So Joe Wilson is endorsing Hillary?

[Emit]

Hadn't heard that yet, but just caught the end of a news blurb about him supporting Hillary and speaking on her behalf in a town hall meeting yesterday.

[blm]

1. Odd to me, since no one from TeamClinton stuck their necks out to support him

and condemn BushInc for what they did.

In fact, two TeamClinton inner circle members were married to principle players in that outing and stayed silent about Karl Rove's role in it for the 18 months BEFORE THE 2004 ELECTION.

Carville married to Iraq War Group political cutthroat Mary Matalin, and Mandy Grunwald married to Matt Cooper - the journalist who knew Rove outed Plame, but let Rove deny his role and let the WH smear Wilson as the liar. So did Carville.

[durrrty libby]

3. Wilson disagrees with you

“Wilson also said he and his wife, while they were being targeted by Republicans, had steadfast support from Clinton.”


http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2007/sep/27/092710506.html

[blm]

7. On a PERSONAL LEVEL. They did not stick their necks out PUBLICLY about the issues

involved and Clinton team members DID STAY SILENT before the 2004 election about Rove's involvement and even let the WH smear Wilson as a liar.


Can you recount for us the many times YOU saw and heard the Clinton speak out publicly AGAINST the WH and in defense of Wilson and Plame from June 2003 through Nov.2004?

[durrrty libby]

8. Obviously Joe Wilson is happy with the Clinton support

whatever form it took, because he endorses Hillary

[blm]

11. Still doesn't change the fact they didn't stick their necks for him PUBLICLY

for the entire time he was being smeared and Rove was lying about his involvement, no matter how much they 'felt his pain' in private.


Would it benefit the Clintons to have Wilson PRIVATELY speaking in support of her now, or publicly?

[Emit]

23. That's exactly why this struck me as odd that Wilson would support Hillary. n/t

[H2O Man]

48. People in the legislative

branch are not supposed to take public positions on cases which are on-going and involve the judicial branch. That is the reason that democrats did not publicly support the Wilsons.

They have the ability to push for real investigations that examine the role of the OVP/WHIG/OSP in lying our nation into war, which should include reviewing the Plame scandal, the yellow cake forgeries, and the neocon/AIPAC espionage scandal.

It is my understanding that Senator Clinton provided a level of support to the Wilsons that the public is generally unaware of. It clearly has influenced Joe Wilson's opinion. Although I would not suggest that anyone let Wilson's opinion influence their choice in the primary, if by chance Senator Clinton does become the nominee, I think that her role in supporting the Wilsons merits further discussion.

[blm]

51. And why NONE of their team could manage a 'leak' that WH was lying the entire

time the WH was smearing Wilson as a liar?

I don't really believe that, H2O. It sounds like it should be right, except, what would have happened if the leak came out and Hillary was running in 2004? What would Grunwald and Carville have done then? What would the official Dem spokespeople done then?

And wouldn't it have been most beneficial to Wilson to get a Dem president in office in 2004 who would have opened the books necessary to vindicate him completely?

Douglas Brinkley, April2004:
Whom does the biographer think his subject will pick as a running mate? Not Hillary Rodham Clinton. Audio Link"There's really two different Democratic parties right now: there's the Clintons and Terry McAuliffe and the DNC and then there's the Kerry upstarts. John Kerry had one of the great advantages in life by being considered to get the nomination in December. He watched every Democrat in the country flee from him, and the Clintons really stick the knife in his back a bunch of times, so he's able to really see who was loyal to him and who wasn't. That's a very useful thing in life."

And we know what side Carville was playing for, too.

[H2O Man]

56. I think it is

pretty well documented that Wilson supported Kerry in 2004. I do not think there is any serious question about that.

Should democrats in the congress have done more? Absolutely. There were things they could have done.

One of the things that would have been beneficial would be for them to have revealed exactly why Wilson had been sent to Africa in the late 1990s -- who sent him, why, what he found, and who was familiar with his findings (including in 2002).

[blm]

57. I know Wilson did - and Kerry supported him - and they both took hits for it that they

wouldn't have had to take if more Democrats - influential Democrats - had chosen to stick their necks out and do the right thing for both of them.

And I am pretty confident ALOT has not been said - I read Bill's book. He couldn't mention AQ Khan or BCCI, but sides with giving our ports to Dubai (BCCI) and worry about invading Iran and Syria to stop them from 'getting nukes' (cue AQ Khan)??

Signed,
Not a coincidence theorist

[Emit]

58. I could see Wilson having a role in a Clinton administration. n/t

[maddezmom]

2. here's an article from yesterdad

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/nevada/2007/sep/27/092710506.html

[King Coal]

37. How is ol' Yesterdad?

[maddezmom]

50. LOL

better than Tom Morrow. :D

[still_one]

4. Should it surprise anyone that history is filled with people making the same mistakes over and over

again?

There should be no doubt that Hillary's position is on permanent occupancy in Iraq, and effectively following the bush objective of a continuing prescence in Iraq

I have no idea why wilson is supporting Hillary, I also have no idea why Congress ignores the mandate of 2006, that a major reason for their win was Iraq.

Nothing surprises me anymore.

Country deserves exactly what it gets

[KharmaTrain]

5. This Place Is Gonna Go Nuts

If and when Al Gore comes out in support of Hillary...or if other candidates do. Are they sell-outs as well?

[NNN0LHI]

14. Every last one of them dammit!

B-)

[timtom]

16. I'm sorry to have to disagree with you (both of you)

Mike Gravel and Dennis Kucinich certainly do not support Hillary (or any of the other warmongers).

[KharmaTrain]

19. And You Know This As Fact?

I remember DK supporers in '04 saying the same thing about Kerry. Seems to me I saw Dennis up on the stage at the Convention singing Kumbaya. And is Gravel really relevant? I like Mike...I think he's added some life to the party, but here's a guy who couldn't park his car properly...I'm sure the .01% who support him will be a real loss to the party.

At this point, I would hope neither man supports another candidate...why bother running? I appreciate Kucinich's presence in the campaign to bring out issues that should be discussed by the candidates, but his vote against S-CHIP yesterday sure isn't gonna win him many new supporters. What worse? Being a warmonger or being against health care for children?

[timtom]

21. Do I know that neither of them

would support any of the warmongers?

Try this, for instance:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x58303

And Kucinich's videos are all available on youtube or a google search.

Please.

Prove me wrong.

Respectfully,

nathan

[KharmaTrain]

24. I've Seen Kucinich In Person

I sat in on one of the debates and shook DK's hand. But his vote against S-CHIP yesterday disturbs me as much, if not more, than any of the "warmongers" you claim all the other Democrats are. Quite a broad brush to swipe there.

He supported Kerry in '04 and Kerry ran in favor of continuing the Iraq carnage. I only wish this upcoming election was purely on the Iraq mess...then it'd be easier to decide who to support. However, there's far more at stake. Who would he nominate to the Supreme Court should a vacancy occur? How would he restore international relations...who would serve in his administration?

I never supported this ugly war for profit and have a draft-age son. I have many reasons to see this crap end and the sooner the better. But I also want it as a withdrawl, not a retreat. I want our troops home safely and with a shread of honor and dignity remaining.

Sorry, not all "war mongers" are the same.

[timtom]

29. I want what you want.

But, I'm afraid we're beyond the point of dignity, as of 2003, when we invaded Iraq.

We need immediate withdrawal NOW!

Now, then: "broad brush"?

Kucinich has voted consistently against all war funding and/or expansion from the giddyup.

Mike Gravel is also vehemently against the war.

All the other candidates have, what we used to call in the Marine Corps as "half-stepping", half-stepped.

Please tell me who else among the Democrats wants out of Iraq NOW!

(If you had a link or two, that'd be cool, too.)

I haven't followed the S-CHIP issue, but this might help explain Kucinich's position:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/27/03018/2698

<snip> "I cannot support legislation which extends health coverage to some children while openly denying it to other children," Kucinich said. "This legislation is woefully inadequate: and I will not support it.

"Legal immigrant children deserve the same quality health care as other children receive. It is Congress’ responsibility to address the main difficulties that prevent legal immigrant children from gaining access to health care. Today, we did exactly the opposite.<end snip>

I have to go to the doctor, now.

I appreciate this dialogue.

[KharmaTrain]

31. Explain the Inadequate To A Parent Whos Child Just Lost Their Coverage

I read his statement...and what's worse, inadequate or no coverage whatsoever? Here's hoping you don't have a family member who falls into that rabbit hole. Yes, this is a very big issue with me as he didn't offer an alternative, just a No vote. Again, other than Iraq, where does he stand on other issues...how does he plan to accomplish this? I think this is a very important and relevant question.

Regarding Iraq...that Russert question was a ringer. I've followed the candidates on this issue closely and I don't know of one who has advocated keeping the invasion going. Going on record this far out of the elections and saying they will withdraw troops immediately pull up a red flag in my book. This mess will not be easy to get out of and you just don't put 150,000 troops on a plane at once. There has to be a plan to get our troops out safely...as well as all the other support personell and Iraqi "collaborators". No candidate can say definitely how things are gonna be a year from now or what messes they'll find once they take office.

If wishes were ponies, I'd have our troops home yesterday...hell they never would have set foot in that stink pit. But to use the overused term "we are where we are". Again, I want a plan...a timetable...not just words that sound good on the campaign trail.

Cheers to you and hope your doctor's visit is a healthy one.

Thank you for your understanding as well. It's so easy to flame here rather than discuss.

Cheers...

:toast:

[Virginia Dare]

33. That was the last straw on Kucinich for me..

I half seriously supported him for a time in 2004, but he was just too inexperienced and I knew he was going nowhere. I am convinced that he's not running a serious campaign this time either. He's all about "taking stands" that he knows he will never have to back up or implement. He's all about face time and being a red herring. He's all about antagonizing all of the other Dem candidates. I can't support that.

[KharmaTrain]

36. Now I'll Defend DK...

I think the man is sincere in his beliefs and that he has been of value to both the Democratic party and this campaign. He's keeping the other candidates "honest" with his stand on Iraq and is getting far better treatment than Ron Paul is on the other side.

Cheers...

[Virginia Dare]

39. Agreed, and I support him in that..

keeping the other candidates "honest", but I think he took it too far with his vote against SCHIP. I'm just pissed at him and blowing off steam right now.

[KharmaTrain]

41. I'm With You On That One

When it comes to the health of several million children, I'd rather have a flawed bill than none at all. If he wants it changed, that's what he can do if he's elected. Just as he claims he can bring troops home in 3 months, he should also be able to push through a better healthcare bill. However, I have never seen anything from him on this subject.

I was at the YKos debate...and DK sure knows how to play the crowd. That was the problem...he played the house and didn't debate. And other than Iraq and NAFTA he's remained quiet. It's easy to get applause, it's not so easy to take an unpopular position and defend it. My biggest concern with DK is he doesn't play well with others. Do we want another president who only listens to what they want to hear and dismisses what others say?

Cheers....

[bobbolink]

44. When you start saying that ANY percentage is "not a loss to the party"

you're weakening the party.

MIght want to think about that Karma a bit with that kind of harsh, dismissive and certainly not peaceful talk.

[KharmaTrain]

49. Agreed And Point Taken

But then aren't those who already dismiss Senator Clinton doing the same thing?

Again, I will support whomever the party nominee is...be it Kucinich or Gravel or Clinton...and I would hope others who have closed minds now will keep theirs open as well.

It irks me to hear Democrats who ape GOOP talking points about Senator Clinton not being electable and she's a warmonger and other slams...and that's not weakening the party?

I appologize to Senator Gravel...nothing personal. The point is that closed minds and group think are things I see on the Repugnican side...it's all but a virtue. I would hope Democrats would be more tolerant and look at the bigger picture...and who we really need to be going after next year.

Cheers...

[bobbolink]

52. In your terms, my mind is "closed", so kick me to the curb.

I no longer give a flying shit.

all the crap that's said here about "voting your own best interest"... well, that's exactly what I intend to do... if I can even vote.

Clinton trashed welfare and people died. It wasn't even important enough to him to track them to know HOW MANY people died. That's just how little it mattered to him.

His darling wife is following the same track. I'll be DAMNED if I'll vote for more of the same.

So, trash me, call me names, and lock the door to keep me out of your blesssed party.

I no longer give a flying fuck.

[KharmaTrain]

17. This Place Is Sure Gonna Be Lonely

With all these "I'm not voting for Hillary no way no how"...well then I guess they're be departing DU as well. Then of course, when a Repugnican is elected (or selected, if the election is close) then it's OUR fault we lost. Plausible deniability is such a virtue these days.

Cheers...

[bobbolink]

53. No, all you DLCers will keep yourselves quite warm with lookning down your

nose at those of us who have HAD IT, and patting each other on the back for just how superior you are.

You'll do just fine.

[Kelly Rupert]

6. You know, it's possible

that rather than it being Wes Clark, Joe Wilson, a strong plurality of Democrats, and a number of unions who are horribly wrong about Hillary Clinton...maybe she's actually a pretty-good Democrat, and the "netroots" are overreacting.

[Cameron27]

9. And George McGovern...

[TornadoTN]

10. I'll take a pretty-good Democrat any day of the week

Over any Republican.

[BlooInBloo]

20. There ya go.

[Emit]

15. I'm not sure I follow

and I know it's because I had a sleepless night and am just on my first cup of java, but could you restate that comment so I can understand it better? -- I particularly don't follow your reference to Wes Clark. Thanks.

[BlooInBloo]

22. Clinton-haters (i.e. DU) is trying to work through the cognitive dissonance...

.... of Clark, and now Wilson endorsing Clinton. They primary methods they have at their disposal are (a) not talking about it (usual method), or (b) carrying the hate to Clark, Wilson, or whomever has the temerity to be for Clinton.

DUers will NEVER consider the possibility that *they* are the ones who are wrong. It will always be THEM that's wrong. DUers just KNOW they're right, so there's no need to consider any other option. It's the standard American problem.

[blm]

25. and Bill supporting Poppy and Poppy supporting House of Saud....

yeah - WE are the ones with cognitive dissonance.

[BlooInBloo]

38. Do you know what the words you used even MEAN?

[blm]

42. They mean that the powerful elite will have their secrecy and privilege and we will

have closed government.

YOU side with Clinton, Bush, House of Saud, Dubai. I won't.

[BlooInBloo]

43. Erm... yaaahhh... Here's a little secret for ya - I caused 9/11 too.

[blm]

46. You would be to blame ONLY if you were the one who convinced Bill Clinton

to close the books on BushInc and ignore the outstanding matters of that criminal administration when he took office in 1993.

http://consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html


I doubt you or anyone her at DU would have done that. And hard for me to believe anyone believes it won't happen again.

[frylock]

26. you forgot rupert murdoch..

people around here thought Lieberman was a good Democrat as well. Fool me once...

[never_get_over_it]

12. I'm pretty sure Joe Wilson was a repunk at one time

can't think of a better Democratic candidate for him than Hillary repunk lite Clinton....

[truebrit71]

28. He was. He was an ambassador under 41....do you think they give those to anyone OTHER than rethugs?

...not bloody likely...

Doesn't make him any the less a patriot though...but does go along way to explain why he is endorsing a GOP-lite candidate..

[xiamiam]

13. sorry to hear that...I have great respect for Joe Wilson..dont understand this however...nt

[BlooInBloo]

18. Then DUers will turn on him too.

[KharmaTrain]

27. It's Already Started...

Along with General Clark and anyone else who supports "war mongers" (seems like any candidate other than Kucinich and Gravel).

[Cameron27]

32. Yes it has,

now Geroge McGovern's senile, Clark's a sellout looking to be VP, and I imagine Gore and Kerry will suffer the same fate if they decide to endorse her.

[Lucinda]

45. Yup. I was shocked at the senile comment the other day

I get passion...I dont get it when it blindly attacks

[Virginia Dare]

34. Yep, you don't have to go very far up thread..

the heroes are falling one by one.

[Generator]

30. No surprise I got the idea

that Wilson was a huge Bill Clinton fan. He is longing for the "old" days. Denial runs deep even among the smartest. But you know, his suffering isn't on par with someone that lost a love one in the war-his wife lost her job-the government is a traitor to all it's ideals-the Constitution, not torturing, not manufacturing bogus wars, and somehow he must think that the Clintons by not REALLY being part of the solution aren't part of the problem.

I think they are part of the problem. I want a new government with new blood. What has Bill Clinton or Hillary Clinton done to stop the evil amongst us? How much have they given, suffered, led? Joe Wilson did MORE. (oh YES, in the time of greatest peril to this country Bill Clinton write a book about GIVING-yes giving is great Bill but you are lying-how much is being stolen? What a fucking farce)

I respect Wilson more than either Clinton. He can vote for whomever he wants and I will STILL respect him. He's a dying breed.

[KharmaTrain]

35. Many Wouldn't Mind A Return To The 90's

These are people who had jobs and careers that have been outsourced. These are people who had healthcare and now have to decide between eating and buying medication. It's people who started businesses (like me) and thrived as we didn't have a regime that has all but destroyed chances for people to be anything more than wage slaves. It was a country that was respected around the world and helped mediate peace in the Middle East and the Balkans. It's a country where we didn't worry about having our phone calls tapped or our emails read. Yep, those were the bad old days.

Now I hope you haven't forgotten how the Clintons suffered during all the sliming and endless, pointless investigations that were personal attacks on these people. Clinton was far from perfect...I thought his support of Telcom '96 was a disaster and still do, but compared to the crooks we have in charge now, Clinton's not even on the radar.

I'd like government with new blood as well...and am working on the local level to help build the next generation of Democrats. But that's a luxuary we can't afford. Whomever takes control on 1-20-09 is gonna have a major mess to clean up...and will require both political skill and experience to bring this country back from the mess we're in now. It's gonna require someone to make tough choices and be able to stand up to both the corporate media and a Repugnican slime machine.

Maybe Joe Wilson knows more about this than you do. Same goes for General Clark and many others who will be announcing their support for Senator Clinton. Now I don't recall Clinton manufacturing a bogus war...just the howls of Repugnican hypocrites that he was "wagging the dog".

[benny05]

40. Actually...he did endorse her

While I wish he would endorsed someone else, at least he's helping other Dems with fund raisers, at the same time promoting his book. He helped Larry Kissell, running for NC-08 with an appearance last Saturday, I believe.

[Emit]

47. He announced his endorsement of Clinton back in July

Musta' missed this one.

Joe Wilson Endorses Hillary!
By Greg Sargent - July 16, 2007, 1:38PM
Joe Wilson just endorsed Hillary during an ongoing conference call with liberal bloggers.

Wilson just said that "she is the one candidate in my judgment who understands the need to get America out of harm's way," and into a "political process." He added that she best understands the need to "end the war but end it in a way that preserves some shred of our strategic position in the region."

More soon.

Update: Wilson also says that one thing that bonds the two is their mutual experience with the "meat grinder" -- a.k.a., the right wing slime machine.

Update II: Wilson, asked if he would serve under a Hillary administration if offered a post, says: "This is not a job interview," though he adds: "You never know."

Update III: A few quick points about this. The Hillary campaign, which rolled out the Wilson news on a conference call with liberal bloggers, clearly hopes the Wilson endorsement serves at least the partial goal of winning over liberal activists and netroots types who might still be unhappy with Hillary for all the reasons you've heard repeatedly by now. Wilson carries great cache among such folks, who were energized by his speaking out against the administration and everything else that happened as a result of his protracted fight with the White House.

It's interesting, then, to note that the primary reason Wilson cited for backing Hillary is her view of what should happen after the war -- her awareness, as he sees it, of the need to end the war "in a way that preserves some shred of our strategic position in the region." This, of course, touches on the whole residual force debate, which ironically is something Hillary has taken heat for from bloggers and others whom the Wilson endorsement is most likely to impress.

~snip~

Update IV: Taylor Marsh, who was also on the call, offers an interesting take on how this endorsement, and their announcement of it, reveals Hillary's willingness to engage the blogging community despite the heat she's taken from it. Her analysis here.

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/07/joe_wilson_endorses_hillary.php

[Raksha]

54. Is this supposed to mean something to me?

I like and respect Joe Wilson and will continue to like and respect him, but he has never claimed to be a liberal.

[Blackhatjack]

55. These two issues bother me a great deal about Hillary being the Dem Nominee....

1) Her relationship with Rupert Murdock, who has contributed lots of money to her personally, and has hosted fundraisers for her campaign, and spent time with her in face to face meetings.

IMHO this is the same thing as meeting with Satan and taking his money with strings attached.

2) Her relationships with the insurance industry lobbyists and taking huge amounts of money from them without so much as a twitch about the ethical conflict that will arise if she is in a position to advocate universal healthcare as President.

IMHO this is going to hurt her credibility as the extent of funds coming from this group are publicly disclosed.

I have yet to hear any hard and fast positions that Hillary has taken which would definitely offend one group or another.

If Hillary becomes the nominee she gets my vote, but I believe the above will hurt her in the General Election.