media has consistently mis-stated what he has

said, which, for me, makes it very difficult to get to the truth of the matter.

And I will give you another example of a person who our media consistently mis-states and has it out for. CHAVEZ

I am happy for those who see things so clearly but I am not quick to judge based on what I hear from our m$m.

[cali]

473. It's not difficult and one doesn't need the MSM

Put simply, there's ample information out there. It's been posted here at DU. It's easy to find on the internet. And even if you didn't do that, the holding of the Holocaust Denial Conference with exactly zero real scholars, and folk like David Duke in attendence is a de facto declaration of Holocaust Denial- and the conference was his baby.

[California Griz]

476. The guys a politician plain and simple

He's playing to his base just like Bush is playing to his base with his hateful rhetoric. Do people think politicians actually believe everything that comes out of their mouths. People like Bush and this guy just love this kind of stuff. They stir up the hate it's what gives them power. Don't fall into the trap stay untied for peace.

[brentspeak]

478. How do you know this "as a fact"?

[IsItJustMe]

479. I will not go further into it because of the OP's instructions regarding this post.

In other words, I really don't feel free to even question, much less even dare to express a differing opinion.

But if you really want to know, get on the internet and look up Ahmadinejad mis-quote.

And don't worry, I hear the drum beats for war with Iran, loud and clear, through our m$m. And as usual, people are ignorantly falling in line. Bit by Bit.

[abq e streeter]

471. Another thank you

Its sad, and profoundly embarrassing to me as a liberal American, that you even needed to do this.

[Beam Me Up]

480. May be but regime change begins at home, does it not?

Wouid you deny that the Executive branch of the US government is responsible for at least hundreds of thousands of deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan? Moreover, would you agree that war with Iran could lead to a global confrontation that most of us don't even want to think about?

My point? Ahmadinejad, regardless of his opinions and beliefs, isn't really our problem. New Testament verses regarding beams in neighbors eyes comes to mind.

[DRoseDARs]

482. But why do we care? Is he going to prevent Pres Roosevelt from ordering US troops into Europe?

Does he have the power to make Germany remove its memorials? Does he hold sway over the various Jewish groups here in the US and abroad? Are Israelis going to pack up and leave upon his command? Even if he asks them nicely?

I've avoided these kinds of threads since they started appearing up to now, but this was too much. Skinner why are you letting yourself get dragged in?

[cali]

485. Why do you think skinner

was "dragged" into anything?

I'd guess, he doesn't like seeing some of the shit in the threads regarding this.

[DRoseDARs]

487. It's sad that he thinks he needs to weigh in. If it's such a big problem, lock all such threads.

Isn't there precedent for such a drastic lockdown, like when the Freepers troll en mass?

I'm tired of hearing about it too; I'd much rather hear each of our Senators explain their Yea votes on that fucking "Bomb-bomb-bomb bomb-bomb Iran" amendment.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

520. I Suspect Skinner Doesn't Want DU

I suspect Skinner doesn't want DU tagged as a site where , whether or whether not the Holocaust actually occurred, is actively debated.

I think that would change the character of this site.

[jeff30997]

486. "Ahmadinejad is a Holocaust denier."

I won't argue with that.What's bothering me is that all this Ahmadinejad bashing is very pleasing to the ears of the scumbags who want to bomb Iran.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

489. Question...

when people actually deny the ongoing holocaust in Iraq, and the 1.2 million dead, are you going to ban that too?

What about this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1910513#1915468

[Poll_Blind]

503. "Holocaust Exceptionalism" is practiced here. You might learn more about...

...what "Holocaust Exceptionalism" is, why it came about and how it causes harm, even unintentionally, in Norman Finkelstein's excellent book "The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering".

PB

[Semper_FiFi]

490. Thank you for your post. Too much adulation of Ahmadinejad in DU. n/t

[ileus]

491. Tell us something we don't know.

[smoogatz]

492. Lots of Iranians are. So are millions of Arabs, and tens of millions of Muslims

around the world. No doubt many of our so-called allies in the Pakistani and Saudi Arabian ruling cadre/class are also fervent Holocaust deniers. I don't think the fact that they hold ugly and inaccurate beliefs means we don't talk to them, or that it's okay to bomb their cities and kill their citizens.

[TomClash]

494. This thread is a hoot

It's funnier than "Springtime for Hitler." I didn't know DU had revived commedia dell' atre!

[cali]

505. nothing is funnier than "Springtime for Hitler....

and Germany", but i gotta admit this thread has become funny as hell, and I can't help it, but I think this is the funniest:

Whats all the fuhrer over...
Would you be so mad if he was a Creationist denier??? Or a Evolution denier??? So he happens not to believe in the holocaust, SO WHAT... Does he believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny???


(OK, I admit, I changed furor to fuhrer)

[TomClash]

519. Funny change

I don't know what all the fuhrer is about - "Holocaust denial" is just an oxy-MORON.

[PATRICK]

502. The enemy of my enemy

saying is too often a popular defense of making heroes out of Bush opponents. In this case the aura is especially rotten because Mr. A's career fortunes are enhanced in lockstep with Bush policy. ALL of the people trapped between these two nutjobs are in great danger of their lives, more especially the Iranian people themselves who most likely would have shucked off this guy long ago("impure" a democracy as they are) had it not been for Bush's terror rallying people behind their guy to their disadvantage both in peace and war.

Bush's main war foes are people implanted already by oil interests and other diseases. It is largely like a gang war which, once over, leaves the boss of bosses supreme. Chavez is not even in that immoral league of villains yet people start throwing the same robes over all Bush opposition.

That said, everyone falls into the trap that being a holocaust denier or not is even an issue except that it integrally plays into the Israel issue and the dangerous nutjob issue. The script, the lies leading us into this new war, lies telegraphed like sidewinder punches in slow motion, is that this is about terrorist threats, threats to Israel or atomic bombs(their theoretical future ones). It is a palpable lie for fools already fooled more than once. Hate and fantasy glazes their eyes over. So much easier than removing our fraud of a president.

Even more, Skinner should warn people about falling into these dangerous scripts, this media/WH control of the conversation so that the blatant crisis and crime is distracted. Hero worship, vilification, judging other countries and individuals is all nonsense. Our problem is here and now with Bush. There has not been nor most likely ever will be a legitimate danger or legitimate action or good outcome from any of the twisted intent and planning coming from the fraudulent sewer that is the current occupied WH. You deny other truths and it substantively helps deny that as well, if only by feverish, useless, media-provoked hypocrisy and distraction.

There are certain poisons at the extremes of these distractions that forever make words like "Israel" and "Nader" a viral flame war of ill repute. Certain things, free speech or not, Dem free opinion or not, are as bad as RW propaganda. There is always an imperfect limit here, imperfectly agreed to, to ironically help free speech and truth sharing and opinion to flourish without the poisons. There might be a big point or point of justified disagreement, but the alternative we have come here to fight is not exceptional, it is totally destructive. In this case the owner of this web site, who rarely has had to curb the wild west of democratic fervor, is not only within his rights but deserves words of support. The truth has been abandonned or twisted by the MSM and the GOP and the establishment or whatever. We should guard it like a trust, not a mindless windfall to be abused by us as well.

[NoGodsNoMasters]

514. Well said...

It also bears mentioning, as I have said before, that while haulocaust denial and anti-semitism are reprellant, there are MUCH worse. Saudi Arabia makes Iran look progressive and moderate by comparison. And I belive that Aminajad (or however you spell it.) is using anti-semitic rhetoric, admittedly a bad thing, as a means of expressing VERY LEGITIMATE greivances against the state of Israel which invades it's neighbors, holds thousands prisoner without charges, and is using increasingly barbaric measures to slowly annihilate the palestinian refugees. However, i don;t think the radical right Likud (again, spelling?) party represents the Israeli people any more than Bush represents us, but they are without question the most violent government in the region, even saudi Arabia, while it may be brutal to it's own people, doesn't invade it's neighbors and abduct foreign citizens by the hundreds. This is a human rights issue which has gone unacknowledged for too long. As for Iran, military action against them would be DISASTROUS!!!! We don't have the money, or the resources, our military's stretched thin as it is, Bush has already alienated most of the world with his stupidity this would be the straw that broke the camels' back. But I saved the best reason NOT to begin conflict with Iran for last, simply THERE IS NO REASON FOR CONFLICT WITH IRAN!!! The Bush administration has kept this quiet and the media, as usual, has capitulated, but since Bush's presidency they have made at LEAST four attempts to sit down and have diplomatic relations, moreover there is a very pro-western movement among Iranians who aren't like aminejad! who like western music, clothes, culture, but they're afraid of us, as well they should be. The CIA overturned they're DEMOCRACY in the 1950's and turned it into a brutal dictatorship for decades that killed and tortured thousands. Let's please please please please please not repeat the mistakes of the past and FIANALLY!!! have peace between our two countries. Moreover, by repeating the far rights' hateful rhetoric YOU ARE HELPING THEM SELL WAR JUST LIKE THEY DID IN IRAQ. Aminejad is no hero, but there are many men women and children in Iran who are decent people who could be killed if this happens. We need to have intelligent, reasonable dialogue, something the neocons just aren't capable of. I repeat, he's no saint, but by voicing this hostility you are HELPING THE REPUBLICANS. Something I'm sure none of us want to do.

[Singular73]

509. Yes, he's a Holocaust denier, so lets bomb and kill the citizens of Iran

Sounds perfectly reasonable.

This thread makes no sense. I know its your forum, but the ever-increasing umbrage of outrage and over-sensitivity to this topic is staggering. Its obviously local politics. And its conviction based on a thought crime, which I find reprehensible support for in the "liberal" community.

It would be as if African Americans called for the overthrow of the US Government because of a statement by Bush that slavery never really happened..or you know, that those po black folk in New Orleans were better off because of Katrina.

Ridiculous.

[RufusTFirefly]

510. Gotta love the effect the phrase "Holocaust denier" has on the banner ad

It promises a dating service: "100 percent Christian!"
http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/imgad?id=CJOl7N7W4s6TNBDYBRhPMgiQcsI90WrECA



What a country!!

What better place to find the Holocaust denier of your dreams?! Hallelujah!!

[The Purple Shamrock]

513. Willful Denial of Reality

To state that the Holocaust never happened is of the same order of ridiculousness as saying the earth is roughly 4000 years old.
The facts which prove otherwise are in plain sight. Period. There's been a lot of this going around lately, this stark raving denial of objective reality because someone really really wants it to be otherwise.
It really needs to be smacked down hard every time it raises its head. Skinner, you are far more restrained than I would be, but I guess that comes with being an Admin. Thanks again for this.