I find the language of reverence that swaddles the military distressing

[cali]

It's almost an unwritten law that no politician can reference the military without using quasi religious hero worship language. Our country is far too militaristic and such language does nothing but reinforce that.

They're not all brave. They're not all honorable. They're not all heroes.

They're just people who joined up for various reasons, being used by an immoral and power crazed administration.

This is not a knock on members of the military. It's like any other population; some are brave. Some aren't. A few are heroes. A few are knaves.

They're just people mostly young, being used as an instrument of death and destruction.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. the new mantra: Thank you for your service.

Peter Pace - thank you for your service, you bigoted homophobe.
John Boyton - thank you for your service, you evil, demented, deluded, religious-based liar
Air Force Academy staff - thank you for your service, you brain-washing, sectarian POS who demand that innocent young minds get the proper dose of your religious beliefs.

[backscatter712]

36. You forgot one.

David Petraeus - thank you for your service, you sycophantic worm.

[Massasauga]

47. And to the 3700+ who have died in Iraq? What do you say to them?

[cali]

56. That's simple for me.

I say to their families, I'm so terribly sorry for your great loss. To the soldiers who died, I say nothing; they're dead, remember. To bushco i say fuck you for spilling blood for no good reason.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

79. what you said, sweeter and shorter than I.

bravo

[ChairmanAgnostic]

77. since there is no life after death, or if there is

what we say here and now has no impact on those gone souls, anything we say is really nothing more than a psychological effort to protect our hurt, to contain our anger, and to find explanations for an incredibly unnecessary and painful waste of life.

So, I say we say nothing.

Does anyone really think that telling a young widow with a two yr old fatherless child that the love of her life died for something honorable, knowing what we know about Downing Street, Bush's faux pas in Spain, and the statements he and Cheney made before 9/11, will serve any purpose? Those are empty words, and empty words are worse than saying nothing. Is a "lie" like that intended to do anything good? When she probably knows that it is a lie as well? We thank them for their sacrifice? THANKS FOR LOSING YOUR LOVED ONE IN A POINTLESS, DANGEROUS OCCUPATION?

TO those who have died, we remain quiet. To their loved ones, we offer our love and support. To those who sent them to their early demise, we take note of how Jews around the world reacted to the Holocaust and follow their lead. "NEVER AGAIN." Never again trust a neocon in any position of power. Never again allow neocons to teach and destroy the rational thinking of impressionable college students. Never again allow American troops get involved in an invasion and occupation of a country that did us no harm. Never again allow a skewed foreign policy ignore the suffering of Palestinians, or others suffering under their own occupation.

[TankLV]

164. That too. I like your response/thoughts...

[FiveGoodMen]

128. Sorry we didn't keep you out of this fake fucking war!

[TankLV]

163. To their familys I'd say: They died for a LIE. Their deaths were a WASTE.

and don't EVER forget who's LIES sent them to their wasted deaths...

[youngharry]

190. david Petreaus

No, ass-kissing chickenshit.

[nvme]

192. Re petraeus or Betray us

wasn't the quote "asskissinglittlechickenshit"

[dflprincess]

151. My friend's dad, a WWII vet, says he's going to smack the next person he hears say that

He figures at 86 he can get by with doing that because he'll just be written off as senile, besides he's a veteran how can anyone complain if he slaps them?

[thereismore]

2. fascist countries revere the military. nt

[ThomCat]

76. Yes, and we're clearly moving more towards fascism.

We've become a nation of corporations, by corporations, for corporations. And our military exists to protect them, not us.

[Hydra]

100. Sad to see

but perfectly put.

[roguevalley]

166. this style of discussion was started by men and women who had

not only no military experience of their own, but those who had shirked their duty when it was their turn. no wonder they are all ga-ga and jock-sniffy about this. they are turned on and they are cynical about using a tool to get their way.

[Deep13]

3. yup. very true. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

4. It is a key element of fascism.

Your concern is well founded.

[cali]

5. It is indeed, and the language of the left

including language here at DU, does nothing but reinforce that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

6. And it's been a long-standing element of U.S. culture since World War I

There was no reason for the U.S. to get involved in World War I, so the propaganda mills had to come up with a myth of the brave troops saving democracy.

That meme has stuck. Ever since then, every military action, no matter how stupid and selfish, has been glorified as "serving your country." :puke:

[cali]

8. Oh, I think it goes far further back than that

The Spanish American War comes to mind.

I'm not knocking rank and file members of the military, just saying that the business of catgorizing them all as heroes or angels or the best of the best, is actually a diservice as well as incorrect.

[Exultant Democracy]

60. At least as far back as the Mexican-American War, Polk basically said 'support our troops

and stop giving aid and comfort to the enemy.' to the opposition.

[followthemoney]

182. Violence and the Sacred, Rene Girard

The foundation of a culture is in a sacrificial act of sacred violence. This connection goes back thousands of years. From this comes Military = Sacred.

We live with the danger of 21st century technology combined with the 4th century Manichean binary mind of good and evil.

[donsu]

90. and camouflage/military styles have crept into fashion

it is disgusting

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. They were all the rage during the Reagan era

I had some friends who had baby boys during those years, and when I went to buy them gifts, it was disgusting to see that most of the clothing for little boys had either military or sports themes. It took a lot of searching to find, say, just a plain pair of overalls with a matching shirt, no product logos, no sports team logos, no military air.

[LibertyLover]

114. And now for girls too

My five year old daughter needed a backpack for kindergarten - it was actually required - and when my husband and I went to get her one about all they had were pink and gray camo ones, regular camo ones, sports teams ones, Disney Princesses ones and Bratz ones, all of which I refused to buy. We finally found a plain colored backpack, but it took a lot of looking in the store and the plain ones were not with the 'back to school' paraphernalia. Same with clothing - there was a lot of faux pink and gray camo material making up clothing in the girls department. Ugh.

[eagler]

7. As a group they are human and imperfect, beyond that your treading on

sacred ground.

[cali]

9. And what's wrong with that?

And I prefer to think of it as puncturing a myth.

[eagler]

10. You're certainly entitled to your opinion.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. "Sacred cows make the best hamburger" - Mark Twain

The military is one of our most sacred of cows.

USMC 1961-1965

[cali]

81. LOL

thanks for that, and thanks for your trenchant comments on this thread.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

84. Thanks to you for the OP. A much needed skewering of a sacred cow.

[Donnachaidh]

110. and THAT term *sacred ground* is exactly what is being discussed here

Have you even read the posts?

[LanternWaste]

118. Who defines it as sacred ground?

Who defines it as sacred ground?

I've read quite a few oral histories of WWII (The Good War by Terkel and Citizen Soldiers by Ambrose might be a good starting point) and of all the interviews, there was one general consensus-- some were heroes, some were cowards. Some did their duty while other goldbricked. Some fought, other ran.

And while I respect (to a point) any person who fights in a war (regardless of nationality), I fail to see why I should perceive them as sacred. So, tell me-- why is criticism of the armed forces (or even a particular solider) treading on sacred ground? Why is one group of people above reproach?

[dickbearton]

152. Eagler, like to many Americans, you sound like a stooge to the military industrial complex.

[Zywiec]

11. Here's another thread on the same topic

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1783574

We get it already. We know how some feel about the military here. The majority of the threads are slams, but when someone wants to support the troops with a thread, it's immediately met with one like this to negate it.

[cali]

12. My OP is NOT a slam

and it addresses the larger issue of how such language reinforces war and a militaristic society.

[Bluebear]

13. I don't agree that "the majority of the threads are slams" in the LEAST!

The overwhelming majority of threads wants our military home, safe and alive.

If one were interested in "slamming" them, one wouldn't care if they were being shot up. Or if their families are without their father/mother etc:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1781803

And when one of their own like Pace comes along spouting their Biblical hate speak, they SHOULD be slammed.

[Klukie]

20. My op was not a slam either....

If you are going to reference it, please do so appropriately.

[Zandor]

65. You nailed it

Quite sad that seeing troops acknowledged for their service compels some to negate it.

[cali]

86. Because it's about far more than

that. It's part of the militarization of our society.

[dickbearton]

162. Zandor, there you go again, you are nailed...

You are quite sad, acknowledged for their service to a traitor
and war criminal, Bush. They took an oath to the constitution,
to the supreme law of the land, not to the crooks in the
office of the presidency and the vice-presidency. Yes, it is
sad, you can not seem to acknowledge the truth to yourself
much less to anyone else.

[LanternWaste]

120. I'm not sure...

I'm not sure you understand (at least in this case) the difference between valid criticism and a "slam". However, as I might simply be wrong, would you please edify me (with both relevance and precision) as to how the OP is indeed a "slam" against the military?

[dickbearton]

158. Zywiec, no you don't get it, this is not a slam, it is a fact...

The military takes an oath to uphold the supreme law of the
land, not to the traitors and the war criminals temporarily in
the office of the presidency and vice-presidency.  

[TankLV]

165. I'm sorry you think that way.

it is so sad...

You obviously don't understand the OP at all...

[uppityperson]

175. No, you obviously don't get what the post here is about.

It is about seeing "the troops", the military as individuals. Why prejudge any group? Why assume all people in any 1 group (color, sex, creed, job) are that same? Why worship, not be able to criticize any entire group? See them as individuals.

[dickbearton]

183. Uppityperson, pull your head out...

They are all the same, in the one, most important aspect; they
took an oath to the constitution. Either you were not in the
military or you do not take your oath seriously. The whole
idea of the military is to form a group. That is what is so
dangerous; if a criminal like Bush is in charge.

[uppityperson]

184. So there are no individuals in the military? No individual actions?

Wow.

ps.Insults are the refuge of those without good arguments.

[dickbearton]

187. Each individual takes an oath and that is a group action, that forms a group...

Wow,that's a good one. You can not seem to understand group
behavior. As I said, the military is all about group behavior,
the military robot. As for what you perceive as an insult, it
can be a statement that reflects the truth; and as for
Uppityperson, you took the name and it seems to fit. Like I
said, individuals form a group for good or bad; and so what
argument forms your refuge. I hope it's not tired, trite post
script statements that reveal a sort of self condemnation. 

[uppityperson]

211. You seem to not understand that within a group there are individuals

Of course the military is about group behavior, the military robot as you put it. Of course it is. It is intended to get all individuals to act as cogs in the machine, working together, being uniform. Of course. What I am talking about though is that even beyond military training, even beyond military oath, they still are individuals, with some acting more individually than others.

You seem not to understand who is being condemned either, or who is engaged in trite statements. Oh well. So long as we are working to get things improved, or at least slow the deterioration, on we go.

[Klukie]

14. I have thought the same thing....

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Klukie/2

[cali]

16. But even here

if you stray from the party line of heroes,angels and best of the best, many people find it offensive.

[qnr]

188. While I wholeheartedly agree with your OP, I think that the fact that people here find

it offensive just illustrates your point. People are individuals, period.

[gratuitous]

15. Reverence is a good word for it

The national religion of the United States has nothing to do with Christianity. We surely don't pray for those who persecute us, or turn the other cheek when slapped. We don't lend without expecting repayment, right down to the last penny, and that whole do unto others dictum is blithely brushed aside whenever it's convenient, and particularly when it's inconvenient.

No, our national religion is a mystical belief in the power of violence to redeem any situation, and we reserve our greatest awe and fear for the ultimate practitioners of redemptive violence, our military. Every soldier that dies is feted as a "fallen hero," and every recruit is honored and woe betide anyone who points out that its shortcomings. Well, anyone who isn't an accredited member of the Club, like Rush Limbaugh, who is free to name soldiers as phonies at whim.

[cali]

18. Great post.

Thanks for that.

[OwnedByFerrets]

19. Very nicely put...nt

[GoneOffShore]

167. Excellent post

Thanks for that.

[oscarmitre]

17. For us non-Americans

it's very strange. It's like a sort of homage. Very militaristic and faintly ridiculous, as if someone who's doing a job (no matter how difficult) is to be particularly praised. I'm sure instead of this sort of bullshit praise they'd much prefer a trebling in pay.

[cali]

22. That and not be using like a rag

to mop up oil.

[Donnachaidh]

111. the trebling of pay comes when they leave the military and join Blackwater

To go back to Baghdad and play armed bodyguard for visiting dignitaries.

[IsItJustMe]

197. I am an American and I have always found it very strange. I always put it down as hero worship with

a hint of possible tradition. For the longest time I thought I was alone in my thinking, not quit being able to define or articulate what it was that bothered me about this social arrangement we have here in this country regarding our military.

[cgrindley]

21. Me too. Way more honorable to NOT serve unless it's a real war (nt)

[cali]

24. Well, I'm not knocking those who are in the military

and god knows there are enough not honorable war hawks not serving.

[DavidDvorkin]

23. I agree. The reverence also betrays our own history.

In the early days, Americans were known for their hostility to the military.

[T Wolf]

26. We must not say anything negative about the military for fear that the

pukes will use it against us. Except that they push that meme whether an actual statement was made or not. So, why not state the truth?

And in contrast to another thread here, I ask these questions - Do not the individuals who choose to participate in this criminal (war) action bear some responsibility? Is the "just following orders" excuse a permanent pass for anything done while in uniform?

Yeah, most are young and joined up for various reasons. But if a group you joined, maybe innocently or naively, was involved in murder, rape, etc., would you stick with them?

[treestar]

155. So true! The right attempts to use them to bolster their violent

fantasies, and to leave them immune from criticism, so they can use them to prop their sick fantasies.

[IsItJustMe]

199. Yes, they do have to bear some responsibility, as each one of us has a conscience.

[bigtree]

27. I think that the language is just a courtesy to those who are heroic and brave

If you have some fault with some individual, then it's fine to criticize them. But I believe the majority of our service folks serve with honor.

Look at the proportion of Americans who have been MADE to sacrifice for Bush's foreign policy and our failure to restrain him. It's a proud few who are tasked with that, by law and the terms of their commitment to our nation's defense. We should never neglect to acknowledge that.

[cali]

30. As I said, they're just people who joined

for varying reasons, not necessarily, as you put it, to defend the country, and it's the language that you employ in your post, such as "proud few" that I find bolsters the endemic militarism in this nation.

[H2O Man]

32. Interesting.

I think that you are right. I also think the OP is right. It's not the sincere folks who are offensive. It's those who would attempt to make personal gain, either in a campaign or on an internet message board, in a manner similar to wrapping themselves in a flag.

Both you and cali raise valid and important points.

[dickbearton]

174. Bigtree, you are confused...

We took an oath to the constitution, not to the crooks in the
White House. To many do not serve with honor, let us hope they
only service in ignorance to the man and not the law. It is
the proud few, who serve the supreme law of the land and not
the traitor and war criminal Bush.

[NNN0LHI]

28. rec n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. There have been threads here that have advocated a military coup.

The adulation of the military has reached the point that some look upon it in almost messianic terms.

[dickbearton]

181. I guess you can argue Christofascist are messianic about the military...

but they are traitors. Quite often, not always, a nation's
army will determine it's form of government. As for military
coup, pro or con, fascism or return to democracy, history
shows it is not uncommon. Yes, there is to much adulation of
the military. It is to be expected in an arsenal economy. To
many Americans support the military industrial complex.

[supernova]

31. I agree w/ you cali

And it goes beyond quasi church talk for the troops. It's also a kind of anything military is automatically better than civilian (and by extension feminine) attitude.

I've worked in corporate america for 20 years and am always put off by the fact that business borrows the language and management techniques of the military: the boss is always right, top-down decision-making, "destroy" the competition, preferential treatment in hiring for ex-military.

edit: This isn't a slap at the troops nor people who have served in general. Being a soldier is, most of the time, a good profession. But damn, we need to get away from the idea that people who serve, just because they serve, somehow automatically belong on a pedestal.

[cali]

35. Now that's an interesting post.

Your point that anything military is finer and better than anything civilian and that it's a hyper masculine thing, is right on. A young person joining the military is deserving of all the reverential words and catch phrases, but a young person joining an NGO or the Peace Corps; *shrug*.

[supernova]

43. Yes, it's disturbing

I've seen it.

Young person signs up for the Peace Corp or maybe missionary/social work somewhere and the attitude is almost always "so, when you come back in three years what's going to be your REAL JOB?"

[riverdeep]

Kennedy's quote:

"War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."

The day is still distant, yet.

[Klukie]

119. What a great quote..

Thanks for that.

[Mr. Ected]

33. "Support the Troops" Was Never Meant to Mean "Support the Troops"

Let's face it, the right-wingers use those words to mean: "Support Bush's Military Position".

It was never about the men and women on the ground. Never.

[chill_wind]

144. Very true. Bush's NeoCon rump pentagon is not waging this war for "my freedoms."

They are waging this obscene war for The Billionaires for Bush.

[dickbearton]

185. Exactly, K&R.

[IsItJustMe]

201. "Support the Troops" for me, as it now being used now, has become a very shallow, vague, meaningless

propaganda term used by the Bush right wing war machine to propagate this war with Iraq and squash dissent. For the most part, I think people have been blind to the truth and this meme has been quit effective.

If I support the troops, deos it mean that I support the mission that they are on. For some reason, this whole concept gives me problems.

[MLFerrell]

34. As the brother of a soldier, I can only say that I agree 100%.

K&R

[cali]

37. Thank you so much.

I actually thought of you as I wrote this, hoping I wouldn't give offence to you or anyone else who has family in the military or is a military member themselves.

[Malikshah]

126. As a son of a retired career office and brother of three career soldiers

I agree.

I'm an army brat-- grew up around other army brats most of my life. Lived on and off bases, moving year to year, 18-month to 18-month.

Learned the rules of living on base-- if you find something neat, don't pick it up--it could explode. (Yes it has happened)

We never felt put upon or persecuted by non-military beyond being the "new kids in town" We never got preferential treatment nor were raised to expect it.

We were not raised in a Rambo environment and looked down upon those around us who championed that mentality.

My father and brother are VFW and do not discuss it, as anything requiring homage or reverential treatment.

We looked down upon those that did-- the Army was a job, like dry-cleaning, or anything else.

No, I didn't salute my Dad nor had to go through weekly inspections, and we definitely didn't drive a tank to school. We just who we were -- and tried to keep a low profile.

And we were not unique in that regard-- enlisted/officers etc. on the bases were pretty much of the same mentality.

This sort of worship is anathema to many in the military (at least the military I grew up in)

Why? Because those in the military knew the score. The words of praise were just that. Words. The pay was crap, the benefits were crap, the stress was huge. You were raised in an environment in which you had no real control over your life. You could move at the drop of hat or have your parent be on an UAT (Unaccompanied Tour) for months on end or even a year. You just dealt with it and rolled with the punches. You didn't necessarily take pride in being career as it was a job.

You did want to be respected for a job well done--but so does everyone else.

Those who complained about "lack of respect" were viewed like those who "wished to be cool"-- if you have to try, you aren't cool. And if you call for respect, you often don't deserve it.



BTW-- This situation is similar to the reverence paid to the US Flag and Patriotism. My non-US friends are often taken aback by the ubiquity of Old Glory, the Pledge of Allegiance, and the Star Spangled Banner at public events.

Perspective is key here. We look like ultra nationalists to the many in the world. Some view it as quaint, while others with trepidation.

Just my 2 cents.

By the way-- Army brats are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much cooler than Squiddies. :)

[IsItJustMe]

202. Thanks for your perspective. I enjoyed it.

[Captain Hilts]

38. It's conservative guilt for not serving. nt

[Orsino]

59. And not just conservative.

There is a profound disconnect between military service and full citizenship, as there is with us civilian pukes. When labor becomes a tool for capitalist conquest, and laborers mere convenient photo-ops, it's not possible to hide the ruling class' contempt for those who get their hands dirty. Much of the middle class looks down on the men and women in uniform, too. These are all danger signs.

Congress doesn't look like our military, and doesn't much resemble the rest of us workers, either. They are not of us.

[Captain Hilts]

61. I grew up in military housing and in military ghettos. nt

[YOY]

39. Not everyone who joins the Peace Corps has the good of humanity in mind or even American diplomacy.

Get Taverner or any other RPCV here. They'll agree wholeheartedly. Not all PCVs are "noble souls".

I've seen in the Peace Corps...

...post-undergrads with no experience who expect a two-year spring break.

...rich kids "doing their part" with the peasants and taking every weekend to go to resort areas with daddy's money.

...alchoholics who forget that they are representing their country on a grassroots level.

...ethnocentric idiots who refuse to learn the local language.

....ultra idealists who think they'll completely fix the host country with "positive American thinking!"

...escape artists who want to get away from America and keep away once they've settled down.

Of course to Neocons and the idiots who vote for them we're a bunch of hippies. I had one tell me that...then I asked him what he knew about the Peace Corps. Absolutely fucking nothing...if ignorance is bliss I'm sure he was on cloud 9.

As with any group you get bad apples. Same of the military. The problem is that the moment you say something like "there are some assholes there too" or "they're not all heroes" somebody who didn't realize just how stupid and fake films like "Top Gun" or "Navy Seals" are jumps on your ass. Those movies have about as much in common with reality as "Volunteers" or "Shallow Hal" do for the Peace Corps.

[mvccd1000]

40. You're absolutely right, cali - I've pointed this out on other boards and...

... been met with scorn, but during my six years in the Navy I met some great people, some worthless people, and a lot of people in between those two extremes.

One relatively common denominator among most (but certainly not all) military people I've known both in the Navy and as a civilian in Iraq is the fact that - regardless of whether you joined for college money, to "kill towel-heads", or for some reason in between - most soldiers, sailor, marines, and airmen would give up their life to save a buddy, or even a civilian, if the situation warranted.

That may not make one more patriotic than anyone else, but it is rather altruistic. Could that be where some of the "hero-worship" comes from?

[Massasauga]

78. Nicely stated.

[dickbearton]

193. No, hero worship comes from those with mental problems...

Right-wingers that have a sort of rotting of the brain. It is often the unfortunate result of inbreeding.

[BlackVelvet04]

41. I agree.....

and I think it's done to appeal to young people who get stars in their eyes about becoming heroes. We don't talk about the realities of war....the kids find out the hard way.

[Ezlivin]

42. I recommend "The New American Militarism" by Andrew Bacevich

In his book Bacevich talks about how to a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail (essentially).

A very good book by a conservative who can see past all the jingoistic bullshit.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YOY]

46. My God, will you go away? You've made an ass of yourself enough at DU.

and it's spelled "Intelligent".

Irony much?

[Zandor]

50. I'd ask you to leave

but I believe DU is a big enough tent.

[cali]

48. Of course I didn't say that they were too young and dumb

to realize anything.

Would you deny that the military is being used in Iraq for imperial purposes by an immoral and war mongering admin?

Do you really think that those in the military are "the best of the best"?

[Zandor]

55. They are special

in that they have chosen to serve their country. Imperfect, but worthy of our gratitude and honor. Your post writes them off as 'just like anyone else'.

[BlackVelvet04]

64. They are just like anyone else....

many who have reasons for joining the military that have nothing to do with serving the country.

[alarimer]

70. Bullshit

They are not fucking special. Most of them are poor idiots who can't afford college and buy into all the LIES the military recruiters told them (and they lie, lie,lie all the damn time). I am not grateful- they are not "defending my freedom" in Iraq or whatever other countries we occupy these days. I think "poor saps, you died for NOTHING, what a waste of a life".

[Zandor]

91. "Most of them are poor idiots"

Do tell.

[cali]

75. That's because the ARE just like anyone else

glad you got the point.

[Evoman]

124. Serving your country....

is teaching our children.

is doing medical research.

is working in soup kitchens.

is working in your community.

is showing up for jury duty.

is protesting when your leaders do something wrong.

is protecting the weak from the strong, and not becoming the bully.

IT IS NOT going to other countries, killing their people, and raping their country so that you can have some food in your belly and some money in your bank account.


On edit: Moreover, why don't we ever go out and thank teachers "for their service" or show gratitude towards them. Getting paid shit, and dealing with asshole parents, to make sure our children learn at the most crucial time of their lives....thats what I call serving your country.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

134. Your post inspired me to do a poll

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1934358

[Bluebear]

49. "intellegent"

:silly:

[Zandor]

52. "contry"

Since the grammar police are out today.

[Bluebear]

53. Whatever that means.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

54. Have you ever been in a barracks?

At least, not when I was in the United States Marine Crotch (aka "The Suck"). Most of us were adolescents who joined for any number of reasons.

Not once, in 4 years, did I ever hear anyone cite "service to country" or "patriotism" or "fighting for democracy" as reasons that they joined.

But, of course, we were mere peasants and those designated to kill and/or die at the behest of politicians and generals.

[Zandor]

58. I'd like Cali to answer that

I have not been there.

But she is the one running down the military.

[cali]

66. That's what's known as a LIE

Recognizing that the military is comprised of regular people, is absolutely not running down military personnel. Hero worship for each and every soldier is UNHEALTY.

No, I've never been in the military. But please note there are plenty of people on this thread who have been, as well as family members, who endorse what I said in my OP.

As for the brass, I have plenty of choice words for many of them- beginning with that bushdog, Petraeus.

[Zandor]

69. Do you honor their service?

Do you feel gratitude toward them?

[cali]

73. No. not as a single entity.

What the fuck does that even mean, 'honor their service'? Seriously.

And I don't feel any gratitude over what's been done in Iraq, but nor do I hold them culpable for that fuck-up, unless they've committed actual crimes.

[Zandor]

85. "What the fuck does that even mean, 'honor their service'?"

Wow.

[cali]

88. Well, what does it mean. Stow the overblown outrage for

a nano-second and try answering. What do you mean by honoring their service? Mouthing platititudes. I know the way in which I "honor their service": By supporting good care for those maimed, and rotations that don't send soldiers back to a war zone over and over again. But of course, your meaningless babble about heroes and bravery and honor, are just so much more meaningful. Not.

[Zandor]

92. "meaningless babble about heroes and bravery and honor"

You might want to stop digging.

[cali]

94. you can't even answer a question honestly

and I'm not digging a hole. That would be you. In case you neglected to notice, yours in NOT the majority opinion at DU.

[Zandor]

95. You know what honor is

But you would rather play semantics than get nailed down.

I honor their service. I feel gratitude. I am proud of them.

You can feel as you like.

[cali]

99. You're full or right wing talking points

and evasive as hell.

[Zandor]

103. Nope

I laid it out. You want to quibble about the meaning of words.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

102. You want to throw love of mom, apple pie, and "The American way" in too?

And, don't forget "God Bless America".

[LanternWaste]

122. Specifically how do you honor their service?

Specifically how do you honor their service?

[Zywiec]

123. One way is holidays such as Memorial and Veteran's Day n/t

[LanternWaste]

127. I'm asking

I'm asking how you specifically honor them-- so far the answers are too vague to be of much significance... and holidays where simply people sleep in and drink beer hardly qualifies as "honoring them" to me...

[uppityperson]

178. Memorial and Vets Day are Fed holidays. How do you honor their service?

Pointing out a couple Fed holidays doesn't do it. What do you do? Do you do something special on those days to honor them?

[The Wielding Truth]

195. Love them and hope they come home whole then take care of

them when they return. That's honor.

They were duped somewhere into thinking that there service would be something they could do to give back to the home they imagined they must protect.

We all need to feel worthy and full of worth. They and we are being used to line the pockets of the really rich and powerful who justify it to themselves by convincing themselves that it is their contribution to lead us or save us from the fear they have conjured.

Bad leadership can sure screw things up! These kids and reserves who join the services aren't bad they are mostly our families and they are caught in this mess. Like an abusive marriage or bad job that you can't leave because your life is tangled around it.

Again it's us who need to change the game and make Peace work.

[uppityperson]

177. How do you honor their service?

I know what "honor" means to me, but that doesn't tell me, how do YOU honor their service? Seriously. How? I would like to know, perhaps can clear up some things and make communicating with you easier.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

89. Well? What does "honor their service" mean?

Throw up another wall full of dead people's names for the politicians to stand in front of and get all weepy while urging the populace to another catastrophe to "protect our vital national interests"?

So, do tell us, what "honor their service" means.

[SidDithers]

93. Spouting platitudes on a message board?...

Is that honouring their service?

Sid

[JackRiddler]

154. No. I feel sorry for them...

not too much, you understand, because they're just stiffs like the rest of the working class. But they have been suckered, brainwashed or fooled into the task of imperial murder, and it's really too bad.

I hereby honor the members of the military who stopped the carnage in Vietnam by resisting the genocidal orders of their superior officers, and doing what they had to do to end the American invasion of Vietnam.

[uppityperson]

176. What does "honor their service" mean? Seriously.

I don't know what you mean. I would like to know what you mean. How does one "honor their service"? How do you? I'd like to know if I am doing what you ask.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

131. But, you know, you called them mere mortals! Calling GODS mere mortals is an egregious insult! -nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

67. I'll let Cali speak for herself. But, most GI's "run down" the military more than anyone else.

You seem to have the misconception that the average GI is some sort of hero swaddled in a flag, saluting smartly, and just itching to make "the ultimate sacrifice" to please the bosses.

They are, and always have been, cannon-fodder used by the bigshots to kill people.

[LanternWaste]

121. I suppose you must

I suppose you must also think that Doctors who diagnose a disease are "anti-patient".

However, if there is a precise and relevant moral difference between the two, I'd love to hear it...

[motocicleta]

143. Bullshit

She's not running down the military - are you too dense to see that?

[TankLV]

169. It's Zandor - he's happy that the religious aren't executing gays and just tolerating them...

He's a hateful, bigoted poster - read some of his other threads/posts - you'll see what we all mean about him...

pathetic...

[TankLV]

168. You again - NO - YOU'RE the one putting words in Cali's mouth....

she never said any such thing...

[youthere]

71. My husband and I have both served...

and I can tell you that this meme of "they want to serve their country" is tired and inaccurate. Yes, there are those few who enlist out of an overwhelming and consuming sense of patriotism, but I can tell you that the vast VAST majority of those serving today signed up because the military was the best option for them at the time. SOme of them are looking for college money through the GI bill (a bad deal that SOUNDS good at the time-in fact it was why I enlisted). Some come from economically depressed areas, so there are no other jobs. Some find the travel and the "life" experience offered by the military preferable to college life. For others who can't decide what career or degree they want to pursue, they use a military enlistment to buy them time until they do decide. There are some who plan to pursue a career in law enforcement, or aviation or other fields and want to use military service to begin their resumes, and get a basis for the advanced training they will pursue in civilian life. And while the majority of the members serving today have a solid sense of patriotism, patriotism alone is rarely the sole or even the main motivation for enlistment.

[cali]

74. Thank you for adding that n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

132. "what's involved" -- WHAT's involved, exactly? Iraq? -nt

[Massasauga]

45. The reason for that language is because their job asks something just a bit different:

The willingness to die for the cause. It sets them apart.

Yes, some are criminals. We don't honor them.

[cali]

51. I've always noticed

that most young people have no real concept of death. I think it's actually a hard drive thing. I don't necessarily believe that joining the military demonstrates a willingness to die for the cause.

And what is the cause again?

[mvccd1000]

62. I wrote about that in my post #40 above...

Even if he will not give it for "the cause", whatever that happens to be at the time, the fact that a young adult would give his life to protect his co-workers is rather altruistic.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

137. Just like firefighters, rescue workers, and paramedics.

And those don't carry guns.

That rates them higher in my book.

[supernova]

57. To me, the best way to honor military personnel

is to honor their total humanity, all of it: the pain, the fear, the talent, the drive, the fuck ups and the achievements, the geuninely heroic and the authentically cowardly and the ones inbetween all those extremes who just simply survived to tell about it.

And save the myth-making for a time when we didn't have access to accurate information about what war really is, what it really does to people. All people.

[SidDithers]

63. K&R...

good post, cali.

Sid

[SidDithers]

68. "I Support the Troops"...

Canadian comedy show This Hour has 22 Minutes' spoof on supporting the troops.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSUKgFWFGGI

Sid

[porphyrian]

72. As if our trained killers can't take criticism or something...

And, while they may not all be great people, they are all people.

[riverdeep]

80. Now you've gone and done it,

you've introduced complexity into a previously simple equation. Before, it was see uniform-genuflect. Now, I have to take many things into account. You've ruined a good thing.

BTW, in the post number pool, I'm going to guess this goes to 350 or so before it gets shut down.

[supernova]

82. Did'ya notice we've got

dueling threads? :D

[cali]

83. a wry smile is my response to your post.

I'm actually surprised this thread didn't just sink.

[donsu]

87. and military pilots are treated like gods

nt

[Stinky The Clown]

96. The reason can be summed up in two words: Viet Nam

There was a lot of anger directed at the military back then.

There were travesties against the returnees back then.

A lot of people got pissed about that back then.

Those people are now in power.

They don't want what happened back then to happen now. That anger from back then had something to do with the rise of the Republicans. Today's Republicans continue to cash that check. Today's Democrats want nothing but great distances between their reputation from back then and what they are today.

The result of that is the phenomenon you describe.

[cali]

98. Yep. That's an excellent point. That's certainly a lot of it

doesn't make the language anyless disturbing though.

[BlooInBloo]

101. What bugs me also is the large number of vets who think non-vets' opinion doesn't matter.

[Squatch]

104. As a currently-serving active duty soldier, I couldn't

agree more.

While I appreciate people taking the time to thank me for my service:

- I'm not doing this for YOU. I'm doing this for MYSELF...for my own personal and selfish reasons.

- When I'm walking (in uniform) into a gas station to pay, don't stand there and salute me or anything. Maybe just say "hello" as you would any OTHER person.

- Don't try to engage me in political discussions while I'm in uniform. While I think GWB is a batshit crazy lunatic (as do MOST my brothers- and sisters-in-arms), you won't ever hear me disparage (or laud) the office of any elected official.

- No, I've never shot anybody, so stop asking.

- Military service is NOT a prerequisite to critcize or speak out on the conduct of the military. THERE IS NO TEST to be an elected official that requires previous military service. Frankly, I am ABSOLUTELY happy that only a few members of Congress and the Exec branch have served ("When you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail")

[cali]

105. Thank you

for that post. It says it all and much better than my OP.

[Squatch]

112. I'm with you on this.

The "Support the Troops" mantra is horse-shit. Support the troops...by sending them to war???

Here's how you support the troops, assholes:

1) Use the military in armed conflict ONLY when all other options have been tried, re-tried, and tried again.
2) Don't lie to us: We're attacking Iraq for WMDs...Al Queda...Saddam...(insert excuse du jour here)
3) Properly train, man, and EQUIP units you send into harms way.
4) Don't fuck us by getting our hopes up for a redeployment, only to have a 3-month extension crammed up our cornholes 2 days before we head back to CONUS
5) Don't stand on a street corner with a sign saying "Support the troops" supporting our continued presence in Iraq with no clear mission, end state, rules of engagement, or purpose

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

133. HEY ZANDOR! COME HERE AND SHARE YOUR OPINIONS ON WHAT SQUATCH SAID!

(Won't be holding my breath)

[cali]

135. I'll second that. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

136. Crickets. Tumbleweeds. -nt

[BlooInBloo]

138. Still chirping, still tumbling.

[Book Lover]

148. And I third it. (nm)

[motocicleta]

147. Zandor can't handle it

I do not believe he has the cognitive ability to grasp what a blow Squatch's words are to his argument.

So, it's probably good none of us are holding our breath, but that does pretty much end the infantile debate. Night night, Zandor.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

160. Cue Jack Nicholson

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[TankLV]

170. probably busy "tolerating" gay persons - as long as they don't have icky manonman SEX...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

189. Oh, there's material on that subject too? Linky linky? -nt

[TankLV]

209. here ya go!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1911492

[w4rma]

106. If they were used properly, then I would strongly disagree. (nt)

[KharmaTrain]

107. My Pet Peeves: Lapel Flag Pins

Seems like standard issue for every Repugnican. They hide behind the flag while children go without health insurance, the economy and middle class vanish into debt and stand on the wrong side of virtually every other issue. It's as though the Repugnicans have hijacked the flag and that since they waive it, they must be "patriotic" while they sell our country's future and treasure down the road for their own greed and power.

[IsItJustMe]

206. There are several Republican families on the block where I live. They all have big flags waving

in their front yards, they all have yellow Support The
Troop stickers on their cars, and most of them have military aged kids. None of those kids are enlisted.

I find the Republican way of life highly hypocritical.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

108. That's A Hard Question

I was watching Ken Burns' documentary on WW ll and thinking how much it must have "sucked" to be a soldier, walking around all day, defecating in the woods, doing nothing for hours, only to have the boredom punctuated by having somebody shoot at you... That does not seem like fun at all...

I think the respect for the military emanates from the fact that folks in the military do a job that most folks wouldn't want to do, for "all the money in the world" for all the obvious reasons...

[TankLV]

171. What my father told me...

One night during the winter he fell asleep and was in that state - not quite awake - not quite asleep - but he realized how warm and cozy he felt after shivering all night for days at a time during the battle of the buldge or in some other battle.

Then he opened his eyes and finally realized WHY he felt all warm and cozy - because he fell asleep in a puddle at the bottom of his trench and the water froze over with his head sticking above the ice - he was all wet and immersed in water - but it never could get colder than freezing for a change!

[Hydra]

109. They are people being used

And I for one find it disgusting that people play the hero worship game, but are unwilling to see how the administration is paying them bottom dollar to kill people for them.

Someone else said, "They are willing to give their lives to protect us" and therefore are worthy of a little extra. Am I worthy of a little extra, then? I wouldn't hesitate to put my life on the line to save someone, or shoot someone to prevent them from killing other people. Are they somehow worth more, and I less because I didn't sign on the dotted line?

[treestar]

157. People who talk of their being in harm's way or being willing to die

are only looking at one side of it.

They are also equipped and able to KILL, and willing to KILL. To "protect us?" well, really, do we need "protection" from the people they are killing? Only in the fevered right wing neocon mind.

I know the Iraqis have no ability and probably no desire to kill me. That the military is "protecting me" from them is sheer right wing fantasy.

[losthills]

113. I have no respect for our military, whatsoever.

And I say that as veteran.

Militarism is the greatest evil that has ever existed in the world. Military organizations are criminal gangs that prey on the citizens of every country, and ours is no exception...

[KG]

115. i have no use for the military or religion.

alot of fucked-upness of this country, and the world can be traced back to the prominance of these two institutions in our society.

[Zywiec]

116. kick

[Swamp Rat]

117. k&r

[roguevalley]

125. this is blow back from Viet Nam. No one wants to go through that

again. You had to be there.

[Poiuyt]

208. That's what I've always thought too

For a while, it seemed that everyone thought that soldiers returning from Viet Nam were drug addled zombies. Then there was a push to show them respect. All of a sudden at parades, the VN Vets always got the loudest applause. My sister and I would look at each other and say, "Guilt applause." That has morphed into "support our troops," "thank you for your service," "you are all heroes" and other such phrases. But it has gone way overboard.

The OP is absolutely correct.

[Owl]

129. k&r

[puebloknot]

130. I agree. And I'm the daughter of a WWII vet. I am fearful of a military ...

... in thrall to "Christian" influences, and Blackwater, a "military" in its own right, with no accountability to the rule of law.

The politicians should recite that famous poem to themselves every day: "First they came for the trade unionists, but I said nothing because ... "

I'm not a pacifist. Wars are sometimes necessary, but this one is against every striving for truth and right our country has entered into since WWII, and against every impulse for the continuation of democracy that the founders built into the Constitution.

I'm also in favor of remembering that "the Founders" were mere mortals with perhaps uncommon wisdom, and that in our time, we need to not revere the Constitution as if written on tablets of stone, but a living document which can be amended, as needed. Of course, the far right uses that argument with an eye to amending the Constitution in favor of making America a theocracy.

Returning to your thesis, I agree that too many young people get into the military because they're swept away by patriotic fervor which soon fades to black when reality sets in, or they simply have no other choice, and enlist as a way of feeding themselves. Some enlist to pay for college. Alas, you have to be alive to reap the benefits of a college education.

[JuniperLea]

139. They are all brave...

Anyone who signs up for military service knows chances are they could be put in harms way. That's brave.

They aren't all honorable going in, but I'm betting many of them learn to be while there.

The only one on your list I'm seriously opposed to is the overuse of the word "hero". No, they are not all heroes. Heroes go above and beyond the call of duty, they put themselves at great risk for the sake of others, they bravely go where others won't.

[Joe Chi Minh]

140. What a double-edged sword it proves, when uttered by the insincere exploitative

chicken hawk class. A very very perceptive and relevant post.

Journalists and their political masters love to categorise whole professions in that deceitful way. In the UK, apparently, the nurses are angels. Well, angels don't need food and shelter, so it's a handy designation to label them with, when they threaten strike action, albeit attenuated to minimise the suffering of their patients.

Even the 'caring professions' is a clumsy short-hand, since, as in the case of soldiers, recruits will range from angels to psychopaths, pretty much like any other group of human beings. The combination of the personal lustre understandably attaching to their professions, and the often captive status of their patients evidently exerts a powerful attraction to sociopaths of all hues, among the many caring people attracted for all the right reasons.

But I don't wish to divert attention though from you very focused expose in relation to the cynical exploitation of service people. I dare say there will be feminists on here who will object, but I find the economic pressures which must prompt so many of your young women to serve in the armed forces, at the sharp end, an outrage - horrifying. Our far right-wingers who have imperilled the very livelihood even of women and children, who now face the prospect of homelessness as much as adult males, the absolute dregs of society, the absolute scum of the earth.

[bonito]

141. K&R

[chill_wind]

142. The 2004 Republican Kristallnacht Convention, positively dripping in the stagecraft

and trappings of our new-found state militarism should have been a wake-up call to every observer in this country as to how far down this road they'd already taken us. And we keep cooperating with it.

We have a whole small party wing faction of Zell-out Millers. They are just a little more nuanced most of the time.

We let Bush, Cheney and Rove do it. We let the corporate ho media glorify and cheerlead it. We should have had whole outraged delegations of Dems standing up and walking out together the very_first_time Repubs starting throwing the "Unpatriotic", "UnAmerican" and traitor labels and language around on the floor of Congress, crushing and gutting that kind of dialogue from the onset. They didn't do it.

Paralysis and fear of the Viet Nam blow-back? Maybe. But we don't have to keep forgiving it and reinforcing it. And it's absolutely perilous for us to keep re-electing it.

[renie408]

145. What I REALLY want to know is...

how do you get that thing in your profile that tells how many posts you have made??

[goodgd_yall]

146. I support this OP n/t

[Duppers]

149. true, and

occasionally you'll find an intelligent military person willing to talk about his not-so-honorable comrades, but especially the incompetent brass. emphasis on incompetent.

But my hat is off to most who willingly put their lives out there, thinking they were serving an honest government. That is a tragedy.

[robinlynne]

150. kicking this one!

[Jonathan Pollard]

153. They're being used for evil

The troops are being used for evil. Morally I don't see any difference between troops that obey Bush and those that obeyed Hitler.

[JackRiddler]

156. Thank you - well said. n/t

[lonestarnot]

159. K & R

I am sick of it.

[TankLV]

161. Thank you for these thoughts. I couldn't agree more...

It's certainly frightening, isn't it?

[McCamy Taylor]

172. On the other hand, if you set the bar high, you hope they will try to live up to it.

Look at how abysmally the Blackwater people behave in the same situations with the same weapons when there are no expectations that they will act like anything but animals?

Expect people to act noble, brave, humane, and they will try to live up to your expectations.

[2Design]

173. trained to kill - their minds will be messed up forever especially if they kill

people move to communities to keep their children safe and out of harms way and war throws them right in the middle of it and this war is the worse because it did not have to be - so many children whose minds are not f****

[NoGodsNoMasters]

179. This has bothered me for some time....

Firstoff, let me say that I hope this thing ends and everybody can come home safe so this can become a purely academic issue, but you are SO right about the "quasi-religious" sentiment.. It's bizarre! And it's the right wing's 1# weapon against the left, you critisize the war they go "how dare you denigrate our troops!" it's a straw man argument but it works. And, again, I wish the people over there no harm, but... I find it funny that there is no question of discretion or individual accountability for the soldiers, I don't know about you guys, but when I heard Colin Powell talk about this at the UN with that powerpoint presentation i detected the distinctive telltale odor of horseshit. Now, I have little sympathy, and most of us have little sympathy, for people who rush into lifetime commitments, people who get married after they've known eachother for a week, people who buy shit they KNOW they can't afford, people who have kids they can't possibly care for and so on.. It's an unspoken rule that when the price tag says "Forever" you give it a good think or at least kick the fucking tires. I don't see how the slightest research, even just middle-school class presentation-level-stuff would reveal that this conflict was not what the administration purported it to be. Just playing devil's advocate, but i know somebody's gonna misinterpret this...

[onehandle]

180. nt

nt

[live love laugh]

186. To honor the military is to glorify their destructive ends.

There are many young, impressionable kids seeking some meaning in their lives in this country where there are no jobs and education is a crapshoot who are lured into the military because of the glorified support of the troops.

Furthermore, to support the troops no matter what is an extension of support of those who send them to their deaths.

They do not deserve undying loyalty. I feel sorry for those who lose their lives but I don't see any honor in it.

[leftofthedial]

191. wow! cali! We agree on something!

It must be time for me to go to sleep!

[Riktor]

194. There's a more nefarious program at work here...

The politicians have used military-worship as a means of creating a voting bloc. In doing so, they have increased the number of groups any prospective official MUST pander to in order to win an election. It really has nothing to do with offending the sensibilities of the veterans, except those sensibilities the government itself has created.

[crikkett]

196. not to be flippant but they're the guys with all the guns, which you must agree

commands a certain level of respect.

[KG]

207. that wouldn't be respect - that would be fear.

[Lasher]

198. I didn't join up for various reasons.

I was drafted. And I sure as hell didn't waste 2 years of my life because I wanted to.

[sendero]

200. I've thought about this a lot..

.... and I pretty much agree with you.

I DO appreciate the service of those who enlisted. THEY didn't start this debacle, and MOST of them are doing the best they can under circumstances we can only imagine.

As for the LEADERSHIP of the military, I think they are a bunch of fucking cowards who SHOULD have told George to shove his stupid war up his incredibly stupid ass. Instead, they fall all over each other, trying to find and trump up a silver lining that does not exist.

Nothing has changed since Vietnam, not one god damned thing. There are always those who will claim to be angels acting like devils.

[Totally Committed]

203. I find the language of reverence that swaddles statements of unconditional support

of Israel distressing, as well.

It's almost an unwritten law that no politician can reference our unconditional support of Israel and her military without using quasi symbiotic AIPAC-approved language. Our country is far too militaristic and such language does nothing but reinforce the belief in other countries of the Middle East that we are supporters/sponsors of Israel's agressions in the area.

Israel is not always right. They're not always honorable. They're not always heroic. And yet, because of AIPAC and AIPAC's money, our politicians on both sides of the aisle support her unconditionally, no matter the fall-out.

Israel's soldiers are just people who joined up because Israel requires military service, being used by an agressive administration.

This is not a knock on the people of Israel. It's like any other population; some are brave. Some aren't. A few are heroes. A few are knaves.

They're just people, being used by their government as pawns of death and destruction.

So, you see: You say to-MAY-to, I say to-MAH-to... I see similarities in our treatment of a number of "sacred cows" in this country. Some distress me, and some distress you. You could substitute the words "The RW Christians" for "the military", and do the same thing. Can you see what I'm saying? Try "Red State Republicans". As I said, there are many "sacred cows" in this country. And A LOT of the loose talk about them has to stop.

TC

[cali]

204. I completely agree with your first sentence.

It's one reason I'm so proud of Senator Leahy, who's one of the few members of Congress who has actually criticized Israel. The unconditional support of Israel in Congress and almost all administrations is a huge impediment to peace in the ME.

But why you posted that in this thread strikes me as a little odd. Why not post an OP about it- though you might try using your own words instead of mine; flattering as that is.

[Totally Committed]

205. I posted it as-is because I wanted to show that the military is not the only "sacred cow"

in this country. There are a number of subjects treated exactly the way you described the "reverence" for the military. It was a repsonse to your OP, the words of which could be used to illustrate a distressing "reverence" for a number of subjects, not just the members of the military, by changing a few words here and there.

I'm glad you liked it and agreed with it, but it was an illustration, a response, and nothing more... It didn't deserve an OP of its own.

TC

[undeterred]

210. Yeah, I really don't get it.

I wasn't raised around anything military, and although I had a couple of uncles who served, uniforms make me uncomfortable. Especially when the person wearing the military uniform thinks I am supposed to be impressed. Neither the uniform nor the medals in and of themselves mean much of anything to me. When I see a wedding with a bunch of men in uniform and swords drawn, I am totally mystified.