How SHOULD we deal with Iran's harsh anti-gay policies?

[Bicoastal]

After the dust has settled, DU has collectively come to 2 conclusions:

A) War with Iran is unjustified, unnecessary, and just plain WRONG.

and B) Iran's government is brazenly committing civil rights abuses in the name of religion.

We can all agree that Ahmadinejad's scariest moment on Monday came when he stated a flat denial that a gay population exists in Iran--a stupid thing to say, really, after trying so hard to paint himself and his country in a better light than it has been portrayed. But it was telling that the man was confused by the outcry from the audience--as if he assumed that everyone else would find his comments excusable. In his mind, it was seemingly no less diplomatically objectionable than saying that there was no bestiality in Iran's society--he wasn't seriously stating that it didn't exist (the man isn't stupid), but he implied in so many words that his government officially has 0 tolerance for what they consider to be an illegal practice. Not that that's hard to believe, after seeing that widely-circulted picture of the two young men with nooses around their neck, about to be executed by the state. Or reading what various LGBT activists and websites have to say about anti-gay policies in Iran...

So the question is--how do we as a country confront Iran on this issue and other similar abuses, without our military getting involved. Or should we not even presume to tell another country how to govern its people? In my book, there's no rationale--none--for the Iranian government to be doing this. Cultural differences are one thing, but capital punishment is quite another. And if Iran really wants to play a greater, more peaceful role in world affairs, they must address this issue sooner or later.

PS--I know, I know, much of our country hates homosexuality as well, but there's really no comparison. I feel pretty confident in saying that our government has never executed anyone merely for being gay, even in the dark ages. (I'd be interested if someone proved me wrong, though...has buggery ever been punishable by death in this country, post-1789?)

[lligrd]

1. Whatever Our Response Is, It Should Be The Same For

all countries that do the same, regardless of how much we want their oil or anything else. I guess we should treat them the way we treat Saudi Arabia.

[Bicoastal]

3. You mean, we should treat Saudi Arabia the same we currently treat Iran, right?

I don't think the Saudis do too badly by us....despite what they do.

[Mythsaje]

2. Our government didn't EXIST in the dark ages...

But I get your point.

About the only thing we can reasonably do is publically censure them for their actions and attitudes. Murder for religious reasons is simply wrong. Just like honor killings. I've never really been on board with the cultural relativity thing. There are just some practices that are simply beyond tolerance.

Of course, I get in trouble sometimes because of that attitude. Some people don't like it.

I have a co-worker who's planning on going to India on a religious mission...apparently some Christian fellow has started a school there that strips all its students of any sign of caste...Brahmins attend with untouchables and no one knows where someone else stands in the caste system.

My wife says we don't have the right to do that because it's their culture. Personally I think the caste system sucks and, though I have my issues with Christianity, I can't see this as a bad thing.

[canetoad]

27. Censure away

i say either become relevant or shut up. Up to you.

[liberalmuse]

4. Deal with our own, first.

You can't force another country to abide by your morals, especially if you don't have any. Let's face it, if certain denominations of Christians ran this country, they'd be executing gays just like the Islamic fundamentalist countries do. You're right that our government doesn't systematically execute gays, just blacks. Our government also allys with nations who persecute and execute gays, women and other minority groups. When America allows gays the same rights as heterosexuals, and minority groups have the same opportunities as whites, and the poor get the same justice as the rich, then maybe we'll be a moral beacon that other nations will follow.

[Bicoastal]

5. I don't agree.

Again, our country is far from perfect when in comes to tolerance, but there's simply no comparison. If the countries were ranked on a scale, with 10 being complete government tolerance and 1 would being complete intolerance, our country would get a 7.5. That's a straight C, which is a grade no self-respecting student would want on their report card. BUT, on the same scale, Iran would get a 2--and that's being generous. I think we're sufficiently advanced enough to criticize the capital punishment of gays in Iran and not look like hypocrites. (Of course, race is a whole different can of worms.)

I agree that our government shouldn't allign itself with any nation that practices similar intolerance. But a moral beacon? Even if America was a perfect bastion of openness, a proud Muslim country like Iran would never change its policies simply in order to follow our example--governments based on a theological foundation simply don't work like that.

[mhatrw]

22. Your scale is complete bullshit.

Consider how the USA plays to any Muslim in the Middle East. We invaded Iraq under false pretenses. We've murdered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in the process, littered their country with depleted uranium and basically caused an ongoing low level civil war. We've turned well over a million Iraqis into refugees based on a wild eyed, no holds barred doctrine of pre-emption because of a relatively minor attack on exactly three of our buildings and four of our planed carried out by a total of fifteen Saudis and zero Iraqis. We torture, sexually demean amd murder Iraqi political prisoners at our whim. What does Iran do that compares to that? Uphold their own barbaric and backward laws in their own country? How can that possibly compare?

[Drum]

13. I agree with your post.

'Twould be great if we got our own house in order first...I've had as much as I can take of American intervention for awhile....

[dailykoff]

6. A good start would be getting the story straight.

1) Ahmadinejad is quoted as having said "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country." He did not make "a flat denial that a gay population exists in Iran" as you state in your OP.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5hATGOzv6YSmgeMY1zdYbdpyrG2cw

2) Apparently some deceptively named "LGBT activists and websites" are making false claims about a hanging that recently took place in Iran, which appears not to have been punishment for simply being gay, but for far more serious crimes including murder:

“It was not a gay case,” said Paula Ettelbrick, executive director of the International Gay & Lesbian Human Rights Commission, taking issue with the Human Rights Campaign’s statement that was quick to condemn the execution as anti-gay.

http://washingtonblade.com/print.cfm?content_id

But don't let facts interfere with our right to nuke Iran.

[Bicoastal]

7. Bwahahaha! Oh, this has got to be a joke.

So what you're telling me is, what the President of Iran MEANT to say was "The gays in Iran are not like, i.e. not similar to the gays in America?"

You're a piece of work, my friend. Thanks for attempting to turn a perfectly civilized discussion into a "You criticize Iran, so you're a warmonger" shouting match.

[mhatrw]

25. No, what he said was ""In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country."

What he meant by that is open to interpretation. He might have meant not as many, not as openly or none at all. But why the comparison if he meant none at all? Why not simply "In Iran we don't have homosexuals"?

[Gonzo Gardener]

8. Has someone here suggested Nuking Iran?

Just asking, I must be unable to comprehend what the OP was getting at. Can you explain it to me please?! My feeble brain just can't make that big of a leap. I just can't get from here:

"So the question is--how do we as a country confront Iran on this issue and other similar abuses, without our military getting involved."

It's worth repeating...

"...WITHOUT our military getting involved."

...to here: But don't let facts interfere with our right to nuke Iran.

Help me please.

[leftynyc]

17. Yes, poor, misunderstood Ahmadinejad

That's quite the pretzel you're turning yourself into.

[krispos42]

9. Drench them with American pop culture

"Will & Grace" and "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" reruns, especially.

Then wait a couple of generations for it to filter through.

Best I can think of offhand, but the more they hate us for having an arrogent prick of a pResident, but longer it will take Western culture to seep in.

[Gonzo Gardener]

10. I don't know that we can directly support abused Iranian gays right now.

I do know that their government is just as representative of it's people as ours is at this point in time. As is the case in America, the people there are much more progressive than their leaders.

The answer to end intolerance in Iran is the same as it has been for the US. It must be fought from within. That is, until, US foreign policy truly supports human rights around the globe.

Or, ahem, we could just bomb the hell out of 'em. :shrug:

[Swamp Rat]

11. We should take up Ahmadinejad's offer and send a whole lotta students and professors over there.

We should send tens of thousands of Americans, from students to unemployed skilled workers, giving them grant money to go there and represent us while learning their language and customs.

We should challenge Ahmadinejad on HIS turf.

We should bring America to them peacefully... using our brains, not our brawn.

[TheUniverse]

12. Theres nothing we can do.

It's their country, they set the rules. It is up to the people of Iran to demand their rights.

[Beerboy]

14. Is it a given that the U.S. should interfere with Iran's sovereign policies?

I don't see it.
There is no scenario whatsoever that an attack upon the IRI would ever be justified. And B), the United States stands naked before the world community as having murdered the most civilians, on purpose, just because they could/can.
We that live in America may lament international developments, but that is only to avoid introspection.
The U.S. military being involved wrt Iran should be off the table in any eventuality; perhaps the way to go for Iran to keep it's corporate customers is to hear from them. E-mail the Iranian consulate and express your doubts and misgivings and complaints regarding how the USA invades, tortures and murders right now, as it always has.
If there are 'Islamic terrorists', they could wipe out dozens of American cities (yeah right, GOP), and it wouldn't change America's overwhelming guilt one whit.
U.S. citizens/the government have no place pretending to get on the high-horse regarding how other cultures and sovereign nations carry out their own affairs when it's all a huge exercise in hypocrisy. It's no wonder the U.S. is the least popular country and viewed as the most dangerous when one compares it's rhetoric with the hundreds of millions it has killed in it's history.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Have We?

"And B), the United States stands naked before the world community as having murdered the most civilians, on purpose, just because they could/can."

Stalin killed 20,000,000 Russians...Mao killed 50,000,000 Chinese...

[Beerboy]

16. That may or may not be true,

but even if it is, those crimes would not have been possible for those governments to carry out but for the intercession of American corporations, with the knowledge and blessing of the U.S. government. Read up on how the infant Soviet Union under Stalin industrialized Russia and imprisoned/murdered millions, impossible but for U.S. technical know-how.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Most Of These Deaths Occurred When Russia Was Shut Off From The West

And almost all of the deaths under Mao occurred before he had any contact with the West.

Bad people kill other people, sometimes by the millions, even right now, and we have little to do with it...

Lots of evil... To say we have cornered the market gives us too much credit...

[qdemn7]

24. May or may not be true?

What about the 20,000,000 Chinese the Japanese murdered during their invasion and occupation of China? Or is that our fault too? :sarcasm:

[Thothmes]

32. knowledge and blessing

Which American corporations interceded in and aided Mao Tse Tung(sic) in great leap forward/Great Cultural Revolution? Which American Corporations aided/assisted the NKVD and Stalin in the collectivization of Soviet agriculture, suppression of the kulacks, and the purges of the 1930s.

[leftynyc]

19. Don't forget Hitler and Pol Pot

Bush is a piker compared to these guys. How about Mugabe and Charles Taylor? Bush is bad, the worst pres of my lifetime, but let's keep it real here.

[killbotfactory]

28. If we calculated the number of dead the US is responsible for

the same way those numbers have been calculated they would be comparable. We killed millions in Vietnam and bombing Cambodia. A million are dead from the Iraq war. The slave trade, genocide and decimation of native americans, the civil war. The war in the Philippines to "civilize the savage hordes" killed millions. We gave support, guidance, and funding to numerous death squad running dictators all over Latin America. Or repressive regimes in Africa. We've lent our support to numerous dictators and murderous regimes throughout the world. Not to mention the numerous victims of corporate crimes like pollution, or convincing people that smoking tobacco was healthy, knowing it wasn't, and then lying about it to their customers over numerous decades. Or the people dieing due to lack of adequate health care.

Is the ultimate evidence of our nations humanity supposed to be that we might have killed a few million less people than the most brutal totalitarian governments ever unleashed upon the earth? Would that give the moral highground to Al Qaeda who has killed far less innocent people than our military? Or should we break it down by a per-capita basis?

[mhatrw]

18. Why the focus on Iran?

Yes, it's very disturbing that Iran, Saudia Arabia, Pakistan, Yemen and Nigeria all execute gays and that gays can be imprisoned just for being gay in Afghanistan, Algeria, Angola, Bahrain, Cameroon, Egypt, Ethiopia, Grenada, Lebanon, Laos, Liberia, Kuwait, Libya, Malawi, Malaysia, the Marshall Islands, Mongolia, Morocco, Nepal, Oman, Papua New Guinea, Puerto Rico, Qatar, Saint Lucia, Samoa, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Singapore, the Solomon Islands, Somalia, Sri Lanka, the Sudan, Swaziland, Syria, Tajikistan, Tanzania, Trinidad & Tobago, Tunisia, Togo, Tuvalu, Uganda, the United Arab Emirates, Uzbekistan, Zambia and if the Republican Party has its way, Texas.

We definitely should do whatever we can to stop this heinousness, but it is not a strictly Iranian phenomenon.

[Perseid]

21. The USA has no right to involve itself

in the policies of another country, as repellent as those policies may be.

none

[JCMach1]

23. While 'government' hasn't, individuals and whole groups of people have...

One thing that people don't understand about Sharia, especially as practiced in Iran (and places like Pakistan) is how decentralized it is... VERY LOCAL courts make decision.

Ignorant backwoods people can be found everywhere (Idaho, or Iran).

The Mullahs who are the masters of Iran will not change that structure. So, there is virtually nothing the central government there can do.

So, don't compare localized Sharia to a US Federal government... that comparison also doesn't work.

Do local people kill Gay people in America? All to often...

Did we blame Clinton for Matthew Shepard?

Let's blame the President of Iran for the things he is directly responsible for... and there is plenty of that!

[canetoad]

26. Do you really think its appropriate

or wise to speak for ALL DU?

[killbotfactory]

29. How do we deal with any other country who executes or imprisons gay people?

How did other countries deal with our oppression of gay people over the years? How about our officially sanctioned discrimination within our own military?

[Enrique]

30. economic sanctions

(with an exemption for Halliburton, of course).

[La Lioness Priyanka]

36. wrong. by keeping the country poorer and more isolated we further prevent social change.

[PDenton]

31. Those human rights policies are best addressed

through the UN General Assembly and through various international and NGO groups. Not through military action.

George Bush has probably killed more gay people through his stupidity and crass disregard for international law than Iran has through its willful policies. Just keep that in mind.

[sinkingfeeling]

33. Why shouldn't we deal with the USA's treatment of gays instead? When was the US elected to

be the 'answer' to all problems on the planet? And since, we seem to make a mess out of most of them, I suggest we mind our own business.

[lonestarnot]

34. He even ask those with knowledge of addresses of gays to give them to him.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. we cant. the reason that iran oppresses its gay folks is not quite that simple to solve

it includes things such as poverty, wealth, inequality of wealth, lack of education, fundamental religion as a major form of identity, sexism etc, political unrest.

basically everything that hold a country back from being able to have progressive change.

its not that easy to solve.

we can allow gay iranians political asylum.

[MedleyMisty]

37. Has "Do as I say, not as I do" ever worked in any situation?

Just wondering.

And even if it did work and we could tell another country to straighten up domestically while we still haven't legalized same sex marriage and people are still killed just for being gay by individuals, if not by the state, what would give us the right to do that? It sounds pretty "white man's burden" to me. Gotta civilize the brown savages, right?

It's not a problem unique to Iran. Prejudice and hatred is a problem that all of humanity shares. If we're going to take out all the intolerant hateful violent assholes, we're going to have to just blow all of our nukes and leave the planet a smoking ruin.

Support equality and freedom and tolerance. Everywhere. Starting within yourself.

If you're around people who are talking hate, stand up to them. Like the woman in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Maybe she made them think, or made some of the other audience members think. Even if she didn't, even if just one person who reads the article is inspired by it to think and to look at the prejudice in themselves and in their society, it struck a blow for good.

Most humans are programmed to hate the Other. It probably gave us some advantage back when we lived in small competing tribes, and it's been reinforced by our nurturing ever since. It's not something that can be quickly and easily overcome, especially not with more hatred of the Other.

So, as for what individual Americans can do - stand up to hate here in the US, in our communities and in our homes and in ourselves. Use the internet to build a community with other people who are standing up to hate, here and abroad. Inspire and support and love each other and keep fighting the good fight.

If you particularly want to support Iranian homosexuals, do some Googling. There must be some humanitarian venture that offers aid to the Iranian victims of hatred that you can join. If not, start one.

As for what governments can do - I need to brush up on the history of how the world dealt with the apartheid in South Africa. If everyone can agree on a course of action that targets all nations that execute people for being homosexual and sticks to that course of action and it doesn't involve killing innocent people, by bombs or by starving, then all right. But that's not very likely to happen, because at the moment most governments are headed by some of the worst haters and thus can't really be looked to for answers on this issue and are more part of the problem than a possible part of the solution.

I think the least that the US government could do individually would be to offer asylum to homosexual people from the countries that execute gay people, but can you really see that happening with our current government? Oh well, you can still write your congresspeople and hold marches and agitate for it.

So, in short - stand up to prejudice and hate wherever you find it and inspire others to do the same. The struggle against hatred is a global struggle, and it's a long and bloody one. And we're losing a lot of battles right now, but I think we're still winning the war.