"I generally oppose the death penalty .... but ... "

[Stinky The Clown]

How often have we heard those words said .... or perhaps uttered them ourselves?

Once again, with the story of that tragic little girl from Nevada, these words again have currency.

"I generally oppose the death penalty, but I could make an exception for the man who did this to her."

I'd like to see a rational discussion of this. As preamble, let it be known that my own views are unstated herein and I am NOT advocating for or against the death penalty. I really want to explore the emotional side of all this.

[Warpy]

1. I want him disarmed and locked up

but I don't want him dead. I want him locked up for the rest of his pointless and evil life, but without the ability to do to any other prisoner what he has done to that brutalized little girl.

Death is too easy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. It's a cliche.

Like whenever somebody talks gallows humor, there's always a guy that says "that's not funny, my brother died that way."

[BobRossi]

3. Sexual predators that prey on children and the defenseless.

They can't be cured, they shouldn't be in society. Put them on an island and let them have their way with one and other.

[JuniperLea]

15. My grandpa used to say the exact same thing!

Almost verbatim!

[LakeSamish706]

26. I'm thinking mandatory castration for starters.. n/t

[rateyes]

28. Yep. For starters.

[DaveJ]

31. I like the island idea too

Plus, no matter how heinous someone is, I never feel the urge to kill, except perhaps in emotionally heated situations, but of course even then I don't actually kill. Institutionalizing the death penalty is the coward's solution to things.

[rateyes]

4. I'm opposed to the death penalty ..

even for that guy in Nevada. I am for putting his ass in prison for life in the general population. (Which, in his case, won't be much of a, or a very much longer, life.)

[11 Bravo]

14. So you want someone else to do your dirty work?

[rateyes]

24. Well, now that you mention it....

I guess I would find evil pleasure in doing it myself. I know one thing...if you sentenced him to death, he'd be on death row in solitary confinement for quite a while as the appeals process crawled through the court system.

If you sentence him to life in prison, he'll die sooner, and a lot more painfully. Molesters like that don't live long in prison.

So, it's a death penalty, either way. Which would you prefer?

[Forkboy]

43. You killing your own cows for those burgers?

:D

[11 Bravo]

45. No, but I'm not opposed to eating meat.

But thanks for playing.

[Forkboy]

46. You don't mind others doing your dirty work then?

Thank YOU for playing. :hi:

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

53. I don't mind others doing the dirty work.

I accept this. However, when it comes down to it, would I still kill that cow if I wanted a nice juicy burger and some tasty flank steak?

I sure as Hell would.

Still don't like the Death Penalty, and still think what goes on in our prisons is appalling. Prison systems should be solely for those people who need to be out of our society, not for punishment. Those who actually need rehabilitation should be able to get it and still be part of society. The way our prisons are run and governed is awful.

[ret5hd]

5. I think there is wide consensus on the "emotional side" of the question...

The disagreement comes (i believe) from the ethical and logical sides of the application of the ultimate penaly by an imperfect system.

for the record, i am against the death penalty in all cases, even this one. but i do believe there are punishments that we can all agree are applicable.

[backscatter712]

6. I'll admit it - I fantasize.

Don't get me wrong - I'm completely against the death penalty. It's wrong, it takes innocent lives with the guilty, it fails to solve problems, it turns us into killers.

But dammit when I see a child molester doing some truly fucked up shit, then Stephen King's got nothing on me when it comes to violent imagery, when it comes to what I want to do to the bastards. See some of my posts in the other thread.

I won't actually condone doing it though. I fantasize about getting blood-soaked vengeance, but that doesn't mean I'll do it or support it.

[guitar man]

7. lock him up and throw away the key

and put him in a cell with a big mean mf'er. :grr:

[Iris]

8. It's an honest emotional reaction.

But we've got go get beyond emotional reactions in all areas of life so that we can act rather than react.

[BoneDaddy]

9. I want him

put to death as compassionately as I would put a rabid dog down

[melody]

10. I doubt anyone on that thread literally wanted to kill him

I certainly don't think the death penalty is appropriate in ANY case -- although I'd imagine the
inmates will take care of that matter on their own. I won't cry over him either.

Obviously, it's the old "I could kill that guy" ... well, of course you're not going to kill that guy.

I do want the bastard in prison so deep he'll never get out.

Another thing that really angers me is people using an open and vulnerable venting of honest, human emotion to grandstand and pontificate. And if we're going to talk about it openly and honestly, I would openly and honestly add that.

[BadgerLaw2010]

32. I'm pretty sure they did. And on a street, a group of people probably would kill him.

This sort of thing is so sickening and potentially so dangerous to your own offspring or future offspring that it makes people behave on a more "gut" level.

Frankly, killing it is logical, even without the hate and mob violence aspect.

I have almost no doubt that if this guy was dropped on a street with knowledge of what he did/is doing available that he would either be killed, or the people around him would give it a damn good try.

[Bright Eyes]

11. I'm against the death penalty no matter what.

Making an exception for this monster would make me a hypocrite/Republican :)

[JuniperLea]

12. Pick his brain

Lock him up with no possible way of getting out, and use him as a guinea pig for all the aspiring psychiatrists and psychologists to run tests on and thoroughly examine mentally and physically.

We need to learn more about freaks like this; we can't do that if we kill them. That only serves to make us as bad as they are.

[Avalux]

13. Locked up in solitary confinement until he dies on his own -

that's good enough for me. I think death is too easy for people like him. Putting him to death doesn't do anything for me....making him live years alone with his own thoughts does.

[Nutmegger]

16. I'm against the death penalty and cases like this NEVER cause to to waiver

from that position. In fact, it solidifies my anti-DP position.

This person, upon a trial and conviction, should be placed in prison. Hopefully in prison, the convicted will be treated humanely.

That means NO to prison rape. NO to torture. NO to any violence perpetuated against this person or anyone else. If some murderer wants to make a hero out of himself by raping an offender, then he should be prosecuted.

[SmokingJacket]

17. Emotionally, I'd like to smash him with a hammer myself.

Intellectually, I know that vigilantism is wrong, and doesn't lead to a just society. So, what I FEEL is irrelevent.

Same with the death penalty. If someone killed someone close to me, I would want them to fry. But that doesn't matter. The death penalty can never be imposed justly, and therefore has no place in our justice system.

[renie408]

18. I oppose the death penalty. On a visceral level, there are times when my gut reacts differently. But

my brain rules my gut. So, I am still opposed to the death penalty for rational reasons.

[ecstatic]

19. A quick execution is an act of mercy for such monsters

No different from the way we would put rabid animals to sleep. For me it's not about revenge, since I believe that death ends suffering.

[rateyes]

27. That is a well-thought out argument. nt

[Bucky]

20. I support the death penalty for clowns

freakin' bozos.

[Stinky The Clown]

39. How kind ....

[DemGa]

21. I say once you've got them in a cage

keep them there.

I don't see us moving into a truly progressive society continuing this barbaric practice. Lets grow up people.

[kdmorris]

22. The emotional side of all this...

That's WHY I'm against the death penalty. Do I want that guy to suffer and die? You betcha. I'm a human being. If that was my daughter, would I want to kill him myself? Damn straight. I'm a human being. I'm imperfect and flawed and emotional and all the other things that go into being a human being. I have feelings and I make mistakes.

But the law is not supposed to be a human being. It's not supposed to be illogical and emotional. It's supposed to be fair. It's supposed to dispense justice and it's supposed to be blind. As long as there is the chance of executing ONE innocent person, that's too much. When the law "makes a mistake" it's fatal for someone whose life can never be brought back. As long as it is unfairly administered (more minorities than whites on death row) and prone to mistake, it should NOT be used. And the problem is.. because the law is interpreted by humans, it will always be imperfect and unfairly administered.

[theNotoriousP.I.G.]

23. His name is Chester!

he deserves to die for that alone.

Just kidding.

I struggle with cases like this too but intellectually, I know the death penalty is wrong on all counts, no matter who the victims are.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[porphyrian]

29. I believe killing people is wrong except in self-defense.

Thus, I believe killing a captured criminal is also wrong. Human-designed systems are too flawed to include punishments that can't be taken back.

[Jed Dilligan]

30. I'm not against We the People killing people,

if it is effective in deterring great risks to our well-being.

Executing pedophiles, psychotics, and incompetents deters nothing.

Executing corrupt businessmen and politicians would be a great deterrent.

[renie408]

33. LOL...n/t

[aikoaiko]

34. no justice, no peace.

[AnneD]

35. I don't oppose the death penalty...

especially because of some cases like this. Some folks-for what ever reasons are like rabid dogs and cannot be safely integrated into society or safely with held from society. I would kill a rabid animal that attacked my family and I would have no hesitation in doing the same for a molestor. Those deeds are beyond the pale of humanity.

Now there are some crimes that recieve the death penalty now that I think don't deserve it-but some crimes are so heinous-I can't think of anything more just. Crimes against humanity should be punishable by death. Attacking and or killing a child is a crime against humanity.

[mudesi]

36. Liberals don't support capital punishment

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Capital punishment is a conservative "value".

[WildEyedLiberal]

37. When I found myself saying that more than once or twice,

I realized I should just not be a hypocrite and say that I don't oppose the death penalty on principle.

I do, however, have serious, serious problems with the way it's administered in the US and as such support a moratorium on most capital sentences until the ridiculous social justice disparity of the application of the death penalty is resolved. If we JUST executed monsters like rapist/murderers and serial killers, people whose guilt is overwhelmingly documented by hard evidence, then that would be one thing, but that's not what happens in this country right now unfortunately.

[Irishonly]

38. I Against The Death Penality Even For That Sack Of Shit

He must never get out and I wouldn't care if he was isolated from people the rest of his life. He wouldn't last in the general population. There needs to be a punishment that fits for the rest of his miserable life.

[MazeRat7]

40. Locked up for life is punsihment, far worse than the escape afforded by death- IMHO /nt

[Prophet 451]

41. I don't oppose the death penalty

In principle, I think that in certain, very extreme and thankfully rare cases, the death penalty is necessary to protect society. A few people are simply so dangerous that, as a society, we cannot take the chance that they could ever be loose again, no matter how remote that chance is. If they escape, are released (either on their own or as part of a peace deal as happened with some IRA terrorists) or are somehow broken out, they will kill again. In the case of Hussein, there was also the danger that he would continue to direct matters from behind bars (as mobsters occasionally do). Granted, cases so clear, where the evidence is so overwhelming are rare and I would actually be rather pleased if the penalty was reserved for cases where the evidence is that overwhelming.

That said, I support the death penalty in principle. The way it is often used in practice makes me shudder. The racial disparity, inhumane methods and most of all, the glee some take in executing a criminal is disturbing. While it's sometimes necessary to put a criminal to death, it should always be done humanely, after due process of law and we should always remember that it is a monsterous thing we do which makes monsters of us all. If we must be monsters for a time, we must never forget how to be something else. Putting someone to death is a terrible necessity, not an opportunity for celebration.

I think for many, their reaction to the death penalty is emotional. I touched upon how one may be emotionally in support of the penalty above but I think it's also true that one may be emotionally against the death penalty. The monsterousness of it makes many recoil (and that's NOT a criticism). Others, such as my SO, have deep-seated moral objections and that's something I can respect. The truth is, most of us have very few inviolate principles. One or two perhaps but the rest are always subject to re-evaluation. For example, I am morally opposed to torture but there is the occasional case that makes me wish I were not. The one that tempts me most is where a convicted killer, sometimes even an admitted killer, refuses to tell the family where the body is. I'll admit there's a part of me that wants to say "hurt them until they give up the body". I don't, because once you open that door, you can never close it again but the urge is there all the same.

I think most of us operate on two levels: The higher brain and the reptile brain (purely arbitrary labels). The higher brain can disdain the death penalty, on moral or philosophical grounds but the reptile brain doesn't know or understand that, it is emotion driven and instinctual. When a crime occurs which shocks us enough, the reptile brain can occasionally break through the blanket we usually keep it smothered with. The higher brain says "I oppose the death penalty" but the reptile brain chips in "except for cases like this".

That's what I think, anyway.

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

42. During one of our recent torture debates ...

During one of our recent torture debates I heard an argument on TV where one man said that torture was okay, but only for really bad people in special circumstances. His opponent said:

"When we decided that our system doesn't allow torture it was understood by everyone that we were talking about bad people and special circumstances. We don't need the Constitution to tell us not to torture Doris Day."

I can't see much point in opposing the death penalty "except for really bad people." Who the hell supports the death penalty for nice people?

[Forkboy]

44. Still against it.No exceptions.

The fact that we may consider it tempting in the first place should be the first red flag, unless we're going to stop calling it "justice" and call it what it really is. "Revenge".

[AlCzervik]

47. i'm against the death penalty because i think there are far worse punishments than death

and the fact that i'm ok with that in certain circumstances bothers me. I'm human, i have flaws.

[Ariana Celeste]

48. I hate seeing that.

You are either against the death penalty or you're not.

Myself, I am 100% against it. I don't give a damn who it is, or what their alleged crime is.

a) Innocent people have been put to death for crimes they haven't committed. Where is the justice in that?

b) Killing a person for the crimes they commit doesn't undo the crime, ever. It just hurts more people.

c) Death is not a fucking punishment. It is a release.

[LWolf]

49. I oppose the death penalty on principle.

It has nothing to do with the offender, or the specific act that he/she is convicted of.

It is a principle: Violence is wrong, killing for revenge is wrong, corporal punishment is wrong, and trying to justify any of the above is wrong.

I don't need to make myself an offender of principle in order to punish an offender of the law or of human rights.

I fully support locking people up and throwing away the key when they have committed an atrocity upon another. It's not about punishment or revenge, it's about protecting their potential future victims.

Justice should not be about punishment or revenge, either. It's about protection when necessary, and restitution when possible.

[ulysses]

50. I think people misunderstand opposition to the death penalty.

I'm flatly opposed. That doesn't mean that I can't imagine myself beating to death the kind of cretin that preys on children - and I can't say that I wouldn't try if someone hurt my son - but that's an emotional thing. Opposition to the death penalty is based in the fact the we are a nation of (supposedly rational) laws, and not of emotional lynch mobs. The flash of desire to spend ten minutes alone with some heinous motherfucker and a crowbar is not, to my mind, an exception to the idea that a government that can't reliably protect the integrity of the national vote probably shouldn't be in the business of killing citizens.

[MedleyMisty]

51. I'm always against it

I just can't seem to muster up the hate and vengeance that other people can, and thinking of taking a life makes me feel all dirty and sick and wrong inside - which is why I try to avoid threads about the Heinous Crime of the Week, because they don't do much to help my issues with misanthropy and I usually feel a need to take a shower after wading through all that hate and ugly violent vengeance imagery.

I can't help but imagine being on death row and waiting to be killed by the state, or being a family member of someone who's killed by the state.

Why can't we just lock the guy up?

And why is it that people say that if you don't want to roast the testicles of the perpetrator you obviously don't care about the victims and their families? What does one have to do with the other and why do people think that not feeling a need to torture and/or kill the perpetrator is mutually exclusive with feeling deep compassion and empathy for his victims?

I was sexually abused as a kid but it wasn't even a fourth as severe as what that girl went through. I hope that she gets all the help that she needs and that she recovers. I wish peace on all who are involved.

[treestar]

52. The reasons I oppose it have nothing to do with the crime

and everything to do with the problem of the determination of who did it and what they did.

If you were God and knew for certain, sure. But for us, it doesn't matter what the accusation is. A conviction is only as good as the evidence. Look at the people who have been removed from death row after the ability to take DNA came out and they were cleared. And we will never be gods and never have any way to be absolutely certain.

Granted when the penalty is of a lesser sort, we can afford more mistakes, but with this penalty, I don't think there should be any mistakes. Since we are human and can't not have mistakes, I say we never do it.

[flvegan]

54. The death penalty is revenge, not punishment. I'm against it in every situation.

[Lucinda]

55. When I say it...it represents exactly what it says

I am anti-death penalty, but at times I am exposed to something so awful that for a moment, I don't want to share the planet that individual any longer. Then it passes.

Making the statement allows me to express the feeling I'm having, and acknowledges that I understand how people can support the death penalty.

[Hosnon]

56. I think by qualifying with "generally", the "but" is unnecessary.

Unless to provide a specific example.

As for what you asked: I am opposed for two reasons. (1) Death is a permanent punishment and (2) Truth is not the sole concern of the justice system.

To hand down such a punishment, we must be certain of a person's guilt. That is not possible. Live in prison (actual) works for me.