Sympathy for the Devil redux

[varkam]

I think this kind of got buried and so it didn't get a whole lot of notice. Either that, or I'm just generally reviled. I'm reposting it because I'm genuinely interested to hear what people think about it - right, crazy, or otherwise. Enjoy.

I guess that you could say that I am a little disheartened as of late with respect to some of the things that I have read here on the Democratic Underground. I know that we are a fairly disparate group of people in that we differ from one another (sometimes markedly so) in our opinions. Sometimes it seems we can find little common ground, especially if you venture into the topic forums.

I think what I am about to say, however, is probably uncontroversial: there are such things as fundamental human rights. In other words, by the very virtue of simply being a person we have certain, inalienable rights. It doesn't really matter where you think those rights come from, be it God or society, but simply that we have them. I say that is probably uncontroversial as it is one of the founding principles of the United States.

What that means, then, is that we should be afforded certain protections, enforceable by the state, that are non-negotiable. We have the right to be free in our thought and our speech. We have the right to basic human dignity. I could go on for a while, but suffice it to say that these fundamental human rights are the foundation for both our country and our criminal justice system (in that those who choose to violate the rights of others are punished accordingly).

Now, what I am about to say will probably be unpopular. I will preface it by saying that I am not a perfect person. I have lied. I have hurt and used people. I have made many mistakes and, I suspect, will make many, many more before I go into the ground. I do not claim to be any more moral than anyone else here.

But what I am disheartened by is seeing usually reasonable people proposing rather unreasonable and barbaric courses of action being taken against certain individuals whom you might call the worst among us. People who violate our sense of right and wrong, our sense of decency, our values in some of the most horrific ways imaginable. People who harm the innocent and the helpless. People that harm our children. The murders. The rapists. The molesters. The people who, through their acts, take all that is good and corrupt it. The people who, as a result of their crimes, strip us of our collective innocence and force us into a reality that is uncomfortable for us all. A reality where the bad guy can win. A reality where the good guy, though the cause is just, suffers. A reality that makes us yearn for justice and a sense of fairness.

I'm talking about the John Coueys of the world. The Jeffrey Dahmers. The Charles Mansons. The Osama bin Ladens. Their crimes should outrage us, should make us ill, should make us cry, for I mourn the passing of our society when they do no longer.

They are, however, human beings - and nothing can change that. Not the ruthlessness of their method, nor the remorselessness of their psyche. As I said before, human beings are entitled to certain non-negotiable rights. Rights that should be extended to the Coueys, the Dahmers, the Mansons, and the bin Ladens. Notice here, however, that you can simultaneously do this while affirming that their acts deserve a swift and unequivocal response. I am not a Christian, but the phrase "hate the sin, love the sinner" comes to mind.

I understand our desire for retribution, to visit onto the offender the suffering that they have wrought - for it's own sake. I understand our desire for revenge. But we should not allow retribution to become the sole reason for punishment, we should not allow our desire for revenge to obscure our reason - for I will likewise mourn the passing of our society when they do.

As a closing thought, I forget the source but I recall the parable of slaying monsters. When we slay our own collective monsters, we should take care not to become monsters ourselves.

I take a stand on the principle of fundamental human rights, and do so because I believe if one among us has lost them, then they are no longer fundamental, no longer non-negotiable. Either we all have fundamental human rights, or none of us do.

Thank you for reading.

[ulysses]

1. we try to distance ourselves from those who do these things

by calling them "inhuman", but that's untrue. Well said, varkam.

[varkam]

3. As a point of interest...

I forget where I heard the theory, but it may be that's where many of our so-called mythological creatures such as vampires and werewolves came from. As long as people have been around, they have being doing the things that people do - including rape and murder. So the idea is that the genesis of these mythical figures has it's roots in some of the same emotional reactions that we see today in the wake of especially heinous crimes. In other words, perhaps people really thought human beings could not do these things and so, consequently, it was a vampire, or a werewolf, or some other monstrous child of the imagination.

[ulysses]

7. I'd believe that,

particularly given the sexuality of the vampire thing. Interesting theory, and insightful OP.

[MedleyMisty]

2. Wholeheartedly recommended

And I fully agree with you.

[Bluerthanblue]

4. ~

word

[Hydra]

5. It's a nice thougth in theory

but these are ideals- and we as a species are far from "ideal."

The ideals only have the strength of the people willing to fight to have them exist. You have tried to do this, and I commend you for it, but be aware of how tenuous these ideas are, and how fast they are discarded when we feel the need to do something counter to them...like frying someone in an electric chair for an alleged guilt regarding a crime.

I've come to this point, because I argue true rule of law if that's what we all agree on...the problem is that most people say "yeah, but..."

There is no, "yeah, but.." where justice is concerned. The fact that it even comes up tells me that we don't like being "civilized" as a species...which would explain a large number of things, wouldn't it?

[varkam]

8. I gues that's why I posted.

I've noticed a lot of people saying "yeah, but" in recent days, and I felt that I should say something rather than not rock the boat at all.

I don't know what good it will do, though.

[Hydra]

13. None

People do what they like, regardless of what they claim. It's nice to meet another person looking for consistency, though :evilgrin:

[BrklynLiberal]

6. More than disheartening. Truly depressing and scary.

When I am online at work and read stories of cruelty, and find myself crying...many of my fellow workers cannot understand why it bothers me so much.

[rasputin1952]

9. We often see in others, what we could become under

circumstances that might or might not be under our control...it terrifies us to think we could do such things, so we demonize those that do. Not to say that in some instances some people should be demonized to an extent.

Looking at what Stalin, Hitler, Tojo and others have done throughout history makes us realize that we are not far from possibly going down or even building the road that some people take.

I believe that everyone should be seen equal in every respect as a baseline...but once certain lines are crossed, the mores and laws of a society breached in ways we find abhorrant, I see no problem at all in sending them into prison, out of society for life. They have "earned" their removal from society.

There are "evil" people in this world, from every socio-economic class and any other "group" that exists. While they are indeed human, they have given up their humanity by becoming socio or psychopaths. The only thing that remains of their human side is that they can still think, other than that, they are a pariah. We keep them alive because it is the least of the basic things we can do. They have decided that society is not for them, and by their actions, they have removed the compassion, empathy, caring that helps to make us "human". Each of us has the capability to become like them, but, fortuantely, very few take the road of self damnation.

[varkam]

10. A response.

circumstances that might or might not be under our control...it terrifies us to think we could do such things, so we demonize those that do. Not to say that in some instances some people should be demonized to an extent.

I have to disagree with you there, old friend. People should never be demonized, because people are not demons. People are human beings, and my point is that being a human being with all it's attendant rights is not something one can alter through their acts. Their acts should be demonized and regarded as what they are - true evil. Consequently, the people who commit those acts should be held accountable for them in some fashion.

I do think you make a very good point though in that these acts strike fear into us all, and so we use wedge issues to seperate "us" from "them", but if people from Zimbardo and Milgram (social psychological researchers) to the BTK have shown us anything it is that we are them and they are us.

I believe that everyone should be seen equal in every respect as a baseline...but once certain lines are crossed, the mores and laws of a society breached in ways we find abhorrant, I see no problem at all in sending them into prison, out of society for life. They have "earned" their removal from society.

I see no problem in that either. I think, from a purely retributive stance, life imprisonment should be reserved for the worst of the worst. From a public safety standpoint, perhaps there are some people that need to be kept segregated from society for their own good (and for the good of society). But that should (obviously) be done with both care and humanity.

There are "evil" people in this world, from every socio-economic class and any other "group" that exists. While they are indeed human, they have given up their humanity by becoming socio or psychopaths. The only thing that remains of their human side is that they can still think, other than that, they are a pariah. We keep them alive because it is the least of the basic things we can do. They have decided that society is not for them, and by their actions, they have removed the compassion, empathy, caring that helps to make us "human". Each of us has the capability to become like them, but, fortuantely, very few take the road of self damnation.

Again, I will disagree with the bulk of what you say based on my previous assertions. Acts cannot change a person's humanity any more than thoughts can. Actions can be monstrous, inhumane, vile, and evil - and the actors should certainly be held accountible to them.

[rasputin1952]

12. While i agree that people are not "demons", I use the word

not in the literal sense, but as an accepted use said word. There are acts that are so heinous, we find it difficult to accept that a "human" can do them, so we extrapolate upon the language to find words that fit the individual or the act.

Take what Pol Pot did to those he found even the slightest offense with...the Killing Fields are a remembrance of just how far into darkness a human being can fall. Not just Pol Pot though, but those who were degenerate enough to carry out his orders.In my mind, there is no difference between Pol Pot and any other murderer, with the exception of the numbers killed. We, as humans, have come to the point where murder is almost acceptable, (it should never be as such, but we have become calloused by various attitudes and exposure), we are shocked only by the aspects of a particularly nasty act. Child murders, acts of cannibalism, dismemberment and the like, shock us, but the kid who gets gunned down on a corner goes almost unnoticed. A life was taken, but we "accept" it, what a statement that makes for us as a society.

Life is extraordinarily cheap in some parts of the world, the Middle East, Africa, Asia are areas where life has been cheapened to the point of almost being an "afterthought". I believe that the most horrid aspect of all of this is that some societies actually accept the killing of those who are deemed "unacceptable" by parts of a society. That cheapens life to the point where there is no value in life at all.

On the other hand, when I see the rare example of someone like Karla Faye Tucker, who appeared to have made a complete turnaround after a particularly gruesome murder, I see some elements of our own society that, for whatever perverse notion, demand that a life be taken, even when there are other alternatives.

Those that espouse the DP in this country have no concept at how close they are to being in a position of being a recipient of the penalty they so vociferously clamor for. There have been situations where the innocent have been executed, and it takes but the swift motion of a pen in the hands of a fool, to pass laws that add many "crimes" to the DP list.

But I digress. Putting murderers behind bars for life is a viable option. It works for Manson and others, they are no longer a threat to society, and that is part of what justice is about. It has little to do with retribution, as opposed to protection. The DP in this nation, and other forms of delivering death throughout the world however, are all based on vengeance and retribution, usually based on some form or religious "edict". Almost all fail to realize that there are other "penalties" and punishments that do not require physical abuse or death for crimes. The alternatives range from zero penalty to life in prison...with just about everything in between.

[varkam]

15. I agree with much of what you say

not in the literal sense, but as an accepted use said word. There are acts that are so heinous, we find it difficult to accept that a "human" can do them, so we extrapolate upon the language to find words that fit the individual or the act.

Just so long as it is clear that there is a distinction there, no matter how fine it might be. Many people do find it hard to believe that we could do these things, which might be one explanation for things like vampires and werewolves (as I point out up-thread).

Take what Pol Pot did to those he found even the slightest offense with...the Killing Fields are a remembrance of just how far into darkness a human being can fall. Not just Pol Pot though, but those who were degenerate enough to carry out his orders.In my mind, there is no difference between Pol Pot and any other murderer, with the exception of the numbers killed. We, as humans, have come to the point where murder is almost acceptable, (it should never be as such, but we have become calloused by various attitudes and exposure), we are shocked only by the aspects of a particularly nasty act. Child murders, acts of cannibalism, dismemberment and the like, shock us, but the kid who gets gunned down on a corner goes almost unnoticed. A life was taken, but we "accept" it, what a statement that makes for us as a society.

This will seem like it is out of the blue, but have you ever read Freakonomics? In the book, the point is made that we are afraid of fairly strange things. The things that outrage us and make us terrified are, statistically, very unlikely. For instance, your child is much more likely to drown in a neighbor's swimming pool than he/she is to be shot by a gun (and, it goes without saying, being abducted by a stranger ranks somewhere low on the list).

Life is extraordinarily cheap in some parts of the world, the Middle East, Africa, Asia are areas where life has been cheapened to the point of almost being an "afterthought". I believe that the most horrid aspect of all of this is that some societies actually accept the killing of those who are deemed "unacceptable" by parts of a society. That cheapens life to the point where there is no value in life at all.

I agree with you 100%. Fundamental human rights means just that. The poorest of the poor in Africa are entitled to the same things as you and I simply by being human.

I think that our misplaced fears might tie in to what we do and do not accept these days. But I could be wrong - I am often.

On the other hand, when I see the rare example of someone like Karla Faye Tucker, who appeared to have made a complete turnaround after a particularly gruesome murder, I see some elements of our own society that, for whatever perverse notion, demand that a life be taken, even when there are other alternatives.

Bloodlust. The act of killing someone won't undo what they have done, nor will it make them any more or less remoseful for their crimes. It's a very emotionally-driven thing (which is rarely a good thing when it comes to deciding people's fates).

Those that espouse the DP in this country have no concept at how close they are to being in a position of being a recipient of the penalty they so vociferously clamor for. There have been situations where the innocent have been executed, and it takes but the swift motion of a pen in the hands of a fool, to pass laws that add many "crimes" to the DP list.

I agree. The way I see it, it's murder - whether or not the state accepts it. Even if people could somehow revoke their status as a human being, the DP is resting atop the notion that the state is always just - which you don't have to look too far to find examples to the contrary.

But I digress. Putting murderers behind bars for life is a viable option. It works for Manson and others, they are no longer a threat to society, and that is part of what justice is about. It has little to do with retribution, as opposed to protection. The DP in this nation, and other forms of delivering death throughout the world however, are all based on vengeance and retribution, usually based on some form or religious "edict". Almost all fail to realize that there are other "penalties" and punishments that do not require physical abuse or death for crimes. The alternatives range from zero penalty to life in prison...with just about everything in between.

Ideally, retribution should never stand alone as a guidepost for sentencing. There also have to be considerations made for deterrence, incapacitation, and the affirmation of societal norms. In practice, however, I think retribution often takes a front-seat during such proceedings which I feel just cheapens the rule of law.

Yes, people who are threats to society should be segregated from it. Life imprisonment should be reserved for the absolute worst of the worst (insofar as it affirms the values of our society) as well as those who pose a persistent threat due to some sort of pathology, other than that I think we also overuse a sentence of life imprisonment in this country. Just my .02, though.

Hope things are well with you :hi:

[OneBlueSky]

11. "Fry the bastards!" . . .

there is a subset of the American population -- an possibly a quite large one -- for whom "Fry the bastards!" has become the first response to just about every instance of someone else doing something immoral, unethical or illegal . . . I know, because that's often my own initial reaction when I hear of a child raped or a dog tortured or an innocent Iraqi family gunned down . . . if I didn't check myself, I'd be part of that subset of the population for whom punishment should be swift, decisive, and maximum -- even if there's a chance the "perpetrator" may be innocent . . .

the problem seems to be that there's too much really bad shit going on in the world for anyone to fully take in and comprehend . . . with neither the time nor the inclination to study complex issues in some depth in order to arrive at a reasonable position, the instead allow their gut reactions to take over . . . it's a way to avoid personal responsibility for the world around us and what's happening to it . . .

"Fry the bastards!" also seems to be the undergirding philosophy of the Bush/Cheney administration . . . the thousands of dead and maimed Americans, and the hundreds of thousands of dead and maimed Iraqis, seemingly don't bother them in the least . . . they are, in fact, quite ready to inflict similar carnage on yet another sovereign nation, and that's quite okay with our corrrupt and chickenshit corporate Congress . . . and with role models like these, it's no wonder that so many Americans are quite willing for the state to "Fry the bastards!" now and worry about the consequences later -- or, preferably, not at all" . . .

Bush/Cheney has fostered an ethic in this country that totally discounts the human dimension of public policy in favor of raw aggression and personal and corporate financial gain, and retaliation against those with whom one disagrees . . . even if they're guilty of nothing more than wearing a t-shirt, or writing an letter to the editor, or just being the wrong color, the wrong religion, the wrong ethnicity, the wrong sex, the wrong orientation, or the wrong whatever they decide . . .

unless we can inject a new commitment to acknowledging and honoring our shared humanity in our public policy, we're just going to keep getting more and more confused, more and more angry, more and more fascist . . . "Fry the bastards!" will become official government foundation, and those KBR camps will be filling up rather quickly . . .

what we need in order to stem this downward spiral is leadership who understand the notion of interconnectedness and interdependence -- and who will start building a new public policy around these truths . . . I don't know who that person is (Al Gore? Bobby Kennedy?), but he or she damned well better get started . . . before we attempt to attack and occupy every oil-producing nation on the planet . . . guess it's a hell of a lot easier and more profitable to simply take all the oil than it is to develop alternative energy -- and learn to care for the nation and the planet responsibly . . .

[MedleyMisty]

14. I wanted to bump this

So here's a post that I posted twice, both on threads about the Holocaust lately. It never got any replies, and I guess that's because, like you say, people don't want to face the fact that humans do things like that.


If there's one thing I know about it - the Nazis were human. They weren't inhuman monsters. They weren't a special circumstance that can never happen again. A look around the world today shows you that. We must always watch ourselves and stay aware of prejudice and hate and fear and obedience and conformity. We have to look it in the face and know it and rise above it. In all my reading, there was one constant theme.

Witness.

And so today I look at the pictures of the victims of humanity. I witness their suffering. I look at their torturers and killers and I witness their fear and their hate. I look in the mirror and witness those oh so human qualities in myself. I will not let them take me over.

If we really truly mean it when we say "Never again", we all have to do that. We have to look at the worst parts of human nature and know them intimately and recognize them and own them as part of ourselves so we can overcome them.