Let's discuss lowering the drinking age to 18

[Bake]

A certain Democratic candidate advocated this in the debate earlier this week. Personally, I think it's a terrible idea. Why? I've had an 18-year old son.

Do 18 year olds drink? Certainly many do. And then they get behind the wheels of their cars. Let's not legalize at that age the thing that probably kills more teenagers than anything else. They've only been driving for 2 years at that point.

I've heard the "old enough for the military, old enough to drink" canard for decades. They're old enough to volunteer, true. But the majority of 18-year olds do not volunteer for the military.

I think we have enough problems in this country that need serious solutions. Lowering the drinking age is not one of them. Feel free to chime in -- agree or disagree.

Bake

[rockymountaindem]

1. The drinking age in many parts of Canada is 18

or 19 at most. They don't have a big problem with it, why should we?

[Flabbergasted]

60. Good point.

[book_worm]

2. I support lowering it to 19 not 18

Many 18 year olds are still at home and in HS at that age. Most people by age 19 are have graduated from HS and are allowed to make their own choices and going out on their own.

[iamjoy]

3. Compromise

Allow 18 year olds on Active Military Duty to drink.

I understand the problems of young people drinking, but honestly, it makes no sense that one is legally an adult at 18 (and in some cases have been treated as adults at younger ages), but they can't legally drink until they're 21

[halobeam]

5. how about we raise the Active Military age to 21

and match it w/ the drinking age.??

[Frosty1]

23. Best idea I've heard yet!

:yourock:

[Richard Steele]

27. Bingo. I'd support that wholeheartedly! nm

[Flabbergasted]

41. I think most people who have went through boot camp agree it is best you get it over

with when you are young. I tend to agree.

[katmondoo]

4. Yes it is serious

We have too many wacko's on the road now. Eighteen year old's should not be drinking, period! No need for it ,it is not healthy, it is not necessary.

[Selatius]

6. I support it with the provision that we pass a federal mandatory seatbelt law in all 50 states.

There's more than a fair amount of evidence to suggest that mandating seat belts have contributed to the decrease in fatality rates on America's roads over the last 20 years. In the years when states transitioned to 21 as the drinking age, mandatory seat belt laws have proliferated. The question becomes which saved more lives?

People are going to drive drunk regardless of what the law says, so I doubt punishing everybody else in addition to the law breakers is going to help save lives, but more people than ever before drive with seat belts now.

[ThomCat]

7. I think that if we had intelligent discussions with kids

about access to alcohol and the importance of moderation, starting as a young age, the actual drinking age would be irrelevant.

If people growing up thinking that at some magical age they're allowed to cut loose then they will. If alcohol is seen as a prize or a reward then people are going to drink just because they can. If they have to hide alcohol from their families then they will, and it will be abused just because there's no adult supervision.

I think kids who grow up around social alcohol consumption, who have tasted alcohol as kids, and know that they can have a drink around their family are not going to go out and get trashed.

I think, instead of debating a drinking age, we should be rethinking how we handle alcohol in this country.

[blondeatlast]

11. I so agree with you. Parents and caregivers are in a far, far better position (in most

cases) to know when it is appropriate, are in environments where they can control the introduction of alcohol (ora any drug, for what that is worth), and are in far better position to make children understand the consequences of everything.

[alarimer]

15. I think you have a valid point here

I don't know if France and Italy have legal drinking ages or now but in those countries wine, at least, is something you grow up with. People drink a glass with lunch or dinner, even kids, and it is just no big deal. Now I do not know if those countries have a problem with binge drinking among college students but I have never heard that they do.

I think our culture of "do as I say, not as I do" is a root cause of the problem. Kids see their parents drinking, yet those same parents are telling them not to do it.

[Selatius]

16. I call it the "forbidden fruit" syndrome.

I like the philosophy towards alcohol that French and Germans have. The drinking age is 16 in both countries. It is introduced at a young age and is present at the dinner table quite often inside the home even before 16, so all the sex appeal and exoticness of the drink disappears. Teenagers over there don't drink to make themselves look cool; that's stupid to them.

[Johonny]

37. I agree

I think there is some merit to a lower legal drinking age. However there is nothing to prevent your parents now from allowing you to drink wine with them at the dinner table at 16.

[pitohui]

52. except laws about contributing to the delinquency of a minor EOM

.

[TheUniverse]

8. I support lowering the drinking age to 12.

Why? Because children as young as 12 can get charged as adults when they commit crimes. So that must mean 12 year olds are able to think as clearly as a 21 one year old, and they deserve all they privileges a 21 year old has.

[hang a left]

28. That is such a revelant point.

I haven't read all the way down the thread yet, but you sparked my interest.

Absolutely no one wants their child to drink and drive. You can teach, and lecture until you are blue in the face. Bottom line is teenagers take dangerous risks in spite of parenting.

They are still kids. They absolutely do not have the life experiences that shape us older adults. The will and must make their own mistakes. You have carried them this far. You can only hope and pray that you have made an impact on them. You can only hope that they will make the right decisions for themselves. It has been your total obsession for almost 20 years.

After that, it is really on them. Of course we will be here when and if they crash. I did it many times as a young adult. And hopefully they trust us enough to come to us when the shit hits the fan.

Having said ALL of that. I don't think that laws regulating the use of alcohol are going to change whether kids drink or not. Laws have not curtailed the smoking of pot for people of all ages.

Do I want my 20 year old hanging out at a bar??? No. Do I want him smoking weed and driving? No. Am I powerless over his decisions. Yes.

And moving on to the discussion...

There must be a law enacted that protects kids from being accused as an adult. Not that I don't think that some acts shouldn't be penalized to the maximum regardless of age, however I am very sympathetic to youthful errors. There needs to be a clear line that designates maturity, and one that is not differentiated from. You just don't assign prosecution based upon a DA's hard on.

[pitohui]

53. 18 year olds are not kids, 12 year olds are kids EOM

.

[Jed Dilligan]

9. Drink at 16, drive at 21 would be my solution

It would force public transit solutions on local governments and people, which would be excellent. Kids who learn to ride the bus keep riding the bus.

[Selatius]

10. That's a pretty novel idea, but many under 21s need a car to survive.

Not all of these people have such generous parents, or any parents whatsoever. The result: They have to go out and find a job to rent an apartment and pay the utilities and everything else. What interim solution do you offer these folks before a functioning mass transit system is implemented nationwide?

[Jed Dilligan]

32. Expansion of hardship licensing, maybe?

Though the bureaucracy to prove you needed a license in a place that has some, but not adequate transit would be a nightmare.

I lived carless as a teenage college student in one of the worst places for transit in the US--Orange County, CA. My ride took about an hour each way (the drive was 20 min.), much of it driving around a shopping mall between my home and the campus. It was a pain in the ass and made my dating life non-existent, but I got a lot of work done on that bus.

[blondeatlast]

12. A pretty good idea, actually. nt

[ThomCat]

14. That would work in urban areas.

It's a very good idea actually.

But it would never work in suburban and rural areas where you need a car to be able to work, get to college classes, etc.

[Jed Dilligan]

31. Okay, full disclosure: I think suburbia should be abolished

But that's a whole other story.

As far as rural areas go, there is already a system of hardship licensing where kids as young as 10 are allowed to drive to school.

[ThomCat]

33. I agree about suburban sprawl.

I think we would all be better off if we stopped spreading endlessly towards the horizon.

[Jed Dilligan]

35. The land that has been ploughed under for suburbs is the land

that SHOULD be supporting the cities. And the flight of the middle class from the inner city has left a horrible void. With the cold war over, the military rationale for spreading out the population is more or less moot, Tom Clancy scenarios notwithstanding.

[DS1]

13. Make it 16

and let them learn their limits before getting a license

[Whoa_Nelly]

17. Sure..and increase the potential for alcoholism and drunk-driving accidents

That'll teach them limits! :silly:

(am hopefully assuming that your post was sarcastic, and not serious)

[ieoeja]

54. If he isn't, I am.

Grew up in a community where drinking laws were largely flouted. Walked into bars in the 6th grade and saw classmates doing their homework while sipping on a beer.

I think it is a good idea to learn how to handle alcohol BEFORE learning how to handle a car.

Of course, half my 6th grade classmates were driving by then as well. But the cops WOULD nail you for that unless it was farm related.

[Mojorabbit]

65. I was raised with a portuguese

mother and american father. I spent a good part of my younger years living in the Azores Islands. I had wine with meals watered down from a young age so alcohol was never a forbidden deal and I turned out just fine. I think it is part of the puritan culture here that has made it such an awful problem.

[DS1]

67. That's just simple 'worst case' stuff in action

Nobody has ever tried lowering the drinking age to 16, so how do you know? How do you know that giving kids the chance to get smashed 'while they can't drive' won't decrease the amount of drunk driving going on? Obviously, 21 is just a number, as plenty of 25, 26, 24 year olds are getting pulled over for DUI.

18 is just a guess at maturity, as is 21, as is 17. The first day I got my license I was more of a danger to everyone than the first day I could legally buy alcohol. I found myself, within less than a minute, doing 90 in a 25 zone just because I kept accelerating in my mom's Honda Accord. I did look down and think "Holy shit, I'm doing 90!", but at that point I was more dangerous than any kid walking home from a bar, drunk, because he cannot yet drive a car.

[T Wolf]

18. A comparison of "youth" drinking here and in Europe shows that our

system, with the age at 21, actually is much worse than that in Europe in which most countries have a lower age.

Here, kids know that it is verboten, so that allure, coupled with the idea of drinking to get totally wasted, results in much more binge drinking and the accompanying problems.

In Europe, more young people learn to drink responsibly. It is a part of social interaction, not the main reason for social interaction. They do not feel that they have to "drink all the evidence away" in case they get busted.

Sure, there is abuse in both settings. I would just assert that it is worse here under our system.

And DO NOT throw in the drunk-driving red herring. We all can (should) agree that drunk driving is a problem. So, punish that. Maybe, by teaching responsible drinking at an earlier age, drunk driving would be lessened.

[TahitiNut]

19. Well, doesn't everyone know a drunken soldier is the best soldier?

I have no problem making the drinking age 18 in the EM Club and NCO Club for active duty military. Everywhere else, it should probably be 35.

[Bake]

38. Good point!

Bake

[Zywiec]

20. I support lowering it to 18

In Germany you can drink beer at 16 but must be 18 to get a driver's license. What is the point of having it 21? Aren't you legally an adult at 18? You can vote, join the military, get married, etc, but you can't drink a beer? Just more of backward America.

[johnaries]

21. How about this? Leave it at 21 UNLESS you are in the military.

If you are in the millitary, you are automatically considered and adult and are allowed to drink if you wish.
Military Recruitment problems solved!
:evilgrin:

[ThomCat]

26. I would support a military exemption to the drinking age.

That makes sense.

[Ezlivin]

61. When I was in the Navy...

I was 20; the legal drinking age in my home state of Florida was 18. I had already been legally drinking for two years.

But I was transferred to California where the drinking age was 21. I couldn't drink off-base, but on base the EM club served 3.0 beer to those of us too young to drink legally.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

22. I think that anyone old enough to die in a war, should be old enough to drink if they choose

I simply find the argument that a person is too irresponsible at the age of 18 to know how to control their drinking, yet they can join the military, hypocritical.

If we must shelter our youth due to our social failings to teach them correctly, then that should spread across the board to all areas of their young lives.

Perhaps the answer lies in providing 18 year olds with a special training class which they must pass before they get a license to purchase alcohol?

As it is now I don't know of a single person between the ages of 18 and 21 that hasn't drank alcohol even with it not being legal.

[ieoeja]

55. I did not start drinking til I was 21.

Sort of. I drank as a child, of course. But I quit drinking when I was 12. Decided I no longer liked the taste. Didn't have another drink til a couple months after turning 21.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

59. And do you consider that the rule or the exception?

Of the young people I know it's the exception. I was wrong though, there was one girl who still has never drank whom I'd forgotten about and was reminded of by my daughter. She's now 20 an has never drank. Her father is an alcoholic.

Still, I consider her an exception and not the rule.

[Zensea]

24. It used to be 18

and look at all the chaos that caused.
.:sarcasm:
The drinking age was 18 when I was 18.

If you've really heard the canard for decades then the drinking age was 18 when you were 18.

The problem is not drinking, the problem is drinking and driving. The main reason the age got raised was because of higher likelihood/probability of people between 18 and 21 being in an accident involving alcohol with the lower age.

If the problem is drinking and driving, then logically it can be solved also by restricting the privilege of driving instead of restricting the privilege of drinking. That's the tack they take in Europe. Of course, with our American infatuation with the automobile, it doesn't happen here.

[Bake]

40. Hard to remember back that far ...

But yeah, I think the legal drinking age was 18 when I was 18. And I had several friends and/or acquaintances killed in car accidents in which alcohol was a factor. My son, now 19, has lost two friends (both under 21, by the way) to alcohol-related car accidents.

I think the sanest approach is leave it at 21, with an exemption for military.

Bake

[fasttense]

25. I thoroughly disagree with you.

I had a 21 year old son too. I knew he drank at 18. He wasn't obvious about it, but I picked up clues here and there. So we had a talk, and he never, ever drank then drove his car. Why? Because I drummed it into his head over and over again. I also told him that if he drank and found himself stranded that he could call me and I would pick him up with no lecture or punishment. He made me sign a statement to that affect. I picked him up twice.

When you force young men to hide their drinking they will also hide drinking and driving because they can't trust their parents to help them when they make a bad decision.

I also believe teenagers need to learn how to drink responsibly. Most teenagers learn to drink by watching their peers. They rarely get a chance to find their consumption limits, their responsible drinking levels or to learn what is appropriate drinking except from kids their age who are also experimenting. By lowering the age limit, it might give kids a chance to learn how to appropriately drink from their parents when they are of legal drinking age.

[Bake]

43. I made the same deal with my son.

I'd pick him up, no questions asked. I've never lectured him about drinking, but we have discussed drinking and driving -- many many times.

Not all parents are going to do that. I'm proud of my son and the responsible way he has handled himself. But not all teenagers are that responsible, and it doesn't hurt anything to have them wait until 21.

Bake

[Mojorabbit]

29. The drinking age was 18 when

I came of age. I don't have a problem with it at all. The world didn't fall apart because I could legally party at that age. I was in nursing school, I had a blast, I have no idea why they raised it back up to 21.

[ieoeja]

Reagan forced everyone to raise it.

Threatened to cut off federal highway funding to any state that would not raise the age.

Why? Usual conservative nonsense. Can't trust the people to know what's best for them, etc.

[wuushew]

30. Car culture is going to die anyway

because of peak oil. If you want to make the road safer how about considering culling the number of people over 65 still driving since many can't drive worth shit?

Also ignition interlock devices are getting ever cheaper so it is quite feasable that in the near future if the government so desired many many unintentional DUIs could be prevented by such devices. That would be fair to everybody regardless of age.


I don't see the reality of the situation changing anytime soon since the relevant age group 18-20 will always be numerically outnumbered by the older and more authoritarian voter block.

[BlooInBloo]

34. 18 year olds are stupid enough as it is.

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

36. the legal drinking age in Germany is 16

for beer and 18 for spirits. The kids here seem to handle it well. I think it is a matter of how a culture approaches alcohol consumption in the first place. There isn't the same hysteria about drinking here that there is in the US. It's just a normal part of life; you have a beer or glass of wine with your meal (lunch included!) and that's that. Of course some teens abuse it but it isn't seen as forbidden fruit and therefore is not a huge problem that I can tell.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Drink at sixteen. Drive at sixteen.

Wait until 21 until drinking and driving.

[Midlodemocrat]

42. I would like the driving age to be raised.

So that an individual gets their license at the same time they get either their GED or high school diploma.

I think it would reduce drop out rates and save lives.

[backscatter712]

44. Lower the drinking age!

Jesus Christ, how many puritanical authoritarians do we have on this board?

Old enough to vote, old enough to kill for your country == old enough to drink. Period. End of discussion.

If you don't like it, why don't you join the Republicans - their philosophy of restricted freedom seems more to your taste.

[Bake]

46. Speaking of authoritarian ...

You state your position, then PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. And then you accuse those of us who disagree of being Republicans.

Nice.

There are many valid reasons to oppose lowering the drinking age. There are also valid reasons to support it. The point of the thread was to discuss and flesh out those reasons.

Frankly, I've never seen the logical correlation between the drinking age and the age at which one can join the military (although when I was 18 and WANTED to drink, I espoused that position as well).

Bake

[sinkingfeeling]

45. Yes, let's go around this circle one more time...

Was set in the 1930's at 21, later reduced in most states to 18 (during active draft and Viet Nam), and then raised in 1984(?) back to 21 has the bodies of teenage drivers began to pile up.

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1360-0443.1993.tb02165.x

After receiving little attention from 1940 to 1970, minimum-age laws were a focus of debate and policy change in the United States from 1970 to 1985. In the 1970s, 29 states lowered the legal age, and in the late 1970s and early 1980s, all states with an age below 21 raised the legal age to 21 for all types of alcoholic beverages. Research on the effects of such policy changes were a central component in the political debates on minimum-age laws. The process by which research results influenced public policy deliberations is discussed. Characteristics that facilitated research results being taken into account in the policy debates included: (1) research of high interval validity that withstood challenge, (2) dissemination of the research results beyond networks of scientists, and (3) participation of bridging individuals who learned of the research results, and condensed and communicated key findings to policy-makers.

[Feron]

47. This country has a corncob up its butt when it comes to drugs.

I'm tired of the puritanical nonsense. If someone is a legal adult, then treat that person like one. And if a person makes the poor choice of driving while impaired then that person should face the consequences.

It's not about safety, it's about control. The temperance movement unfortunately never really did die off, it just changed the rhetoric.

Louisiana didn't have an issue with an 18 year old drinking age, but reluctantly changed it because they were going to lose highway funds if they didn't. What these nanny staters don't get is that the forbidden fruit aspect to alcohol contributes to the binge drinking mentality. When I turned 21, alcohol no longer became a big deal. Whereas before it was get plastered while it's still here.

We all know that abstinence is a piss poor public policy. I think the 'designated driver' meme is much more effective than taking away someone's beer. And we often hear about people with multiple DUIs and not getting much in the way of punishment. Why not work to change those laws instead?

[azmouse]

48. If someone is considered an adult at 18

then they should have ALL the rights that go with it... and that includes the right to drink.

[qdemn7]

49. Drinking age was 18 in 1975

When I turned 18. And it should be again. You are considered an adult when you turn 18 in the country in all respects except two: (1) You cannot drink (2) You cannot purchase a handgun.

Mt argument is this:

If you can vote, get married, sign a legal contract, get credit, run for political office, hold said office, join the military, die for your country, then you should be able to consume alcohol.

The opposition to this is typical of people who always know what is best for OTHER people. Typical nanny-state bullshit: "Oooh if it saves ONE life, it's worth it!" Just does not apply to drinking, it applies to other issues also. Americans seems to thrive on running from one "Moral Panic" to another. From one "Moral Crusade" to another.

In a "moral panic" certain people or certain behaviors are defined as a threat to social values. The persons/behavior are described in a stereotyped and hysterical fashion by the media. The moral panics are launched by "moral entrepreneurs," who frequently have both ideological and financial interests in the propagation of the panic. The moral panic is set off by an "atrocity tale," which is an event (real or imaginary) that evokes moral outrage, implicitly justifies punitive actions against those considered responsible for the event, and mobilizes society to control the perpetrators.

Moral panic is a sociological term, coined by Stanley Cohen, meaning a reaction by a group of people based on the false or exaggerated perception that some cultural behavior or group, frequently a minority group or a subculture, is dangerously deviant and poses a menace to society.

Sound familiar???

Moral panics are REACTIONARY. You want to be considered a Reactionary?

The "18 yr olds should not drink" is the largest example of the "Neo-Prohibitionist Movement".

[Jed Dilligan]

50. Nothing is uglier to me than a room (or thread)

full of people in moral panic. These are the same types of people that once burned witches and Jewish ghettoes.

[qdemn7]

57. Agreed..

It's ironic that here we are discussing the Moral Panic of under-age drinking, with some people advocating restrictions, when I'm sure everyone here would opposes the Moral Panic / Moral Crusade of the Iraq War.

When Progressives want to know why America is always interfering in other countries affairs, it's because of the Moral Panic / Moral Crusade. Truly ironic that these same Progressives often go off on their own Moral Crusade, whether it's against alcohol, guns or pornography.

[pitohui]

51. there is no logic to your argument at all

it is not legal for anyone of any age to get behind the wheel of their car and drink

however, an 18 year old should certainly be able to have a glass of wine or beer with dinner

[spanone]

56. Is this a federal issue? I thought states instituted drinking age?

:shrug:

[qdemn7]

58. Yes, but

The Feds force the issue by threatening to deny Highway Funding to any state that lowers its drinking age.

[Cleita]

62. As an ex bartender I disagree. First no one should get behind

the wheel and drive once they've been drinking. Providing cheap transportation to and from is a better solution for ALL drinkers of any age. I'm surprised no one has worked up a solution for this. It seems a pool of businesses who serve alcohol could hire a driver and a car to pick up and deliver in a designated geographical area, but the details would need to be worked out for this.

Secondly, unlike high school, eighteen year olds are thrown into an adult world, both in college and on the job. Those adults go and have social nights out and unfortunately they bring the under twenty-one year olds with them. I think it's good that they learn to socialize with older friends who show them the ropes of drinking and socializing in bars. Not letting them drink with their peers makes for a lot of law breaking by these youngsters trying to fit in.

Now your real concern is drinking and driving and you should be concerned about that. All of us should be, but the solution has little to do with eighteen year olds. It has to do with making sure there is transportation available with responsible drivers at the helm. Also, your eighteen year old is in far more danger drinking illegally and covertly than if it's out in the open where he's less likely to get into a car with a peer who has drunk too much. Most bartenders do take keys away from and call a cab for those they feel have had too much.

[Jed Dilligan]

64. I've always felt that drunk driving was a transportation issue

not a moral issue. Late night buses between where the bars are and where people live; more bars near where the people live; problem solved. The NIMBYs who control local government will scream bloody murder--they don't want businesses or bus lines affecting their hemhorroidally inflated property values. But at some point we need to tell the gentry to fuck themselves because we are sick of hearing about dead kids on the road.

[killbotfactory]

63. The drinking age limit tends to glorify alcohol consumption

It turns drinking a sign of maturity, and something for young people to aspire too. It certainly doesn't stop underage kids from acquiring alcohol, and when they do drink without any adult supervision (in the majority of cases) they don't drink responsibly.

We need an approach which recognizes that a parent giving their fifteen year old a glass of champaign on new years is not the same as a bunch of kids going out in the woods and drinking until they puke.

We need a radical rethinking our entire approach to substance abuse problems in this country.

[Orangepeel]

66. The age when you can vote should be the age of full citizenship

and there shouldn't be special restrictive laws that apply only to one age group.