BIG EDIT, PLS READ (Maybe I'm crazy, but this was a really good day re: Iran IMHO.)

[WilliamPitt]

EDIT: OK, yes, crazy man. But I've spent the last three days working on Iran issues at various points - politics, social, an insane attack by us, etc. - and I've also been on Iran watch since 2003 low-grade style, and over these last few days I was really getting amped up. And suddenly today, the killer bill got killed.

Basically, any day these guys stop a war has to have some merit. They were going to pass that goddam spending bill, and the goddam partition bill, nonbinding as it may be. I've stopped ripping my guts out over stupid Iraq bills, not because I don't want to, but because I'd be dead if I did.

I didn't intend this as spin. I literally got so giddy about the Lieberman/Kyl bill getting it's fangs pulled that I tweaked a little. It'll happen again, I'm sure.

So. Gonna go to a baseball game and pretend I don't know about any of this shit for three hours. Later, and sorry for the bullshit above. We're not attacking Iran this week. I'm gonna be happy about that.

[Bonobo]

1. So is it not true that since the Iranian Guard is declared a terrorist organization...

that gives * all the legal power to go to war that he needs?

[mmonk]

2. Time will tell.

[antigop]

3. Briefly checking in this afternoon, but look at the video onTPM

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/

Webb still has issues with it....


Sorry, gotta go...

[mod mom]

4. Read this part, Will:

(5) that the United States should designate the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act and place the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of Specially Designated Global Terrorists, as established under the International Emergency Economic Powers Act and initiated under Executive Order 13224;

-snip
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1913722

AND THEN... this allows * to act on terrorist organizations:

Joint Resolution to Authorize the Use of United States Armed Forces Against Iraq



Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001 or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and

-snip

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/10/20021002-2.html

[BelgianMadCow]

44. I'm afraid you are right, but

is a "sense of the senate" a law? It is "non-binding", whatever that may mean

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. I agree. You're crazy.

Just like the senators who voted aye on the IWR and now claim that they didn't "know" that it would lead to war.

"If they want peace, nations should avoid the pin-pricks that precede cannon shots." Napoleon Bonaparte

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

35. We'd all like to believe our foresight is accurate. I don't believe Pitt's has been better,...

,...than my own.

I don't think he's crazy but I wholly disagree with the proposal that this amendment should be taken as something akin to a fart in the wind. I have personally witnessed how this cabal operates. This cabal is comfortably deceitful, operating IN evil intent (being "amoral" and all that) and will do what-the-fuck necessary to get what it wants. I mean, fuck,...how long does it take to ACCEPT/ACKNOWLEDGE the Machiavellian allegiance of these,..."fascists",...YES THEY ARE FUCKING FASCISTS (oh, so good to get that off my back).

Kyl is a loyalist. Lieberman is a weany. Both see their personal self-serving destinies riding on the neocons' power. Why on earth anyone would imagine this administration failed to get what it wanted without much more than a "OH,...SEEEEE,...we compromised" is simply fooling themselves. FUCK!!! We have had nearly seven years of persistent accumulation of absolute power by seemingly insignificant moves.

Okay, my head is exploding.

Gotta' go.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

6. Sorry, Will...

but I think you are wrong. Dead wrong. :shrug:

The Senate has now affirmed that the Iranian Army is a terrorist organization.

Bush can do whatever he wants to against Iran at this point, without further Congressonal input.

Existing laws give him that power.

Think he won't use it?

[cali]

7. I think most of us understand that there's no

force of law here, and that a lot of the bad was cut, but I find the declaration that the Revolutionary guard is a Terrorist organization, to be quite disturbing. Yes, bushco has the authority to attack Iran already, deriving from Constitutional Powers, but this bill seems to me to give him some degree of cover.

I think you're wrong.

[TwilightGardener]

8. The last Iran resolution in July passed 97-0. This one had dissenters--

and look who the dissenters were--some heavy hitters on foreign policy: Biden, Lugar, Boxer, Hagel, Dodd, Kerry, Feingold, Leahy, Kennedy. If they were concerned enough to object, then this wasn't harmless and meaningless. Otherwise, they would have covered their asses and safely voted no.

[sandnsea]

9. It was unnecessary

and anybody who voted for it is going to have it thrown in their face every time the topic of Iran comes up. If Democrats want to stop this march to war, now is the time.

Don't tell me you've gone over to the Hillary camp.

[Spazito]

10. It seems Senator Webb would, and did, argue it has great meaning

here is a video clip with both Lieberman and Webb re the amendment:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2007/09/lieberman_and_webb_speak_about.php

[mod mom]

13. I would trust the logic of Sen Webb on this one, as well as the list who voted against

it. My kind of Senators.

Guess Will's off to happyhour to celebrate. :eyes:

[EFerrari]

11. I'd like other choices, lol. n/t

[Zandor]

12. First K & R

But the Panic Petes will need a while to clam down.

[atreides1]

14. I Agree, You're Crazy

Experience with Bush has shown that he doesn't need specific permission to do what he wants, and he seldom asks for forgiveness for what he's done!

He and his allies in congress will use the words that are there, along with the Patriot Act and his Executive Order to start a war with Iran, by spinning that the IRGC is a special terrorist group and that under his EO, the use of the military to fight this entity is authorized, as long as he doesn't attack the regular Iranian military the warmongers won't have a problem with it.

As soon as the Iranians stand up to defend themselves, all hell will break loose, and those Dems who needed to look macho, will once again vote for war, mainly because once you've committed yourself to a course of action based on superficial needs, you can't back out.

But, who knows maybe you're right, we'll just have to wait and see.

[DemoTex]

15. " .. fart in a wind tunnel."

I didn't realize you had an aeronautical background, Will.

:rofl:

[Hydra]

16. Bush got what he wanted. Again.

He'll just say that the 97-0 and the 76-22 were clear indictments of Iran, and that Congress substantiated his evidence against said country.

As I and others have said, time will tell.

edited to change 23 to 22...my optimism apparently got the better of me :D

[5X]

17. What utter bull. no spin can defend this. n/t

[Justitia]

18. Yup, you're nuts. And Reid is fucking crazy! -eom

[Megahurtz]

19. If It Was So Meaningless

according to you then why did they have to vote on it? :think:

Sorry, I think you are wrong.

[mod mom]

20. Wow if this was a poll, Will, you'd be DU certified looney.

;)

[soothsayer]

21. cindy sheehan needs to replace pelosi, and webb should take reid's spot

[Sufficient Voice]

49. Webb is better than Reid on the War Issues,

simply because Webb seems to have a lot more guts. But Reid is better on most other issues.

[Zodiak]

22. I disagree

But thanks for trying to put lipstick on the pig.

[Junkdrawer]

23. Let me ask this:

If cross border raids by the US lead to escalation and eventually war, do you think maybe, just maybe this vote will be pointed to as proof that the Senate was consulted and their approval given?

:shrug:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

24. I see this as opening a door

Now when the IRGC acts in a military capacity for Iran it will be viewed as a terroristic act due to their being listed on the Specially Designated Global Terrorists list. It really is important to note that they are the first national military branch included on the list.

You recall those 15 British sailors that were captured earlier this year? That was an incident that ended peacefully then. In the future that will not be the case.

I see a potential for a great deal of harm to come from this act. Not a fair trade off for making some Senators appear like they're tough on terror in my eyes.

[Poll_Blind]

25. I think you're being overly optimistic. Like wildly optimistic. Ok, flat-out crazy.

  This designates Iran's IRGC as an FTO. Have you ever taken a look at the whole FTO list? I have many times and it's not all that big. And it's not all that big because the groups who are on it are some seriously messed-up motherfuckers, and stand out through acts of terrorism well beyond your average terrorist/freedom fighter group.

  Designating the entire ~400,000 person IRGC as a terrorist group is not only purely political, it legislatively gives the Bush administration all it needs to strike Iran.

  I have a late lunch so I don't have time to go into it until I get back but really consider Bush and his Israeli buddies will cook up when Iran not only harbors "the world's largest terrorist group" but is essentially the "world's largest terrorist group".

  Do you not hear bombs whistling down at that thought?

  Still, no? Take a look at page 7 where the word vital has been crossed out and replaced with the word critical. As you're probably familiar, words in business contracts and legislation carry a very specific weight. There's a world of difference between "may" and "shall", for instance. There is no more urgent a designation than "critical", that I know or have ever heard of.

It's a dead letter. Empty wind. A fart in a wind tunnel.

  I just don't see how you come to that conclusion.

PB

[Emit]

26. OK. Who paid you to write this, Will?

:evilgrin:

:hide:

[WilliamPitt]

27. PLEASE READ EDIT ABOVE

for explanation of seeming insanity.

[Hydra]

31. Your edit doesn't change what happened

and what may happen as a result.

We still surged

We still funded

We still gutted FISA

*sigh*

I hate being right about this...but the truth doesn't go away because we find it unpalatable.

[blondeatlast]

33. Thank you. The public will see this vote, too, and not understand any of the

runoed "niceties" and protocols involved.

We voted to attack my sister in law's people--that's what I have to deal with.

How to explain it to her?

[Hydra]

34. How do you explain anything else you can't control?

"I'm sorry it happened, I did my best to stop it."

At some point, though, someone is going to have to stop this runaway train. Who's willing to step up?

[TwilightGardener]

28. You obviously have a very low "giddy" threshold. Doesn't take much, does it?

[bleever]

29. I'll take your word for it, for now.

In the meantime, go Sox.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

30. You have been wrong, and I still like you. I believe you are missing the whole picture,...

,...but, I still think you are doing your best to be 'objective'.

Kyl wouldn't have given in to anything, unless he got what his master needed.

I have to ask this of you, though. Please, do NOT characterize anything the bush loyalists succeed to do as "empty wind' or a "fart in a wind tunnel" when there is a political presence far greater than poor ole' Byrd who said NAY. Of all people, I would think you to be the most skeptical given everything I have read by and about you. I would think you are, at least, more cautious than this about rendering a judgment on whether or not this cabal will advantage themselves of this declaration that Iran's primarily military presence is a "terrorist" group.

But,...we all have our opinions about how the future will work out and have only the choice of watching whether or not our opinions have played according to our foresights. How many of your opinions have worked according to your foresight?

[Spazito]

32. Very good point! It is a common practice to put deliberately

controversial clauses in a bill/amendment in order to slip in a clause/clauses that, at first blush, are much less dangerous. The real intent being to get the 'quiet' clause in as it is the KEY one in the long term.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

39. I feel exactly like I did in 11/02. Just because they "adapt" doesn't make the outcome,...

,..any damn different. When I say "they", I'm sure you know I am talking about the loyal PNACers.

I wish people would FUCKING STOP UNDERESTIMATING how this regime works. I realize the majority of us are such good people that we are, literally, INCAPABLE of imaging that evil works, let alone HOW evil people work.

We have to get beyond that.

No disrespect to Mr. Pitt but I do remember reading a piece by him that made me wonder if he was willing to face the human evil this cabal presents. The piece was along the lines of, "what's wrong with wanting to deliver democracy to Iraq".

I can no longer engage in any minimization of any possibilities this regime of ours is doing whatever it takes to gain absolute power.

[Individualist]

36. Orwell lives!

[Hydra]

38. Yes, and he wants to sue for trademark infringement! n/t

[Generator]

37. Have you really ever noticed that this admin

does anything, supports anything that doesn't have a hidden fuck up the world purpose? A nefarious fuck the liberals, gays, women, minorities, (hey even the old people with social security-but YOU don't fuck with the oldsters) all human beings purpose?

Because I think they either do nothing or fuck with us. That's what I think. Everything they do means something. And it's always something bad for humans that aren't rich white military contractors or those with access to bunkers.

[Hydra]

40. Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

"As long as I'm getting what I want, screw the rest of you!"
Commander AWOL

[annabanana]

41. Enjoy the game.

(that is all)

[Usrename]

42. Yeah, no wonder you hate yourself.

When Bush nukes Iran, don't you lose any sleep over it, it's only another million or two brown people.

And, anyhow, you can just keep telling yourself you had nothing to do with it, and how you've been the number one defender of the anti-war movement.

:puke:

[GCP]

43. WTF are you smoking?

I'll take odds we'll declare the Iranian Guard a terra'ist organization and have a new Tonkin Gulf happening - wam bam thank you ma'am.

[Warren Stupidity]

45. DU needs a wiki edit history feature badly.

re hypothesis pitt may be crazy: seems like a sure bet on this one. Have a nice baseball game. Go Sox! Yankees Suck!

Does anyone know when tomorrow's Hate Ahmadinejad Session is? I want to make sure my name is checked off on the 'participated' side.

[Danger Mouse]

46. The Two Minutes Hate will be soon. Be sure to particpate if you do not want to become an un-person.

[G_j]

47. certifiable n/t

[Danger Mouse]

48. Yeah, I'd say you're out of your fucking gourd. No offense, man.

This was a terrible defeat for the entire world.
The wording in this makes it very easy for Bush to turn it into another war.

[provis99]

50. why didn't they just declare Iran a foreign terrorist organization?

Thats what Bush really wants to do, but he always has to be so chickenshit and contorted about everything. (Did I just answer my own question?)

[mod mom]

51. Calling their army a terrorist organization is sufficient to start their war.

:mad:

[GeorgeGist]

52. Admit it Palm Frond ...

you really have been living in a tree in Fiji for the last seven years!