Not reported in the MSM: What Ahmadinejad did on Monday afternoon

[Holly_Hobby]

http://www.president.ir/en/

President Ahmadinejad meets Jewish rabbis in New York



President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Monday afternoon met with a group of Jewish rabbis who gave him a silver grail as a sign of friendship. The president is currently in New York to address the United Nations General Assembly.

The rabbis carried a placard which read, "I am Jewish not a Zionist." A senior rabbi of the group said that they considered the visit to New York of President Ahmadinejad as an exceptional opportunity and would never forget it. He referred to the Iranian president as a person who made a distinction between Jews and Zionists. "You understand us and make a distinction between the violent behavior of Zionists and the religious beliefs of Jews," said the senior rabbi who called President Ahmadinejad "a pious man who is seeking to restore peace in the world and has humanitarian plans." Appreciating the rabbis for their gift, President Ahmadinejad said he was happy to visit them.

"All people in the world have now understood that Judaism is different from Zionism," said the president. He added, "Zionists are a political group looking for taking advantage of the opportunities while Jews are the followers of the Moses who promoted peace and friendship."
President Ahmadinejad stressed that there was no disagreement between the followers of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as they all pray the same God and are brothers.

...

Official site of Presidency of the Islamic Republic of Iran News Service
http://www.president.ir/en /

Go to the website and click on the story. Then click on the picture for more pictures of meeting.

[snappyturtle]

1. Thank you. nt

[Holly_Hobby]

4. More pictures

He must be special, because when I met a Jewish Rabbi, he refused to shake my hand.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[riderinthestorm]

21. So it's okay to shake the hand of a guy who approves of stringing up gays

on a crane until they are dead but not okay to shake hands with a woman? And Holly is "ignorant" how?

[Bonobo]

26. Umm, wtf?

[riderinthestorm]

48. You imply that Holly (a woman) is "ignorant"

because she didn't get her hand shaken by an Orthodox rabbi (implied in your statement was that she didn't know that Orthodox men won't touch women like her).

My point was that these rabbis are fine with touching a criminal like Adminedinejad but cringe at touching someone like Holly.

And who is really "ignorant" in that comparison.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dorian Gray]

75. "These rabbis"

I'm sure are not the same rabbis.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

93. having lived next to ultra-orthodox,

and seeing how they treated their women, and my several girlfriends, I am surprised that no one has raised that issue before. Until I learned just how poorly treated women are by the ultra-orthodox, I would have never guessed.

Handshake? Hah. How about no eye contact, and saying curses about unclothed women sinners as they pass?

[piesRsquare]

157. You don't wanna know some of the other details

regarding what these kooks do.

[Dorian Gray]

185. That happens all the time!

(NOT!) Look, I live on the border of Crown Heights. I live in a community with a HUGE percentage of Orthodox Jews, and many of them are Lubovitch or some of the lesser known Messianic Jewish groups.

I have NEVER ONCE been cursed at or treated badly by those "kooks." :eyes: For the most part, they do leave me alone and don't pay much attention to me, as I am not Jewish nor do I follow their strict dress codes. But, I have never ever ever been cursed at or treated shabbily either. And it is unfair to call them "kooks" or tell stories about them when you have no interaction with them.

[Chovexani]

191. Don't they pray every morning thanking God they weren't born women?

I remember seeing that in a documentary on LOGO about GLBT Orthodox Jews.

[LittleClarkie]

135. I suspect it's out of modesty instead of an implication of being unclean

Perhaps they are guarding against their own sexual thoughts about a woman if that woman isn't their wife.

[piesRsquare]

163. Actually,

it's because men are not to have any physical contact with a woman while she's menstruating (yeah, even just her hand).

A man wouldn't know if a woman is menstruating or not, and he's not supposed to ask, and (of course) he can't trust her to be polite and refrain from touching others while she's menstruating, so the "safe bet" is to simply not touch women at all.

Women covering up is about guarding against sexual thoughts. The touching thing is a "clean/unclean", or rather "impurity" thing.

[leftynyc]

168. You do realize they wont touch any woman that's

not their wife, don't you?

[gaspee]

69. Of course

A man of god won't shake hands with a woman. Don't you know women are the source of all evil??? :sarcasm:

The one thing all these nutjobs have in common is their feelings about women. Sigh.

[Chovexani]

189. Gays: bringing organized religions together

:eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. "Fundamentalist" Jews Are No Different Than Other Fundamentalists

I knew this young woman, a convert, who was living in Israel who lectured an Orthodox rabbi on why he should embrace feminism...I heard this second hand but I found it hilarious...

[BrklynLib at work]

173. THA T is the truth!!! Fanaticism in ANY direction is dangerous...particularly since they usually

cling to the belief that their way is the ONLY right way..and have little or no tolerance for those that disagree.

[PDenton]

181. I would not say Orthodox are necessarily fundamentalists

the comparison with fundamentalist Christian or Muslims is not quite the same. Yes, they believe in more restrictive gender roles, very strict practices in their day to day lives, but they generally don't force their views onto other people. Judaism by its very nature is not a prosthyletizing religion.

Some Orthodox Jews are oppossed to the creation of the state of Israel being they believe the Messiah alone has the authority to do so, that Jews are atoning for their sins first before Israel is re-established (in this meme, Jews became a diaspora because of their sins or falling away from God). It is a religious difference for them. OTOH, the state of Israel was founded by secular-minded Jews, many of them irreligious. The religious settler movement in Israel/West Bank is a very wierd mixture of Orthodox/Conservative religious beliefs and secular nationalism.

[Holly_Hobby]

35. You're right

I didn't understand and I still don't.

[Bonobo]

40. Orthodox and ultra-orthodox is like a conservative branch.

Like fundamentalists. People that belong to it are not necessarily "rabbis". But the men are not allowed to touch a woman's hand.

A rabbi could be the rabbi of a very hip, ultra-liberal Reform community who has no beard and drives a Prius on Saturday mornings.

[Maraya1969]

156. Heck I am Buddhist and a I met a Rabbi on a dating site who wanted to go out

with me. I don't think it's going to happen because I got back with my x but I would have gone out with him.

There are crazy fundy Christians, crazy fundy Muslim and crazy fundy Jews. They are not representative of their religion. They are just bat shit crazy nuts and I think it is racist to label an entire religion after a few bat shit crazy nuts.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Don't Think An Orthodox Jew Is Allowed To Touch A Woman Other Than His Wife

eom

[stellanoir]

59. Yup that is true.

[madeline_con]

124. Orthodox= too good to touch infidels, women or other unclean

things?

My ignorance is such a problem sometimes. Enlighten me. :)

[freedom fighter jh]

171. Not "too good."

Someone said it above. It has to do with "uncleanliness," which is related to menstruation, as well as with modesty in sexual matters. Most women are assumed to be unclean all the time. If a woman is not Orthodox, she will not go through ritual cleansing after menstruation, and therefore is unclean all the time. Even if she is Orthodox, she is assumed to be unclean because she could be menstruating, or may not have cleansed herself afterward. Of course there is an exception for her husband, because he has to have some idea of when she is clean so that they can, you know.

There is an exception within a family. The touching rule is a protection to ensure that there is no real union during a time of uncleanliess. If there is no chance of that anyway, it does not apply. There is no restriction against a man touching his daughter, sister, or mother. In general, the rule does not apply to children, because they are not sexual.

[cali]

38. LOL.

this thread really is funny.

[Zandor]

54. Check out your source.

Sad that people so desperately want to believe this man is not an anti-Semite, they will post his propaganda.

[peacetalksforall]

91. Why don't you use a little more reason - how is everyone supposed

to know the intra-Rabbi squabbles. We know there are people in Israel who pursue peace, why not in this country. Why not educate instead of attack. This is getting to be a very sick thread. It is full of vitriol. There is no recognition of people who want peace. There is no honor given. This now appears to be a campaign to make sure no one on DU is hurting Israel. This campaign appears to be an effort to insult fellow DUers. What aggression. Way over board. Just like the threads yesterday.

[Zandor]

95. I questioned the source

and rightfully so.

These Rabbis are being used in Ahmadinejad's propaganda games.

[roguevalley]

106. that is the same rationale that bush uses not to do diplomacy.

you might 'reward' the 'bad guys' if you talk to them. fuck that. talk to everyone. it is the more pleasant alternative to bombing their innocent people.

[Freeusfromthechurch]

178. I second that roguevalley EOM

[DemocratSinceBirth]

101. Nothing Wrong With Working For Peace...

I think some folks are pointing out that those rabbis oppose the creation of the state of Israel on religious grounds ,Israel can't be established until the Messiah comes back, and they are not in the mainstream of Jewish thought...

It would be like saying George Herbert Walker Bush loved black people because he put Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court...

[piesRsquare]

158. These Rabbis are NOT "pursuing peace"!

These people are anti-Zionist because of their own right-wing, medieval religious agenda!

They are NO BETTER than the fundamentalist Christians that everyone here on DU despise so much!

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[frankf]

198. It doesn't really look like he is does he?

Sounds like he is against the state of Israel and not against Jews - which means he is not what people call an "anti semite". The subject of this thread is how this HASNT been reported in the mainstream media so complaining about it's source is a bit ironic. You could also question it if there were no pictures but they are in glorious technocolor.

[Mass]

2. Actually reported in Haaretz with context.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/906911.html

Neturei Karta welcomes Ahmadinejad
By Anshel Pfeffer

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad received a friendly welcome to New York from one Jewish organization: Representatives of Neturei Karta, the tiny anti-Zionist ultra-Orthodox sect, came to meet him and congratulate him on coming to the city.

This was the Neturei Karta delegation's third meeting with Ahmadinejad. Their previous meeting took place during his Holocaust denial conference in Tehran last year. Their participation in that event drew harsh reactions, and some delegates were later ostracized in the ultra-Orthodox community.
However, that failed to discourage at least some Neturei Karta members.

A spokesman for the anti-Zionists, David Weiss, said in a statement: "The Iranian president is a deeply religious man, who is committed to world peace based on mutual respect, decency and dialogue. Unfortunately, there are Jewish people today who seem to think that the appropriate Jewish response to enemies real and imagined is aggression, calls for violence, and attempts to drag other countries onto the warpath."

So, the Iranian government is as good as the Bush administration at PR? We already knew that.

[2rth2pwr]

7. Are they a pacifist group?

Sounds like it.

[Mass]

10. Nope - They are a group that believes that Israel is not in this world and has

opposed the creation of the state of Israel on purely religious grounds.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. They Are Waiting For The Messiah To Establish The Jewish State

eom

[madeline_con]

125. Well, let me just say they have a very good point.

Many Biblical scholars would agree.

And, since the Bible says Jerusalem will descend from the heavens, they need to stop freaking out over that, while they're at it.

I'll leave Zionists out of this post. Don't get me started...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. How have Iranian Jews been fairing under Ahmadinejad?

[Holly_Hobby]

5. I don't know. Do you? n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. No.

Seems relevant to the current discussion though.

[Bonobo]

14. Here you go.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html

" Following the overthrow of the shah and the declaration of an Islamic state in 1979, Iran severed relations with Israel. The country has subsequently supported many of the Islamic terrorist organizations that target Jews and Israelis, particularly the Lebanon-based, Hezbollah. Nevertheless, Iran's Jewish community is the largest in the Middle East outside Israel.

On the eve of Passover in 1999, 13 Jews from Shiraz and Isfahan in southern Iran were arrested and accused of spying for Israel and the United States. Those arrested include a rabbi, a ritual slaughterer and teachers. In September 2000, an Iranian appeals court upheld a decision to imprison ten of the thirteen Jews accused of spying for Israel. In the appeals court, ten of the accused were found guilty of cooperating with Israel and were given prison terms ranging from two to nine years. Three of the accused were found innocent in the first trial.5 In March 2001, one of the imprisoned Jews was released, a second was freed in January 2002, the remaining eight were set free in late October 2002. The last five apparently were released on furlough for an indefinite period, leaving them vulnerable to future arrest. Three others were reportedly pardoned by Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.6

At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago, most of them for either religious reasons or their connection to Israel. For example, in May 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was hanged in prison without a public charge or legal proceeding, apparently for assisting Jews to emigrate.7

Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second argest in the Middle East, after Israel. Reports vary as the the condition and treatment of the small, tight-knit community, and the population of Iranian Jews can only be estimated due to the community's isolation from world Jewry."

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

68. Gobbledy gook

Israel is a country like other countries not some super entity that controls the U.S. or is on a mission to destroy the world. Like other countries it has some profoundly objectionable polices: The occupation and oppression of Palestinians being foremost among them. Dozens of countries have done continue to do terrible things. Israel doesn't even stand out terribly in that group. It's simply one of many.

[LeftishBrit]

188. Very true!

[madeline_con]

126. I was under the impression that Zionist beliefs and those

self-proclaimed "Christians" who support it were behind the atrocities visited upon innocent Palestinians by the Israeli government.

Faith is not secondary enough, apparently. It's all based on some crazy mythology that both groups are brainwashed by. Come on, Rapture!

[piesRsquare]

160. Please do some research on "Practical Zionism"...

...sometimes referred to as "Modern Zionism".

The "Christian Zionists" and the bozos who cause problems in the territories are NOT modern Zionists.

The original Zionist doctrine (the whole "Euphrates or Tigris or whatever to the sea" crap) essentially went up the smoke-stack during World War II.

Chassidic Jews, "Modern" (yeah, right) Orthodox Jews (of the "settler variety") and "Christian Zionists" are the only Jews clinging to the biblical stuff.

I am a Zionist. I believe in and support the (continued) existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish State and homeland, with a united Jerusalem as its capitol.

I also believe in and support the (foundation of the) political platform of the (new) Kadima party, which is committed to establishing permanent borders for Israel in 2010, and involves ceding (all of Gaza and) over 90% of the territory in what is currently identified as the "West Bank" for the establishment of a Palestinian State.

Kadima is currently the ruling party in Israel, having won 63% of the vote (I believe that was the percentage) in the last election. Problem is, you wouldn't know it, seeing as how Olmert is royally fucking everything up and his popularity among Israelis is now at 3% (and no, that's not a typo--that's THREE PERCENT).

[rosesaylavee]

170. Thanks for the info

Hadn't heard about this before...

And pies are round, btw. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[LeftishBrit]

192. Not really...

Oppression of Palestinians is based on two things: self-interest and fear (with innocent Palestinians being easily lumped with terrorist groups). Especially the latter. Fear is one of the most powerful and corrupting emotions that humans have; and Israelis are as subject to it as anyone else, and have been at times given reason for it.

Religion plays only a relatively small role in this conflict.

[JackRiddler]

111. Was there anything to the spying charges? n/t

[Emillereid]

148. Now there's an unbiased source for ya'

[frankf]

199. Thats just a big paste there

Its not really a discussion is it - I would be debating with the probably biased web site you copied from.

for example you quote "At least 13 Jews have been executed in Iran since the Islamic revolution 19 years ago". Well, they execute a couple of hundred people a year (isnt execution so barbaric!) so is it as much as it seems especially since you say "Today, Iran's Jewish population is the second largest in the Middle East"

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. About As Well As African Americans In The Jim Crow South

Like other religious minorities in Iran Jews suffer from discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. According to the U.S. Department of State, Jews may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.<33>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

[cali]

34. Jews and other religious minorities are officially discriminated against

in Iran.

[liberation]

130. So does Israel...

Muslim citizens in Israel are 2nd class citizens in their own land.

Try being an openly gay African American atheist in the deep South and see how well you fare. Heck in some parts of the deep South up to recently there were 2 sports: Football and burning cross planting. Or if you reeeeally want to feel the love, try growing up in an Indian reservation with average infant mortality rates which rival some parts of Africa.

Our very own vice president was pushing on the 80s to label Mandela as a terrorist for having the gall to fight Apartheid.

Shit smells every where.


Iran's policies suck, however we lack most of the moral high ground to have the balls to accuse other people. Saying "ooops, sorry" or making moving pictures as a sort of mea culpa, with plenty of artistic licence to boot, only works if you have the psyche of a 12 yr old. Which judging by a lot of people I interact with in this country seems about right.

We have a looooong way to go to chew what's on our own plate before we focus the blame on other people's eating habits....

The funny thing is that Iran sucks, mostly because it is a theocracy. Which is the wet dream of most conservative Christians in this country if they were left on their own devices. Yet the Right goes apeshit antagonizing anything and everything Iran. The cognitive dissonance the past week has been deafening.

[Dorian Gray]

80. Most of the Jewish in Iran

left ages ago. I believe there are about 25,000-30,000 currently living in Iran, though not sure about the numbers. And they are treated as second class citizens.

Here is one article about it:

http://www.forward.com/articles/iranian-jews-reject-outside-calls-to-leave-1/

And Wikipedia has an interesting history of Persian Jews.

[madrchsod]

25. three links that may help you to form an opinion

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html
Jews of Iran

http://iranfreedomproject.blogspot.com/2006/07/irans-jews-dont-recognize-israel.html
Iran Freedom Project: 'Iran's Jews don't recognize Israel' - Jerusalem Post

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5367892.stm
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Iran's proud but discreet Jews

there are other links on both sides of the issue..

[Zandor]

49. Jews in Iran

Jews in Iran have constitutional rights equal to other Iranians, although they may not hold government jobs or become army officers. They have freedom of religion, but may not proselytize. Jews have a representative in parliament; this person is legally obligated to support Iran's foreign policy and anti-Zionist position. Jews, along with other Iranian citizens, can be criminally prosecuted and subject to the death penalty for supporting Israel. After the Islamic revolution in 1979, several Jews were executed for Zionism. In 1998, Jewish businessman Ruhollah Kakhodah-Zadeh was executed without charge. In 2000, 13 Jews including religious leaders in Shiraz were accused and imprisioned for spying for Israel, but were released after an international outcry...

Iran's official government-controlled media published the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in 1994 and 1999. It is unclear whether Jews stay in Iran because they are happy and comfortable there or because they are elderly and speak only Persian. Most pre-revolutionary Jewish schools and synagogues have closed. Jewish children still attend Jewish schools where Hebrew and religious studies are taught, but Jewish principals have been replaced by Muslim ones, the curricula are government-supervised, and the Jewish Sabbath is no longer recognized. Jews may use passports and visas to leave Iran, but those who apply must do so to a special bureau and are placed under surveillance. Whole families may not leave Iran together.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Iran#Jewish_issues

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. Most Jews With Means Split...

eom

[Zandor]

63. Quiet, you're upsetting those

desperately wanting to believe otherwise.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

67. Yeah, My Fiance From The Phillipines Worked For One In L A

Jews fared better in Muslim lands than they did in most of Christendom but they were never allowed , to the best of my knowledge, to have the same rights that Muslims have...

A funny story... When I was in grad school I had many Muslim friends...I had one from Morrocco...He confided in me that his mom was a Jewish convert but asked me not to tell the other Muslim grad students...

That being said... I come from a mixed background and try not to see religion , color, or sexual orientation... I just see people and try to find common ground with them...

[peacetalksforall]

94. Ridiculous

[kineneb]

116. most people with means split, like my parents.

since most people of means also backed the Shah, leaving was a healthy thing to do.

[robinlynne]

70. As far as I know, they all moved to los angeles.

[kineneb]

117. that's Tehrangeles, please :-)

probably second largest population of Iranians (of any faith) is in So.Cal. My Aunt is one of them.

[Emit]

155. I read recently that Iran's Jewish population is second largest in the ME, after Israel

And that prior to the Islamic revolution of 1979, it was double that.

I also came across this article a while back:

Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians Recognized by Government; Baha'is Not (Iran)
Dec 4, 2003
San Francisco Chronicle
On December 4, 2003 the San Francisco Chronicle reported, "Among its population of 70 million, Iran has about 25,000 Jews, 100,000 Christians and 60,000 adherents of Zoroastrianism, which was the religion of the Persian Empire before the Muslim conquest in the seventh century...Despite their small numbers, the three groups -- 'recognized minority religions' under the 1979 constitution -- are guaranteed five seats in the 290-member parliament. Jews and Zoroastrians get one seat each, Armenian Christians two, and Chaldean and Assyrian Catholics share one seat. They have their own schools, as well as churches, synagogues and temples. Unlike Iran's Muslims, men and women of these minority faiths are permitted to dance together in their clubs and to serve liquor -- as long as no Muslims are admitted to the premises... The Baha'is, Iran's largest religious minority, continue to face unapologetic persecution. A 19th century offshoot of Shiite Islam, the Baha'i faith is viewed as apostasy by the Shiite establishment. The estimated 300,000 Baha'is in Iran are denied permission to worship, hold office or carry out other communal affairs publicly or privately. They are banned from university education, they are denied most business and professional licenses, and their property is often confiscated."

Cited here: http://www.pluralism.org/news/article.php?id=5416&print

Original/Full Story: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/a/2003/12/04/MNG0Q3FQD31.DTL

[PDenton]

180. unfortunately the creation of Israel

created very bitter attitudes towards Jews all over the Middle East. In many cases Israel, while not supporting these attitudes, at least welcomed the influx of immigrants.

Islam, like Christianity, has a history of anti-Semitism. Jews in both Christian and Muslim countries often were forced to live in ghettoes, wear special clothing, and always reminded of their inferior status (in Muslim countries, this happened to Christians as well- the reverse, Muslims in European countries was almost unknown). In some medieval Muslim societies, however, they were allowed to advance socially somewhat. It was not until the late Reneissance and Enlightenment periods in Europe that Jews would achieve similar status there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. wow, where did this news go?

[snappyturtle]

13. Wouldn't you like to know. I doubt we'll see this presented by MSM.

It gives me hope to see different sides conversing with respectful recognition. This is a far cry from the reception Ahmadinejad received from the president of Columbia University! It gives me hope.

[Marrah_G]

72. It's not what you think

Check the source.

[Supersedeas]

97. stovepiped into the WH propoganda grinder

[helderheid]

9. Wow!

[nashville_brook]

11. well, that's interesting.

[cali]

43. I suggest reading the entire thread for just a wee bit

of perspecive: In a nutshell, these are ultra fundies who share a common interest with Ahmadinejad in seeing an end to Israel. He uses them for that purpose.

[Mass]

15. 11 recommends for that - Why?

It is akin to Bush's PR operation "Mission accomplished". "I meet with a few rabbis, so I am not antisemitic".

Some of you may remember that some Jewish people in Germany tried to deal with Hitler as well, so I guess he was not antisemitic either.

[peacetalksforall]

17. This is a beautiful moment for me. This is a peace step. This is

a learning experience - to hear Rabbis say there is a difference between being Jewish and being a Zionist. For Ahmadinejad to go there and shake hands.

I am very happy that you posted this. It is a wonderful gift to me.

I wish we could trumpet this story to every person in this country.

Jews have lived in Iran peacefully for long periods of time.

There are tolerant people everywhere who can say brother.

But, our brains are very washed.

Thank you. Thank you. I am elated.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. "Jews have lived in Iran peacefully for long periods of time."

Kind of like the way African Americans lived in the south between the end of the Civil War and the civil rights era...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Or now in Jena.

:shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Ha

As long as Jews in Muslim lands and African Americans in the Jim Crow South kept their "heads down" they were ok...

That's the lesson...

[mikelgb]

87. ding

[LittleClarkie]

133. Well, he didn't say this this period of time was included in one of those long periods

so perhaps we're just not talking about right this minute.

[cali]

50. This is pure propaganda

Let me make it simple"

Jewish fundies want an end to Israel unitl the Messiah comes. Ahmadinejad wants an end to Israel. Result: photo op and propaaganda.

[riderinthestorm]

52. I don't agree Higher Class.

This is PR of the worst kind, showing people whose common cause is to eradicate Israel. I'm sorry you don't recognize it for what it is.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madeline_con]

128. Well, now that you put it THAT way.

It's kind of a birds of a feather photo op?

[peacetalksforall]

66. I didn't know about this group's severe break with their own brothers.

This is disappointing to learn.

More links have to be fixed.

As to Jews living in Iran - there is history there - don't knock it. It wasn't all just under the Shah. There are minority religions in many countries.

I think relating my comment to Black-Americans living in the south is a reach.

If you don't believe that there are minority religions living safely under majority religions, give it a click.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. "f you don't believe that there are minority religions living safely under majority religions, give

it a click"


It's very rare and a relatively recent phemomenon...

[riderinthestorm]

77. There's a saying by Ben Franklin

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Yes, there is a history of Jews living in Muslim lands, even perhaps "safely", but not with any real freedom or rights.

[sabra]

18. They belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm

A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran's controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews - not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.

With their distinctive hats, beards and side locks, these men may, to the untrained eye, look like any other Orthodox believers in Jerusalem or New York. But the Jews who went to Tehran are different.

Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a Hasidic sect of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".

...

The book of Jewish law or Talmud, they say, teaches that believers may not use human force to create a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah.

...

Neturei Karta's views are regarded with abhorrence by most other Orthodox Jews, according to Rabbi Jeremy Rosen of the Yakar centre in London.

[cali]

19. LOL! People here complain about the MSM and yet have

no hesitation about posting pure propaganda. Context is important.

The reason he met with them and they with him, is simple: Their most profound interests intersect. This tiny sect wants to see an end to Israel. Ahmadinejad wants to see an end to Israel. And it's great propaganda for Ahmadinejad to seen with Jews. This group even attended the Holocaust Denial Conference in Tehran with David Duke and other luminaries of the Holocaust Denial World. (They don't actually deny the Holocaust. They're just batshit crazy waiting for the Messiah types.)

You know, it took me all of five minutes to do a little research. Try not accepting propaganda at face value next time.

Neturei Karta (Aramaic: נטורי קרתא, "Guardians of the City") is a Haredi Jewish group formally created in 1935, who oppose Zionism and call for a peaceful dismantling of the State of Israel, in the belief that Jews are forbidden to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah.<1> They are mostly concentrated in Jerusalem, but also in and around Ramat Bet Shemesh (near Jerusalem), and Bnei Brak. Others associated with Neturei Karta can be found in London, New York City,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

[Mass]

22. I am afraid some DUers show their profound ignorance in this thread.

It is also amusing that the WH website would be seen as total propaganda, but the Iranian president website would be taken without any questioning.

[Bonobo]

42. Imagine the ignorance in the rest of the US. OMG!

[Bonobo]

29. Thanks.

[Marrah_G]

37. makes me sick

DU is becoming more like the twilight zone by the hour.

[piesRsquare]

162. These same Haredi in Jerusalem

are notorious in Israel for flinging everything from spoiled food to feces at non-Haredi visitors to "their" area of town. Yeah, *tourists*.

The first time I travelled to Israel, I went with a youth group (I was a teenager). We visited Me'ah Sharim (Haredi area) as a group. Very, very hot summer afternoon, and we girls were sweltering under the long dresses and long sleeves we had to wear while in that vicinity. The boys found rest and shade, sitting on the front step of a Yeshiva. When two of the girls did the same, one of the teachers came charging out of the building, screaming at them in Yiddish, shooing them off the steps. No women on the steps of the Yeshiva!! So we got to stand.

We got to stand, in full view of a group of kindergarten-aged Haredim Yeshiva boys on a balcony who were spitting on us. For no less than 15 minutes, they spat at us. Oh--except for when one of the girls got (gasp) an ITCH on her knee, and pulled up her skirt slightly to scratch it, an elderly woman whacked the girl's legs with her cane and bitched her out in Yiddish.

Oh, what a lovely afternoon that was! At least it was educational.

Here's a tid-bit y'all might enjoy even more: These Chassidic/Haredi men do not--and I mean DO NOT--like to come into contact with women. These fellows are SO UPTIGHT about it, they make love to their wives through a hole in a sheet!

That's right! A hole is cut in a sheet--just "big" enough for Mr. Schlonger to fit through--and the man lays the sheet over his wife and Mr. Schlonger goes through "the hole" while the rest of his body doesn't make contact with her body!

How these guys perform circumcision is repulsive.

Yeah, REAL PROGRESSIVE these guys! Not!

[Bonobo]

23. I don't mean to rain on the parade here, but...

Please consider that there are many, many different Jewish groups and some are, ahem, a little less "mainstream" than others.
If this was a group of ultra-orthodox whackos who STILL oppose the creation of Israel based on their interpretation of the Torah, well... IF Ahmadenijad met with them specifcally BECAUSE they are anti-zionists, it is not exactly the same as seeking brotherhood with the mass of World Jewry.

[blondeatlast]

27. You do know anti-Zionist means anti-Israel, don't you? He met with a group that

supports his own views--how open-minded of him. :sarcasm:

And just for the record, I absolutely, 100% support a Palestinian state AND Israel.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

41. Trying to keep an open mind here, but a direct quote contradicts what you are quoting, below:

"The rabbis carried a placard which read, "I am Jewish not a Zionist.""

I apologize for my ingnorance regarding my post above, but am sincerely wanting clarification--how can one be what one visibly proclaims one is not?

[Poll_Blind]

46. "Jewish" is a religion, an ethnicity, a culture. Zionism is an idea some believe. n/t

PB

[robinlynne]

74. wow. if you think jews are all zionists, you need to read, and a lot.

[blondeatlast]

78. It comes directly from the OP. I know all Jews are not Zionists, but

read the OP again, and then my post.

It's a direct contradiction.

Edit: My bad--I'm interpreting both the quote Poll Blind referenced (from Lithos) and the OP, which seem to contradict each other.

[robinlynne]

84. no contradiction. My whole family is jewish and I have never even met a zionist.

kind of like thinking all white people belong to the kkk.

[Mass]

85. I guess is that the contradiction pointed to is between

Even Neturei Karta, the fringe extremist group are Zionists

in post 28

and the "I am Jewish non a Zionist" quote in the OP article...

I would guess that the poster is asking if the first statement, as stated somewhere else on DU, is an accurate description of the group.

[robinlynne]

98. sounds like he is saying jews are zionists.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. Depends On Your Definition Of Zionism

If Zionism is simply defined as the belief that Jews should have their own national homeland than I suspect large majorities of American Jews and non-Jews share that belief...

[piesRsquare]

166. Congratulations...

You just discovered the definition of "Modern Zionism", sometimes referred to as "Practical Zionism". I wrote a smidgen about it in another post somewhere on this thread (sorry--don't know the number of the post...it's around here somewhere!)

[truedelphi]

108. I find it hard to believe that your excellent post is still up

I beleive what you say is true - but thought this thought was not the DU party line

[DemocratSinceBirth]

153. Zionism Is Simply The Belief That Jews Should Have Their Own Homeland

I have met few people in the States , Jew or Gentile, who didn't believe that.

Have you met many people in the States who didn't believe Jews should have their own homeland?

[LeftishBrit]

194. I think the chances are that you have met some Zionists...

in the sense of people who think Israel should continue to exist. Most Jews and many non-Jews do think so. Not all Zionists support the Likud, the Occupation, or everything that Israel has ever done.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[blondeatlast]

90. Thanks--I honestly was confused, and admittedly pretty ignorant. nt

[Lithos]

197. You are correct

I was intentionally playing up the definition. I did so mostly because people were throwing around many definitions of what Zionism without understanding it's evolution and historical, cultural and modern usages. Your own citation of my post is guilty of this as you mixed interpretations from 1967 with today's modern usage. Zionism today while just as varied as 1967, the gestalt is completely different.

By pure definition, NK are Zionists as they support the notion of a return of Israel. Their main issue with modern Israel is the current state's establishment did not follow as a result of the Messiah's return. It is ironic and extremely mind-twisting that they would toast at Passover seder "Next Year in Jerusalem" while at the same time condone the actions of a petty man who besides denying the Holocaust is using his podium to threaten the modern state of Israel in a way that would destroy it and prevent this return. Yes, I know there is a technical difference between their views of today's Israel and what they think of a future Israel, in the end, there is no difference in that they support the idea of Israel reborn and that they too desire a Jewish Israel.

Personally, I wonder why people cherry pick one item about the NK without stopping to consider the whole. The sectarian beliefs of the NK are generally extremely homophobic (advocating violence), bigoted (not only towards women, but also including believe it or not, forms of holocaust denial where "Jews" were complicit), and generally at violent odds with most of modern society and with modern Jewish theology (even more so when you realize a sizable number of Jews are secular). When raised up as they are as an example of "Jews" who are against Zionism, it makes me wonder if people realize just how offensive this is.

[cali]

110. if you don't think that the majority

of jews and in fact the majority of Americans are zionists, you have a lot of reading to do. i'm not jewish, and i support isreal's existence. as far as i understand it, that makes me a zionist. granted i oppose the occupation and oppression of the palestinian people, and believe that israel should withdraw from the west bank, etc, but i don't want to see israel disappear as a nation.

[madeline_con]

129. Read Herzl

Then you'll know what "Zionism really means".

[PDenton]

182. Zionism in the usual sense

refers to the secular movement supporting a Jewish state in formerly-British Palestine. This is the meaning that Arab critics usually use when they talk about "Zionism".

In the religious sense, alot of religious Jews could be considered "Zionists", since the belief that the Messiah will return and create a modern Jewish state is traditional in Judaism (hence the saying "Next year in Jerusalem"). This is not the usual meaning of Zionism.

[the other one]

30. I deny that meeting took place. Only jews who hate him are real.

I am getting sick to my stomach.

Fuck free speach anyway, its highly overrated. It should only be used to agree with the conventional wisdom anyway.


SARCASM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Bonobo]

33. Please read this entire thread. You are purchasing very cheesy propoganda.

[Poll_Blind]

36. You know, I'd find that funny if I hadn't read that sentiment (but meant SERIOUSLY)...

...on this board, many times, in the I/P forum.

PB

[DemocratSinceBirth]

44. Don't Light Any Matches Near Your Strawman

Inferring from a meeting that Mr. Ahmadinejad had with a fringe group of anti-Israel Jews that Ahmadinejad is a friend of the Jewish people is as ludicrous as inferring that Strom Thurmond was a friend of the African people because he voted for Clarence Thomas' appointment to the Supreme Court and hired Armstrong Williams as a staffer...

Just keeping it real ...Has nothing to do with the I/P situation...Just putting things in context...

[cali]

61. How do you like

being a tool of propaganda?

[rateyes]

32. From the same article:

"The president said the future belongs to the monotheist faiths and that liars would be eliminated."

Guess who the "liars" are. And, how does "elimination" of those who disagree, promote peace?

I like everything that was said, up until that line.

That is a call for Jews, Christians, and Muslims to join together to "eliminate" everybody else. Sorry, as a Christian, I don't subscribe to that. That's fundamentalism any way you shake it.

And, it's my contention, that Zionists (not all Jews) feel the same way (eliminate them) about those who disagree with them. And, that fundamentalist Christians feel the same way about Muslims.

My how fundy religion justifies all kinds of evil.

[cali]

81. It's always been my understanding

that a zionist is someone who believes in a homeland for the Jewish people. And it's also my understanding that the vast majority of Jews are Zionists. There are very liberal zionists who oppose the occupation and may not even be remotely religious. Lots of them. There are far right fundy zionists, but zionist does not=fundy.

[Usrename]

145. I honestly don't think I get your interpretation here, cali.

You seem to be fine with a theocratic state when the religion is Judaism, but against it when the religion is Islam.

Do I have this right? If I don't have it right, please believe me that it is just an honest mistake.

[cali]

184. Israel is a theocracy the way England

is a theocracy- roughly. There are lots of minority religions in Israel. You can find mosques and churches. There is, in brief, freedom to worship as you wish. You won't be thrown in jail for being a Muslim or Christian, unlike, say Saudi Arabia. Is it perfect? Hell no, and I'm not saying that.

And no, I'm not against Muslim states. Can't say I have much use for even the small t theocracy of Israel, but large T theocracies exist and that's their business.

[piesRsquare]

167. You got it right

What you're describing is (basically) "Modern Zionism", which has also been referred to as "Practical Zionism".

Another post of mine upthread says a smidgen about it.

The "far right fundy Zionists" are (basically) clinging to the original Herzlian Zionist doctrine, which essentially bit the dust after WWII.

The "(Jewish) far left anti-Zionists", such as the bozos featured in the OP, are clinging to the (literal) Talmudic teaching.

[IsItJustMe]

176. I think you are missing the entire religious aspect of the argument. A prevalent belief among

, what I would consider fundamentalist Christians, is that the state of Israel is ordained by god, and that the formation of the Israel is evidence that Jesus will return, and thus rule with his chosen people, the Israelites. This all takes place in the end-of-times. Thus, prophesy fulfilled.

This to me is the true definition of Zionism and has been around for a long time.

[leftofthedial]

45. damned Israel-hating, Jew-hating,

holocaust-denier-loving rabbis

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. The Jewish Equivalent Of Clarence Thomas And Armstrong Williams

But their motivation is coming from a different place...

[Poll_Blind]

60. That's a nasty comment to make about them, considering they're just being Orthodox Jews. n/t

PB

[cali]

73. Your ignorance is showing.

They aren't just being Orthodox Jews. They're repudiated by the Orthodox. They were formed for one reason- to oppose the existence of Israel. No wonder they get along so well with Ahmadinejad.

I don't think your a tool of propaganda here. That leaves it open to other conclusions.

[Poll_Blind]

79. But the "Orthodox" you refer to don't recognize OTHER Jewish sects (Reform, Conservative) either.

So what kind of point are you supposed to be making?

PB

[Chulanowa]

151. So in order to be Jewish, one has to accept a 100% political idea?

And their opposition to Israel means that they're "not really Jews"?

Lemme guess, you're one of the people who debate how "black" Barak Obama is, too.

[piesRsquare]

164. Um...where did you get that from?

I don't see anything of the sort in the post to which you are replying...

[cali]

183. Lemme guess

you insist that Clarence Thomas represents the vast majority of African-Americans.

[Chulanowa]

186. Not at all

In fact, I don't recall signing my support of these Rabbis. But I'm not going to sit back and use a political, secular question to decide their Jewishness. The message I'm getting is that, since they don't accept the existance of Israel as a political entity rather than a spiritual one, they aren't really Jewish.

"They are repudiated by other orthodox"? Good for the other orthodox, what, exactly does it count for? Did someone die and leave them in charge?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Hence The Remark About Their Motivation

Their motivation is their religion or their interpetation of their religion... They are the same folks who throw rocks at cars in Israel that drive on the Sabbath, cover up posters of bikini clad women at bus stops, and oppose Gay pride parades in Jerusalem...

They actually make good counterparts to the the mullahs and our fundamentalists...

In the case of Armstrong Williams I believe he is doing it for pecuinary gains...

[Poll_Blind]

82. You're attempting to indict Orthodox Jewry in general, NOT the Neturei Karta.

  For your rock-throwing, Gay pride parade squelching, poster-covering-up Jewry, it's the bulk of mainstream Orthodox Judaism you're talking about. The Neturei Karta do not practice that violent repressive shit. They...GASP actually believe in live and let live.

PB

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. There Are Orthodox Jews In Israel That Oppose The Creation Of A Jewish State

Their children are exempt from the armed forces... I don't fully understand the mental gymnastics it takes for someone who lives in a state whose basis he or she doesn't believe in ...

We're getting sidetracked... They no more reprsent mainstream Jewish opinion than Fred Phelps represnts mainstream Christian opinion or Clarence Thomas represents mainstream African American opinion...

[Poll_Blind]

92. Actually, your confusion is not a-typical. A micture of economic need and the desire...

...to flee from political prosecution elsewhere led to many of Israel's citizens (again, pre '67) living in Israel but actually at odds with the creation of the nation on a religious point which has now been popularly ignored/discarded through various, much looser "interpretations", of the supreme creator's word.

PB

[cali]

58. LOL

That sect was formed in opposition to Israel. They're waiating for the Messiah and believe that Israel can't exist until he arrives. They don't deny the Holocaust, but they were nutty enough to go to the Holocaust denial conference.

People buying into this are simpler dupes than those who bough into bushies "mission accomplished".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

64. They Remind Me Of The Iraqi National Congress In Exile That Bush* Palled Around With

eom

[Bonobo]

65. Really cheesy Propoganda. How does it taste? Seriously? You had a bellyful.

[frankf]

200. Thanks you made me LOL.

[blondeatlast]

62. What President Bush did to help debt-riddled homeowners (Look, ma, no propaganda here...)

Note the background with all the chart indicators going UP:

Fact Sheet: New Steps to Help Homeowners Avoid Foreclosure
On Friday August 31, 2007, President Bush Announced Steps At The Federal Level To Help Homeowners In Need Of Assistance Avoid Foreclosure. These steps will help homeowners having difficulty paying their mortgages and ensure that the problems now disrupting the housing industry do not happen again. The fundamentals of America's economy are strong – economic growth is healthy, wages are rising, and unemployment is low. The markets are in a period of transition as participants are re-assessing and re-pricing risk. One area that has shown particular strain is the mortgage market, particularly the subprime sector.

I know BS when I smell it--and there's an awful lot of it to be found in ANY leader's surroundings.

[blondeatlast]

83. White House website--is it news or propaganda?

I would consider it propaganda, as I do Ahmadinejad's official site.

[The Stranger]

96. Did this really happen? Was it recent?

[Poll_Blind]

99. Yep, two days ago. n/t

PB

[onenote]

102. some clarifications about "orthodox" Judiaism

First, within the body of Jews who would describe themselves as "orthodox" there is a wide range of beliefs, both social and religious (and political for that matter). There is no single "orthodox" movement to which everyone subscribes with identical rules. Different groups who describe themselves as orthodox have different rules and individuals within those groups may vary somewhat in their adherence to or practice of those rules. (The same can be said for "conservative" and "reform" Jews -- I know conservative Jews who keep a kosher home and don't eat pork or shellfish, and I know Jews that attend conservative synagogues, identify themselves as part of the conservative movement but do not keep kosher in any way, and I know a lot of people who fall in between. Also I know Jews affiliated with all three movements (orthodox, conservative, reform) who are Democrats, who are repubs, and who are independents.

As for the "touching" issue raised upthread. Again, there is a variation in practice. Some groups that identify themselves as orthodox adhere to a rule that an unmarried man and woman should not touch at all. Other groups that identify themselves as orthodox are less strict and permit touching that is not "romantic" in nature -- a business handshake is allowed for example. And I know Jews that attend Orthodox synagogues that date and hold hands and otherwise behave in a number of ways indistinguishable to non-Orthodox Jews.

Finally, the group that met with Ahmadinehad, as has been indicated in other posts, is a small,group that is not representative of most Jews or even most Orthodox Jews, even as varied as those groups may be.

[peacetalksforall]

103. Recommendations for this thread are a grand mistake.

The ugliness in this thread is my regret for the morning.

I don't recommend this thread to anyone, except for -

a few people who sincerely provided helpful information in a non-insulting way.

[Poll_Blind]

104. Uh, that's fine but I recommended for the OP, not the replies. I think others use the same...

..criteria.

PB

[cali]

105. That someone as bright

and informed as you, voted for a blatant piece of propaganda, says it all.

[robertpaulsen]

107. Recommended. Brilliant example of how myopic MSM is.

Watching their "fair and balanced" coverage has given confirmation of how deeply in the pockets of the War Party they really are.

[cali]

109. um.

so do you always believe propaganda?

[robertpaulsen]

118. Yes, and I still beat my wife too.

I'd tell you to direct the question at yourself, but I'm really not interested in your response. I'm putting you on ignore. :boring:

[mod mom]

112. funny...I must have missed this on the corporate media coverage.

[cali]

115. What's funny is that people are falling for the purest PROPAGANDA

from Ahmadinejad's website while criticizing the MSM for propaganda. This actually makes the MSM look good- and that's hard to do.

If you're interested in the actual truth, here it is, in a nutshell:

These Rabbis are from a very, very small fundamentalist sect formed in opposition to Israel, because they don't believe that Israel should exist until the arrival of the Messiah. Thus, they have found common ground with Ahmadinejad, because he doesn't think Israel should exist either.

He's using them for a photo op, about as meaningful as bush under the "Mission Accomplished" banner.

In short, you couldn't find more blatant propaganda if you tried.

[WilyWondr]

143. Neturei Karta is their name

"These Rabbis are from a very, very small fundamentalist sect formed in opposition to Israel, because they don't believe that Israel should exist until the arrival of the Messiah."

"For the most part, the members of Neturei Karta are descended from Hungarian Jews who settled in Jerusalem's Old City in the early nineteenth century, and from Lithuanian Jews who were students of the Gaon of Vilna, who had settled earlier. In the late nineteenth century, their ancestors participated in the creation of new neighborhoods outside the city walls to alleviate overcrowding in the Old City, and most are now concentrated in the neighborhood of Batei Ungarin and the larger Meah Shearim neighborhood."

http://www.nkusa.org or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

In the time you spent spewing misinformation you could have actually learned something about them.

[Megahurtz]

113. Well Surprise, Surprise

to all those uninformed that believe that Ahmadinejad "hates Jews".
You've been buying right into the BushInc. Propaganda.

[superkia]

114. Very cool post. And now our country will bomb thousands over there!

If you are a Clinton supporter who thought she really didn't know the war in Iraq was about oil and money, do you believe it now? A vote that will probably kill thousands of innocent Iranians and for what? Why is it that Dennis Kucinich was the only person to stand up back in 2002 and see that it was about and voted against it after saying thats what it was? Why do we continue to believe the lies of many of our politicians when they continue to do what is good for them and the corporations, not the people.

I hope more people really look inside themselves before making that primary vote because we need to end this type of governing. The people should come before the money and thats why I respect Kucinich for standing up and calling it like it is on so many important issues that we are faced with. I don't see it from the other candidates and I hope others take notice of this before its too late.

[Recursion]

119. Yeah, but these were the guys that went to the Holocaust "conference" in Tehran

Though in fairness they were very explicit in saying that the Holocaust happened (Ahmadi-Najad, incidentally, has said it happened also); they just don't think the Holocaust should be used as a justification for the premature (by their theology) creation of a worldly state of Israel.

[ooglymoogly]

120. rec

[ooglymoogly]

121. This kind of information is on total lockdown by corporate news

Their parents are salivating on the huge profits in the coming invasion of Iran. Just look at defense related stocks on the board after the recent saber rattling.

[Name removed]

122. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

123. That's just ridiculous

Rabbi Lerner is one of the greatest peace activists in this country. He's a zionist, in that he favors a two state solution. Same goes for Noam Chomsky, hardly people anyone should be calling "horrifically warped". Anyone who supports a Jewish state existing is a zionist. Within Israel itself are thousands and thousands of peace activists working with Palestinians against the occupation and for the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.

Your ignorance is sad and your statement slurs millions of people. It's no different than the ugly characterization Islamofascist.

Yes there are right wing zionists whose ideology is horrifically warped, but that's not all people who support a Jewish homeland.

[alittlelark]

131. Zionism is a destructive ideology... not supported by most Jews

Including my husband.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism#Rise_of_modern_political_Zionism

[cali]

132. Sorry. That's not only not true, it's

patently not true. From the wiki article you cite:

While most Jewish groups are pro-Zionist, some liberal and Haredi Jewish communities (most vocally the Satmar Hasidim and the Neturei Karta group), oppose Zionism on religious grounds

In fact, there's nothing in the wiki article you cite that backs up your claim that zionism is not supported by most jews. And there are plenty of polls that say the exact opposite. Maybe you should read the wiki article, which explains that there are many kinds of zionism.

[alittlelark]

134. There are many types of Zionism... but the fundamentalist whacko

version is the one our neocons LOVE. You do know that Israel is as divided as this country is - I assume.

The whacko neocon Zionists are the ones that believe that stealing land and power from others is GOOD (Imperialism).


Who killed Yhitzahk Rabin?

[cali]

138. And that's what I was saying in my posts

thanks for revising your initial statement.

[alittlelark]

141. What posts? I was responding to the OP when you got all

freaky.

[NoGodsNoMasters]

139. It's a complex issue...

Zionism, is not necessarily the Issue, I wouldn't dream of suggesting that Israelis should be cast out like the palestinians, two wrongs don't make a right, the issue is the Likud party EXTREMIST Zionism which unfortunately is the prevailing policy in the Israeli govt. Unfortunately, many jewish groups overlook the glaring humanitarian issue here, I think many support it simply because it gets such little press coverage here, as opposed to europe where it's well known, so they aren't aware of secret prisons, homes being demolished, medical camps bombed. This is something many jews need to come to grips with. (Incidentally the reason why i boycott the Anti-Defamation League) There is a modified peace proposal that would demand a CEASEFIRE on BOTH sides and ensure palestinian and Israeli safety and living space, that even Hezbollah (The crazy anti-semites who want to exterminate all jews.) have grudgingly agreed to accept. This is supported by most of the UN, and is blocked by Bush and the far right Israeli govt. There is a movement for peace within israel as well as without if our government could reach out to those voices instead of ardently supporting the most violent factions peace IS possible. This would also do a great deal towards acheiving peace in the region and remove a crucial propaganda tool for militant anti-americanists.

[piesRsquare]

161. The Likud party is not extremist Zionism

Trust me, there are other parties in the Knesset that are a lot more extreme.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alittlelark]

142. How creative!!!!

[LeftishBrit]

193. No they're not; they are a very diverse group

ALL that Zionism means is a belief in the existence of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East.

Most of the original Zionists were socialist.

A Zionist can believe that Israel should expand, or that it should return to its pre-1967 borders. They can be strong campaigners for equal rights for Israeli Arabs, or they can be totally bigoted against Arabs.

Members of parties to the right of the Likud are Zionists. So are supporters of Peace Now and similar groups.

To say all Zionists are like Neo-Cons is like saying that all Americans are Neo-Cons, or that all supporters of a Palestinian state are terrorists. Simply not true!

[Scurrilous]

127. Ahmadinejad Meets Clerics, and Decibels Drop a Notch

<snip>

"After two days of prickly confrontations with critics at Columbia University and the United Nations, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran held a friendly, even warm, exchange yesterday with Christian leaders from the United States and Canada convinced that dialogue is the only way to prevent war.

The session, held under tight security at a chapel across the street from the United Nations, was a reminder that Mr. Ahmadinejad is a religious president of a religious nation who relishes speaking on a religious plane. He spent his 20 allotted minutes at the start of the two-hour meeting recounting the chain of prophets central to Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and the commonality of their messages.

He took questions from a panel that included a Quaker, a Catholic, an Anglican, a Baptist and a representative of the interfaith World Council of Churches, some of whom separately said they had been criticized by other religious leaders for sitting down with the Iranian president. Given the furor over Mr. Ahmadinejad’s earlier appearances, there was no advance publicity.

The gathering, which included an audience of about 140 other religious leaders, was organized by the Mennonites and Quakers, churches known for their commitment to pacifism.

The organizers said that they had pressed hard to find a Jewish leader to join the panel of questioners, but that those invited declined because they could not win support from Jewish organizations.

"My heart was broken that there was so little support from other religions to be here,” said Mary Ellen McNish, general secretary of the American Friends Service Committee, a Quaker group that helped sponsor the event. “If we don’t walk down this path of dialogue, we’re going to end up in conflagration."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/27/world/middleeast/27clerics.html?ref=world

[cali]

140. Now that's a valuable story

and that really should be posted as an OP. Please do it.

[Baby Snooks]

146. My heart is broken...

My heart is broken that there was any support from anyone for a man who has repeatedly denied the reality of the Holocaust, has repeatedly stated Israel has no right to exist, and who oppresses his own people on the basis of a fundamentalist ideology that seeks, as does all fundamentalism, to establish itself as the sole truth and the sole divine truth. And who has no hesitation in executing those those who don't accept it. Including Jews and Christians. Today he shakes your hand. Tomorrow he hangs a noose around your neck. You are an infidel.

Anyone believing peace is possible through fundamentalism would be wise to watch Christiane Amanpour's "God's Warriors" again.

[siri2k]

144. K&R. n/t

[Hoof Hearted]

147. There is more to this interatction I am sure than most people wish to accept out of hand

Ahmadinejad has some seriously loose stairs in his staircase, he's proved that well.

I did sit and listen to his entire UN speech and I was struck by how many times he invoked love, compassion and positive feeling. It was a hell of a contrast to Prezdint Terra. I find the entire situation - complicated. Ahmadinejad does not hold the true power in his country, the Grand Ayatollah does.

Right now to me, Ahmadinejad and Bush appear cut from the same cloth. Different offenses, different levels and forms of denial but the same basic underlying personalities employing different methods to the same ends.

[Jack_Dawson]

149. Newsflash: Propaganda!

:eyes:

[JCMach1]

150. Yes, but now you must separate their propaganda from the AIPAC/CNN/FOX cabal

Seems to me we need a reality based foreign policy now more than ever.

[mhatrw]

152. I can't believe this pure propaganda has 50 recs.

This show of Iranian/Jewish friendship is the equivalent to Bush reading The Pet Goat on 9/11.

[cynatnite]

154. Oh, a photo op to show he's a good guy...

like no other head of state has ever done that before :sarcasm:

[Goat52a]

159. He does have balls

More then Bush. I don't like him, but he went into the Dragons breath....

[Heidi]

165. With all due respect, this WAS reported in the MSM a day before you started this thread.

http://news.google.ch/nwshp?oe=UTF-8&hl=en&tab=wn&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1121267885

[RufusTFirefly]

169. Where's the photo of him skating around the rink, holding the cup aloft? n/t

[LynneSin]

172. That's a lovely picture but at worst he's a holocaust denier and at best...

...he's an enabler of holocaust deniers.

I'm not saying we should ever bomb Iran, but he is also not top on my list of favorite world leaders either

[aintitfunny]

174. I am so sick of this crap.

why bother to respond substantively to such blatant propaganda. Don't like it when my country does it, why would I fall for it when another country does it.

[kenfrequed]

175. You know

I was just telling some people that posts on Ahmadinejad and how terrible he is serve the pro war thing by keeping him in the news.

I would likewise prefer that we don't put up silly posts like this either.

[Gonnuts]

177. If there is a God ...

He surly must be laughing (or more likely crying) his ass off at all the insane things men have done in his name and the absolute backwards, mind-numbingly stupid rules and rituals laid down by organized religion that billions of people seem to blindly follow.

What fools us mortals be, indeed.

[ejbr]

179. Whatever,

I thought he might have gone to a gay bath house.

[LeftishBrit]

187. These Jewish rabbis are extreme religious anti-Zionists; that's probably the reason

They don't believe in the state of Israel, because they think such a state should not have been established before the coming of the Messiah.

Though this view is not the norm among Orthodox Jews, there are a few groups who share it. Most of them just go their quiet way, following their religious practices and ignoring the state. Neturei Karta are unique in being prepared to associate with people who are anti-Zionist on very different (anti-semitic) grounds. Which is their right; but they're not exactly typical of Jews as a whole, nor does Ahmadejinad's meeting with them indicate that he loves Jews.

[mdmc]

190. wow - awesome link

WILDTOWN!

[NeedleCast]

195. Still Looking For A Reason To Jump Into Bed With This Guy?

Amazing. I find it hard to imagine someone less progressive than Ahmadinejad, but there's still plenty here on DU looking for a reason to make him a good guy because he speaks out against Bush.

This is pure propaganda, as anyone who bothered to actually read this thread will see. Judging from some of the reponses, many didn't. Just goes to show there are plenty in our own camp that will blindly support someone without even a bit of fact checking assuming that someone holds a similar position to their own on a certain issue.

Thanks to all those upthread who shed the light of truth on this stunt.

[Lurking Dem]

196. The only reason

Bush and Ahmadinejad hate each other is because when they look into each other's eyes, they see themselves.

They are two peas in a pod.