Breast-Feeding Mom Gets More Time For Test - She wins!!

[Breeze54]

Yeah!! Good for her and all the other breast feeding Moms!!

`````````````````````````````````

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/14210329/detail.html">Court: Breast-Feeding Mom Gets More Time For Test

Woman Wanted Extra Break Time To Pump Milk

POSTED: 1:15 pm EDT September 26, 2007

BOSTON --

A Harvard student must be allowed extra break time during her nine-hour medical licensing exam
so she can pump breast milk to feed her 4-month-old daughter, a Massachusetts appeals court judge
ruled Wednesday.



Sophie Currier, 33, sued after the National Board of Medical Examiners turned down her request
to take more than the standard 45 minutes in breaks during the exam. She said she risks medical
complications, including engorgement and inflammation, if she does not nurse her daughter, Lea,
or pump breast milk every two to three hours.

A Superior Court judge last week rejected Currier's request to order the board to give her an
additional 60 minutes of break time. Appeals Court Judge Gary Katzmann overturned that ruling,
finding that Currier needs the extra break time to put her on "equal footing" with the men and
non-lactating women who take the exam.

The board had cited the need to be consistent in the amount of break time given and said
other nursing mothers who have taken the exam have found 45 minutes in breaks sufficient.

But Katzmann said that amount of break time was "insufficient" for Currier to nurse her baby, properly
express breast milk, eat, drink and use the restroom over the course of the nine-hour exam.

Without extra break time, Currier would have to choose between pumping breast milk and ignoring
her bodily functions or foregoing pumping and causing herself significant pain, the judge said.

More at link....

I think it's ridiculous that in 2007, women have to fight every inch of the way, just to breast feed their babies!

[Warpy]

1. If consistency is so goddamned important

why not raise the break times across the board? I'm sure frazzled test takers would appreciate it, not just nursing mothers.

Oh, that never occurred to them. They were too busy whining about the "special case."

[Breeze54]

2. Of course and it struck me funny that it was MEN

who have never breast fed, saying that she didn't need anymore time than any of the others!

Just take a look at this POLL ongoing today!

A court ruled that a medical student must be allowed extra break time during her medical
licensing exam so she can pump breast milk to feed her 4-month-old daughter. Do you agree?

The poll is on the right, near the middle of the page.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/nationalnews/index.html


---------------


Choice ---- Votes ------ Percentage of 202 Votes

Yes --------- 41 ---------------- 20%

No --------- 155 ---------------- 77%

Unsure ------- 6 ----------------- 3%

Thank you for your response.

:silly:

[KittyWampus]

30. I'm female. And it's not a 'win' for breastfeeding. It's a concession to a narcissist who thinks

the world revolves around her.

Look, she choose to have a baby. There are choices that follow that. Choices that require one to pick their priorities.

The RULES should apply to everyone.

She could have waited for the next test. Which is held several times a year.

But no, it's all about her and her imaginary right to have everything she wants RIGHT FUCKING NOW.

[Breeze54]

39. Rules are made to be broken, especially rules

set up by a paternalistic school that favors men!

Harvard is not a liberal college.

[mondo joe]

42. Is it supposed to be fair to women to give one woman more time than all the others?

?

Edit to add: the rules aren't made by Harvard anyway.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

44. How does this favor men?

I'm sure the majority of test takers in this class are woman just like they are in almost every college in the nation. Check the calender the year begins with a 2.

[Breeze54]

49. I remember when Harvard finally began admitting women!

It wasn't that long ago and that last President of Harvard, now "retired", that made
a speech about how women can't learn math and science, was only a few years ago.

Most of the work rules were written by and for men, as they were dominant in the workforce
as they were in colleges. Some of those archaic 'rules' are still on the books.

[mondo joe]

52. Harvard didn't make this rule. And the male/female ratio in medical school

has become increasingly balanced - it is presently nearly 50/50.

[sir_captain]

188. Actually, there are more women than men in med school

and it has been that way for a number of years.

[hyphenate]

75. You are failing to understand

that Harvard has absolutely NOTHING to do with the licensing exam she is taking. It's the STATE and the FEDERAL government licensing board. Whether Harvard is conservative or liberal has NOTHING, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA to do with the test.

[Goblinmonger]

129. That's crap

My wife gave birth to our daughter during her last semester of law school. She took the bar exam that summer while my daughter was still nursing. She didn't get any extra time to pump; she did it right alongside all the other men and women taking the test. She did just fine.

[Breeze54]

137. Yes, your wife's lack of problems must be everyone's, right?

How do you know for sure she wasn't uncomfortable during the test?
Was it nine hours? Maybe she just was afraid to speak up.

Maybe she didn't have much milk. I have no idea.

[Ilsa]

61. Maybe she needs to pass the exam so she can go to work. She may

have loans to repay. Breasts aren't spigots. The potential for developing mastitis is real.

Regardless of that, if society wants women to continue to make "replacement units", then some concessions are needed, IMO.

As for an extra hour, it seems about right for three pumping session totalling 20 minutes each. It doesn't seem to be abusive.

[hyphenate]

74. Actually

she chose to have TWO babies--one is 22 months, the other is 4-5 months. I really can see a "career" developing here, don't you?

[Blashyrkh]

140. Good post. Agreed.

[Gormy Cuss]

23. I agree with you.

Much of the process of qualifying as a physician in this country is bordering on sadistic.

[MrCoffee]

3. good for her...but you left out part of the story

"Currier, who also has a 22-month-old son, already has received special accommodations under the Americans with Disabilities Act for dyslexia and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, including permission to take the test over two days instead of one."

so it really wasn't 9 hours in one day. just sayin'.

[Breeze54]

4. I didn't leave anything out.

DU doesn't allow posting the whole story, verbatim. I provided a link to the rest of the story.
Glad to see that you read it. Her disabilities have nothing to do with her breast feeding.

From the articles, her exam time is nine hours on next Monday!

A 45 minute break in nine hours is NOT enough time to eat lunch, use the restroom and pump!

snip--> http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/14100539/detail.html

"Because it's physically impossible for a nursing mom to go nine hours or nine and a half hours
without expressing milk, I told them that they were putting me in a position of choosing between
nursing my child and taking this exam and advancing my career," Currier said.

Currier has already overcome serious obstacles in her life -- dyslexia and attention deficit
hyperactivity disorder. To fight this obstacle, she is suing the licensing board, alleging discrimination.

"I think that it's actually discriminating against women because men don't have to do this job.
No male will ever have to face this problem of deciding between feeding their child and taking
an exam," Currier said.

An attorney for the board said, "We can't have an ad hoc preference for Sophie Currier.
It wouldn't be fair to others taking the test or to the public."

But Currier said one of the things that bothers her the most is what she calls the hypocrisy
of the board's position.

"The medical community is putting a huge effort out -- or portions of the medical community --
to encourage women to breastfeed. If we are to breastfeed we need to be accommodated to do so,"
Currier said.

[Gormy Cuss]

18. The earlier ADA accomodation broke the test up over 2 days

so notwithstanding the question of how much break time is needed for breastfeeding reasons, it was not the case that she was facing a 9 1/2 hour exam with only 45 minutes of break time because of the previous ADA ruling. That decision was to allot 45 minutes on each of two days. I've yet to see any breakdown of how many hours of exam time she would face each day but the even amount of break time suggests it was a fairly even split, or 4.5 to 5 hours each day.

So the additional hour means that she now has one hour and forty-five minutes of break time during the course of a five hour exam.

Boston Globe article on today's ruling:
http://www.boston.com/yourlife/health/blog/2007/09/judge_orders_ex.html

[Breeze54]

22. With her disabilities, the test will take her longer than

those that do not have those disabilities, and then breast feeding on top of that.

As poster #1 said, adding more break time to the test across the board would seem
like a good idea but I have no problem with her or anyone else having accommodation's.
Not everyone it cut by the same cookie cutter.

[Gormy Cuss]

31. I haven't seen any mention that they will allocate her more time for the test modules.

I have yet to see it mentioned in any article. If she is in fact expected to require two 9 1/2 hour periods as her accommodation than arguing for more break time would make sense, but it also strikes me as odd that they would double the available testing time as an accommodation since they're so stuck on having candidates have the same testing experience. How does one calibrate that her disabilities require exactly double the amount of testing time without regard to other considerations like the "attention deficit" part of her disability, which would on its own suggest that more breaks or longer breaks are appropriate?

[Breeze54]

36. They are giving her more time to take the test.

I think she will be in the nine hour test on day one and if she is unable, due to her
disabilities, to finish on day one, then she is being given a second day to finish.

[Gormy Cuss]

41. Again, I've looked and nowhere seen a description of the process.

The only hint is that she would have 45 minutes of break time available each day. I wish that at least one reporter would describe it in more detail.

I feel for her because she had planned to have this exam behind her before she had her daughter and there is no easy way to accomplish it now.

[Breeze54]

46. I understand what you're saying and the reporter could've

included more details, I agree but from past experience during the LNCB MCAS testing, students with
learning disabilities take those tests over time, not all in one day. So, I think it's reasonable
to assume that whatever she's not able to finish on day one, will be finished in day two.

I commend her for trying to finish it all and while trying to raise a family.

[hyphenate]

54. That supposition is untrue

From what I understand, she is given more time on each section of the test to cover the section because of her dyslexia. And furthermore, as I've said more than once, I don't think I would want her as my doctor at any rate--there are so many medications that have confusing and similar names, and if she's prescribing one of them and writes it wrong, the result could be a dead patient. Actually, that gives me an idea--go to her specifically, get one of those badly written scripts and sue her fucking ass off. Yeah--that's the ticket. :sarcasm:

[Breeze54]

57. She's a Medical RESEARCHER!

Not a regular MD! She has an MD and her Phd!

[tammywammy]

78. It doesn't matter

BTW, there are a lot of doctors out there with both MD/DO and a PhD. My friend is one. She sat the board exam last spring.

[LisaL]

93. You don't need to pass this test if you want to do research in the lab,

that doesn't involve humans. Your Ph.D. is quite enough.

[Breeze54]

99. I think the state of MA and the hospitals disagree with you.

License Questions

http://www.massmedboard.org/physician/physician_faq.shtm#1

Q. What types of medical licenses are available in the State of Massachusetts and what are the requirements?

A. The following is a list of Licenses:

* Full license: You must hold an active full license to practice medicine independently in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

a lot more at link...

---------------

Board of Registration in Medicine
Regulations, Policies & Guidelines

http://www.massmedboard.org/regs/

[LisaL]

114. Practicing medicine and doing research is not one and the same.

[Breeze54]

119. Glad I don't live where you do!

:D

My state requires licenses in the medical and legal fields, among many others.

[LisaL]

123. What are you talking about? Ph.D.s who strictly do research

do not need a medical license. It's gonna be the same in any state.
Ph.D.s won't even be allowed to get a medical license even if they wanted to.

[LisaL]

96. I am not sure what you mean by she is not regular MD.

Someone with a Ph.D. can do research. No additional test is needed. Someone with Ph.D. can not treat patients. Someone with MD/Ph.D. can do both. Since she is taking this test, I presume she wants to treat patients or have some sort of capacity with the patients, cause just to do research in the lab, not involving human patients, people don't need to pass these tests.

[Breeze54]

100. She is taking a job researching.

She is not going to be treating patients, according to the article. What's not to understand?

[FLDCVADem]

101. If she's not going to treat patients

Why does she need the full MD license?

[LisaL]

103. My point exactly. Ph.Ds do research day in and day out, and

they don't usually need/take those tests. I don't think someone with just a Ph.D. would even be allowed to take this test.

[Breeze54]

108. She has her MD and a Phd!

Didn't you read the article?

snip-->

"Currier has completed a joint M.D.-Ph.D. program at Harvard University"...

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/12/america/NA-GEN-US-Breast-Feeding-Dispute.php

[LisaL]

115. LOL. What is it do you think I don't understand?

Yes, she has MD/Ph.D. If one wants to treat patients, or work with patients, one needs a M.D.
The test she is taking is for M.D.s, not for Ph.Ds.

[Breeze54]

117. And so?

:shrug:

What part of "the test is required for her residency/job" don't you understand? :shrug:

[tigereye]

138. yikes when does this woman sleep?

MD and PHD AND 2 kids. Wow. That's impressive.

[FLDCVADem]

144. I would have found it more impressive...

...if she hadn't gotten through MIT by having the school pay others to read to her and make notes for her in class.

I'm all for giving everyone an opportunity to excel, regardless of their challenges. But is there anyone that would really want to have this woman doing the pathology workup on their biopsy? I certainly wouldn't.

[tigereye]

145. that doesn't make sense to me

if she is competent to pass PHD orals and comps and write a disseration, and pass the academic and clinical exams in medical school, then she must be pretty bright.

I think there are probably more than a few doctors running around who have ADHD - and having a reading disorder doesn't mean that you can't think and analyze things. I've met a few psychiatrists who likely have ADHD and they seemed pretty competent.

[FLDCVADem]

159. I'm sure she's bright

I don't doubt for a second that she's bright. I just think that before she gathers all these kudos for being such a superstar, people should know that she didn't even come close to earning it on her own.

We're not talking about a little bit of help here - people were paid to read to her and take notes for her. She may do well, but I sure wouldn't want her for my doctor.

[tigereye]

161. these types of accomodations aren't new

people with these issues learn differently. I guess to me it does mean that she did it on her own. :shrug:

I've written reports for college students who needed accomodations for college- they are quite common.


It would be interesting to see how many doctors have these kinds of issues - I bet there are some research studies about it, since I bet med students are typically a captive population for researchers. I would think she might be a more sensitve doctor, should she pass and choose to practice, than some others.

[Breeze54]

164. Famous People and Attention Deficit Disorder (Would you trust any of them?)

Famous People and Attention Deficit Disorder

http://www.adhdrelief.com/famous.html

Low self-esteem and the feeling of not "fitting in" to the real world are common threads with ADD / ADHD.

These photos and the long list below demonstrate that not only do we have a place in society,
but our comrades have made immeasurable contributions to it throughout history.

Be aware that we are NOT "stupid or lazy" as some claim, but actually may be among
the outstanding individuals of each passing generation.

A more extensive list (with links to biographical and other information) appears below.


Top Row (left to right):
President Eisenhower, Beethoven, Stevie Wonder, Mariette Hartley, President Lincoln, "Magic" Johnson

Second Row:
Benjamin Franklin, William Butler Yeats, President Kennedy, George Burns, Milton Hershey, Galileo

Third Row:
Prince Charles, General Patton, Mozart, Greg Louganis, Henry Winkler, Socrates

Bottom Row:
Eleanor Roosevelt, Albert Einstein, Harry Andersen, Jim Carey, Sir Winston Churchill, Jason Kidd

-------------

Successful People with Learning Disabilities and/or AD/HD

http://www.schwablearning.org/articles.aspx?r=258#medical

MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS

Harvey Cushing, M.D. (1869-1939) a world renowned neurosurgeon, had dyslexia.

Helen Taussig, M.D. (1898-1986) This successful cardiologist struggled with dyslexia, which made school difficult for her. Even so, she graduated from Johns Hopkins Medical School.

Delos Cosgrove, M.D. is a cardiothoracic surgeon, inventor of several medical devices, and CEO of the Cleveland Clinic. He says, “I didn't know I was dyslexic until I was 33 years old. I went all the way through medical school without knowing it.”

BUSINESS LEADERS

Richard Branson is an enormously successful entrepreneur and founder of 150 enterprises that carry the Virgin name, such as Virgin Airlines.

John T. Chambers, CEO of Cisco Systems, has revolutionized the technology industry and is recognized as one of the most fascinating business leaders of our times.

Barbara Corcoran, founder of one of New York City’s largest residential real estate agencies, recently authored Use What You’ ve Got & Other Business Lessons I Learned from my Mom.

Ingvar Kamprad, Swedish founder and chairman of IKEA stores, claims he adapted the inner workings of his business to compensate for his dyslexia.

David Neeleman founder and CEO of Jet Blue Airways, started his first airline while he was still in college.

Paul Orfalea is the founder and chairperson of Kinko’s, an international, billion-dollar copy service company.

Charles Schwab is the founder, chairperson, and CEO of the Charles Schwab Corporation, the largest brokerage firm in the U.S.

Diane Swonk is Senior Managing Director and Chief Economist for Chicago based Mesirow Financial, one of the nation’s largest banks.

James Levoy Sorenson is a Utah entrepreneur who brings his talents to a wide range of ventures.

Donald Winkler, CEO of Ford Motor Credit, has inspired businesses to overcome obstacles to success. He actively supports individuals with LD.

Back to menu

[midlife_mo_Jo]

194. I have two kids with disabilities

so I understand the necessity of the ADA, but the fact is there is no way in hell I would want this woman working up my path report.

As it is, I had breast cancer, and the pathologist is a real "unknown" in there, and really scary to think about, when you realize that my diagnosis and treatment is probably 95% based on the report by a human being whom I never even met.

Now, was that tumor 15mm or 1.5 cm? Or was it 5mm or 5cm? Was that DCIS or LCIS? With sven kids, I know what it's like to have kids with disabilities. One is severely dyslexic, and I don't trust her to write our phone number correctly without checking it. There's just some lines of work that would be very difficult for him.

[Breeze54]

149. I think so too and to have done all that

while dealing with her LD I think she deserves a chance to jump this one last hurdle.

I also think she's opening the door for other women in the same predicament.

[tigereye]

163. well at least she has a chance to succeed

it's interesting that folks aren't held back by things the way that they used to. It's just a shame it has to be so litigious.


It's surprising to me how many folks are upset about people using accomodations. In the past, some of these folks would never have been able to achieve at this level.

[Breeze54]

165. I'm dumbfounded by the people who are upset by this!

Absolutely astounding! :crazy:

Shows the need for more education in the general public, imho.

The Disabilities Act has made gains for people with AD/HD and also with LD's.

I say more power to them!! Many bright and successful people had or still have
both and have contributed a great deal to humanity.

http://www.schwablearning.org/articles.aspx?r=258#medical">Successful People with Learning Disabilities and/or AD/HD

[Breeze54]

106. Maybe she wanted it.

It's a free country. maybe she plans on practicing later on? Maybe it's a job requirement?

[mondo joe]

120. Maybe she does plan on practicing later.

All the more reason she should be held to the same standards as others.

[LisaL]

102. I've seen absolutely nothing in the OP article that claims she

won't be treating patients.

[Breeze54]

107. Her job requires a license for a residency in clinical pathology

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/09/12/america/NA-GEN-US-Breast-Feeding-Dispute.php

snip-->

"She has been offered a residency in clinical pathology at Massachusetts General Hospital in
November, but cannot accept it unless she passes the test, which she plans to take on Saturday.

"The one requirement is to pass this exam," she said Tuesday."

-------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_pathology

Clinical pathology is one of the two major divisions within the medical specialty of pathology.
A clinical pathologist is a medical doctor responsible for the diagnosis of diseases based on
the analysis of body fluids like blood, urine, etc. He/she works in close collaboration with
medical technologists.

[LisaL]

112. So, it appears she will be diagnosing patients. Why are you

arguing she won't be treating patients?

[Breeze54]

118. Because the article says she will be doing research.

medical technologists usually take the blood samples/urine etc.

I haven't had any nurses draw blood in any lab I went to for tests.

It's usually techs that do that sort of work.

[tigereye]

134. hmm, This is very interesting

I wonder what the accomodations for ADHD and dyslexia were while she was in med school. That's pretty impressive.



as for suing the board of examiners, it's a shame that everything has to turn into a lawsuit. It would be so much easier if acoomodations were more flexible.

[hyphenate]

76. So by your reckoning

every single person who has some kind of "disability" should qualify for additional time allot to them for their alleged "handicaps" and the medical licensing board should be generous and give every single one of those people extra time, or break the exam up to two days.

You know, why not, while we're at it, just completely elinimate the exam altogether! After all, everyone has at least one neurosis or disability, and we must not be unfair to anyone who wants to become a doctor or medical professional!

The fucking tests were designed to ELIMINATE people who are UNFIT to become medical professionals and who might end up doing more harm than good. The exams were also designed to remove the wheat from the chaff, and this nasty piece of work should be disqualified from being in a field where mistakes cause DEATH, SERIOUS health consequences and the potential for being deadly wrong.

Someone once said, "Remember, half the doctors in this country graduated in the bottom half of their class." I don't think any of us would want that person who is at the bottom of their class to be our doctor--or our research doctor, either. It is really why we need to have tests and exams to keep us from potentially harming each other through our incompetence.

[Breeze54]

80. "The fucking tests were designed to ELIMINATE people" ?? Huh??

:rofl:

Boy, you are soooo jealous!!! :rofl: I'll bet you park in handicap spaces too!!

I mean, people with physical disabilities have a lot of nerve having easy access parking, don't they?? :sarcasm:

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

95. Why do you think they have medical boards bar exams and series 7.

It prevents too many stupid people from entering the profession. (A few will always slip through. It simply is a tool to cull the herd disabilities be damned. (Try telling them your no good under pressure and freeze on tests (true enough for a lot of otherwise qualified people) they will nicely say tough shit this is the real world starting about now)

[Breeze54]

104. Well, of course if they don't pass but

even lawyers take the exam two and three or more times until they do. My reply was to a person
who's just really po'd that she has a disability and a health issue and doesn't like that she's
getting some extra help. After all that education, it would be a real shame for this breast feeding
issue to be her downfall. And I think the idea is to also get good people into the medical field.
I don't think the test is setup to knock people out, per say. That's inherently evil. It is to test
their knowledge and skill level. I doubt every person who takes the test gets 100% also but they pass!

[Goblinmonger]

130. I think it is a legitimate point

My wife is an attorney. Passed the bar exam in the normal time allotment. Some of her classmates were given extra time on law school exams and on the bar. They are both now in a profession that charges by the hour to do research, writing (both skills for the exams), and trial work. Which one do you want to hire? The one that can do the same work more quickly?

[Breeze54]

135. The one who takes their time to do a thorough job.

Rushing doesn't get you a court date any faster at all.

[Richard Steele]

139. That's pretty much what a "test" is, y'know. If no one is ever eliminated, it's not really a test.

[tigereye]

141. this seems like a rather harsh argument

many people have "disabilities" of some sort, and there's no reason they shouldn't be given a chance to succeed.

[soothsayer]

5. what a scam artist this woman is! I hope she fails her test cuz I sure don't want

her doing any medical research that will affect me or my loved ones.

[mreed]

6. Dyslexic

I'm dyslexic, too, with annoying hay fever and I sure didn't get any extra time to complete my ground and flight tests to become designated a naval flight officer, or on my comprehensive exam for my master's degree. She's a whiner who found a sympathetic court in MA.

[Breeze54]

8. ADHD and Dyslexia are real disabilities and extra time for test taking has been

around in the schools for quite awhile.

I think the men replying in this thread are the whiners and ignorant too!

[mreed]

11. Uh-huh

Right. Sure. I want a combat aircrewperson on my aircraft who couldn't qualify under the standards everyone else had to maintain.

[ProfessorGAC]

12. I Thought She Was Already Granted Extra Time For That

The article says she was already granted the 9 hours over two days due to her learning disabilities.

And no; i'm not whining about anything. I just don't think you've got the facts quite right.

No argument that these are serious disabilities. But, those are already accommodated.

This is a completely separate issue.
The Professor

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

19. Some disabilities disqualify one for certain jobs.

I'm blind in one eye trust me you don't want me landing the aircraft (or hitting a tennis ball for that matter. No test accommodation is going to change those real world problems. I'd hire a dyslexic salesman in a minute I'm not sure I'd be as comfortable with a dyslexic tax accountant.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Breeze54]

37. You're a very nasty person and so

I'm discounting/ignoring your idiotic and name calling of this young mother and student.

[hyphenate]

58. Suit yourself

This woman is the one who deserves my scorn, because she wants all the rules bent for her. She sure doesn't qualify for reasonable person in my mind.

[mondo joe]

59. She failed the test once before. Looks to me like she's trying to get any

advantage she can so she can scrape by.

I think people forget there are good reasons for making it hard to be a licensed MD.

[hyphenate]

66. I am in complete agreement with you

I also find it intriguing because there are so many ways of cheating electronically nowadays that her desire for increased time away from the tests could be a way of getting much needed answers from someone who she might be communicating with. I'm just saying anything is possible, and I don't put anything past her.

[tammywammy]

69. I agree Mondo

Medical students know what to expect during their board exams. It's not like it sneaks up on them.

[hyphenate]

77. Oh I guess

some people just really don't give a fuck about the opinions of others around here. I called out NO ONE on this board, but made a visceral remark about this woman who has sought to corrupt a standard of test taking that has been fair to everyone over a very long stretch of time. Well, that kind of 'tude used to belong to the OTHER side--its tentacles are now reaching into our OWN. I've got it now.

It's getting to the point where I see why so many have left this board--the opinions of a select few are as narrow-minded as you can possibly get.

[Breeze54]

7. How liberal of you!

:sarcasm:

We need more medical researchers!

I hope she passes and moves on to discover great things!! :woohoo:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tigereye]

148. dyslexia is primarily a reading disorder....

[Dr. Strange]

63. If we need medical researchers that bad...

then why even have the test? Just give them all a pass.

[FLDCVADem]

87. Yes, we need medical researchers

Not over-indulged, pampered little whiners that don't want to follow the rules that everyone else has to live by. I'm not really bothered by the fact that the test is being broken up into two days, though I question the wisdom of any hospital that would hire a researcher that can't pass the exam without taking extra time. However, her claims of injury to her health if she doesn't have more than 45 minutes per day to pump are over the top, IMO.

Uncomfortable? Sure. But she could easily pump enough milk in less than 45 minutes to relieve the pain. Dangerous? Please. The comments here about engorgement probably leading to mastitis are overstated. We're talking a two day period here, not long term. Her risks are below minimal.

And before the anti-woman accusations start flying, I *am* a woman, I breastfed two kids for the first year, and even *gasp* managed to make it through a 5 hour test with a single 30 minute break. Yes, I pumped what I could to relieve the pressure, and was no worse for the wear. I call 'em as I see 'em, and I don't make excuses for anyone just because we share the same sex organs. If I think a woman is taking advantage, I'll call foul just as fast as I would on a man.

I've got to say, I'm kind of hoping that she fails the test so that no hospitals have to face the possiblity of dealing with her inevitable lawsuit when they don't bend to her personal needs. Being a stay-at-home mom is a noble job - perhaps she should do that for a few years, rather than inflict herself on co-workers.

[Breeze54]

109. Wah! *sniff* *sniff*

Boo Hoo!

What skin is it off your back if she gets an extra 30-40 minutes to breast feed? :shrug:

Is it going to ruin your schedule? I think not. You're being silly.

[FLDCVADem]

125. I would argue that you (and Currier) are the ones being silly

Asking for special considerations, one on top of the other, is simply wrong IMO. If she can't pass the test under the same conditions as others (which she obviously can't, since she's already failed it once), then perhaps she should either put off the test or look for another line of work.

I see nothing silly about expecting her to work within the same break schedule as everyone else taking the test. She could do, she just doesn't want to do it.

[Richard Steele]

143. Oh, bullshit. Demanding that MDs be COMPETENT doesn't make anyone less "liberal".

Shame on you for that ugly smear.

[Breeze54]

183. I didn't say they were less Democratic.

I referred to the more liberal Points of View.

Democratic and liberal are not a given and aren't like "soup and sandwich"!

It wasn't a smear but only my observation, opinion.

Some Dems are more liberal than some other Dems. Look at HRC!

[Debau2005]

9. And what would she do in a job environment?

I get 2 30 minute breaks and 45 minutes for lunch. I manage just fine, as do other nursing mothers in my organization. None of us have to forgo eating, drinking, or using the bathroom because we run out of time. Sounds like she wanted to get her name in the news.

This article implies that she had her baby with her?!

It is not like this test is a day to day, week to week thing. It is one day! Good grief, this does not advance the rights of breast feeding mothers, it sets us back.

[Breeze54]

25. Maybe your employer should be more understanding.

I think it brings the subject into the main stream of discussion.

You and your fellow co-workers should be given more time, imho!

Many companies are now allowing parent time and some even allow parents to bring the babis to work with them.

The woman in the article is pumping the milk during the test. I don't think she'd need to do that if the baby was with her.

[Debau2005]

29. My employer is very understanding

My point is that it doesn't take as long as she is complaining that it does.

If we are given more time, then the smokers should be given more time, and so should everyone else. I know what my job requirements are and I took the job knowing the requirements.

I doubt this woman stops every two hours in her day to day life to pump or to nurse. I am sure one day or two days of changing her schedule by a few minutes will not cause her harm! Do what the rest of us do and eat and drink while you pump. It is also when I get some novel reading done.

To the people jumping on the men in this thread, I am a woman, and find that she is looking for a reason for special treatment. The article states that other nursing mother's have not found the time to be an issue.

[Breeze54]

32. How do you know that that's enough time for her?

Not everyone is the same. I had to nurse every two hours or I had a noticeably wet shirt!!

Some women produce a lot of milk and some don't produce any! I also suffered engorgement

and inflammation and had a fever, as a result, and had to go antibiotics.

Every situation is different.

[THUNDER HANDS]

13. there's really only two solutions

one, you increase the break time for everyone to 2 hours.

two, you don't allow her to take the extra time to pump her milk.

Treat her fairly, like you would any other student.

[ProfessorGAC]

16. Good Idea Rat

Just make the breaks longer for everyone. How would anyone object to getting a little more decompression time during a 9 hour test upon which one's career hinges?
The Professor

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

14. I'm half and half on this (no it isn't a milk joke)

I think 45 minutes during a 9 hour plus exam is ridiculous. Heck I would want extra accommodation cause I'm a smoker. That said she already received extra accommodation for dyslexia and ADHD. Honestly since the test is supposed to measure real world aptitude I am actually more sympathetic to someone getting extra time to breast feed (A temp problem that any employer would accommodate) than for dyslexia or ADHD both conditions which may make this line of work unsuitable for her.

Either way I wouldn't be surprised if she passed the test she found it hard to get employed with her litigiousness so well publicized.

[Breeze54]

20. She has already has been offered a job.

"Currier, of Brookline, has finished a joint M.D.-Ph.D. program at Harvard University while
having two babies in the past two years. She has been offered a residency in clinical pathology
at Massachusetts General Hospital beginning in November, but cannotaccept it unless she passes the test."

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

47. I wouldn't hire her on a bet.

Not because of her disabilities I'm just allergic to anyone who is so sue happy and self centered.

[Breeze54]

50. lol

Sue happy?

The next breast feeding woman will have an easier time of it. Good!! :woohoo:

[piesRsquare]

126. ADHD and Dyslexia

Do not make this line of work unsuitable for her.

Not at all.

That being said, she went too far. I have ADHD and dyslexia and she's making a mockery of "reasonable accomodation." She could take the test at another time.

She's got it good in life. Harvard M.D./Ph.D., husband, children, job lined up. Obviously her husband does well, they could afford her being in school full time, afford children, and afford to pay for a lawyer to go after the Board. She got extra time, test divided into two days...she has so much and was accomodated so well--why the demand for more?

I've got to say that I wish my life were in the shape that hers is in. It's like she has it all but thinks she's been shafted. Shame.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

128. I don't think so either.

I understand needing extra time for Dyslexia (I have no idea how one should accommodate ADHD) it's her attitude and the way she is playing the system that clearly bothers me.

I found your post very insightful.

[Breeze54]

150. What exactly is "her attitude"?

That she's trying to finish and get the job after succeeding in all her other academic pursuits?

She should be commended. Not vilified.

Perhaps you need to look inside yourself and find out why this bothers you so much.

Is it because nobody gave you a break or any help in your life? Think about it.

[Breeze54]

147. She can't take the test later and be sure to get the residency. It would be gone.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MissB]

17. Whore? I didn't see anything in there about her sexual mores.

[Breeze54]

21. Wow!! Bitch? Whore?

Grow up.

[beevul]

24. You sir, are being unreasonable. N/T.

[hyphenate]

64. I am?

And for the record, I'm a woman. And calling someone like this idiot a whore or a bitch is based on other research and knowledge of this case, and about how unfair the entire series of concessions made for her are to all the other test takers. She has already gotten MANY concessions, and this is the proverbial straw. I really do hope all the other test takers mount a huge protest and show that she is nothing less than an attention seeking git.

[KittyWampus]

26. As a woman, I have to protest. She choose to have a baby. If she can't prioritize

then too damned bad. This is so unfair to the other students.

They hold that test SEVERAL times a year.

Why not just wait til she's either done breastfeeding or not feeding as much?

As Oprah once said "you can have it all, just not at once".

[Breeze54]

28. As a woman, you should be more sympathetic.

She has to take it now, she has a job waiting.

[KittyWampus]

33. She also has a baby. She CHOOSE to have a baby. There are other tests, other job offers.

She should have lobbied her future employers to wait til she took the test.

But the world apparently owes this one woman, out of all the others in existance, special treatment?

I don't think so.

At some point in her life, this woman will learn that there are consequences. And not everyone will buckle under to her unfreasonable demands.

[Breeze54]

38. The word is 'chose'

and so, what you're saying is that mothers shouldn't be allowed to work? :shrug:

Oh, ok! :rofl:

PSST! This is 2007, not 1950!!

[MissB]

43. Many large employers in our state have special rooms set aside

for nursing moms. It isn't an unreasonable demand to be accommodated on the job in that way. It is called being "family-friendly".

As someone who has taken a state board licensing exam (engineering, not medical) it would've been incredibly difficult to sit there as a nursing mom with hard, leaking boobs for four plus hours while waiting for a break. Oh yeah, and while taking an exam. It only takes a few minutes to relieve the pressure by expressing a bit of the breast milk.

Some moms nurse for two years or more, although after the first year or so the baby doesn't nurse as frequently. She could wait for a year or so to take the test, but taking a break in a career such as this can be a career-killer.

I can see where her argument was coming from - employers routinely allow for nursing moms to take more frequent breaks to accommodate the need for nursing or pumping. This isn't terribly different.

[Lars39]

45. Wouldn't she have to start paying back her student loans asap

if she's no longer a student?

[MissB]

48. She might be able to get a hardship deferment

but that would cost her financially anyway.

But yes, waiting to take the exam may not be an option for a variety of reasons. There can be conditions placed on employment (for example - professional registration required, or ability to obtain within 3 months).

I suppose one could be hard hearted and say she should've timed her breeding a bit better (not saying you'd say that!!!), but really. She had a baby, she needs to take her state boards.

I'd think that wet circles on ones shirt would be a bit distracting.

[Lars39]

51. I panicked

just thinking about having 2 babies within 2 years.

[MissB]

53. Yeah...

Two in fifteen months. Luckily, I didn't have any major exams coming up. :rofl:

[mondo joe]

56. I suspect many would more sympathetic if the whole exam was not riddled with

exceptions for her.

I spent the weekend with two female physicians and the topic came up - they were fairly gung-ho on accomodating her need to breast feed. When they found out about having the test stretched out over two days as other accomodations, they put their support on hold and one said "Seems like there's a lot more to this story."

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

60. I agree. i actually think the breastfeeding accommodation is reasonable.

It is a temporary situation that any employer should accommodate and would effect her long term ability to do the job. I think it's the other accommodations on top of that people object to. At some point she will have to leave academia and learn the real world is a results based place that doesn't want to hear your excuses.

[mondo joe]

68. Per the original news story, she failed the test in the first go-round.

It sounds to me like she's trying to pick up any advantage she can in order to scrape by this time.

When I consider the total of all accommodations she's getting, it does seem over the top and like her testing experience will be VERY different from the norm.

[hyphenate]

79. I don't know where anyone

got the idea this woman was poor. In fact, she's pretty well off. NO ONE who lives in Brookline, Massachusetts is a pauper. As someone who grew up there before it became the haven of yuppies and the filthy rich, I know of where I talk. This is the story of another rich and privileged git getting away with the same shit she was likely raised with.

[Breeze54]

55. I believe she is married and has other income via her husband.

I doubt that her student loans are an issue.

[tammywammy]

67. Just one small correction

the 45 minute break can be broken up however you want it. It's not a set time. Students can take small breaks between sections or wait and take the whole 45 minutes at once.

[krabigirl]

92. I totally agree.

[Kazak]

27. Where does this leave the formula companies?!?

Poooor forumla companies... :cry:

[aikoaiko]

35. Somehow this doesn't really seem like a win for the woman...

[hyphenate]

40. Here's the link to the original article

in the Boston Globe.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2007/09/19/new_mom_denied_breastfeeding_time_during_doctor_test/

[gollygee]

62. I'm bothered that she's being called a bitch, a whore, and a skank

and a "prickless prick" over this.

Someone called her a con and I think it's reasonable to consider that. She has had an awful lot of accommodations. I think the extra time to nurse is definitely reasonable as it doesn't take much time and it's really painful to get engorged - she wouldn't be able to successfully take the test in that condition I don't think. And extra time for ADHD and dyslexia could well be reasonable too, but it is worth questioning when all of this extra time starts stacking up. I read she didn't pass the first time and I can't help wondering if she just wants extra time. I don't know her personally so I can't speak for what is up as far as that goes.

But can we please stop using language like bitch and whore to describe every woman we don't like?

[Kazak]

65. She's almost as low as Andrew Meyer, that ASSHOLE!!

;)

[hyphenate]

97. I used those terms because I'm sick of hearing

how this person is sueing everyone to get something extra. My knowledge of the case goes back a couple of months, and if you've heard her whining more than once, she IS a bitch and whatever ELSE I've called her. As I said, I've been listening to her "oh woe is me" shit for too long to think she's a worthwhile complainant in any way shape or form.

And since when does someone want to stop someone from calling a "public" figure a name? Shit, if we really had to worry about that right now, there is no one at DU who hasn't called the CinC very many polite names for 6 1/2 years now. Doesn't freedom of speech give us the right to say what we want to in terms of public entities? I don't care to self censor myself at DU, and if people really don't want to see the language I use, there are safeguards at DU to hide, ignore or go past such postings.

This case has been in the limelight for some of us for awhile now--it's disheartening to see most people being screwed (fucked, shafted, thrown to the wolves) by her and others who seek to capitalize on the publicity it's generating. I have had contempt for people before (as I'm sure we ALL have) but this one takes the cake.

Since two of my posts in this thread have already been deleted (with absolutely NOTHING in those posts other than names I've called this publicity hound), I will refrain (reluctantly) to say anything further. As a long term member of DU, and one who has never said anything about any member of DU, I have decided that freedom of speech is a commodity now in danger of extinction if I get censored for calling someone (public figure) a name. That's, as my mother would have said, "shit for the birds."

End transmission

[Sanctified]

70. I hope that if I am dying and in need of immediate medical attention this woman is not treating me.

The last thing I want to hear is, "Yeah you have 2 days to live unless we can figure out whats wrong, if you need me please page because I am going to be pumping my breasts".

[Breeze54]

82. She won't be seeing patients, so you have no worries...maybe.

She is going into research, not a practice.

[LisaL]

86. Why would she need to pass some test to go into research?

[Breeze54]

94. You have to be educated and qualified to do medical research

Just as Doctors and Nurses also have to be board certified and licensed.

You can't just have anyone doing that kind of work. It takes a lot of education.

National Board of Medical Examiners
http://www.nbme.org/

The National Board of Medical Examiners®

To protect the health of the public through state of the art assessment of health professionals.

About the NBME

http://www.nbme.org/about/index.html

NBME Mission

To protect the health of the public through state of the art assessment of health professionals. While centered on assessment of physicians, this mission encompasses the spectrum of health professionals along the continuum of education, training and practice and includes research in evaluation as well as development of assessment instruments.

[LisaL]

98. Someone with a Ph.D.

doing research in the lab, not involving human patients, does not need to pass this test. Ph.D. is quite enough.

[Breeze54]

110. Again, Lizzie...She has her MD and Phd!!

Gheesh! And she has to pass this test to take that job! It's required!!!!!!!!!!!

[mondo joe]

121. And she failed once, and is now getting extra advantages in order to pass.

The test is supposed to screen people - not serve their ambitions.

[ecstatic]

71. ummm I'm pretty feminist, but I really sense bullsh!t on this one

Why can't she pump the night before like millions (or billions) of women do all around the world?

[moc]

Pump the night before? Uhhh...I gather you've never breastfed, right?

It doesn't really work that way. And who are these millions you're referring to?

[Breeze54]

81. LMFAO!!

:rofl:

You were joking, right?

-----------------------------

How often should I nurse my baby?

http://www.llli.org/FAQ/frequency.html

Every baby is different! Due to individual differences, healthy full-term babies may breastfeed as often as every hour or as infrequently as every four hours and thrive, according to LLLI BREASTFEEDING ANSWER BOOK (BAB) Third Revised Edition, page 26. Daily breastfeeding patterns will vary from baby to baby and from day to day.

Many mothers are surprised at how quickly and easily human milk is digested (often within 90 minutes of the last feeding). Rather than watching the clock it is recommended that a mother watch for signs that her newborn is hungry, such as the rooting reflex, chewing/sucking on hands or fingers, or crying.

Mothers can follow their baby's lead in how often to breastfeed, as long as their baby is getting enough. See the FAQ on how to tell your baby is getting enough milk or the articles in our Web resource page on milk supply issues. Breastfed babies regulate themselves; they take what they need at each feeding, and from each breast. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that healthy, full-term newborns should breastfeed eight to twelve times in each 24-hour period. This equates to feedings two to three hours apart.

Thus, if your baby is not breastfeeding at least eight to twelve times in a 24-hour period in the early weeks, you may need to wake your baby to breastfeed more often. You can find an information sheet on "Tips for Rousing the Sleepy Newborn" in the LLLI Online Store, or it may be available from your local Leader. It is important that you rouse your baby for feeding as necessary so your baby will gain properly.

Some mothers are concerned when their baby wants to breastfeed more often than every two hours. "During the early months, many babies do what is called 'cluster feeding;' spacing feedings closer together at certain times of the day (typically during the evening) and going longer between feedings at other times" (BAB, p. 36). This variability in frequency is normal. Moreover, many breastfeeding problems -- including those attributed to "too much milk" or "not enough milk" -- are resolved with more frequent nursing.

Babies who breastfeed frequently (as long as they are latched on correctly) tend to get plenty of milk because their mothers' milk supplies have been boosted by the frequent stimulation. Research now shows that restricting the amount of time at the breast and extending the time between feedings can reduce not only a mother's milk supply, but also the fat content of her milk -- resulting in a hungry, crying baby.

As babies grow and their stomachs become larger, they naturally begin to go longer between feedings and develop more regular feeding patterns. Growth spurts may disrupt the more regular feeding patterns, but they are usually short lived. See the FAQ on growth spurts for more information.

more at link....

[ecstatic]

83. I guess maybe I live in a different world. The nursing mothers I know pump and store in bottles

their milk ahead of time. I'm not a mother but this seems to work out for them, although I'm sure it's an exhausting exercise.

[moc]

88. If you live in a different world, it's la la land. Perhaps you need to

request more details from your nursing mother friends.

FWIW, I'm the mother of two, both of whom I nursed exclusively for a year. (If you don't know what that means, it means neither of them ever received formula, only breastmilk, for the first year.) I work full-time, returning to full-time work at 3 months postpartum after my first pregnancy and after 5 months after my second. In addition, I have a doctorate in maternal and child health (a field of public health). In other words, I have more than a modest amount of personal experience and professional knowledge regarding this issue.

First off, you can't "pump the milk ahead of time". The breasts are making milk constantly (they're never "empty" contrary to popular belief). Based on a baby's eating patterns, the breasts will "kick" into production and become very full at those times the baby usually eats. At 4 months of age (the age of the baby in this case) it's fairly typical for a baby to eat about every 3 hours, although it should be noted there are WIDE ranges for babies. Also, some babies "cluster" feed, so nothing is ever written in stone in terms of frequency of nursing.

It is possible for a mom to "train" her breasts not to produce milk around the clock. For example, when a baby starts sleeping through the night for the first time, the mother will commonly wake with painfully overfull breasts at those times her baby would usually eat. (Some mothers I know have used those times to pump to build a stash of frozen milk.) If this happens, the mom can either pump or manually express just enough milk to be comfortable, and over a period of a few days to perhaps a week, her milk production will adjust, and her breasts will not become overfull during the night. Likewise, a mom who returns to work who doesn't want to pump at work but wants to continue nursing in the evenings and weekends can pump minimally during her first days back at work (just to relieve painful overfullness) and her body will adjust accordingly.

However, a woman's milk production cannot make this adjustment abruptly. If milk stagnates in the breast it can cause very serious problems. Mastitis is an infection of the breast that can result from milk stagnating in the breast, and women can (and do) end up being hospitalized for it. One of my sisters experienced mastitis, and she said she felt like she'd been hit by a truck. I was lucky - the worst thing that happened to me were clogged ducts, which are uncomfortable and somewhat painful, but I was able to resolve them. Some women experience repeated bouts of mastitis, unfortunately.

I hope this information is helpful. I note that you are a woman, and if you plan to have children and want to breastfeed, I highly recommend a book called "Best feeding: Getting breastfeeding right for you" by Mary Renfrew. It's very informative, short, and easy to read. It's one of the best books on breastfeeding out there, imo.

[Breeze54]

89. Thank You for your very informative post!

:hug:

[Ms. Toad]

85. My turn

:rofl:

<<Every baby is different! Due to individual differences, healthy full-term babies may breastfeed as often as every hour or as infrequently as every four hours and thrive . . . Rather than watching the clock it is recommended that a mother watch for signs that her newborn is hungry, such as the rooting reflex, chewing/sucking on hands or fingers, or crying.>>

<<Thus, if your baby is not breastfeeding at least eight to twelve times in a 24-hour period in the early weeks, you may need to wake your baby to breastfeed more often. You can find an information sheet on "Tips for Rousing the Sleepy Newborn" in the LLLI Online Store, or it may be available from your local Leader. It is important that you rouse your baby for feeding as necessary so your baby will gain properly.>>

My daughter, from day 1, nursed about 5 times a day - an hour and a half at a time. She certainly never had a problem gaining weight. The one time I was bullied into waking her (in the hospital just after she was born) likely subjected her to abuse by a nurse who was later fired for abusing babies in the nursery who were difficult to awaken.

But I digress . . . the article starts the article by saying every baby is different, and touts watching for signs of hunger - then proceeds to tell you to ignore your baby's natural rhythm and wake her if she's not eating often enough. They should have stopped while they were ahead. Unfortunately it is folks pushing the "norm" that made my start as a nursing mother much harder than it had to be.

[Breeze54]

91. I think the La Leche League was right on and they were

referring to a newborn vs an older baby (4 months) etc.

All babies nurse differently.

[Ms. Toad]

157. Even as a newborn

my daughter nursed about 4 hours after her last feeding, each of which took about an hour and a half. Each nursing cycle thus took about 5.5 hours, which makes for nursing 4-5 times a day. Not at 4 months, but from day one.

La Leche League was right when they said all babies nurse differently, and that you need to pay attention to your baby. They were wrong when they went beyond that and suggested that if your baby is not nursing 8-12 times (absent any other symptoms that something is wrong) that you need to awaken her to feed her.

That assertion is not true as an absolute. Especially coming from an organization dedicated to promoting breastfeeding, it undermines the confidence of new nursing mothers whose babies are at the extreme ends of the nursing ranges. It supports hospitals and family members who use it to bully new mothers into providing supplemental feedings - either water or formula, both of which interfere with the creation of a strong and healthy nursing bond. On the other extreme of the nursing range, mothers are told to delay feeding because nursing too often (or in my daughter's case) for too long - it's too hard on mom and will "tear you to shreds" (yes, I was told that and no, it wasn't true). Fortunately, I was confident enough that (with one exception) I did not surrender to the bullying - but I did have to battle my mother, my mother-in-law, the lactation consultant, and the nursing staff at the hospital.

Given how few moms actually succeed in nursing for any significant period of time, the message needs to be if whatever you are doing is working (you are healthy, baby is healthy and gaining weight), keep at it, if not - try something different and see if it works better. Not watch the clock and make sure you get in at least 8 feedings a day.

Edited to add: My daughter nursed for 18 months, during 9 of which she had a single supplemental feeding - in the hospital, over my strong objections.

[Breeze54]

175. I didn't say that I agree with everything they say but they're very knowledgeble.

I also breast fed and I know what a messy, painful, difficult thing it can be at times, some times more than others! ;)

But your statement:

"but I did have to battle my mother, my mother-in-law, the lactation consultant, and the nursing staff at the hospital."

That makes me even more supportive of this mother, in her battle to get an 40 extra minutes
to breast feed, during a long day. All breastfeeding mothers seem to be under the gun and having
to battle, just to feed their babies and it's ridiculous, imho.

I'm glad you were successful in your breastfeeding and didn't succumb to the fear mongering by all
that you mentioned. Been there, done that too. It doesn't make it a peaceful or relaxing time for
a mother and baby and only adds more stress, which is a bad thing for a nursing Mom and her milk.

More mothers should be more supportive of other mothers instead of attacking them.

I think this Mom is brave and I hope she succeeds and passes the test and goes on
to be a great researcher or doctor or whatever she chooses to be!

[Goblinmonger]

131. People can, and have, taken tests like these

while being a breastfeeding mother without extra accomodations. it's been done in the past and I imagine it could be done in the future.

[Breeze54]

132. Yes, and I'm sure it was under hardship.

Tough, if some of you don't like it.

The times, they are a changing! :D

Get used to it!

[Beausoir]

72. What a baby!

[hyphenate]

73. Response by the governing body of the medical exam

NBME Appeals Massachusetts Judge's Reversal of Lower Court in Suit for Extra Break Time During Medical Licensing Exam

PHILADELPHIA, Sept. 26 /PRNewswire/ -- The National Board of Medical
Examiners is appealing the decision of Justice Gary Katzmann of the
Massachusetts Appeals Court, which granted the petition of breastfeeding
mother Sophie Currier for extra break time to express milk.
"Our overriding concerns are fairness to all examinees and the
integrity of the exam, which serves as an important gateway to medical
practice," said Joseph F. Savage, Jr., attorney for the National Board of
Medical Examiners (NBME), which co-sponsors the exam. "Our position remains
that the exam's sponsors have in no way violated Ms. Currier's rights."
"Our first responsibility is to the American public," said Dr. Ruth
Hoppe, spokesperson for the National Board of Medical Examiners. "The high
stakes involved in assessing competence of aspiring physicians to practice
medicine require that we maintain rigorous and consistent standards that
are fair to everyone taking the test."
Ms. Currier is currently scheduled to take Step 2 Clinical Knowledge of
the US Medical Licensing Examination on October 4 and 5. If the injunction
is in effect at that time, the NBME will comply with its terms.
Step 2 Clinical Knowledge, the portion of the USMLE at issue in Ms.
Currier's suit, was taken by more than 33,000 examinees in the 2005-2006
academic year.
The USMLE is sponsored by two nonprofit organizations, the National
Board of Medical Examiners and the Federation of State Medical Boards.
Policies governing its administration are established by the USMLE
Composite Committee, which includes representatives from the two sponsoring
organizations, the public, and the Educational Commission for Foreign
Medical Graduates.



SOURCE The National Board of Medical Examiners

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-26-2007/0004670764&EDATE=

[FLDCVADem]

90. Outstanding!!

Hopefully the appeal will be heard by a judge that becomes informed on the breastfeeding issue, rather than falling the exaggerations dished out by this woman's attorney.

[HuffleClaw]

84. i bet she'll be be real fun to have as an employee

NOT.

some folks will simply continue to produce excuse after excuse after excuse. i've had the misfortune to witness this behaviour firsthand and it is no fun for everyone else. and they will NEVER run out of excuses.

[Gin]

105. She should have been a lawyer ..instead of going into medicine..

She sure knows how to play the system...

[Breeze54]

111. Yes, I think anyone fighting for their rights should be shot!

:sarcasm:

unf*kingbelievable!

That's how progress is made!

Maybe the board will loosen up the breaks for everyone after this!?!

That would be a good thing and then all you naysayers can stop bellyaching!

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

113. It just seems obvious she is playing the system.

This isn't about breastfeeding. The problem was that she received extra time already to take the test and then went to court for even more additional time.

As I and others have stated above this is a pathology one occasionally sees in employees and coworkers. An employee like this will never be happy. She will always think (something) is unfair. These employees are poison to any work environment.

I've personally dealt with them as a manager and I swear I suffer from a mild PTSD after the ordeal (which invariably is dragged out months as one attempts to bend over backwards.) The reason people get away with this is like a abusive boyfriend there is no full proof test until invested in the relationship.

Unfortunately for her the power of google will show any employer load and clear what kind of employee they will be getting. She better be very good in her field if she hopes to find work after this initial stint.

[Breeze54]

116. I disagree totally!

She has every right to request redress, that's why we have a legal system and an appeals court.

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

122. She has every right indeed.

But any employer with half a brain knows that litigious self centered complainers are horrible to work with and almost impossible to get rid off.

She might find herself damaged goods on the open market. It's at best a Pyhrric victory.

[Breeze54]

124. “Breastfeeding Promotion Act”

For Immediate Release
May 10, 2007

Maloney, Shays Convene 100+ Nursing Moms on Capitol Hill to Call Attention to Breastfeeding Rights

Lawmakers Introduce Bipartisan “Breastfeeding Promotion Act”

WASHINGTON –

Flanked by over 100 breastfeeding mothers and children, U.S. Representatives Carolyn B. Maloney (D-NY) and Christopher Shays (R-CT) hosted
a “nurse-in” today on Capitol Hill to reintroduce their “Breastfeeding Promotion Act” (H.R. 2236 – http://maloney.house.gov/documents/women/breastfeeding/20070510_Breastfeeding_Promotion_Act.pdf">click here for link to bill).
The bipartisan bill would protect breastfeeding mothers from discrimination and encourage new mothers to breastfeed.

The Breastfeeding Promotion Act:

• amends the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to protect breastfeeding women from being fired or discriminated against in the workplace

• provides tax incentives for businesses that establish private, lactation areas in the workplace

• provides for a performance standard for breast pumps

• allows breastfeeding equipment to be tax deductible for families

Currently, 38 states and Puerto Rico have laws on their books protecting the rights of women to breastfeed. The Breastfeeding Promotion Act would move beyond the patchwork of state laws and establish a national protection for breastfeeding mothers.

In addition to Shays, the following Representatives are original co-sponsors of Maloney’s “Breastfeeding Promotion Act”:
Keith Ellison (D-MN); Sheila Jackson-Lee (D-TX); Barbara Lee (D-CA); Carolyn McCarthy (D-NY);
John Olver (D-MA); Bobby Rush (D-IL); Stephanie Tubbs-Jones (D-OH); Lynn Woolsey (D-CA),
Lucille Roybal-Allard (D-CA).

[FLDCVADem]

127. I'd have to learn more before I could support this bill

Does the employer have the right to move the lactating mother to a position where more frequent breaks don't disrupt workflow, if that would be an issue?

Can the employer require that the lactating mother make up any time over and above normal breaktime?

Does the employer have input into how much additional time the lactating mother gets, or is the employer forced to go along with whatever the employee says she needs?

My bottom line is that having a child is a choice, and deciding to breastfeed said child is also a choice, albeit a good one, IMO. However, I'm not in favor of forcing employers and co-workers, by weight of law, to cater to those choices if doing so is disruptive to the workplace and results in de facto discrimination against workers that made different choices, or who by biological happenstance (namely, a penis) don't have that choice to begin with.

It seems that some women have gone from rightfully expecting equal rights and responsibilities to demanding special rights with fewer responsibilities for our choices.

[Breeze54]

133. You sound like a grouchy old man!

:rofl:

Not all pregnancies are by choice. #1

People have the right to have families. #2

Try being creative. Many other companies have and are thriving as a result!

Pregnancy has been going on since Adam & Eve. Eve worked too!

PS. Those 'penises' that you mentioned? They are part of the pregnancy!! :P

[FLDCVADem]

142. Not a grouchy old man...

...but rather a woman that believes that women should live with the choices they make.

1. Not all pregnancies are by choice, but most births are. Breastfeeding is also a choice, a good one, but a choice nonetheless. Why should an employer have to pay, through lost productivity, for a woman's decision to breastfeed? Why should other employees, through increased workload, have to pay for that woman's choice?

2. People absolutely have the right to have families. What they don't have is the right to force employers and other employees to pick up their slack when it comes to taking care of those families.

3. I have no issue whatsoever with companies that choose, voluntarily, to do any or all of things mandated by the bill. What I would oppose is a law that forces employers, at their expense, to do the things that this bill appears to mandate. If the law allows employers to make the woman make up the extra time or allows the employer to move the woman to a position where more frequent breaks wouldn't excessively disrupt business activities, I would have no problem with it.

4. So what? The fact that pregnancy is as old as Adam and Eve is irrelevent to whether or not employers should have to support breastfeeding by force of law.

5. Of course the penises contribute to the pregnancies, but it isn't the men that are asking for time, at employer expense, to breastfeed or pump milk. Nor is it the childless, bottle feeding or women with older children that are asking for it.

When I was pumping at work, I wouldn't have expected to receive 8 hours pay for 6 or 7 hours of work. A law that allows that is simply discriminating against a different group of people (men, the childless, the bottle feeders and the mothers of older children).

Why do you think that's OK?

[Breeze54]

146. Here's an example of creative thinking and also saving money retraining new workers!

There are many others. Just use your favorite search engine.

Brave New Policy: Babies In the Office

http://www.inc.com/magazine/20060701/priority-new-policy.html

Would you let a new mom bring her baby to work?
By: Stephanie Clifford

The Idea

Francine Gemperle, a product designer at Maya Design in Pittsburgh, wanted to return to work soon
after giving birth. Could she bring her six-week-old baby, Milo, to the office with her regularly?

What Other Employers Do

A Maya executive researched babies-at-work policies and found none. The Society for Human Resource
Management reports that just 6 percent of employers offer on-site child care, let alone infant care.

The Pros

Retaining a key staffer; bolstering the company's worker-friendly, pro-mom reputation


The Cons

Maya's lawyers were apoplectic over liability concerns; fears of a crying baby interrupting
meetings and irritating co-workers

The Decision

CEO Mick McManus allowed Milo to come to work until he reached 6 months, when he would be mobile
enough to cause trouble. Maya's lawyers insisted that Gemperle sign a release saying that she
wouldn't sue the firm in the event Milo was hurt.

The Outcome: Good.

Gemperle brought Milo to work three or four days a week. She hired a sitter when she had client
meetings, and took Milo to a break room when he fussed. Other staffers are now expecting and plan
to bring their kids to work too.

Love's Labor Mom and Milo at work


Published July 2006

Bring your baby to work

http://www.fastcompany.com/fast50_02/profile/index.html?matthews36

What do you think?

Susan Matthews
Partner, Borshoff Johnson Matthews PR and Marketing Communications
Indianapolis - IN US

Tell us what you do (or what your team or organization does) and the specific challenge you faced.

Borshoff Johnson Matthews is Indiana�s largest public relations and marketing communications firm, providing counsel to some 50 companies and organizations doing business in Indiana and beyond. Founded in 1984, the firm has grown from three to more than 25 employees. We are a results-oriented firm that prides itself on providing the highest quality service to our valued clients. Of our professionals, 21 are female, and half are of child-bearing age and/or have young children. Our challenge is the risk of losing great employees after they have a child. The stakes are extremely high, as we have many employees in their late 20s to mid 30s who have been with our firm for many years, possess in-depth knowledge of our firm and practices, and have developed strong relationships with long-term clients. Staff turnover is a potential killer. We want to keep great employees.

What was your moment of truth?

Fortunately, we have �lost� very few employees after they have had a child. So we were not facing a huge problem. But, Borshoff Johnson Matthews strives to create a very family friendly environment. We demand a lot from our employees; and in return we provide a flexible environment. We�re always seeking ways to enhance the work experience, and ultimately the quality of service we provide our clients. Plus, we have an open-door policy that encourages all employees to make suggestions at any time that could improve any aspect of our firm. "Bring Your Baby to Work" was suggested by a staff member. As senior management, our first reaction was �cool,� followed by a list of doubts: Wouldn�t babies cry and distract other employees? How could the parent/employee be productive with an infant at his/her side? What about liability? We promised to explore, which we did. Then we set parameters. (Parent provides equipment and supplies. Both parents sign a legal agreement releasing the company from liability. Either party may end the agreement with three day�s notice in case a baby becomes disruptive. Parent goes on slightly reduced pay schedule to compensate for time spent with child.) And soon after, a pilot was launched. Through �Bring Your Baby to Work,� parents work alongside their infants (6 weeks � 6 months) in the office on a daily basis. The program eases parents back into work after birth or adoption, helps us retain employees, and is fun and refreshing for the entire staff.
(The exact date? 11/1/2000)

What were the results?

In two years, we have had four babies at work (and yes, we are sad when each one graduates). Any fears of mass confusion, crying jags or work disruption were quickly alleviated within the early weeks of our first baby�s arrival at work. The results of our �experiment�: � Incredible employee retention, fostering continuity of client service. � Increased productivity and shorter maternity leaves. � No hard costs to the company. � Morale boost for staff and an environment enhancement. � Clients react positively and are impressed with innovation. � Receipt of �Innovative Business Award� from a prominent business television program. � Full-page article in a prominent business journal

What's your parting tip?

If you have a safe, flexible work environment, and if your employees demonstrate a strong team spirit and work ethic, give the idea a try!

Good luck! I really do hope you think outside the box on this one!

[FLDCVADem]

152. In case you didn't bother to read what I already wrote

I have no problem whatsoever with employers being creative with how they handle this situation, and they should be free to offer as much accomodation as they want and/or are able to. I don't believe it should be mandated by law.

And let's face, I highly doubt that most work environments would be suitable for or amenable to having a newborn there during the workday. I know that in my office it simply couldn't work.

[Breeze54]

155. You don't have to get snarky! - Yes I did read or why would I have responded?

I was talking about YOU, as the employer, being creative!

Apparently you didn't read or comprehend what I posted.

Whatever, stay in your little box.

[FLDCVADem]

160. Snarky?

Do you mean like your comments about me being a grouchy old man? Or perhaps your "wah, wah" to people that disagree with you.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

And you obviously didn't read (or perhaps you didn't comprehend) what I wrote, because as your "response", you came back with something that I already said I supported.

[Breeze54]

167. Go educate yourself please.

Have a blissful day. :)

[FLDCVADem]

170. Thanks, but I don't need to be educated on this issue

I was able to do everything I needed to do while I was breastfeeding, including working full time, without having to ask for special accomodations or burden others with my choice.

[VLC]

151. Not all pregnancies are a choice? Are you talking about rape?

nt

[Breeze54]

153. There is no birth control that is 100% effective.

NO method of birth control prevents pregnancy all of the time.

Birth control methods can fail, but you can greatly increase a

method’s success rate by using it correctly all of the time.

But none are 100% effective, there's always a chance.

[VLC]

154. That's why you should use more than one at a time...

[Breeze54]

162. You go ahead. I'll do my own thing.

;)

[tigereye]

158. cool. I was lucky that my employer was very acoomodating when i was

breastfeeding. One of my coworkers even made me a great do not disturb sign.

I bought all my own equipment, obviously, but I guess it would have been nice if it were tax deductible.

I agree that it could be incredibly uncomfortable to take a major exam while lactating and every woman is different in terms of the frequency her child needs to feed. I hope that some balance can be achieved in this situation.

[BlooInBloo]

136. Doubt I'd take my kid to her, if I had a choice, but whatever....

... And IIRC, there were issues significantly beyond mere breastfeeding involved that made it pretty clear that she was just a whiner gaming the system for all it was worth.

[Katherine Brengle]

156. Yaay!!!

Good for her, I hope she does well and becomes a doctor who is sensitive to the needs to new mothers!

[dropkickpa]

166. Whiner

She is pushing for every possible advantage to pass the test this time around since she couldn't hack it on the first try. It's not like she is going into this unaware of the time commitments (she's already done it once!!). SHE needs to make accomodations for this also, the world doesn't revolve around her boobs.

Before I returned to work when Dropkid was 12 weeks old, I spent the week prior adjusting myself to my 9 hours away (8 hours work, 1 hour travel time) day so that my milk supply would drop enough during that time period that only one pumping session would be necessary. Worked like a charm. There is no reason that she can't do the same. I was the the overflowing fountain of milk, I had enough frozen breast milk to feed Dropkid 3x/day for three months AFTER I'd weaned her, so that she got breast milk for one full year. I know all about engorgement, let me tell you, but it WAS NOT AN ISSUE once I'd made the rather simple effort to adjust to my body to my life's schedule. And they sell these nifty ass little things called breast pads, so I didn't have an issue with a wet shirt, either. My motherhood/martyr complex didn't extend so far that I'd walk around with a wet shirt.

And arguing that this test taking session is a one time event so "why should she alter her schedule?" doesn't hold water, as she is supposedly going into residency the minute she passes it. I've never heard of a residency program that ran less than 8 hours a day. Is she going to have each work day split into two days with copious breaks? How will she complete residency with that type of schedule? If her residency is not going to do this, isn't she worried about staining her shirts and mastitis?

I call bullshit.

[Breeze54]

168. ....

Want a medal? I guess everyone is and should be just like you. :sarcasm:

[dropkickpa]

169. Wow, that was fucking rude

In what way did I garner that type of response from you??

[FLDCVADem]

171. No worries dropkicka...

...you just dared to disagree with her. Be careful, she'll be telling you that you're snarky in a minute. ;)

[Breeze54]

173. I call them as I see them, FLDCVADem.

You were snarky but I substituted another adjective for snarky.

Now if I had used that other word, it would have been rude.

And you not agreeing with my and many others liberal POV isn't the issue.

The loggerheads who are outraged is the issue. Mind blowing. :eyes:

[FLDCVADem]

177. Grow up

You've been incredibly rude to any number of people that have disagreed with you. I know that I wasn't the least bit nasty to you until you started with your nasty comments towards me, so please don't hurt yourself when you climb down off your high horse.

If you choose to believe that it is good for women to ask for special concessions when none are needed, have at it. If you think it furthers our cause to say "But I need extra help, I'm a girl!", then by all means, fight that battle. Just please don't expect all women to fall in behind you.

[Breeze54]

180. Mysogyny isn't just a 'male' thing.

Enjoy!

[Breeze54]

172. Your lack of empathy and your

ability to put everyone in the same box.

Everyone is not like you, or didn't you know that?

People are different and babies nursing habits are also different, from baby to baby.

As an experienced nursing Mom, you should know that too.

[dropkickpa]

178. And everyone is not like *YOU*

Or didn't you know that?

But I don't ask a body that tests 33,000 people yearly, to make me feel super-duper special and make an accomodation just for special little ol' breastfeeding me, because obviously NO other breastfeeding woman has done it.

My having a kid and breastfeeding doesn't make me special IN ANY WAY, hell, most of the women in the world do that and I don't hear them crying out for extra special treatment just because they managed to drop a kid AND feed it!

I am sick and tired of women running around acting as if they are the VERY FIRST woman on earth to give birth and breastfeed, as if it's some mystical and magical event that requires herculean feats of ability that NO ONE could possibly understand or duplicate, because they are diffferentttt and more special than anyone else.

I don't put ANYONE on a pedestal for doing what female mammilians have done since we grew mammary glands, sorry. She's not any more special than any other breastfeeding woman who's taken the test.

I'm going to sue my employer to let me work half days because I have severe insomnia and am exhausted most days. Wait a minute, I'm not special enough to get that accomodation? Where do they think we're living, the real world?

Oh yeah, I have ADD, also. Maybe that'll make my case stronger!

[Breeze54]

179. Wow! You need some serious rest, Mom.

[dropkickpa]

182. Nah, I've adapted my life to this

I'm special that way.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

195. I nursed my bio kids, and I totally agree with you

It's not like she doesn't have advanced notice to alter her nursing schedule.

Most four month olds aren't nursing every two hours, anyway. By that time my babies were nursing every three hours, and I could surely live if I had to go one more hour.

[WinkyDink]

174. She wasn't compelled to take this test, let alone at this time.

[Breeze54]

176. Yes she is.

She has a residency waiting that requires that she take this test.

[dropkickpa]

181. What's she going to do during that residency?

I haven't heard a response to this question yet. If this residency is so very pressing and immediate that she needs to take this test RIGHT NOW, is Mass Gen so accomodating that she'll be able to to continue her exact at home schedule (feedings every 2 hours) while trying to complete her residency? Are they going to make HER residency super special to accomodate her throughout? Somehow, I seriously doubt it.

I foresee a LOT of problems throughout this womans career, starting with a VERY toxic workplace environment.

[Breeze54]

184. I think the article said she's concentrating on research.

Residency's don't wait. The offer is on the table and she needs to pass this test so she can begin it.

None of her requests are out of line either. They are actually allowed by the USMLE.

---------

Test Accommodations

http://www.usmle.org/Test_Accommodations/test_accommodations.html

Test accommodations include but are not limited to the following:

o Assistance with keyboard tasks
o Audio rendition
o Extended testing time
o Additional break time
o Enlarged text and graphics
o Permission for assistive devices

[Horse with no Name]

185. I have worked with residents who have sex during their rotations

I don't think that breastfeeding is going to cause much harm.
The way it works...a First Year Resident works directly under a 4th Year Resident and in many cases there is also a Chief Resident available. That is only at night.
During the day there are more people available to cover her pumping.
I have worked with nurses, residents, doctors, etc...who have all had accommodations for lactating. I've never seen it to be a problem and this was at two very large medical schools. It's not permanent.

[gollygee]

187. The same thing anyone who works and pumps does

they work and pump. I'm sure there are other doctors and nurses at that hospital who pump during the day.

[dropkickpa]

189. I worked and pumped

Starting when my kid was 12 weeks old, but I didn't have to do it *every 2 hours* as she is trying to say is needed.

[gollygee]

190. She's just saying she can't go 4-1/2 hours without pumping

and a lot of moms who pump are in that circumstance. I'm still unclear about just how much time she asked for. I thought it was one 20-minute break each day in addition to the 45-minute break (which I'm guessing is a lunch break). The judge gave her 60 minutes, which would be one 30-minute pumping break each day? Is that right? I don't think she should have to forego lunch to pump, and a 20- or 30-minute break to pump each day seems very reasonable. Maybe I'm misunderstanding how much time she's getting? That is possible because there have been a lot of numbers thrown out.

[dropkickpa]

192. She asked for and got 60 ADDITIONAL minutes

From the Boston Herald article http://news.bostonherald.com/news/regional/general/view.bg?articleid=1034261

Sophie Currier, 33, sued after the National Board of Medical Examiners turned down her request to take more than the standard 45 minutes in breaks during the exam. She said she risks medical complications, including engorgement and inflammation, if she does not nurse her daughter, Lea, or pump breast milk every two to three hours.

A Superior Court judge last week rejected Currier’s request to order the board to give her an additional 60 minutes of break time. Appeals Court Judge Gary Katzmann overturned that ruling, finding that Currier needs the extra break time to put her on "equal footing" with the men and non-lactating women who take the exam.

HER request was for an ADDITIONAL 60 minutes, that's on top of the standard 45 minute break time, and that's what she got, 1hour and 45 minutes of break time per day. MORE than *twice* the time every other breast-feeding mother has gotten during the exam.

[gollygee]

193. It doesn't say she gets that each day

in fact, after reading it, I think she doesn't get 45 minutes each day either. It looks like she'll get 1 hour and 45 minutes for both days combined.


The board had cited the need to be consistent in the amount of break time given and said other nursing mothers who have taken the exam have found 45 minutes in breaks adequate.

But Katzmann said that amount of time was "insufficient" for Currier to nurse her baby, properly express breast milk, eat, drink and use the restroom over the course of the nine-hour exam.


So she would have gotten 45 minutes over the 9 hours. The 9 hours is split between two days but she'd still only have 45 minutes of break time, to use how she wanted over those 9 hours. She said that wasn't enough time for meals and pumping. I definitely agree with that.

[myrna minx]

186. Purple. Monkey. Dishwasher.

[BoneDaddy]

191. REmove

the gender flame baiting on both sides, I consider this a medical condition that needed to be addressed and it seems justice was done.