I Pray the Iraqi Resistance

[Zandor]

Will lay down their arms.

[uppityperson]

1. I pray all will lay down their arms, and those $$hungry megalomaniacs in power go away

I pray for you also.

[Zandor]

32. Thank you

I will pray for you as well.

[uppityperson]

38. Here is a thread you might find interesting Zandor

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1940086

[Zandor]

42. Sorry? n/t

[uppityperson]

47. Indeed.

[Myrina]

2. I'm sure alot of English said that about the "Colonial Resistance"

... back in the mid-1700's too ... :eyes:

[brentspeak]

5. You're comparing the people in Iraq who blow up our troops and Iraqi women and children

with the American revolutionaries?????

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

6. Well one man's terrorist is another man's..............n/t

[northzax]

10. And surely there are some

Honorable fighters in Iraq who target military and government targets who could be called legitimate revolutionaries. Those who target civilian populations are called by another name: murderers. Attacking a military cobvoy is resistance, car bombs on civilian streets is terrorism.

there have been arms of groups like ETA or IRa who hit civilians, they are terrorists, there were arms who Went out of their way to not inflict civilian casualties, they can be called freedom fighters.

[Swamp Rat]

7. Bushler did, so does Bart Gruzalski, Professor Emeritus at Northeastern University:

The President Fails American History, Again

By BART GRUZALSKI

On July 4th, 2007, President Bush compared the U.S. struggle in Iraq with the American Revolution. He reminded his audience of West Virginia Air National Guard personnel and their families that the first July 4th celebration in 1777 took place in the midst of "a bloody and difficult struggle that would not end for six more years before America finally secured her freedom." Although "it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way," he said, "at the time, America's victory was far from certain." He then turned to the war in Iraq. "You're the successors of those brave men," he told the crowd. "Like those early patriots, you're fighting a new and unprecedented war." He commended them for "showing that the courage which won our independence more than two centuries ago is alive and well here in West Virginia."

What makes the American Revolution an inspirational example to people everywhere is that the first Americans were, like the Iraqis today, trying to end an occupation. Bush never got it, even though he pointed out that in 1777 "we were a small band of freedom-loving patriots taking on the most powerful empire in the world." Today it is the Iraqis who are "taking on the most powerful empire in the world" and our own military that constitutes the occupation. This is the stark and obvious analogy between the American Revolution and the Iraq occupation and it does not bode well for U.S. military success.

The American Revolution jettisoned foreign rule and subjection to the English throne. It should not be surprising to Americans that other peoples want to free themselves from occupation and foreign rule. Being a colony and suffering foreign troops on our soil infuriated our ancestors and would infuriate most of us today. The U.S. currently has over 160 thousand military personnel occupying Iraq, yet Iraq is a country with less than 10% of the population of the U.S. If a proportionally equal number of foreign troops were occupying our nation, more than 1,600,000 foreign troops would be in our cities, on our streets, and in our neighborhoods. There is no question about what would happen-we would create an insurgency of unprecedented ferocity that would drive the foreigners out. This is precisely what the Iraqi insurgents are trying to do today.

(snip)

What is shameless is that Bush used the example of our own American Revolution against a foreign occupation to pump up an audience of National Guard and their families as he told them to be ready for even "more sacrifice" (the euphemism for casualties) in our war of occupation.

Bart Gruzalski is Professor Emeritus at Northeastern University. His most recent book is "On Gandhi."

http://www.counterpunch.org/gruzalski07072007.html

[alarimer]

99. That's what we get for invading a country that had done nothing

WE are the oppressors in this case. There is nothing noble about any of it.

[Whisp]

104. whose really blowing up who here. get real.

hate to shock and awe you.

[stranger81]

118. The Iraqis have more right to do what they're doing than did the American Revolutionaries

the Iraqis, for instance, happen to have lived in the country we've invaded and occupied for thousands of years. We have ZERO right to be over there.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

155. Sure. Why not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_the_Painter

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

80. However, the situations are much different.

The Iraqi's have MUCH more merit for their resistance than we ever did. We were a bunch of screaming children who didn't get our way. The Brits, while terribly led, didn't commit half the shit we've done to Iraq. That said, I think there are better options. I also am pretty damn happy about our rebellion, however ill designed it was.

[malaise]

128. Bingo n/t

[NOLALady]

85. Don't forget the Native Americans.

[Kelly Rupert]

87. You forgot Poland n/t

[uppityperson]

88. Yeah, it worked really swell for them.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. So do I. And, I pray that their enemies will do likewise.

But, I ain't holding my breath 'til either takes that truly brave step.

[LeftishBrit]

4. I pray that ALL sides will lay down their arms.

[spoony]

52. There's the best reply possible.

[Zandor]

63. Amen n/t

[Mrs. Overall]

8. Glad to see you're at it again with simple, black and white thinking, devisive

posts.

I see that your "kill all the bastard insurgents" subthread was deleted in another post. Now you're sporting pictures of Ghandi and MLK?

What is your agenda? I'm just curious.

[Zandor]

14. Perhaps you shouldn't try to re-post what moderators delete

My prayer for violent insurgents to lay down their arms is not inconsistent with my anger when the murder of Americans is set to music for propaganda purposes.

[Mrs. Overall]

15. I'm sure you just hit the alert button, but I ain't going away.

[Zandor]

19. Nope

Just some advice.

[Mrs. Overall]

21. Why did you just remove your pics of Ghandi and MLK in your op?

[Zandor]

23. I can still see them

But there may be some conspiracy keeping you from doing so. :)

[Kelly Rupert]

17. A prayer for voluntary peace, though,

is completely incompatible with a stated desire that all your enemies be put to the sword.

[Zandor]

22. I disagree

We can pray for our enemies.

[Kelly Rupert]

24. "God,

please let our enemies stop killing us. Also, please help us kill them."

Not exactly the belief of Gandhi or King.

[Zandor]

25. A misrepresentation

Anger at the actions of those killing Americans is not incompatible with hoping they end their violent ways.

[Kelly Rupert]

27. And "anger at the actions" of others

is not the same as a stated wish for them all to be killed. You do not emulate a pacifist very convincingly.

[Whisp]

107. whose violent ways are we talking about here?

are you for fricken real?

[Bluerthanblue]

109. all that matter are 'Americans'?

what a small petty world this would be if you were god.

Do you allow the Iraqi citizens the same lee-way to desire the same for those who are killing them? And towards the nation who has wrought incredible suffering upon them in the name of "spreading freedom"? and the safety of the people of the aggressors' "homeland"?

As much as i desire peace, i don't advocate that all nations bow at the feet of the great American empire. This nation of ours has many fine ideals and institutions, but it is no better than the best of the good in its leadership, and as bad as the worst in the same.




blu

[Whisp]

106. just exactly Who brought that violence?

and under what liar reasons?
your message is SUBMIT to BushCo. I don't like it, I don't buy it, I am speaking out against it.
good cripes I can't believe some of this allowable shit here lately.

[Moochy]

123. Right-eous anger?

Careful, methodical... almost 1000+ post! gooo Team Zandor!

[uppityperson]

29. seriously? I missed that one.

[Mrs. Overall]

36. Yes. It was in a thread about the insurgency not wanting to be called Quaeda.

[Kelly Rupert]

46. Yep. Overplayed his hand a bit in that one n/t

[Forkboy]

69. I thought he did about 500 posts ago, but what do I know?

:shrug:

[SlowDownFast]

95. 500 posts ago

would've been about day before yesterday...

[AuntPatsy]

145. I think the agenda is pretty obvious to quite a few durs.

[Junkdrawer]

9. Hersh: There are two very clear options (for the US in Iraq):

Option A) Get everybody out by midnight tonight.
Option B) Get everybody out by midnight tomorrow.

The fuel that keeps the war going is us.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,druck-508394,00.html

[gatorboy]

11. Zandor can eat 50 eggs.

[yewberry]

127. I pray that someday we will be able to recommend single posts.

I will have to settle for simply admiring this post, sadly.

[U4ikLefty]

139. OMG that was freakin funny!!! n/t

[AlCzervik]

12. vicks vapor rub.

[YOY]

143. Chicken wings and AAA Bateries too?

n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

13. This after you just said you hoped they all died?

Which one is it?

[Zandor]

16. See post #14 n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

20. Nothing in the rules against it n/t

[opiate69]

41. well,

he hopes they lay down their arms, and then they can be "taken out".. but it's ok, becauase he''l be praying for them, and - Gawd willing - they'll get to go to the good heaven. (As opposed to the bad heaven they currently believe in)

[Zandor]

50. A total misrepresentation

No need to make things up.

[opiate69]

55. Just extrapolating your *ahem* "logic".

[AuntPatsy]

146. And doing an excellent job, staying within the boundries must be getting

a tad difficult but like it or not and I don't you have to admire he or she is hanging on still.

[Forkboy]

18. I'm sure it'll happen any day now.

[Zandor]

26. Unlikely

We can hope some will see the suffering they cause Iraqis.

[Forkboy]

43. Yes...let's all hope together.

[Marr]

28. This is pathetic.

Surely you can do better than this.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zandor]

31. No mystery

A progressive and Democrat you disagree with.

[uppityperson]

33. Most of us disagree with that indeed.

You are a master baiter. Flame baiter that is.

[Kelly Rupert]

39. I think your politics are irrelevant to your persona.

Let me word this in a way that will not induce a banhammer. You have a gift for, ah, stimulating debate. And you greatly enjoy seeing your debate stimulated.

[AlCzervik]

49. the problem is the op's stimulating debates are started with the posting of platitudes

and no facts which ultimately just lead to flame wars.

[Kelly Rupert]

53. There is a word many use for people who enjoy

stimulating emotionally-charged debates through use of disputed, possibly-inaccurate generalities.

[AlCzervik]

56. indeed.

[uppityperson]

61. And there is a thing to do when one suspects that.

Beyond poking. If enough join in, sometimes things can happen in a positive manner for DU.

[AlCzervik]

64. yup.

[Mrs. Overall]

48. delete

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zandor]

59. Thank you

It happens often to moderates here, sadly.

[Kelly Rupert]

60. Among others n/t

[uppityperson]

57. If you edit now and remove the offending word your post might stay

Can't insult directly, against the rules.

[Mrs. Overall]

62. But Joe is a Democrat, just like you, me and Zandor.

I guess I get it, I'll delete it.

Seems like other posts have been calling him a lot worse.

[Zandor]

66. I believe he's an independent

that caucuses with Democrats.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marr]

34. This is the sort of deceitful statement I'd expect to hear

from Mr. Lieberman or Fox News. It's sort of a "do you denounce ____?"

Zandor, it may surprise you to learn that DU is not the Iraqi insurgent HQ, and this tacit request that we all denounce them to prove our patriotism is rather disgusting. It's nothing new, but it's still disgusting.

[uppityperson]

35. I'm getting tired of having to prove my patriotism.

Thank you for putting it that way. Appreciate it.

[Zandor]

40. No one asked you or anyone to do anything of the kind

Please read the OP again.

[uppityperson]

44. Support the Troops! Pray the Resistance Lays down its Arms!

nope, we're on to you. Matter of time.

[Moochy]

134. That Zandor he's a cad!

[AuntPatsy]

147. One can hope the ones that make the decisions are as well.

[Zandor]

37. I thought no such thing

But think what you will.

[Marr]

45. It's obvious enough. n/t

[Name removed]

124. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[malaise]

129. It won't be long

There's a clear pattern including the Gore bashing.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

54. I Don't See The Nexus

MLK led a successful movement for African American sovereignty from the U S government...

Gandhi led a successful movement for Indian sovereignty from the British government...

You're urging the Iraqis to give up their sovereignty to a foreign power...

[Zandor]

68. Non-violent resistance

would serve the Iraqi people better.

The invasion of Iraq was a mistake. Still, in the face of what they face, Iraqis would be better served by non-violent resistance.

Violence and attacks on Americans will prolong our presence there, not shorten it.

[Kelly Rupert]

I agree that they would. However, it's morally impossible for you to claim that nonviolence

is a superior route for the Iraqis while simultaneously claiming that violence (literally to the point of killing all who have resisted with arms) is a superior route for the Americans.

[Zandor]

71. "I agree that they would"

If on;y people would stop at that and not drag baggage from othe threads.

This is common ground for most of us, IMO.

[opiate69]

73. That "baggage" from other threads are YOUR WORDS, Skippy.. how do they taste?

[Kelly Rupert]

74. Your wishes for peace cannot be considered to be serious

when you have not yet repudiated a wish for violence, despite ample opportunities to do so.

[stranger81]

120. who's "us"? you and the other voices in your head? [n/t]

[Moochy]

135. Dude you've got a whole baggage cart full of baggage from other threads

[uppityperson]

72. The bad guys put down their guns and the good guys don't, right?

how many times can 1 uppityperson (oh yes, not supposed to say have alerted on a poster)

[cali]

58. How pious of you. Do you really think anyone here

is going to fall for this shit? You've spewed war mongering rhetoric since you've been posting.

And how about praying that the U.S. lay down their arms and stop OCCUPYING another country?

[Zandor]

70. A link please

to my war mongering.

Save yourself some time, you won't find any.

[opiate69]

79. Of course we won't find any because they've been deleted in accordance with DU rules.

[Mrs. Overall]

81. Your war mongering, kill-them-all posts were deleted--that's why no one can find any.

[Zandor]

75. cali? Link? n/t

[uppityperson]

76. If on;y people would stop at that and not drag baggage from othe threads.

[AlCzervik]

77. there would be more room for pie.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

136. Nothing But Apple Pie For Me

And Hot Dogs....

[Zandor]

78. Agreed n/t

[uppityperson]

82. Link? n/t

[Kelly Rupert]

83. Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past n/t

[AlCzervik]

84. Lancelot Links, secret chimp.

[Pastiche423]

111. Don't forget Mata Hairy!

[YOY]

142. OH LAaancey!

[Pastiche423]

148. I would get up after a night of hard partying

just to watch that toon.

[YOY]

149. Thanks to the miracle of the internets you no longer have to!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3026363511144991793&q=Lancelot+Link&total=29&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8

I grew up in Ohio and my wife in Eastern Europe. This show was in both of our childhoods. {Insert 80's TV "Awwwwwwww" here followed}

[Pastiche423]

151. The show lasted into the '80s?

I was watching it in the early '70s.

[YOY]

153. No but the sound effect was!

nt

[Pastiche423]

154. lol

Gotcha!

[uppityperson]

86. mmmmm, pie

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. Nothing Is As Stinking As Dualistic Thinking

eom

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

89. Ghandi? MLK?

If you truly admire these heroes, you would pray that all sides lay down their arms.

Returning violence for violence multiplies
violence, adding deeper darkness to
a night already devoid of stars. Darkness
cannot drive out darkness only light can do
that. Hate cannot drive out hate--only love
can do that.
ML King

[Kelly Rupert]

90. I think that "if" is where you took a left turn. n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

91. May I ask you what you mean by that? nt

[uppityperson]

92. OP has advocated for boming Iran, for instance.

"If" is the question. "If you truly admire these heroes"

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

93. Bombing Iran and having pics of MLK and Ghandi?

I had no idea. Thank you for letting me know. I feel like taking a shower now.

[uppityperson]

94. Yup. mmmm, pie

(good subthread above on pie).

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

102. ....

:rofl:

(have a few things to do, but I always love to talk pie and might join in!)

PS... I love your avatar!

:hi:

[uppityperson]

103. Thanks, jr made it for me.

talented young person.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

114. YW! Great work! nt

[AlCzervik]

108. i just home from the supermarket with you guessed it----pie! pumpkin pie

and some whipping cream, i can't wait for dinner.

[Uncle Joe]

96. Whose prayers do you believe God will listen to, yours or the insurgents?

If your praying for them to lay down their arms and their praying the U.S.; who they view as an occupying force, leaves their nation, doesn't that leave God in a quandary?

[NMMNG]

97. ....

Nice to c u again.

[uppityperson]

98. !

Been wondering that myself.

[Pastiche423]

112. Aha!

Thanks for the skinny.

[Jed Dilligan]

100. How's that workin' out for ya?

Maybe you should pray harder. Maybe you should pray more and post less.

[Whisp]

101. and give up their country to Corporation Bush?

would You, switching the scenarios around?
good lord. am I hearing this right?

[shadowknows69]

105. I pray we'll leave their country

so they have a reason to.

[MasonJar]

110. Would you if they had attacked and occupied us? Maybe killed

your family members or neighbors? Maybe forced you to leave the country to survive?

[SlowDownFast]

113. I pray

that soon I will not be subjected to any more Zandor-doo threads...

[KG]

115. no you don't

try another bucket of chum.

[stranger81]

116. I pray the US occupiers will lay down their arms.

What are you calling for, Zandor -- unconditional surrender? It's our country now, or something? What the hell? What website am I on, anyway?

[Zandor]

117. I understand the prayers for better conduct by our country

And am glad to see we have a number of DUers that pray along with me.

[Beetwasher]

119. Why Don't You Try Actually Doing Something USEFUL Instead?

:eyes:

[Mrs. Overall]

121. I pray PETA will stop picking on Gore.

[malaise]

130. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

:rofl: :rofl:

[Blue-Jay]

122. I pray that trolls will get raptured.

[AuntPatsy]

150. Ill pray with you.

[sniffa]

125. and i pray

not to see these threads. :eyes:

however, i see no recomendations yet, so my other prayers that peopLe stop being so guLLibLe have been answered.

praise jeebus.

[charlie]

126. Pray me a tuna fish sandwich

and you can enjoy the thrill of one of your nickel and dime threads doing some good. But get to it quick, I'll be cracking open the mayo in about 15 minutes.

[baby_mouse]

131. Oh this is HIPPY site, huh?

Cos how can we be all about PEEEEEACE when really we want Iraqis to shoot Americans, yeah? Cos the Americans are the good guys, so they get to shoot who they like. IT'S OKAY. IT'S ALL A BIG MISTAKE.

The Iraqis have to UNDERSTAND. And, and MOVE ON. And stuff.

[Solly Mack]

132. Aaahh-Chooo

[ima_sinnic]

133. wow--now that would be convenient for the occupiers, wouldn't it?

i'm sure "god" will hasten to answer your prayer and cause the occupyees to submit to bushler! their right to determine their own fate as a sovereign nation has hereby been terminated per the occupiers' prayers!

[ProSense]

137. You need to remove the MLK avatar because you obviously don't share his views!

<...>

Somehow this madness must cease. We must stop now. I speak as a child of God and brother to the suffering poor of Vietnam. I speak for those whose land is being laid waste, whose homes are being destroyed, whose culture is being subverted. I speak for the poor of America who are paying the double price of smashed hopes at home, and death and corruption in Vietnam. I speak as a citizen of the world, for the world as it stands aghast at the path we have taken. I speak as one who loves America, to the leaders of our own nation: The great initiative in this war is ours; the initiative to stop it must be ours.

This is the message of the great Buddhist leaders of Vietnam. Recently one of them wrote these words, and I quote:

Each day the war goes on the hatred increases in the heart of the Vietnamese and in the hearts of those of humanitarian instinct. The Americans are forcing even their friends into becoming their enemies. It is curious that the Americans, who calculate so carefully on the possibilities of military victory, do not realize that in the process they are incurring deep psychological and political defeat. The image of America will never again be the image of revolution, freedom, and democracy, but the image of violence and militarism (unquote).

If we continue, there will be no doubt in my mind and in the mind of the world that we have no honorable intentions in Vietnam. If we do not stop our war against the people of Vietnam immediately, the world will be left with no other alternative than to see this as some horrible, clumsy, and deadly game we have decided to play. The world now demands a maturity of America that we may not be able to achieve. It demands that we admit that we have been wrong from the beginning of our adventure in Vietnam, that we have been detrimental to the life of the Vietnamese people. The situation is one in which we must be ready to turn sharply from our present ways. In order to atone for our sins and errors in Vietnam, we should take the initiative in bringing a halt to this tragic war.

*I would like to suggest five concrete things that our government should do immediately to begin the long and difficult process of extricating ourselves from this nightmarish conflict:

Number one: End all bombing in North and South Vietnam.

Number two: Declare a unilateral cease-fire in the hope that such action will create the atmosphere for negotiation.

Three: Take immediate steps to prevent other battlegrounds in Southeast Asia by curtailing our military buildup in Thailand and our interference in Laos.

Four: Realistically accept the fact that the National Liberation Front has substantial support in South Vietnam and must thereby play a role in any meaningful negotiations and any future Vietnam government.

Five: *Set a date that we will remove all foreign troops from Vietnam in accordance with the 1954 Geneva Agreement.

more

[Bright Eyes]

138. And i pray that we leave Iraq before anymore people

die.

[Evoman]

140. That's inhumane. What are they going to pick their noses with if we take away their arms?

[YOY]

141. Mr. B Natural

[The Stranger]

144. But you are also the one who believes Iran is part of an "Axis of Evil"

[Bonobo]

152. Resistance? What are they resisting in your highly creative mind?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

156. Why don't you go to Iraq and ask them yourself?

God doesn't exist, so praying's not going to help.