I am a leftist. Liberals fear me more than they fear the right wing.

[scarletwoman]

Liberals will fall all over themselves to vilify the left, because only the left actually outright challenges their worldview. Liberals can live with the rightwinger worldview, because it frames reality in basically the same way as liberals. That makes it simple -- as long as you agree on the essential frame, it's no big whoop to argue about particular details and tactics within that frame.

But leftists argue against the very frame itself. And it drives liberals nuts.

sw

[HereSince1628]

1. Left like Trotsky? Or Left like Thom. Jefferson?

Just wondering. The left is damned big place.

[scarletwoman]

4. Nah, left like anti-war, anti-corporatist, anti-imperialist, anti-militarist.

I never studied Trotsky, Jefferson was a slaveholder.

I mean left like Emma Goldman, W.E.B. Dubois, Eugene Debs, Angela Davis, Chomsky, Zinn, Gore Vidal, Naomi Wolf, Chris Floyd.

sw

[defendandprotect]

51. That's all good . . . what's the problem?

[scarletwoman]

55. The problem is, "liberals" will SAY they agree with this stuff, but then they turn around & support

politicians who do stuff like vote for the Kyle/Lieberman amendment and bankruptcy "reform", etc.

It's a whole lot bigger than that, however.

sw

[liberaldemocrat7]

64. If you mean extreme left as in communism, yes I oppose communism.

But the right does not own capitalism, in fact the right ruins and misuses capitalism and gives capitalism a bad name.

Ben and jerry could give the Republicans lessons in capitalism.

I have 2 quotes that I say about communists and Republicans.


"Castro No! Republicanismo No!"


"We will put republican economics on the very ash heap of history as we put communism."

[Greyhound]

76. Ben and Jerry were forced out of their own company by capitalists.

You might have noticed that their ice cream sucks now.

[whistle]

147. Capitalists or Hedge Fund predators? The latter have one mindset

....raise the price, lower the quality, loot the assets and then move on to the next plum to prey on.

[ooglymoogly]

140. what the pukes are doing is about as much like capitalism

as Robbinhoods doppleganger.

[AdHocSolver]

120. Liberals, unlike the Left and the Right, lack the courage to stick up for what they profess...

to believe. The Right will stick to their guns no matter how wrong-headed they may be. This looks to other right-wingers like "leadership". Couple this pig-headedness with self-righteousness and a make-no-compromises, win-at-any-cost mentality, and you have the psychological profile of the Right.

The Left types are also pig-headed in their beliefs, but they are less dogmatic than the Right on many issues. For example, the right will insist that tax breaks for the rich will stimulate the economy and provide prosperity for everyone. Evidence to the contrary will not sway your Right-type that this may not be true.

The Left see betrayal in progressive politicians compromising with conservatives on some issues. Left-types look only for complete purity in beliefs and actions, irrespective of political reality. An example is the vehemence with which some Leftists here have attacked Senator Russ Feingold when he made some compromises that were politically necessary, but failed to meet the Left's purity standards.

Liberals will take a stand and then change their minds when challenged on their opinions. "Maybe they were wrong." "Let's see what the polls show." "Run this position by a focus group and see how it plays." "Let's ask a consultant."

Right-types will never admit they were wrong, because they are stubborn asses, who are more interested in having their way than they are in being correct. Leftist-types are most interested in conforming to an ideal that is consistently pure, rather than correct.

Liberals lack the ability to think through their positions and defend them against criticism or evidence to the contrary. It isn't purity of thought that they demand, and it isn't that they must always have their way. Liberals can't make up their minds what positions to defend, or how to defend them. So liberals appear to be "flip-floppers". In any event, Liberals do not project confidence or leadership.

The Congress should have attached a time-table for withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq to the military appropriations bill. However, they couldn't guarantee an ability to override a veto, so they "froze" and did nothing. This showed lack of confidence in the correctness of their position, and a fear of Bush and the right-wing Republicans. The Congress should have sent a time-table in the bill and let him veto it.

I bet that if the Republicans would have seen some backbone in the Democrats, enough of them would have voted with the Democrats to override a veto. The Republicans who would agree to override would be crazy to commit to override a Bush veto IN ADVANCE, if they thought that the Democrats would capitulate. Why open themselves up to Bush/Cheney's wrath, if the Democrats wouldn't commit to see this venture through.

If we could find enough thoughtful, confident, pragmatic progressives, like Russ Feingold, to put in Congress and the Presidency, then we could turn this country around and make it great.

[truedelphi]

134. Liberals (And leftists) generally do not frame the issues that they hold dear to

Inside easy to digest slogans - they have four minute definitions that don't carry the message effectively on TV or in debates with Repugs.

Repugs have marvelous and simple sound bites like Reagan's "There you go again." which is basically meaningless but defeated Jimmy Carter in the debates of 1980.

[ooglymoogly]

143. Beg to differ

Speaking directly of this site when liberals and progressives (people searching for truth and justice) begin to complain too much about democrats who vote for things like FISA and the Lieberman-Kyle amendment, a few DLC types start alerting and calling for the thread to be blocked and even though there might be way over a hundred recs and a few hundred responses venting anger at the traitors the mods clutch their pearls and fall on the swooning couch and the thread gets blocked and wiped from the front page. So If we seem week that may be a large part of the reason.

[ooglymoogly]

144. and yes some of us even understand the power of words

and how similar words and adjectives strung together can mean something insignificant or something very important or something altogether different by just the choice of a word or words. The pukes have the soap box, owning the press and all, so they get to frame most issues making the other side appear weak and that is our biggest challenge. Fortunately things appear to be changing.

[truedelphi]

165. OoglyMoogly - I am not talking about this board necessarily.

I have been around Democratic candidates running for office and they will look at what their opponents are saying and then they will say, "How do I refute all that in a single sound byte?"

And like I said above, all you need to do is borrow the Reagan phrase in order to change the state of the opponent and grab the attention of the oponent.
"There you go" again is brilliant. It grabs the attention away from the speaker and makes out that they are a whiney bully.
And then after you have center stage, explain the fine print details.

[orpupilofnature57]

2. Just posted ' Leftist ' is the figment of a journalist Convenience.

Your talking about Democrats that vilify Liberals.Abbie hoffman ,jerry Reuben were Dubbed Leftists but they were Anarchists.

[scarletwoman]

9. Yes, the media accuses Democrats of being "leftists", when they are no such thing.

I'd be thrilled if the Democratic party was a leftist organization, but it most certainly is NOT. The rightwingers are full of shit, as always.

sw

[leftchick]

127. they call hillary a liberal!

There is NOTHING liberal about her. I believe the M$M has redefined the word for us and now all REAL Liberals are Leftists? Talk about marginalizing. :(

[truedelphi]

135. You think us liberals are seen as leftists? Here's the media's wish:

After loading up a soccer van of kids to take to the park, I packed in my
rocket launcher and some pamphlets translated from Che Guevarra's original
Spanish into English instructions on bombing the City Council and Town hall
buildings.

Then I went and packed explosives around the fountain in the center of town.

The media hopes and expects that the term "leftist" will resonate with the
above images inside the viewer's mind. If not in the conscious mind, then
in the realm of the sub-conscious.

[scarletwoman]

159. I know, it just kills me. On the other hand, let the self-proclaimed "liberals" own her.

It just marks the difference between left and liberal that much more clearly.

A true lefty will never vote for a miliarist/corporatist/globalist/New World Order Free-Trader. Why would we? Those are the things we are in a fight to the death with. Why would we help elect someone who will continue and strengthen these things?

It's already quite obvious that the masses have essentially no voice in our government as it is -- the only power left to us at this point is the power to register our approval or disapproval through our votes.

I will not cast my vote for what I don't want.

sw

[fenriswolf]

3. signature says it all

[scarletwoman]

5. I certainly hope so. I consider it my duty as a sentient being to fight evil. (nt)

[Breeze54]

6. The Democratic left are the liberals!

:P

The term "Leftists" sounds like the Soviet Union.

The left is the liberal side of the Democratic Party, imho.

[scarletwoman]

31. See, that's what really blows my mind. I grew up during the Cold War -- born 1949.

The term "Leftists" sounds like the Soviet Union.

I NEVER thought of the Soviet Union as "the left". I only thought of them as an a totalitarian, authoritarian police state. So did all the adults I knew. Nobody but the Power Elite promoted the "Soviets=Leftist" meme, as far as I know -- I really never heard the terms "left" and "right" in those days.

My experience of the left is a postmodern experience entirely rooted in U.S. culture. I am a college dropout, an old hippie and Vietnam war protestor. I never studied Marx, I studied Camus and the Upanishads.

I am, as clearly as I can, merely recounting my own observations, collected over 5+ decades.

sw

[JackRiddler]

47. Wow o wow.

It must hurt to be a brainwashing victim.

[stranger81]

7. I'm with you, scarletwoman.

Left like Trotsky, not Jefferson, and proud of it.

[Odin2005]

11. You mean "left" like the USSR?

:wtf:

[stranger81]

12. nope, they certainly were not Trotskyites . . . .

More like a Democratic Socialist.

[Riktor]

73. Not Quite

The USSR was authoritarian socialist. They outlawed all political parties except their own, and the level of commitment to economic controls was decided by the state, not by the people. Democratic Socialism is the polar opposite. Many political parties are permitted, allowing the constituents to decide, through the democratic process, how many socialist programs to enact.

[Odin2005]

106. You think the USSR was democratic? Are you nuts?

:wtf:

[stranger81]

126. don't know who said the USSR was democratic, but it sure

wasn't me. Try reading more carefully.

[JanMichael]

133. Equally not. Although there was more turnover in the politburo...

...than there is in our congress. So goes the story.

Personally I'm in the Periclesian democracy camp. Better that than autocracy and aristocracy.

By lot not bought.

[scarletwoman]

16. Read my post #4. (nt)

[JackRiddler]

49. Get the Commies! Exterminate the brutes! n/t

[defendandprotect]

53. USSR was totalitarian . . . . . dictatorship.... doesn't count ---

[scarletwoman]

56. No I don't. And anyone who actually has a clue knows that. (nt)

[JVS]

62. Is that a problem for you?

[Greyhound]

63. The Soviet Union was never leftist, they were just another totalitarian dominator

that was labeled left by the American totalitarians to discredit the leftist movement that survived the war.

[Telly Savalas]

8. Leftists are so far removed from anything resembling power in the U.S.

it's hard to imagine why anybody would fear them.

The right-wing on the other hand has been running this country to varying degrees for decades. That's who liberals fear.

[scarletwoman]

14. Yeah, you would think so. But who gets shit on from BOTH sides?

Yes, liberals really strongly dislike the right wing. But who they REALLY go after are the leftists.

Anne Coulter writing that she wished the highjacked airplanes of 9/11 had hit the New York Times building never merited a Senate resolution. Bill O'Reilly opining that San Fransisco should be hit by a terrorist attack never merited a Senate resolution condemning his reckless speech advocating the death of American civilians.

But let MoveOn suggest that the powers-that-be might be telling us less than the full truth, and watch all the good Democrats fall all over themselves to declare that they are APPALLED that anyone would be so impolite.

The Democratic party hates the left much more than they hate the right.

sw

[Telly Savalas]

29. Democrats who vote to censure MoveOn are assholes, not liberals.

The Democrats are laregly a center-right party with a handful of liberals and a few folks like Kucinich who straddle the line between liberalism and leftism.

[cali]

128. So Pat Leahy isn't a liberal?

Pat Leahy who voted against the IWR and against Supplementals, and who advocates cutting all funding for Iraq?

Leahy wrote and sponsored the Habeas Restoration Act, the War Profiteering Prevention Act, legislation restricting the sale of cluster bombs to Israel, has been classified as on the 10 most liberal members of the Senate for over 30 years, and has a liberal record on just about any issue you can think of.

And according to you, because of his vote on the offensive MoveOn resolution, he's an asshole, not a liberal?

Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Usrename]

137. I thought Lieberman had one of the most liberal voting records.

Lieberman was for all the liberal causes. Rated second or third "most liberal" senator. So what can you infer from that?

on edit> I guess it's John Kerry who is the second or third "most liberal" senator. In any event, Lieberman is now the "most liberal" senator in his party. :)

[ProudDad]

151. He obviously skipped some meds when this vote came around...

Everyone who voted for that asshole resolution is an asshole...

[Mr Rabble]

154. Leahy is a Democrat, not a liberal.

That much is really obvious. Further, he nowhere near a leftist.

With the sole exception of Bernie Sanders, the entirety of the Democratic members of the Senate are centrists- to varying degrees- within a very narrow spectrum.

[Greyhound]

71. Leftists are the only thing they both fear. It is the idea of nobody being control of anybody that

terrifies them. Thus the diminution and dismissal of it. You can kill a man, destroy a nation, or erase a culture, but there is nothing that can kill an idea.

[Odin2005]

10. I'm both a socialist/Leftist and a Liberal.

The notion that Liberal Democracy conflicts with Socialism is Marxist garbage.

[spag68]

50. This is close to where I am

Except add labor in front of liberal.

[Trajan]

13. You must be in a funk ....

I respect you greatly, but how can I honestly accept these statements ? .. Let's parse a few:

1) Liberals will fall all over themselves to vilify the left

Wow .... ALL Liberals are doing this ? ..... Most of them ??? ... MANY of them ? .... Half ? .... Some ? ... a Few ? ..... an infinitesimally SMALL number of them ? .... I mean, Cmon: There is no qualification of value here ... Taken directly from your statement, we must presume your claim is that ALL Liberals do this, yet we know from experience this is not true .... We must automatically question the foundation of your assertion if THIS is the basis .....

2) Liberals can live with the rightwinger worldview, because it frames reality in basically the same way as liberals

What is a right winger worldview ? .... Yeah: I know 'We know it when we see it', but if we drill into it, can we define which hallmarks they possess ? ..... IF we cannot, then how can you compare ? ... by what criteria would you find parallels ? .... Are they exclusively political aspects ? ... social ? ... economic ? .... educational ? .... what ?

IS it your argument that ALL Liberals think EXACTLY as RWers do ? ... If this were true: Wouldnt Liberals and RWers discover all of those things they have in common, and turn to SUPPORTING each other's goals instead ? .... Is it your claim that Liberals DO support the Right Wing goals ? .. How so ? .... Which goals do they share in common ? ....

I find that, across the board, Liberals share nearly NONE of the primary goals of conservatives ...... except for accidental facts, such as both liking coffee ... or hating broccoli ... or enjoying a sunday drive, or a walk on the beach at sunset ....

In order to make this stick, you will have to SHOW that this is true .... merely mouthing the words is not enough ....

3) That makes it simple -- as long as you agree on the essential frame, it's no big whoop to argue about particular details and tactics within that frame.

I presume when you speak of a 'frame', you refer to an established political construct. For instance: trying to get public policy instituted by progressing through the steps in congress. THAT would be a frame, whereas the actual policy in question would be irrelevant, and where the STEPS taken form a framework of action are identical for either side .....

Isnt this much like saying that Liberals and RWers all have two legs, and place one leg in each side of their pants ? .... that BOTH breathe oxygen ? ..... In other words: Aren't some elements of a frame unavoidable ? .... We are all human ... We most all have children .... we most all went to school, drive to work, save for college (if possible) .. Live on earth ... spinning around a star .... etc etc ... You get the picture ....

There are some elements of existence that we cannot avoid existing within the same frame ... so therefore, you MUST define which frame you are referring to, because otherwise your assertion is vague and ambiguous ....

This is what I assume you intend: You are saying that Liberals do not intend to withdraw from this form of government in order to implement the policies for which they aspire ... and are unwilling to go to the 'next step' and commit to a revolution that overturns the frame that all parties have operated within ... To which, presumably, Leftists ARE willing to overturn that 'status quo', and therefore succeed in implementing their goals by bypassing the 'frame' under which the other parties operate ....

Please explain: .... Your comments are too vague, and perhaps mean more inside your head than outside of it .....

[scarletwoman]

19. You're probably quite correct.

Your comments are too vague, and perhaps mean more inside your head than outside of it .....

Although, in my defense, I had some hope that there would be a few who read my post who would get it. I figured I'd go ahead and take the risk.

sw

[The Magistrate]

61. If You Will Permit Me, Ma'am, To Attempt Some Clarafication For My Friend Marcus Ulpius

My understanding of your meaning when speaking of 'the essential frame' you view as shared by liberals and rightists is that that frame is the economic order of Capitalism, and the various social arrangements this dictates. This is true enough, so far as it goes. Liberals do not seek a revolutionary change in this order, but rather some alterations in its workings that will reduce its inequities and iniquities, in the hope of making things somewhat better for most people. Rightists, on the other hand, seek to heighten and sharpen these inequities and iniquities, in the conviction this will make things even better for them, whatever it does to most people. Those differences in purpose do strike me as sufficient, however, to constitute a great difference in character, even in kind.

There are some sound reasons for not aligning with a press for revolutionary change. It is an unfortunate fact of history that revolutions do not often come off well. While persons growing up in the period of the Cold War in the United States may have come to see nothing 'left' about Communism, no one in left circles from the time of Marx up to the successful establishment of Lenin's dictatorship in Russia had any doubt the Bolsheviks were leftists, and left revolutionaries, and indeed the only successful left revolutionaries to date. Even through Stalin and into the days of Kruschev most considered the Communists to be leftist; certainly the French and Italian Communist Parties, that regularly got a sixth tp a fifth of their countries vote, had their voters convinced they were leftist parties.

The Socialist movement from its start in the mid-nineteenth century has been split between those who felt revolution was the only path, and those who felt that the organs of democratic government could be turned to the advantage of the mass, and this split has been deep and bitter. Modern liberalism has grown out of the latter tendency, and seeks to use the state as a means to secure a more equitable distribution of the goods produced by society, the things denounced by reactionaries as 'the welfare state'. This is in effect a sort of jury-rig socialism, that can be seen in fuller development in major European countries, and that President Roosevelt's New Deal was a first step towards here.

[scarletwoman]

66. Dear Magistrate, you will always have my permission to clarify, it is your great gift.

And, honestly, I am no one from whom permission need be sought in any case.

Yes, to a great degree, the "essential frame" I refer to is the capitalist economic order. I'm not sure that that is all of it, however. U.S. politics is so murky -- when it comes right down to it, there is so little agreement on the meaning of things, that it renders rational discussion nearly impossible.

I AM anti-capitalist, but I'm in no way a communist. Communisn has always seemed to be too much a statist system -- and I am in no way a statist.

I suppose it was verbally lazy and irresponsible of me to compose my OP as I did. "Liberal", Left", "Communist", "Socialist" -- do any of these terms have any fundamental meaning anymore?

What I DO know is that I am utterly anti-Empire, anti-militarism, anti-police state. And I see far too much of the allegedly "liberal" Democratic party not only doing nothing to fight these things, but outright enabling them. And when I am told that I must support the Party over all other considerations -- by self-identified "liberals" -- well, then, I feel I must take a stand and declare that I am not one of them.

sw

[The Magistrate]

79. Your Kind Words Are Much Appreciated, Ma'am

It is unfortunately true that our country's political life is murky as a muddied pond. When all is said and done, most people, including many who consider themselves politically aware and active, have little grasp of politics and the economic and social undergirdings of it. Worse, it has long been a chief tool of political leadership in this country to manipulate this ignorance, and even enhance it. This is an inevitable development in a polity which has both a near-universal suffrage and an economic system that concentrates the bulk of its wealth in a very few hands: if people had, and kept, a clear eye to their own best interests, they would vote great changes in how things are arranged, and those who benefit most from the actual state of affairs understandably make it their business to prevent this. Emotionalism and sentimentality, compounded by ignorance, are apt means to that end.

[scarletwoman]

89. "...they would vote great changes in how things are arranged, and those who benefit most from the

actual state of affairs understandably make it their business to prevent this."

Dear me, Sir, you sound like a raving revolutionary! ;) (forgive me)

You've really put your finger on what I was endeavoring to convey in my OP -- the difference between those who accept the status quo as the fundamental immutable paradigm, and those who reject the paradigm altogether.

The only revolution I'm advocating is one of perception. We cannot change anything until we change how we perceive and think about the world around us. And I cannot fathom how anyone would not at least recognize that fundamental changes are needed.

Of course, it is a strong human tendency to resist change...

Best wishes,
sw

[The Magistrate]

104. It Is A Fairly Well Kept Secret, My Friend....

But that development has been the nightmare of the political classes in this country from its inception. The debates of the Founders are pocked and pitted with it: the fear that the people would vote themselves out from under the domination of creditors, and turn the engine of the state against large holdings of wealth and property. A great many of the men bearing muskets against the red-coats thought that that was exactly what they were fighting for when they stood to fire and got off three rounds per minute themselves. It took a good deal of forgotten violence in the early years of the Republic to demonstrate to them otherwise, and the matter has remained simmering underneath it all down the centuries. The form of government does make it possible of achievement, and a tremendous weight of social mythos and worse is required to keep this from transpiring....

[scarletwoman]

118. It seems to me that one of our primary duties is to reveal this "secret" to any and all

who will hear and listen -- which is, unfortunately, as yet a very few.

It's a global problem now. The murdered demonstrators in Burma are truly and literally dying for our freedom.

Those who are unable to recognize that, who are unable to recognize the global forces that have declared war on we common human beings -- they are not helping...

sw

[Trajan]

82. So very well spoken, as usual ....

Good to see you out and about, old friend .... and still possessed of all the good faculties ... How wonderful to see you ....

You so eloquently state the case, and identify precisely the elements I saw in the OP, but laid out more clearly so all can see what arguments are in play ... I am too rash, and 'cut to the chase' too impatiently to bring much light to these questions, and instead prefer to strike at rudimentary logical faults to question the foundation of the such assertions. You, on the other hand, with a well known thirst for knowledge, and the ability to actually acquire and maintain that body of knowledge, can open the questions more broadly, and elucidate the complexities much more completely .... Thank you for that, Magistrate ...

That is precisely the difference in 'frame' I supposed the OP was alluding to, and I can see how the now age old tensions between the old cadre spill openly into OUR arguments, perhaps brought on by the stress of the times, and the seeming desperation of the moment.

When the whole coalition between 'left' and 'liberal' cannot seem to make progress swimming upstream against those who would do their utmost to thwart even the smallest gains sought by a moderate consensus, it is inevitable that that coalition, our coalition, would sag under the weight of that failure to succeed, and the stresses formed between the different sides would eventually foment into schism. I am of a Liberal mindset, and yet I could NEVER see any agreement between my own principles and those of conservatives, because I don't consider the 'frame', I.E., the current form of representative government, as the real impediment to success.

I blame first; our own lack of initiative against difficult political foes who would resort to ANY devious methods to halt OUR success ; We fail to persuade .... We need conviction to have courage from conviction .... Sometimes I wonder if ANYONE believes a political philosophy, other than grab as much as you can .... It seems pitiful to me ....

Secondly; I blame an unfair election process that MUST be restored to allow an honest appraisal from the bottom of the top ... Election cheats kill democracy, because those who SHOULD be held to account at the ballot box are allowed to instead continue whatever schemes and machinations that have subverted the governing process, and allowed them to enrich themselves at the public expense.

I completely understand how the 'Left' chafes against a 'frame' that allows OUR elected representatives to deny their own constituents a voice by ignoring their pleas, but I'm not sure we should be throwing in the towel just yet .... It is too early to call the Democratic 'experiment' a failure because a plurality of those in government have clogged the halls of power with their own greed and vanity ..... I blame our OWN representatives for their weakness and lack of spine. But I see it correcting ..... not soon enough for personal satisfaction, but soon enough to save the social contract of Locke, Hobbes, Paine and Jefferson ....

But the strain is large, due in large part to the awful consequences of the malfeasance of the current administration .... I hope that our coalition can hold together under the strain, and pull through intact ..... Perhaps I am too optimistic .... What reason have I for that ? .... I really DONT know .....

This much I recognize: Opening the Pandora's box of Revolution can provide the other side an opportunity as well .... That rigid 'frame' also contains THEIR ambitions ..... and we know we have seen the effects of Dystopian visions in history already ..... I would not let THAT tiger out of its cage willingly ....

GOOD to see you, Sir .... Please stay healthy for a very long time .....

[Greyhound]

87. You had better be at the next meeting.

I know I failed to show last month, but we have got to have this out face to face.


BTW, please remind me to to print this out or else my early onset senility will prevent my recollection of what outraged me tonight.:rofl:

:hi:

[Trajan]

97. I will be available for the kicking .....

I recall reading that Randy Kraft, a vicious serial killer in CA, had to go to the emergency room because he had hurt himself while kicking one of his victims to death .....

Something to keep in mind .....

I know I possess an pollyannish view of the New Deal, Great Society stuff ...... and we have discussed it before .... I am open to further education, of course, over a few pitchers ......

BRING Cerridwen !

[Greyhound]

103. Damn, but I'll try. The adjustment has been really hard for her,

We'll talk later.

[The Magistrate]

98. Glad To Be Of Help, My Friend

My personal views are more to left than many would credit, but life has taught me to temper desire with calculation of what can actually be got with the means to hand, and that things not just can but probably will go wrong in all kinds of unexpected ways.

But it seems to me that we have no option but a strategy of Popular Front, and a union of all who are to the slightest degree to leftwards of the worst elements of reaction, the free-marketeers and the religious obscurantists and the racialists. And we have no field to fight on but that of electoral politics, and no means to achieve any goal but putting into office people who are beholden to us for the votes that empower them. In such a coalition, pressing such an endeavor, each faction, every stripe, must be aware it will not get its whole desire, and must compromise with the others to get a portion of what it wants.

[Trajan]

101. Ah .... Consensus .....

No one is happy .... No one is dead ....

As life should be, I suppose ....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

129. Folks Need To Operationalize Their Terms

I read Charles Lindblom's "Politics And Markets" in grad school... In it he argues for a planned economy and opines that "the future belongs to those who plan." But before he makes his argument for a planned economy he confronts the fact there has not been one nation that has had both a socialist economy and a democratic political system.


Folks will bring up the U K, France, West Germany, or even Sweden but they are still essentially capitalist economies with a robust welfare state...

[HughMoran]

83. Thanks for spending the time to point out the obvious BS in this thread

I think it's hilarious how some folks throw out rhetoric like this to get attention.

It's working too, but at what cost?

[Name removed]

90. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[loudsue]

100. You've been around here long enough to know that Scarletwoman

has never "thrown out rhetoric"..."to get attention". You're the one that needs to get a brain, moran. Your post is a perfect example of what she's talking about.

I totally agree with her.

[scarletwoman]

107. Loudsue! Wonderful to see you!

Thank you so much for your kind words!

I don't know what possessed me to start a thread, something I do very rarely. I guess I just went momentarily crazy after reading one too many Hillary Clinton threads in GD...

:blush:
sw

[loudsue]

119. It's great to see you, too, Scarletwoman!

And I couldn't agree more with your OP. The Hillary threads are like a kick in the gut to me, as well, and simply watching what has been going down with our congresscritters...
We need Malcom X to resurrect himself SOON!

:grouphug:

[renie408]

15. I ain't scare of no stinkin' leftist. n/t

[scarletwoman]

20. So, are you saying you're not a liberal?

:D

[renie408]

23. Nah...I am getting punch drunk. Too much DU, too little sleep. n/t

[rucky]

17. and Miracle Whip fears Mayonaise.

just labels.

[renie408]

18. HAH...Everybody knows that Mayonnaise kicks Miracle Whip's ass. n/t

[rucky]

21. that's it. we're throwing down!

you make a potato salad, and I'll make a potato salad. We'll see how long we can leave them out in the sun before one of us gets sick.

[renie408]

24. Honey, I am from THE SOUTH! There ain't no way food left out in the heat is going to

get me. I have been inured to its effects from birth.

Hah. Like I could be felled by bad potato salad. I SCOFF at your challenge, YANKEE!!


(and I know you are a Yankee because no self-respecting southerner would make potato salad with Miracle Whip)

[rucky]

30. ahh, but I've been taking gradually larger doses of preservatives

since I was a child, and have built up an immunity to xanthan gum in quantities that would send you cryin' for your mammy all the way back to Tara.

Preservatives. That's how we roll in Ohio.

[renie408]

32. Sweetie, have you ever checked the ingredient list on a Moon Pie??

In what fantasy do you think you have gotten higher doses of preservatives than somebody born and raised in the Deep South?

Just give it up and acknowledge that you have been bested in the food poisoning arena.

[scarletwoman]

35. OMG! You two are TOTALLY crackin' me up!!!! A thousand thank yous!

I'm laughing my ass off -- and believe, me, I TOTALLY need a lot less ass.

:rofl:
sw

[Greyhound]

84. I object! Though I hate both, Miracle Whip is similar to mayonnaise in color and consistency only.

There is a distinct difference and Miracle Whip has its place on turkey sandwiches and in coleslaw and Waldorf salads, but mayonnaise is simply a crime against taste.

[SayWhatYo]

93. only a freeper would say such a thing!!

:P

[Dollface]

150. Isn't Mayonnaise French?

[scarletwoman]

22. Miracle Whip sucks. Full of sugar and crap. Cheap substitute for quality.

Kind of like American liberals. :evilgrin:

[renie408]

26. On this we must agree. Not the liberals part, the Miracle Whip part. n/t

[scarletwoman]

36. Far out! See, this demonstrates the possibilites of finding common ground!

*sniff* It's so fuckin' beautiful, man...

sw

[renie408]

38. We mayo eaters need to stick together. n/t

[scarletwoman]

44. You don't mind that I'm Norwegian leftist from Minnesota? (nt)

[renie408]

48. I love you all the more for your differences. (I'm a democrat, remember??) n/t

[rucky]

27. We're better at Hackey Sack.

so go play your futbol, or whatever game that is you call it down there - with your big lawns and severed heads.

:P

[scarletwoman]

37. All your Hackey Sack are belong to us!!!!111

And I fart in your general direction!

[alittlelark]

25. I am a leftist as well

Socialized health care, schools, and retirements are just the start for me.

[cali]

28. Liberals can live with the rightwinger worldview?

Really, how interesting. And you include Al Gore in your list of kindred spirits? Funny as hell.

As someone else pointed out, you're exceedingly vage in your OP. What is the frame that that you argue against?

Honestly, get over yourself. I'm a liberal and if you think I have even the slightest fear of whatever it is you are, you're deluding yourself.

Could your OP even possibly reflect more self-absorbtion? Clue: You just ain't all that important.

[scarletwoman]

42. Of course I'm not important. I've never made any attempt to be. I'm one of the more anonymous of

those DUers who have been here for 7 years or so.

Perhaps my post was rather self-absorbed. I start very few threads here on DU, maybe once or twice or month. I mostly read -- and once in awhile I write comments on a thread or two. If, as you say, I am self-absorbed, it's in a rather circumspect way, wouldn't you say?

I have no idea why you brought up Al Gore in your opening sentence. I don't recall ever posting ANYTHING about Al Gore in the recent past, much less in my OP. I must sadly admit that I have no telepathic abilities, and so am unable to discern what you meant.

sw

[renie408]

45. Nah, you just don't have your head up your own ass because

you like the smell of yourself (and the sight of your erudite musings) so damn much.

Erudite musings have their place. But so do complete non sequiturs. So don't defend yourself. Screw 'em if they don't get it.


(see, I told you mayo eaters needed to stick together)

[scarletwoman]

52. Whoot! You said "non sequitors"! Non Sequitors are where it's at.

Any student of Star Trek knows that. It's what made the robot "Nomad" self-destruct! Long live non sequitors!

And Mayo!

sw

[renie408]

54. LOL...what she said. n/t

[Greyhound]

95. Just a noob with serious illusions of grander. n/t

[renie408]

43. I think you forgot "I know you are, but what am I??" n/t

[TahitiNut]

33. I'm a liberal. I have no fear of you. I don't "vilify the left."

I favor people above property, equity above privilege, and personal privacy above government secrecy.

:shrug: I subscribe to Rawls.

[ConsAreLiars]

34. Words have different meanings at different times and for different people - Ochs on "Liberal"

Love Me, I'm a Liberal
By Phil Ochs

I cried when they shot Medgar Evers
Tears ran down my spine
I cried when they shot Mr. Kennedy
As though I'd lost a father of mine
But Malcolm X got what was coming
He got what he asked for this time
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I go to civil rights rallies
And I put down the old D.A.R.
I love Harry and Sidney and Sammy
I hope every colored boy becomes a star
But don't talk about revolution
That's going a little bit too far
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I cheered when Humphrey was chosen
My faith in the system restored
I'm glad the commies were thrown out
Of the A.F.L. C.I.O. board
I love Puerto Ricans and Negros
As long as they don't move next door
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

The people of old Mississippi
Should all hang their heads in shame
I can't understand how their minds work
What's the matter don't they watch Les Crane?
But if you ask me to bus my children
I hope the cops take down your name
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I read New Republic and Nation
I've learned to take every view
You know, I've memorized Lerner and Golden
I feel like I'm almost a Jew
But when it comes to times like korea
There's no one more red, white and blue
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

I vote for the democtratic party
They want the U.N. to be strong
I go to all the Pete Seeger concerts
He sure gets me singing those songs
I'll send all the money you ask for
But don't ask me to come on along
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me, love me, I'm a liberal

From: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics/liberal.html

[scarletwoman]

46. LOL! Bingo! Those are EXACTLY the definitions that have in mind, Thanks. (nt)

[ConsAreLiars]

92. I encourage all "liberals" (and everyone else) to browse the Phil Ochs lyrics for a little wisdom.

http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/ochs/lyrics.html

And the few clips on youtube --> http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=phil+ochs&search=Search

[PATRICK]

39. Examine a contemporary different frame

In France there is a real socialist left and once a pretty sold Communist Party. The communists and the extreme right were like goons the mainstream left and right played around with as bogeymen or allies, depending. The Gaullists leeched off the Great General for as long as humanly possible. Real changes such as in labor or health resulted from the real left.

We have in effect one centrist party, the FDR Dems who lately have been shifting toward the right as the right lunges for the loons in desperate bids to gain and retain impossible legitimacy. The strata of label lies and Gingrich style definitions are buying into illusions. The Dems lunge toward the "left" ended with the replacement of Henry Wallace, FDR's personal pick, with Truman. In France they also had a "Democratic Party, lost like roadkill in the middle. They looked like our Dems, sounded like our Dems, and lost charmingly, like our Dems. Their head guy when I was there even looked physically like a mild form of a Kennedy. But they had a real left with real power to get social change. That "bi-partisan" shadow never got anywhere.

You can go back to ancient Athens and see variations of the themes, surprising differences, enlightening
mixtures. It might boil down to authoritarianism versus the will of the commons, or something else.

We have no "extreme left" worth this type of phony strawman posing. We have decent people fighting authoritarianism on a rampage to destroy democracy. We have the truth versus desperate lies and crime exposed. We have not begun to lift the lid off the pot that might contain popular demands for socialist goods like a rationale health care and basic infrastructure under the sole dominion of the civil society.

What are the ills we are proposing? War? Production of terrorists? Destroying nations? Destroying America? Betraying law and duty and honor and you name it? Egregious stomach wrenching lies and diversions? Anarchy? The people pointing the fingers at people asking for justice and sanity define themselves all too well and they deserve no name.

They deserve removal and imprisonment by a just government.

We can discuss mercy after. By "extreme" default of "leaders" we have a monopoly on it and a lot of other basic human treasures.

[qdemn7]

40. Liberals don't like Leftists

Because Leftists threaten their grip on power. It's that simple. America is a fairly Centrist country. We have never had a hard Left political party successful in any respect in the US. The Left is regarded as a bunch of utter and complete lunatics by many in this society. Conservatives and Rightists certainly think that way. Some Centrists think that way. So why shouldn't Leftists fear the Left? Politically, you do not succeed in this country by growing your base, you succeed by co-opting other groups. Unless Liberals adopt the positions of the Left, they are attacked by the Left. There is no way in hell that Liberals can co-opt Centrists or Conservatives by adopting Leftist positions.

[Hoof Hearted]

41. My first response is to ask what the hell you are talking about?

My second response? Pretty much the same thing.

[scarletwoman]

69. Well, at least you put two responses in one post! Much more efficient that way!

I never expected that many people would understand what I was saying, but I knew a few would. No biggie that you're not one of them.

[Hydra]

57. Oh, I totally get it

they want our support, but we're like dynamite- we could bring down this system and start all over again if enough of us get pissed enough. That's why the tell us to be quiet and behave ourselves...

That line of bull will last only as long as most of us are eating regularly...

[scarletwoman]

58. It's the "Iron Law of Institutions".

see:

sw

[Hydra]

132. That's part of it

Think of it as "what the system will bear." I see it as a calculated version of what he was talking about. "How much can we all get away with before hitting the tipping point?"

[stimbox]

59. I hear ya sister!

:applause:

[scarletwoman]

60. Thank you! Much appreciated! (nt)

[aikoaiko]

65. At DU, everyone thinks they are the shizzle.

:)

[scarletwoman]

68. I yam what I yam. (nt)

[yardwork]

67. I'm there with you, scarletwoman.

Most "liberals" aren't very left, in my experience.

[G_j]

70. hey!

that's right SW!

I've been waiting and working for an awakening too!

[scarletwoman]

74. Woo Hoo! G_j!!!! Thanks much!

:loveya:
sw

[G_j]

80. thanks for saying it so well

you spoke for me also.

the militaristic frame everyone, media, politicians, seem to be living in,
goes against all the good and just things I believe 'are' possible.

I fear that the time approaches, if it hasn't arrived already,
when we may have to say these things that 'were' possible.


:hug:

[scarletwoman]

110. I wish I COULD really "say it well". But I've pretty much given up.

I just got a wild hair up my ass and started a thread.

:7
sw

[G_j]

111. chuckle..

well, they are worthy thoughts anyway

:-)

[Greyhound]

72. I've been replying my way down the thread and I forgot to tell you how much I appreciate

your posting it in the first place.

Thank you.
:kick: & R

[scarletwoman]

77. Well, thank you! Your kind words are much appreciated in turn! (nt)

[entanglement]

75. Yeah, the very idea of being identified as a 'commie' is still anathema, isn't it

I posted *this* table in reply to the other thread, btw and I'd really appreciate some feedback.

[stranger81]

85. this chart is great and explains exactly why I consider myself a leftist [n/t]

[TankLV]

78. Not I

but then again some here would consider me a commie or a SOCIALIST!

[HughMoran]

81. Yeah, we know who you are

Nice of you to point out that you are a bad ass lady.

[G_j]

86. you have no idea!

:P

[HughMoran]

88. I love it when another answers for the O/P

I see this in another place - reminds me of the behavior there very much...

[SayWhatYo]

96. do you?

:P

[scarletwoman]

99. Wow! You know me!?!? I've always felt pretty invisible around here, it's way cool to find out that

not just you but WE know who I am!

Thanks!
:D
sw

[McCamy Taylor]

91. "How leftist are you?" "I'm so leftist that...."

"...I moved to New Zealand so the toilet water would swirl to the left."

"...I always travel Greyhound, because I heard the Right Bros. invented air travel."

"...I store food in the refrigerator overnight before eating it, so that everything that passes my lips is a LEFT-over."

Seriously, leftist, rightest, they are relative terms. Anyone here wants to tell me he or she is the ultimate leftist, I can find someone who will tell you how many ways you have sold out to the system. And then I can find someone to tell THAT person how pathetically bourgeois he is for using toilet paper and having a fixed address and a Social Security number and not dropping acid three times a week before mailing letter bombs to the RNC.

[scarletwoman]

102. You use TOILET PAPER?!?!?!!!!

:rofl:

[McCamy Taylor]

105. Did I say tp? I meant I wipe with pages torn from the King James Bible.

Opiate of the masses and all.

Copy stolen from B and N, of course. Bloody fascist chain book sellers, keeping track of what we buy for the federal government!

[pinto]

94. I'm a liberal and don't fear leftists at all.

I'm assuming you use leftist to mean political activists that don't support a party structure. Eh, I'm fine with that.

It helps define the parameters of discussion.

I'm an old time AIDS activist, ACT UP supporter, that finally broke with them because I felt they went beyond effective action - i.e. one that garnered some results - to a self parody of political activism.

*Yet* I've never regretted my support or doubted the role they played in expanding the discussion about AIDS in this country. I owe them a debt of gratitude for pushing the issues.

They helped pave the way for effective change in the nation's response to AIDS. That change was also engineered by players within the system that worked day-by-day to craft and pass legislation still in place today.

To paraphrase Yoko Ono, we may all be in different cabins, but we're all on the same boat.

[G_j]

109. perhaps it would help to think of a paradigm shift

having worked with ACT UP you know about squeaky wheels.
Most of us here want that shift. Of course a sensible person would not be afraid of a lefty, radical or even anarchist. We all seek and work in our own ways for change.
I suppose real differences arise around the extent and the depth of the problem.
I am one who believes in seriously changing course, not just tacking to a more favorable wind. I think it is too late for anything else.
The military industrial/oil complex owns the game now.
We are faced with a world filled with weapons that we create.
The polar ice is melting faster than our direst models predicted.

Of course, politics is mostly a game, but how long do we have to play?
Politically, my personal choice is Dennise Kucinich, who has the nerve to challenge the militarization of this country. (He is operating out of the frame).

Peace! G_j

[pinto]

112. Thanks for your response.

Yeah, I know squeaky wheels. (I've been one of them.) They're effective in gaining a seat at the table. After that, it all depends on effective outcomes.

Appreciate you saying we all seek and work in our own ways for change. I don't think that can be reiterated too often.

I don't think it's too late.

I grew up in a world poised, and capable, to use nuclear weapons. It was one of our primary foreign policies - in real time and in concrete terms. We stepped back from that precipice.

I remain optimistic.

[G_j]

114. I really do hate sounding morbid

it's just what I see. But do I need optimists like you to inspire me to keep up the good fight. Besides, as MLK I'm sure would agree, you work for your goal rather you think you will achieve it or not, because it is the right thing to do.

[pinto]

117. thumbsup

:thumbsup:

[Tian Zhuangzhuang]

108. Hey its okay lets party

[scarletwoman]

115. LOL! That's hilarious! However, just to be clear, I'm a Lennonist...

But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao
You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow...

sw

edit: how embarassing, I got one of the words wrong... :P

[SlowDownFast]

113. Whatever gets you through the night.

It's alright.

It's alright.

[scarletwoman]

116. Heh, heh. (nt)

[democrank]

121. I don`t know what I am, but

I do know that we have ourselves in such a mess that standard responses won`t fix a thing. It`s time for inside the soul and outside the box.

[Kablooie]

122. But how do you get around? Do you trot or do you ski?

Hell, it's 3:30 in the morning.
I don't know what I'm typing.

Forgive me.

[Beerboy]

123. Liberals that are educated in the traditions of Western Civilization

don't fear Leftists much at all, we just await the resurrection of Rachel Corrie to see if you finally have something we can believe in. Ideologically, we're hanging on a twig...

[lateo]

124. I'm down with that too Scarletwoman

[Perry Logan]

125. Liberals are the ones who get elected to office...

...and they have a list of accomplishments as long as your arm--whether you know about it or not.

Leftists spend all their time badmouthing liberals--while liberals get things done.

Leftists could never win an election, and they'll never accomplish anything. They stand around kvetching, and that's about it. That's probably why we liberals are so afraid of them.

[bigtree]

130. so, you contend there is a difference between liberal and left?

The two have always been one and the same to me. Weird.

Do you think most folks know the difference?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

131. My Favorite Definition Of Socialism

In his final interview before he was killed which was in Playboy John Lennon was asked if he was a socialist...By that time he had amassed a small fortune... His answer was "if being a socialist means believing the government should pay to have granny's teeth fixed then I'm a socialist."

[porphyrian]

136. So I'm not a liberal, I'm a leftist?

Why do we have to keep shuffling the terminology around?

[Blue-Jay]

138. Um...OK.

[WildEyedLiberal]

139. I'm a liberal - I don't particularly like leftists, but I'm certainly not "afraid" of them

I am afraid of the extreme right and their fascist agenda - I think it imperils lives and infringes upon freedoms, and taken to the extreme could put my own life or the lives of my loved ones in danger. Thus, to an extent, I "fear" them.

I do not, however, fear leftists, as I do not believe they want to rob me of life and liberty (not the variety that I see on DU, anyway). I do, however, find many of their arguments and positions silly and full of self-righteous, blustering grandiosity, albeit essentially harmless. Sort of like a very belligerent chihuahua.

I should clarify that when I say I don't like "leftists" I am of course referring to their political worldview, not their individuality. I LIKE some conservatives as individuals, but I hate conservatives as a group. I don't hate leftists, but I do think they're naive and unrealistic at best and self-righteous, shrill, and intolerant at worst.

Before anyone accuses me of being nasty or attacking leftists, let me say that the tone of the OP absolutely justifies the tone of my response.

[LynneSin]

146. oooo - let's cower away in some cave in fear

:rofl:

Yeah - what you said. If someone came up to me and said this to me in real world I'd probably piss my panties from laughing so hard

[BlooInBloo]

141. yadayadayada... Anyone who doesn't support DK is a sellout... yadayadayada,

[scarletwoman]

160. Nice strawman response. I never said a single thing about DK anywhere on this thread.

Thanks for playing.

[BlooInBloo]

163. I didn't say you did.

[scarletwoman]

164. And who did? Or did you just make it up? (nt)

[Forkboy]

168. What a weasely answer.

[roxnev]

142. I am a dyed in the wool Democrat

I hate capitalism, Free trade, and Republican idea about free market economy, that is where the free Market is free to Fu@k you any way they can.

[scarletwoman]

161. Well, I've voted for nothing but Democrats (& campaigned for them & sent them money) since 1970.

I was raised in a blue collar union-member lifelong Democratic Party-voting family. So I've felt like a pretty damn "dyed-in-the-wool" Democrat for my entire life.

I also detest corporatism, predatory capitalism, Free Trade, etc. But there are many elected so-called Democrats who support these things.

So how am I supposed to remain a Democrat, when the Democratic politicians support institutions that I am utterly opposed to? When does the label "Democrat" cease to have any useful meaning?

sw

[LynneSin]

145. Wow - talk about delusions of grandeur

Pul-lease

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I don't know what is scarier - the fact that someone thinks we liberals are scared of 'leftists' or the fact that there are 30 some other people who buy into this crap. Only online can you find such profoundly crazed posters chasing after their own proverbial windmills

:rofl:

[scarletwoman]

162. Yes, I must be "profoundly crazed" -- no other possible explanation for holding such a viewpoint.

I've been on DU almost as long as you have, LynneSin, and I've never been disrespectful or dismissive of you, even if I disagreed with you. But perhaps you wrote me off years ago and I just wasn't aware of it until now.

[LynneSin]

169. Excuse me - what the hell do you call your original post

thinking that liberals are somehow fearful of us leftist.

When I see bullshit I point it out

[scarletwoman]

172. Then call my POST "bullshit", don't call ME "crazed". (nt)

[pattmarty]

148. I always describe myself as just to the right of Marx (no, not Groucho)

[creeksneakers2]

149. The right wingers fear liberals

and moderates even more. They don't fear the far left one bit. In fact, the right does everything it can to exploit liberal/left differences.

Liberals only fear the left because the left damages liberals, which helps the right.

Liberal economic philosophy, free enterprise that is taxed and regulated, brought America from the Great Depression through the Second World War on to America becoming the most wealthy nation on earth. Everybody benefited, even the poor. The idea of throwing out that formula will never wash with Americans, so there is no reason to fear what is being called "the left" here.

[ProudDad]

153. It was FDR co-opting

some SOCIALIST and LEFTIST ideas that redistributed a small part of the general wealth to the poor and middle class that partially brought the U.S. out of the Depression.

It was the eager entry of the profiteers into WWII that finished the job of saving capitalism from itself -- temporarily.

In a capitalist economy, war is your friend... That's why the capitalist powers made the decision in 1946 to institute perpetual war in order to prop up the their defective "capitalist" system. The phony "war on terra (tm)" is just the latest incarnation of the system based on perpetual war.

It was LEFTIST and SOCIALIST ideas like, oh, sharing the wealth by imposing high taxes on the wealthy and corporations, making education available for FREE or nearly FREE (G.I.Bill and College GRANTS - remember them -- now it's fucking "LOANS") coupled with tariffs to protect U.S. business that made the U.S. the "most wealthy nation on earth"... It was muzzling the capitalist "free marketeers" and "liberal economics" and exercising a form of Keynesian "semi-socialist" economics that created the largest middle-class in history... Now that they've given up on stealing our ideas their failing system will continue to fail at a faster rate.

It was NOT "liberal economic philosophy"! "Liberal economic philosophy" is the myth that ray-gun rode into office on and that g.w.bush is the most effective proponent of and that's responsible for the economic SHITPILE most of us are laboring under and getting screwed by.

There is NO "free enterprise" in this country above the street level. That's another myth your corporate capitalist masters have used to pull the wool over your eyes.

As for taxed and regulated -- there are nearly NO taxes on the minuscule corporate "profits" that make it through accounting tricks and executive perks to the bottom line. And regulation in this country is now and nearly forever has been a joke...a form of extremely dark humor...

You had better fear the left if you are among those brainwashed by your corporate capitalist masters into thinking that it's the ONLY way to run an economy...

The REAL LEFT is the wave of the future if the capitalists don't foul the Earth to the point where there is no future for mammalian life...

[creeksneakers2]

155. I don't think free education is a socialist idea

I think its a public investment.

There are capitalists who create wars but capitalism doesn't create wars. We went from 1973 to 1991 without a significant war and capitalism did just fine.

Corporate tax revenues netted $380 billion in 2006.

The graduated income tax is a liberal idea. I don't know exactly what a socialist tax could be but I think it would be much higher than the liberal one.

Roosevelt got us out of the Depression with redistribution. Roosevelt was not a socialist or a far leftist.

Most Americans don't live in an economic shit pile. Generally, we have it pretty good here. Immigrants come here from economic shit piles.

I don't believe Keynes was a socialist.

[ProudDad]

156. Response

Of course free education is a public investment. I'm CERTAIN that free public education was considered a wacko-socialist idea when proposed and in fact, is still looked upon as a failed socialist experiment by the bushies and their fellow travelers. That's why they're actively trying to kill it...

Wars are GREAT for capitalists. The perpetual war is REALLY GREAT for the corporate capitalist masters. You didn't address this set of inconvenient FACTS...

"Corporate tax revenues netted $380 billion in 2006." -- the current corporate "contribution" as a percentage of the tax base is MUCH lower than it was even 20 years ago. The middle-class has been forced to take up the slack...mostly for the fucking great war machine!!!

"The graduated income tax is a liberal idea. I don't know exactly what a socialist tax could be but I think it would be much higher than the liberal one." YOU BET IT WOULD BE! Communities contribute to one another for each member's well being...they don't hoard the wealth for a few individual's gain...

"Roosevelt got us out of the Depression with redistribution. Roosevelt was not a socialist or a far leftist." I know that! FDR co-opted some crumbs from the Socialist program in order to save himself and his capitalist class from being replaced by a better system.

"Most Americans don't live in an economic shit pile." Ahh, and how many paychecks from the street are you?

"I don't believe Keynes was a socialist." Actually he was a HELL of a lot closer to Socialist than to a "classic liberal economist". That's why his policies worked!

"In the midst of the Great Depression, bourgeois economic theory was suddenly raised from the dead by the “daring” theories of John Maynard Keynes. His main work, The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money, was hailed as a “revolution” in economic thought and led to the formation of a school of “Keynesian economics.” While persistent “orthodox” economists opposed this new school as “socialistic” or “illusionary,”"

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_economics

[scarletwoman]

157. Wow! That is an awesome post! Thank you! (nt)

[ProudDad]

167. No, thank you!!!

:blush: :hi:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

152. Yeah, we say things you're not supposed to say, like

"The U.S. is committing war crimes in Iraq" and "The working class has rejected the lifestyle left, not the economic left" and "the political system is stacked against anyone who would really change anything, except for the worse."

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

158. Thank you, LL! I didn't check this thread yesterday (thought it was long dead), so I didn't see your

post until just now. Your support really means alot!

:hi:
sw

[AuntPatsy]

166. I can't believe how some attacked your op, honestly I don't feel

you said anything to garner some of the responses on this thread. It makes me wonder why, are some perhaps feeling a bit on edge concerning those in office they have hope for but continue to dissapoint, they should not take it out on you, simply my opinion but some of the ugliness around here is getting old and I don't agree that it is simply because it is primary time, I think people are beginning to lose it sad to say and I guess in a way I can't blame that all that much, what this country and the world has had to put up with coming from us, its enough to drive even the once sane a bordering looney.

[scarletwoman]

170. Oh, it's no big deal. I hardly ever start threads, but I know what to expect when I do.

I might have worded my OP better. I posted it on a sudden impulse brought about by reading too damn many threads complaining about "Hillary-bashers". I just wanted to make a statement about "left-bashing", knowing full well that "left-bashing" has long tradition on DU.

And because I was feeling pissed off, I went ahead and worded it provocatively. Because I'm an evil leftist... :evilgrin:

sw

[AuntPatsy]

171. These days there are basically two feelings, sad or enraged, I have my days as well.

[scarletwoman]

175. I swing between rage and despair. At least rage gets me all het enough to do something... (nt)

[Swamp Rat]

173. Not only do I argue against 'the frame'

I argue against the polemic use of "leftist/rightist" and "liberal/conservative" in general. :D

:hi:

[scarletwoman]

174. Well, that's because you're so wise!

:hug:

sw

[ecstatic]

176. Liberals operate in reality

:shrug: