Leave IRAQ by 2013? Leave earlier? How about an intelligent discussion, policy, NOT candidates.

[autorank]

Can we all agree to this sequence on Iraq or improve it based on shared values about the right of
people to determine their own destiny? My suggestion is to NOT mention any candidate names. Use an
inductive process - figure out what what you and we believe as Democrats then move to the candidate
questions after settling the issues.

There are two legitimate factors determining our extended stay in Iraq.

1) The desires of the Iraqi people

a) The Iraqi people, like people everywhere have a right to choose their own destiny.
b) Their choice should not be influenced by another state or puppet leaders
c) Therefore the manifest will of the Iraqi people should guide the presence or absence of our troops.

2) The safety of the troops and the American people

a) Our troops are clearly safer at home.
b) Our presence in Iraq creates more hostility toward America
c) Therefore troop and citizen safety is served by leaving Iraq.

3) The information below along with previous surveys confirms the desire of a clear majority of
Iraqi’s to end the presence of U.S. troops in their country

The Iraqi people want us out. Some want us out right now. Some want a timed withdrawal in less
than a year. There is no indication that a majority of Iraqis want our presence on their soil
through 2013.

As a result of this, we have two choices.

1) Meet directly with the Iraqi groups and individuals to negotiate our way through a withdrawal
that works for all sides,

OR

2) Continue our policy of ignoring what Iraqis really want. Rely on a government that allows
death squads to express the will of the Iraqi people. Stay until 2013.

Which choice do we want as citizens of the United States?

79% of Iraqis oppose our presence. This is consistent with previous surveys
Can we also agree that staying in Iraq on the basis of our military position? 79% of all Iraqis OPPOSE our presence. THEY WANT US TO LEAVE. ABC, BBC, NHK Survey, 9/10/2007. They want us to leave, in part, because their lives are in free fall. Only 39% say their own life is going well while fewer, only 29%, expect their lives to improve. Failure to secure the safety of citizens is the cause.

[Me.]

1. Bilgewater!

Such absolute nonsense was spoken last night it should be sent and stored in Davy Jone's locker. And notice how they sent mixed signaks on Iran?

[mike_c]

2. I agree that the issue should guide the discussion, not candidate boosting...

...but in my mind there are some other considerations that you've not discussed. First and foremost, the war against Iraq is an international crime against humanity, and it will remain so no matter what the Iraqis or Americans want now. That has to be weighed along with any other considerations. Staying in Iraq continues the crime against peace.

Also, there are no good reasons for continuing to occupy Iraq, or at least none that aren't utterly venal. The invasion and occupation of Iraq are the centerpiece of an imperialist, hegemonist foreign policy that all Americans should be ashamed of. Again, regardless of anyone's desires to continue the occupation, the reasons we invaded and continue to build permanent bases and the mega-embassy should be considered too. They are WRONG for American and wrong for the world.

Finally, the war against Iraq has become an essential element of the war against the Constitution. It helps justify the rape of civil liberties at home, and it is a terrible drain on the U.S. economy-- our children's futures-- and it will continue to bleed us for decades to come.

My point is that what the Iraqis want NOW after five years of occupation, and what Americans want NOW after they supported the invasion and let the situation become what it has become, are really beside the point in my mind. The war is utterly wrong and would be if every Iraqi sent Bush a letter asking for the occupation to continue. The war is wrong no matter how ignoble it will be to admit our crimes and do whatever restitution is necessary. The war is dead wrong no matter how many politicians will have to eat crow, or see the end of their careers, because they enthusiastically bought into it in 2002 and 2003-- and even in 2004. The war is WRONG even if doing the right thing to end the madness brings down the Democratic Party because its leaders were too weak and greedy to stand up when they could have done some good, before all this blood was spilled.

[autorank]

7. We agree. I wanted to lay out the choices right now in terms of self determination.

That first. From my point of view, this is an easy question to settle - stay/go - if you really believe in self determination. They don't want us there. That's been obvious for a good while. Bye the logic of the surviving rationale for invasion, bringing 'democracy' to Iraq, whatever that means, we should have an election as soon as possible with a ballot something like this:

1) Should US troops leave Iraq. Yes No

2) If YES, should they leave within 6 months, 9 months, 1 year, years.

The White House isn't in Iraq to deliver democracy and they won't ever let this happen.

However, I think that a proposal for a direct vote by the citizens, "direct democracy, from supporters of self determination is an argument that can't be countered. What's someone going to say? No, let's not let them choose, they're like "our little children" or some such hogwash.

It's a logic trap - You care about these people don't you? They have the universal rights that Madison and Jefferson advocated don't they? Let them vote

I'm glad you mentioned the civilian deaths. You and are are totally in sync:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0709/S00326.htm
The real concern is simple. Can this nominee reign in and stop the ongoing illegal acts of the Bush-Cheney administration? The White House sat idly by while Enron, SNIP

All that pales by comparison to the Iraq War. There are nearly 4,000 Americans casualties plus tens of thousands injured for life. A study by researchers at Johns Hopkins University published in 2004 placed Iraqi civilian deaths at 600,000. This month, a British polling group reported that the figure has risen to 1,000,000 civilian deaths. These staggering figures refer to people, civilian non combatants, who would be alive were it not for the Bush-Cheney invasion.

These are deaths above and beyond those expected if we hadn't invaded, not necessarily deaths the invasion and occupation cause.

That needs to be out there all the time.

It's like tying someone to a chair and beating them. The least you can do is ask them if they want to go free and, if they say yes, then honor the wish.

Unless someone believes that not only Saddam but the entire Iraqi people did 911, there would be unanimous agreement to a vote and an adios.

[Trisket-Bisket]

3. I have a couple of questions.

What are the realistic logistics of leaving?

How long will it take?

What will become of those Iraq's that have supported us?

Which forces, consequences,etc. in that region will fill the vacuum left by US withdrawal?

How can anyone answer these and many other questions given the deception and lies that have charactorized the whole bloody mess?

[truedelphi]

4. Those are my concerns as well - I know I want our people home

as soon as logistically possible.

But what happens then? Experts on world affairs are rightfully pointing out that the resulting vacuum could be filled by Russian troops or Chinese troops, and that doesn't guarantee any better of a future for Iraq than the current hellish situation.

We broke it - and so how do we fix it? Or who do we get to fix it in our place?

The de-stabiliazation brought about by our war has now established a raging civil war in the streets and neighborhoods of many Iraq cities. There is ethnic cleansing of the Sunni by the Shi'ia. And whenever the Sunni have the upper hand the situation is simply reversed.

[autorank]

10. Excellent points. But consider this.

The ultimate question is what is the will of the Iraqi people?

What do they want? The surveys shown indicate that they want us to leave, by huge numbers.

In point #1 of the OP, I'd originally written, "needs and desires" and then I caught myself. That's condescending. We know what their needs are? Hardly. We broke their country and culture to smithereens.

I'm hearing people challenge the notion of American "exceptionalism" - which is great.

The position that the Iraqis decide their own fate is the first principle here. Everything flows from that.

On the practical questions, that's why it's advisable to plan and work together with them. We know they'd say, leave, now if not sooner. So it's a matter of saying, yes. Then we could work on those details.

The notion that it takes until 2013 is not sensible in any way. The British force, small, just left in a few days. We're more entrenched but there are people in the military who plan this stuff and know it cold.

If the goal is to keep the embassy bunker, the oil field concessions, etc. then we're talking about never.

In an odd way, forcing the issue of Iraqi choice saves our country because it frees us from the onerous burden THEY placed upon us. The American people didn't sign for a war based on lies. And I'm sure, the vast majority would want to follow the choice of the people made through a truly fair election.

[FogerRox]

37. Trisket, good points

My list is called The Avenue of "A bigger picture"

-The solution will likely be regional.

-A strong non secular Iraqi Federal government may likely be needed to balance the region out, somewhat in the way Saddam did.

-If I was President I think I could tidy up the whole kit & kaboodle in under a year. Details include:

1) up to 1 million regional troops to displace US troops.

2) #1 would happen because I would feverishy work for peace, like President Carter did 30 yrs ago.

3) My broker is E. F. Hutton, and E. F. Hutton says......

[Kurovski]

5. The 2013 date actually created a wave of nausea within me.

Iraqis want us out, Americans want us out.

And a handful of folks with power command us to remain, to die and kill, to cause insanity, pain and despair for the miserable power and oceans of wealth that sustains them.

And there we can see the power of "Democracy" as it is enforced today. The Democracy that all this blood is ostensibly shed over.

R

[autorank]

15. I had a similar reaction. That's why I posted this - they missed a step.

When you visit someone for the weekend, do you have the option to say, "I've decided to say another three months. I'm going to run the house also. You have no real choice in the matter. I'll have my person get back to you when we're ready to leave, if we even bother to tell you or say good bye."

"The Man Who Came to Dinner and Preemptively Invaded Your House"

[mmonk]

6. For those that say if we leave, there will be chaos,

last month, over 500 Iraqis were killed in the most horrific bombing so far and more than 1,500 wounded. This is with our troop "surge" for "order" at an all time high. Catch a clue, our presence isn't making it better, even with more troops. How long will it take to figure out? The worst that could happen is it remains the same IMO.

[autorank]

16. I think you're right.

There's chaos there because the war mongers caused the chaos. NOw they turn around and say, the fruit of their rotten scheme is the reason it should continue. That type of audacity should be a crime!

[Vilis Veritas]

8. Do we really have a choice anymore?

The hypnotique fix is in. The media has thoroughly brain-washed vast portions of the masses via tv and a constant bombardment of fear...

Regardless, of what those who are not hypnotized want or desire, does it really matter? Do a few hundred thousand disjointed and disorganized masses stand a chance against 270 million robot sheep?

Will the billions that they have spent building huge bases in Iraq just be abandoned? I just can't see it...I agree we can probably do something to avert the war with Iran, if we can get some of the Dem leaders to actually stand up and hold their own, but if they cave to the pressure like they have been then the plan to stay in Iraq will happen, regardless of the noise from the small ignorable few...and the war will escalate to Iran and then...fucking draft, blood, and more blood.

I am not into fooling myself anymore - I have to start thinking small, the butterfly affect...work locally on local issues...I just have a hard time reconciling the numbers...270 million hypnotized sheep to thousands who are awake...

Feels like farting in a wind storm...no affect.

Please tell me I am wrong...

of course I am just average joe...not connected activist...or insider...just an IT guy who found DU and is getting tired of being told to do more...when it is fucking impossible to do more and raise a kid and hold a job and pay the bills...I suppose I could give it all up and let my kid live in a trailer and feed him shit and tell him, 'Daddy has to do this...you'll understand someday what it means to sacrifice"...oh wait, my wife would divorce me and I wouldn't have to worry about my kid...

edited to add rant at end...and to apologize for the whole fucking rant...just keep doing what you all do and remember us when you come to unlock the pens...

[autorank]

28. I like the message. Especially the part about living in a

trailer, "down by the river." That's the state of most people here but you're doing what most people need to do and many achieve - informing yourself. Share it with friends and you've made a difference.

I'm happy to tell you you're wrong on the masses. They're getting hip, they're turning on Bush in droves, he's finished, and they're about one big scandal away from total distrust of the government. Hang in there and work on the IT shop and our friends. Was a nice rant though:evilgrin: Had a Chris Farley quality to it.

[Vilis Veritas]

30. Farley was my hero...

Only people I love and trust would have seen that one...I must admit the Tequila was running a little freely last night...:evilgrin:

I do hope you are right about the masses. I find it very difficult to get people to realize that they need to be informed. So I work with kids.

I spend a lot of time trying to educate people about how to disconnect from the TV...I joined some youth community organizations so that I could positively influence the kids (even if it is one)...and get them to turn off the TV and start thinking critically. I teach 13 kids in a youth program and I am a soccer coach...my son watches almost no tv and he studies at night, doing extra work - and he is happy to do it - I do not push.

As far as educating myself, here are some facts about me, needed or not:

I was part of the deseg busing movement in the sixties. Eyes opened wide early. I protested Nixon in 71-72. I lived in the projects after leaving home at 18. I have lived in a 'trailer down by the river', only the river was a ditch and it was polluted, so I had to sneak into the y to take showers. I worked hard, ate shit, and jeopordized my health to make it out of all of that...when I finally made it, I forgot about what I was back then...how thankful I was when I could buy a loaf of bread, some chopped ham and 7 cans of tomato soup (food for a week)...

Now, I do not live in a trailer and I find myself struggling to keep my eyes open...the vast majority of people I see are asleep...

Thanks for the words...

[me b zola]

9. The 3 Democratic frontrunners support permant bases in Iraq

A petrmanent US presence is what is fueling the violence in Iraq. Iraqis have the same right as we have to self determination. Hands off their oil, give them back their nation.

[autorank]

12. "the Iraqis have the same right as we have to self determination"

Simple and eloquent. That's the essence. And they suffer the same cynical manipulation of the process of public choice that we do. The Iraqi people want it, we want it - both by large majorities.

The debate is going on with out this essential question - what do the Iraqi people want?

Here's a catch phrase, "Let's ask the Iraqi people." Who could object to that with any degree of intellectual honesty?

[Vilis Veritas]

13. There is no way any frontrunner will drop presence in Iraq.

The stakes are to high. They will be assassinated, politically. Billions, shit, trillions are at stake here.

Fuck it. We need to quit deluding ourselves as to why the Dem leaders are caving...cave and live to fight another day or fight and die a political death...

s_

[msedano]

11. kurds should split away

and form their own nation, being so far out of step with iraqi public opinion.

logic is compelling: full and forthwith abandonment of the "mission" in iraq is the only way to stop the daily killiing of unitedstates military women and men, and the collateral killings of iraqis for being on the wrong side of some asshole's bomb. that a few polls have the public clamoring for our exit is icing on the cake.

when unitedstates forces empty the streets, locals will take back the streets block by block. or cops will hold onto their authority. or turkey will sweep in and swallow up first the kurds, then, inevitably, the rest of iraq, where iran and syria would negotiate with the turks for, if not peace, control.

no matter what, in the next few years, a lot of iraqis are going to kill each other. and the blood will be completely on "our" hands.

recommended

[autorank]

14. That makes sense. The Kurds should be on their own but that means that the Turks

will show up and your scenario will emerge in some way.

There's probably some chance for a deal between the Kurds and Turkey if there was international pressure. The Turks want to be in the EU. Attacking the kurds might not be "cool" in the land of the mighty Euro. Be reasonable with the Kurds and you're in would be an incenteive.

The blood of all who died is on the hands of those who told the lies, from the White House to the Pentagon to the Judith Miller stories touted by the New York Times.

We need to do one positive thing, not to atone, that's for the Bush people, but because it makes a point - give these people the dignity of telling us to leave and then seeing us move out as per their wishes. The 1,000,000 are gone and that debt can't be repaid. The rest need some thing.

Randomly picked 100 Americans. Give them an intensive course on the situation and disabused any who still believe of the notion that there was 911 involvement there. I'll bet a large sum of money that they would overwhelmingly come to the conclusion of the OP, the one that's obviously intended. I have ZERO DOUBT.

[msedano]

19. 100 random unitedstates voters...

will turn up 30% who know you're wrong just for asking. "no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the american people" mencken wrote. sure enough, yesterday i was at a dead sea scrolls exhibit gift shop. a curio on sale was a framed reproduction of a parchment fragment. a customer asked the clerk, "are these real?" going back a few thousand dead soldiers, the night folk gathered to mourn the 2000th US military killed in action, i walked back to my car eavesdropping on some fellow whining over his cell phone that the "protestors are all against the troops."

[FogerRox]

38. Either split Itaq up or...A strong non secular Iraqi Federal government

-The solution will likely be regional.

-A strong non secular Iraqi Federal government may likely be needed to balance the region out, somewhat in the way Saddam did.

-If I was President I think I could tidy up the whole kit & kaboodle in under a year. Details include:

1) up to 1 million regional troops to displace US troops.

2) #1 would happen because I would feverishy work for peace, like President Carter did 30 yrs ago.

3) My broker is E. F. Hutton, and E. F. Hutton says......

[KharmaTrain]

17. Withdrawl Vs.Retreat

This is an issue that needs to be discussed objectively...not with pipe dreaming or rhetoric. Maybe someone with a military background could chip in here...and that's what it would take to removed our troops safely. While I'd love to just give all 150,000 plane tickets home, withdrawing safely will not be a quick or easy process. Not only is there the removing of the troops, but also all the support staff, thousands of Iraqi "colaborators" and mercenaries. Then there's the billions in equipment there...trucks that will be needed for the next Katrina or other disaster and making sure those weapons aren't used against us on the way out.

Tonight, it was pointed out that Nixon began troop withdrawls from Vietnam in Fall '69...the war endured another three years with another 28,000 American dead. To many, that withdrawl is seen as the helicopters lifting off the American embassy and the dumping of equipment into the Gulf of Tonkin. But that was the "residual" force that was left behind as the last combat troops had left Vietnam two years earlier.

Last night's question was too simplistic...and one that needs to be fleshed out so we all can realize what's at stake here. Do we have an orderly evacuation of our forces and to where? To Kuwait (Murtha's plan)? Afghanistan? Stateside? Which troops get rotated out? Who ensures the safety or will we have to shoot our way out? There are a ton of variables that need to be discussed when one says "withdrawl".

It's political suicide at this point to give a definitive drop dead date without having some plan in place that states how a withdrawl is to take place. We've had enough of the bullshit planning...that's how we got into this mess. Kucinich claims he can get the troops out in three months...I'd like to see how he'd do it. Words sound good, actions and consequences are another. I want a withdrawl, but I want our troops home safe. It may take a year, two years or more for that to happen...but at least we know it's happening.

The boooosh regime has got us stuck deep in this quagmire...no matter how it turns out we lose. The question is how many more lives do we have to needlessly lose before the last soldier comes home. Will it be a hasty retreat or an organized withdrawl?

[autorank]

22. From the Bush UN speech to invocation was what 5-6 months

There were 100,000 troops in Kuwait at the invasion launch. So large numbers of troops can be moved in months, not years. That was without the help of Turkey, which surely would help

The idea of letting the Iraqi's choose for us to leave has one real benefit. It would be such a bold gesture of respect, we might get out with much less harassment than we would expect otherwise.

I'm not sure that I understand the comment about "political suicide." As I see it, the invasion plus the conduct immediately afterwords (allowing the looting and so forth, power, water problems, unemployment, etc.) and over the longer term after the invasion, created a huge act of sepaku for our political standing in the world. It also created a series of internal crises that we'll not recover from in our lifetimes, I suspect.

Here are some snips from something I wrote a while ago.

A Majority of Iraqis Want the United States Out Without Delay
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0703/S00319.htm

The open support of deadly force against our troops is as much information as we need to reach a rational decision on leaving. It’s more than enough information to discard the absurd argument for an extended timetable prior to departure. But for the sake of the quibblers, who use any argument to prolong this tragic conflict, let’s see what the Iraqi’s think.


May 05 and 1st Sep 06 poll – immediate exit of US forces;
2nd Sep 06 poll – leave in less than 1 year.
USA Today 5/05 – US State Dept 9/06 - WPO.Org 9/06

Our domestic debate on a timetable is framed by the irony of popular Iraqi opinion on the subject. By over a two to one margin, 53% to 23%, the Iraqi people see a specific timetable for a U.S. departure as benefiting the Iraqi government. Given that, on what basis can U.S. politicians argue that an extended timetable is necessary to protect Iraqis? They see a timetable as beneficial to their government.

The Iraqis don't need to be "right" on a timeline in order to have their wishes reflected in actions to end the occupation. They need a means to have a dialog, a vote, and then a plan to end this.

[KharmaTrain]

26. We Need A Timetable First...

Yes, 100,000 troops went storming across the border...guns ablazin', but that's not the way any of us want to see our military exit. Also, consider there are now only only 50,000 additional troops and tons of guns, transports, planes, artillery and other materials that need to either be moved or safeguarded first. Then there comes the problem of Iraqi colaborators and exiles...do we leave them behind? A plan has to be made for their safety or exile. And I haven't counted the thousands of "contractors" who, if I had my druthers, I'd say they fend for themselves, but they are Americans and their safe withdrawl has to be accomplished as well. We're talking about several hundred thousand people here. How do these people leave? Who protects them? Or do we just quit and let them sort it out for themselves? This is a question that needs to be asked.

Step one is getting a timetable...a plan that shows our intention of leaving and then to get the cooperation of the various militias to enable us to exit in one piece. And who do we turn things over to? Maybe we can prevail on the Arab League to assist in this process (something I once advocated in the earlier days of this invasion), but nothing will be said or done while booosh is still in power. Whomever is elected will have to rebuild relationships destroyed by the boooshies...and while I expect any Democrat will be viewed favorably abroad, mending fences will come at some kind of price.

Sadly, the last people who will have a say in this sorrid war are the Iraqi people. They're not gonna get that "shiny Democracy on a hill" and whomever fills the void is gonna do it on the bodies of thousands. The more I think of this the angrier it makes me...and strengthens my desire to hope there's a war crimes tribunal...where those responsible for this tragedy are finally held accountable. It'll never happen in the United States.

Cheers...

[xiamiam]

36. how many Americans does it take to screw in a lightbulb?.there has got to be at least 100 timetables

by now..withdrawal is not a new idea...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. This is what needs to happen:

1. U.S. troops out as soon as logistically possible

2. Bush and Cheney impeached and removed from office

3. Bush, Cheney, Rice, and the whole PNAC crew sent to the Hague for war crimes trials.

This is the only way we can regain our moral standing in the world.

[autorank]

27. That's the formula. Let the people decide.

And for a few years, when asked, "If President Bush mislead about weapons of mass destruction, should he be impeached..." the answer on the MSNBC polls was consistently 85-15%... The networks lacked the honesty to do a more scientific poll but those make the point. When we get the real truth about what happened there, I'll bet that there's a demand for just this set of actions.

[xiamiam]

32. here here...dont forget to include all the war proifiteers...forced to give us our money back

Blackwater has made 1 BILLION during this robbery..called the war on terror..

[AtomicKitten]

20. K&R: We need to get the hell out of Dodge.

Staying is insanity. Leaving permanent bases and an embassy squatting in a sovereign nation is a recipe for further inciting of unrest and resentment. Instead of measuring their testicles, our candidates should be proposing the way out of the darkness. Feh.

The remedy:

[Patsy Stone]

21. Out!

Get out. Get out now.

[autorank]

23. And promoting self determination gets us out.

That's the beauty of just asking and giving them a means to answer. Right now, the Iraqi government's (run by a Shia) main tangible accomplishment is - ethnic cleansing in Baghdad; 200,000 fewer Sunnis in the capitol. What a commentary. Was Petraeus even asked about that?

This thread is clearly superior to any dialog at a presidential debate on Iraq. And the various suggestions are much more to the point, all of them.

[Disturbed]

24. The will of the Iraqi & American people.

It seems that the will of both are not relevant.

Both Govt.s do what they wish to do, irregardless.

[autorank]

25. It's becomming obvious to the majority that's the case.

I think that the real lesson here is, we are nothing to them.

It really is about "us" and "them." The American people have come to the
conclusion that this war stinks. We did it without MSM, unlike Viet Nam when
there was a no bull shit press. We did it without political leaders providing a
coherent argument. We did it largely on the internet, small town newspapers,
which have been great on a number of issues, and and talking "amongst ourselves."

Now it's time to put the question to all these in charge, "Why not ask the Iraqis
if we should leave?"

[Senator]

29. Only Impeachment Can End The War(s) Even A Day Sooner

Time to stop being "Anti-War" and start being "Pro-Impeachment."

No, you can't ride two horses with the same behind.

==

[autorank]

31. Impeachment should have occurred right after the oath in 2004 -

I would love to have just one person ask Bush and the Republican candidates this question,

"As far as staying there, shouldn't we ask the Iraqi people directly - do you want us here.?"

Then the same for ours.

The supporters of the war party refused to engage in real debate and their forces are legion.

They drop entire sections of the argument.

Intellectual dishonesty is the constant companion to all of the crimes associated with this administration.

[Senator]

42. Impeachment Would Still Save Lives Even If Done In Jan. 2009

There is no other way to "make an act of contrition" for what has wrought thus far.

The only way out of the (military, political, diplomatic, & moral) quagmire of Iraq is backwards, slowly with assistance from others nearby -- being brutally honest about how the predicament came about.

Failure to impeach simply drags more victims into the muck and forces those who might offer help to keep backing away (sadly, I must include myself among them).

==

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

33. Of course, the Iraqis should choose the destiny of THEIR country. nt

[xiamiam]

34. i would like to know exactly what the logistics are...pulling out the troops...certainly some

brilliant military strategists and masters of diplomacy (which most probably would entail more money being handed to various groups) could figure out how to do that...and then what?

what are the other logistics...?...what secret logistics could possibly make it impossible to remove the troops...would it be the collapse of the dollar?..because if that is the case, 6 more years of this robbery taking place would also do that?...is it because of Israel?...is it because we wnat to create stability in that area?...and thats a joke?...what are the logistics of forcing democracy down the throats of a country which we are illegally occupying and killing hundreds of thousands of their citizens>>>...just tell me what those candidates have been told about WHY we cant pull every single one of our troops out of Iraq?....we could just print more money and give it to them...and then send plane fulls of pallets of cast to Iraq so that it could be unaccounted for..along with the rest of the other missing billions....just tell me wtf are the logistics and we can figure out how to do it...screw this bullcrap..

Bush said he has seen the data and when the new president sees the data they will have to act accordingly or something to that effect...what data...what is the big secret that the chimp in chief can figure out....

I'm sick of this cloak and dagger nonsense..

[H2O Man]

35. I do not believe

that self-rule is possible in Iraq, so long as the US has the massive military/para-military forces there. Those force will be there so long as the Cheney plan continues to be US policy. It will not matter if a democrat is elected in '08, or if the democrats gain more seats in both houses of congress, if they do not reject the Cheney policy.

The most immediate need is to impeach VP Cheney. Every day that congress does not move in that direction, the Cheney policy becomes more entrenched. I need not argue that point -- the proof is in the pudding, as we have seen since January of this year, when democrats took control of both the House and Senate.

General Wesley Clark is correct in saying the US must negotiate with Iran, and that Iran is going to be extremely influential in the future of Iraq. The Cheney/PNAC plan to keep them being a key player in the Middle East is delusional.

As US troops leave, UN troops could be an option as "peace keepers" on a limited, short-term basis.

[FogerRox]

43. Scratch that, what about coffee in the AM ?

[FogerRox]

39. Call me later, I should be in DC by 8pm... er ah.... around that time...

[Kurovski]

40. Kick. (nt)

[truedelphi]

41. I understand that the Iraqis want us out. I think most thoughtful

Compassionate Americans want our troops home.

But when you look at the big picture of Iraq - here's what you have

1) over 1.1 million people dead - in a nation of twenty million.
2) 3 million people that are refugees - they live outside their own home either internally in Iraq somewhere (for instance - Fallujah and Ramadi citizens who fled those two cities due to heavy military action there and then there also are expatriated Iraqi refugees who are now living in Jordan, Syria or wherever.

3) The loss of the infra-structure - communication system not intact, electricity, water and other utilities non-existent or sparsely existent. Medical equipment and pharmaceuticals very limited if not non existent.
4) Return of diseases that a civilized country like Iraq never expected including cholera
5) See 1 and 2 above - since people have been killed wounded or have fled - there are not the people left for the most part that normally would re-build a society. The doctors, nurses, engineers, accountants, teachers, equipment repair people, mechanics, computer experts, etc have, if still living, fled the country.

We know from history that Europe, in very bad shape in some places after May 1945, owed much of its recovery to the Marshall plan.

Beyond the above set of problems, I also don't know what legalisms exist - the Iraqis have a new government that is beholden to corporate American interests. This agreement, since seen by our Thugs in Office as contractually valid presents a whole slew of obstacles. It dis-entitles the Iraqis from gaining much profit from the oil beneath their land. It establishes that American companies such as Motorola have full sway in re-establishing the communications industry (I mention Motorola because I remember it being listed by SF CHronicle as being awarded the communications contracts) But every industry and infra-structure requirement for a return to civilization involves a contractual agreement with the Iraqi government and some AMERICAN corporate entity, such as Motorola (I just don't remember the specifics of which American corporate entity took which piece of the pie but that April 2003 article did discuss those).

And very upsetting to those of us who understand the situation with GMO's - it forbids the planting of any crop unless it is a genetically modified organism. (Except for those crops that we have not yet patented - which makes me always want to beat my chest and pull out my hair when I read reports that our troops took out another stand of date trees because the date trees supposedly offered a hididng place for insurgent. (Actually what the date trees offer is a way for Iraqis to be sustainable - the date trees are not GMO yet - and so a farmer with dates could continue avoid tithing his income to Monsanto Novartis et al.)

These problems will not go away by our leaving. Perhaps the Iraqis will need the UN or some other entity that they trust (if those people have any trust left - I certainly wouldn't if I was Iraqi)
to offer the aid that will begin the restoration of a decent life in Iraq.

OF course, all of this discussion is sadly rather superfluous, because the Corporate Oligarchy that is so clearly our method of established government is nOT GONNA let go of Iraq until 2013 - if even then.

[Kurovski]

44. Kick. (nt)

[Major Hogwash]

45. They were gutless for not guaranteeing they would pull our troops out of Iraq by 2013.

Gutless fucks!

Do you think any Republican would have a problem making a campaign promise that he couldn't keep during a campaign?

These gutless fucks don't say what they mean, they say what they think you want to hear!

They couldn't guarantee to get our troops out of Iraq in the next 4 years!?!
Then what the fuck are they running for!?

Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!
Their fuckin' word means nothing to the dead!