Baby Boomers: Why do so many lack real computer skills?

[OzarkDem]

I've noticed this problem in activism over the last several years and more recently in running my business in the last year.

The majority of college educated people in my general age group (late 40's to mid 50's) have little or no basic computer skills. They don't know how to send emails, look things up on the internet, use Outlook, create a spreadsheet, handle basic computer graphics, create a database or do anything more than type a basic letter in Word.

Some manage to get along in good paying jobs, though I don't know how. And many women that we counsel and assist can't find decent jobs because their skills haven't grown since the 1960's. In the last year, I've hired 2 people, both with advanced degrees, who can't do more than type a letter in Word and print it. Both had taken computer classes and worked in previous jobs that required them to use computers. I'm on the verge of firing them both right now because I'm either having to do their jobs for them or spend most of my time showing them how to do the most basic tasks.

One employee was assigned to develop press releases about our company and program for 4 different cities in the state and send them to the major media outlets in each area. One month later, I had to finish the job myself. They spend half the day screwing up their email system, deleting stuff from the network and messing up their connection to the office printers. I spend the rest of the day fixing it all only to see them come in the next day and do it again.

Half the activists in our local political groups can't stay engaged because they don't know how to retrieve or read emails or (this one seems to be hardest) download attachments. They want us to print and mail everything to them.

With the economy taking a nosedive, I fear many people (especially women) my age are going to see drastic reductions in their incomes as they end up with jobs in retail or food service. I have a liberal arts degree, but am self taught in computers and IS. I took the time to use my computer for more than shopping online and learned networking, database development, desktop publishing, web site development, etc.

Anyone else run into this problem or have an idea of how to solve it? Maybe its the area I live in (traditionally a very blue collar area. I'm convinced many people would be better informed voters and more politically active if they knew how to use their computer, get email and surf the internet.

[Triana]

1. Excuse me? I'm in that age group and...

I was in IT for 20+ years - SELF TAUGHT. My computer skills are fine. AND I'm a woman. First computer was a 'Trash-80' (TRS-80).

You might want to be careful with those generalizations.

You might want to also realize that in comparision to 26-year olds, people "our" age were NOT born with computers under their fingers like the 20-somethings now.

That is to say, we didn't START using them till our 20s because THEY WEREN'T THERE to use.

[OzarkDem]

5. We're rare

I wouldn't have believed it, either, until I got involved in grassroots activism and worked with volunteers, then started my own business and hired people.

I was and am truly shocked. I keep thinking its a matter of odds, that I'll eventually come across people with computer skills, but its still very rare. I've also been disappointed to find people will lie about their skill level and you don't find out until after they're hired that they don't even know, say, basic keyboarding skills or how to import a document to a file.

Its been a real eye opener.

[Triana]

14. To find women in that age group who are computer literate is even rarer...

...I'm afraid. And that IS sad. The (IS/IT/high-tech) industry is NOT friendly to women of ANY age and that doesn't help, so consider that too.

But anyway, I understand what you're saying, but if *I* could get as far as I have since the 80's (and having the female thing against me all that time - and still) others can/could have too, so don't generalize too awful much. :)

Good luck finding some more mature computer geeks. I KNOW they're out there! I can think of three of them who are friends of mine without even trying!

[OzarkDem]

35. I am in awe of women like you

My husband works in IT as a consultant and I've always been impressed by the women he works with who "bootstrapped" themselves into high ranking jobs in the field. He's worked with a couple of women who were in their 60's in VP level jobs - just amazing. They are fantastic and the accomplishments they've achieved are impressive.

[DavidMS]

50. I have worked with some women in IT

Many of them are very, very good. Unfortunately, women either seem to cluster into help desk type jobs or are the best one in the department to figure out what broke. The ones who are not in helpdesk tend to be very knowledgeable and willing to share what they know.

[Breeze54]

71. Women on help desks know their stuff!

:grr:

I worked for a large nationally well known company that favors MEN!! :grr:

In a room of over 100 MALE techs, I was one of FOUR women!! And this was in the north east,

where technology companies and schools abound! They would hire 'newbies' (20 yr olds) and give

them the better hours, after they were trained etc. Trust me, I know because I trained THEM

and then watched them get MY hours!! :grr: I watched while the company walked into another dept.

and fired all 50 of the e-commerce people on the spot! When outsourcing became so rampant, the

tech companies were hiring CS Engineers, at really low pay, for the help desk jobs, because the

engineers were out of work and cheap and then booting the former workers into help desk support

or customer service. Don't go trashing women! It's the companies causing that!!

[shanti]

86. dunno about college educated boomers

but the non-college educated boomers that i know ARE very non computer oriented. i know several. that said, my 70+ year old parents are very computer literate. in fact, my mother had a computer before i did (late 90's). i made up for lost time tho, and i'm totally self-taught;)

i can't imagine my life without my puter now!

[HeeBGBz]

177. I'm 53 and my computer is my friend

It's an essential part of my life and what I know, I taught myself. Except for one beginner programing class.

I want to try to go back to school if things work out.

[shraby]

7. I was in my late 40's/early 50's when I

got a computer.

[notadmblnd]

23. ditto 28 years in IT here

form operating legacy mainframes to installing servers on the raised floor. and I'm still currently unemployed. Maybe the OP is getting what she pays for?

[OzarkDem]

37. By non-profit standards

we pay pretty well and the skills we're expecting are fairly minimal. I can't imagine any job out there these days that pays at this level that doesn't require some computer knowledge as part of the job. Our employees aren't hired to be computer experts, but mid level management jobs in community services, education and outreach. They need the skills to enter client information in a database, manage a project budget and generate basic reports as well as be able to communicate via email and send press releases.

[notadmblnd]

61. every shop is unique and no matter the skill level

there will be a learning curve. Basic functions of the tasks required should be documented step by step in a procedures manual along with common problems and error messages (I've also written manuals and trained new hires). Some of the basic MS applications are not user friendly and if the task is not performed repetitively, well, those skills fall to the wayside. Power point, Word and Excel are applications I can muddle my way through. But don't ask me about Access unless I'm sitting with the manual. With the exception of Outlook, most companies have their own templates for forms, so even monkeys could be trained to plug in data. I don't know how long these people have been with you, or if you're just annoyed because they come to you with too many questions that prevent you from doing your job. But if procedures were put in place, it might relieve some of your stress? Being a 48 year old female who worked for 28 years in IT (I stopped working when my husband died) who plans on re-entering the workforce in the next year, I too found your remarks generalizing older women, to be offensive. I don't know how old you are but I will say; that what I find lacking in many young people today are basic social skills. I think maybe they've all spent so much time honing their tech skills and have become so arrogant that they are unable to communicate effectively with out offending people.

[OzarkDem]

72. I think in both cases

They "misrepresented" their computer skills. We don't require a great deal of skill,pretty minimal actually, but have a job description that requires they have good knowledge of certain software, e.g. know how to use a basic mailing list in Excel and be able to create, mail or email a letter to the people on that list. My idea is to hire people who already know how to read an error message and troubleshoot their way through a problem. Right now it looks like I need to spend six figures to find someone who can do a mail merge. Heck, I know how to do mail merge and I don't make six figures. ;-)

[jkshaw]

59. Triana, excuse me is right!

I BABYSAT the baby boomer generation and have been using the computer as a word processor since the 1970s and the Internet since 1990, as soon as I discovered Netscape could get me the news from (at that time) from England, Europe, and even Japan. What an eye-opener that was!

Triana, you should have seen the first computer I used. A relic made by the USU Electrical Engineering department. If memory serves, it was the size of an office refrigerator lying on its side, and took 8" disks. I have the first few chapters of a book on them, but can't read them, and it would cost too much to do a translation that doesn't even guarantee that it would work. Besides, I had it all printed out with a dot matrix printer.

Fun to think back on -- ancient history.

[SoCalDem]

2. I am in that age group and am self-taught..

I have a friend who spent a ton of money on a new laptop and has it full of trojan horses.. She asked me what to do.. I said, pay someone to fix it, and keep your dauighter away from myspace & youtube..

I think that people are aways more comfortable with things they grew up with.. people our age did not grow up with computers.. some of us are interested enough to try and learn it, and others are intimidated by them :shrug:

Maybe you need to stress computer literacy FIRST as a prerequisite, and not hire people withour proof they can perform :)

[OzarkDem]

8. That's my next step

After I get rid of these two (and I hate to do it, they're nice people), I'm going to actually require people to take a test on the computer to judge their skills. It seems really silly to make degreed professionals do that, but that's what its come to.

[SoCalDem]

13. Or hire them on a 30 day "probation".. That way they know they have to be

up to snuff on skills or they will be out the door.. As long as you spell it out and have them sign the 'contract" or whatever, you should be within your rights to let them go if they cannot cut it..

You should be sure to spell out carefully, just what you expect them to know.. just saying "computer skills" is too vague, and can be misunderstood.. They may THINK they ARE skilled, because you don't know what you don't know :)

or hire from a temp agency and then keep the ones who can cut the mustard :)

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

3. I'm 52, am mostly self-taught,

AND own my own computer repair business.

It's true, though- 99% of the people who use computers are aware of less than 1% of the things that can be done with them...

[OzarkDem]

11. Thanks, I'm so relieved

I was beginning to think I was crazy. Somehow I think if people work in a large office they're able to get by and hide the fact that their skills are limited. They must rely on others to do their work for them.

You folks in the younger generation must be having to pick up the slack for the others.

[NJCher]

139. maybe they need mentors

99% of the people who use computers are aware of less than 1% of the things that can be done with them...
I'm a boomer who was introduced to computers by geekish friends. Good-hearted ones, too, who took the time and trouble to help me through my initial learning curve. I remember two things my CM (computer mentor) said to me.

One was that I should "pay it forward" by helping someone else. That I have done, many times over.

The other was that I would soon be on my way to becoming a "power user." When I asked what that was, he said it was someone who was not just knowledgeable about the computer, but who found endless fascination in finding ways to make it work for them in all aspects of their life.
When I hear stories like this, it makes me wonder if these people the OP is talking about might have become more proficient had they had a mentor like I did.

My mentor is gone now--he passed over last year from cancer, but I know he's probably at work now on computerizing the Akashic records. :)



Cher

[shraby]

4. My guess is most of them haven't found

anything to use computers for at home where they could develop other skills on one. There just isn't that much to do with a computer in the home besides surf the net and email friends. I had to actively look for a use for mine when I first got one. I learned to make a web page then found something useful to put on it. I put genealogy online for everyone with ancestors in the county I live in which takes a multitude of different computer skills.

[NJCher]

140. are you kidding?

I'm setting one up to shut off the water sprinklers around my property!

Don't even get me started.




Cher

[mitchtv]

6. Those dammned old people

Computer skills a relatively new to people who have lived and worked a lifetime. You said Blue collar area? maybe they had to work and raise a family for the last 30 yrs. I find your post incredibly condescending

[OzarkDem]

16. Both actually worked in government funded programs

in the area of health care and social services. They had good paying jobs.

About half of the attorneys in our Dem activist groups don't know how to read or send emails. You have to call them on the phone or send them a letter.

On edit: I worry a lot about these people. I work helping a lot of women who are sick, helping them pay bills, etc and find new jobs after they get well. They face huge barriers both from the disease they had (cancer) and finding good paying jobs to support themselves.

[Lindsey]

41. I'm almost in the category of the people you're describing...

probably a step up. I just turned 50 one month ago. I'm fine with email, MS word, finding anything on the internet but I don't know excel, powerpoint, etc. Why? Because I received my college degree when I was 41 y.o. in 1998 (after raising a bi-polar, very difficult child) and only needed to get myself around a word processing program for my papers in school. When I graduated, I was already at a management level (having worked my way up even w/o my degree). I admit, I normally have support staff doing the "fancy" computer stuff because I have to focus on dealing with things like a young lady who's husband is beating her and I'm trying to find a shelter for her to live in, or I'm trying to help a young man get a job because he's be in jail for 10 years and there are almost no resources available,....that's what I've been doin'......

[OzarkDem]

49. I hear you

there's more shrinkage in funding in these fields and some of the first things to go are support staff. Federal funding, foundation grants, etc. are declining. In our office you have to do the intake, talk to clients and manage the data you get from them, too. Our caseload isn't too high and the computers, software and programs are all top notch so its pretty easy to do.

[depakid]

9. Yeah, but they still know how to add

and do basic arithmetic.

[mitchtv]

21. and I'll bet they know where

Iran and Iraq are in the map. Being attorneys, I'll bet they can write some mean letters, too

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. I could explain this to you in small words

but I shan't

The problem is there... but the problem is there because computers are in many ways still magical to many users of the 30 and agove group... and it gets worst as people age.

Hell, my mom uses her computer... fairly well for a seventy something, and we help an eighty something with her needs from time to time

But the problem is that kids grow up with them... but for many in our generation computers are still pretty alien

As to self taught, had to... and I still don't know how to put together a dbase, since I don't have the need to do that.

How good are you at programing a CCS website? How about using Corel draw for art?

I could go on...

And windows doesn't make it easier either... many folks I know would have given up on their new shiny vista machines a while ago... due to OS problems, serious enough that my next laptop will be a mac... period

[warren pease]

117. Yup, you got it...

Kids today, at least the more affluent ones, get a PC when they're in Kindergarten. In contrast, we elder folks had to learn all on our own at times in life when learning new things isn't quite as easy as when you're five or six years old.

I grew up with manual typewriters (born 1950). College wasn't much better; they had a primitive computer lab, but only the CS and EE students were allowed to use it. It wasn't until I started working at newspapers in the late-'70s, early '80s that I had to learn to use their systems, which were also stone-age by today's standards, but at least I got my feet wet.

Everything I know now -- which is quite a bit for a technophobe -- I taught myself or had shown to me by somebody who knew how this stuff worked. Programming's still above my head, except for very fundamental html coding, but I'm a pretty good user.

And yes to the Mac. I'm typing this on a year-old MacBook running OS X v4.10 -- maxed out with memory and the fastest CPU available at the time. Right next to it is an H-P laptop running Windows XP Pro. Windows sucks in several important ways compared to the Mac -- filing system, navigation, fast availability of applications being my main three. Windows is a nice try, but the Mac, particularly with OS X, is just a killer machine.

I'd like to try Linux one of these days. I agree philosophically with Richard Stallman and the FSF's concept of free and open software. Of course, I'm not a developer; if I were, I might regard intellectual property and patents differently.

But for now, the Mac is it. Nothing else even close.

And btw, acquaintances who work at a software company whose initials are MS tell me that they wouldn't touch Vista until the next service pack is available. I've no idea if that's valid or not; just passing on what I've heard.


wp

[NJCher]

141. it's valid

It sucks. Stay the hell away from it until the Service Pack comes out and oh btw, they're saying a year. Nadin (above) has had horrendous problems with it, too. I laughed when she said "Mac" because after my Vista experience I am thinking the same thing.

I am putting in two new systems--one is Linux and the other will be a Mac.



Cher

[sandnsea]

12. I have those skills

guess what, nobody cares. Although, I do get annoyed in business when everybody wants to fax stuff because email is so much easier, I agree with you there. I like having the documents stored on my computer, I don't know why more people don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. I hope you also back up regularly.

I have my novel on two physical computer hard drives and one thumb drive

And have to put it on a third for my sanity soon

[depakid]

29. Now you've hit on my pet peeve

My FAX machine finally died about 5 years ago. Didn't replace it, because I figured everyone could just scan things and send them as attachments. Yet people and businesses still keep wanting to FAX things.

It's impressive how many people still can't (or won't) do this simple task....

[Mythsaje]

15. I've been trying for several years to get my father

more computer literate. Part of it is because he's afraid of messing something up (rather difficult unless you do something really, really stupid), or because he's afraid of identity theft. He's in his sixties, and had a very good idea his whole life that this was coming in one form or another. He's the one who got me into sci-fi, after all.

I'm mostly self-taught myself. By the time I was in college I rejected any notion of taking computer classes because I wasn't willing to spend 11 weeks learning something I could teach myself in a matter of three or four. I don't have the patience for that. There are, as a result, a few holes in my knowledge, but I have worked with every major operating system from DOS to XP (my wife has Vista but I haven't explored it yet) as well as gaining some familiarity with Macs (I've used System 7, at least) and even (how many people can say THIS?) Amiga. I miss Amiga.

Not to mention self-taught in every version of Word since the early days, FrontPage, Paint Shop, and several other programs. I'm good at learning, and at teaching myself. At one time I even knew how to use Excel, though I really had no use for it and have since forgotten a lot of what I knew. I can put together a Powerpoint Presentation as well, should I have the need. Databases mean nothing to me--I have no use for them.

I'm 41. I remember when the TRS80 came out. My friends had one and I told them, at the time, "why don't you call me when they can actually DO something useful?"

My first computer was a 386 running at 8 or 12 MhZ. I laugh when I think of that, considering a PDA is now more powerful than it was.

Frankly, I think a lot of it's fear. Fear of trial and error, which is how many of us learn these things.

:shrug:

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. My first laptop

was a 286 attari... it was 500 something of RAM (OOOHHH) and no hard drive

These days, as you said, my hand held has far more power

As to Vista... if you use MS products you should be ok. After that, I'm batting 500 installing software

[Mythsaje]

24. She spent the first couple days bitching

about how some of her programs didn't want to work right. But with enough finagling, she managed to get it all together. Seems to work for her now.

When I upgrade, probably sometime next year, I'll have to get used to it too.

I'd go mac, but they're just too expensive.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. I'm going MAC becuase I've had it with the

headaches with the gaming machine.

It took six hours to install dreamweaver, and that is not acceptable

It was either mac, or get a basement win machine and just do Linux. It's been years since I did any command line... though I may have to... some of my win software I will use an emulator.

Some of my wrting softare. I've decided not to even try my mapping, I have access to the windows box, even if one of the programs does not work well under VISTA.

If you can wait, they are releasing a new system by 2010... yep they screwed the pooch and they know it

[KatyaR]

67. That right there's a lot of the problem--they're afraid they'll "break something."

My first real job was in a word processing department in the early 80s, using dedicated word processing machines and 8-inch floppies. While I was there, we converted to desktop computers and Word Perfect. Because I was young and caught on quickly, I was tasked to help train our employees. Many of the older women in the department were terrified that something was going to blow up if they hit the wrong button, and it took a lot of time and patience to make them confortable using a computer.

I've found that most people who are not computer literate are terrified of breaking an expensive piece of equipment. It's that simple--get them past that fear, and they will start to learn very quickly. However, I'm still amazed at how many people who use computers at work don't use them at home--I have a very good friend who hardly knows anything about the internet because she "just can't sit still that long." :eyes:

My first personal computer--a Commodore 64--with TWO floppy drives, a dot-matrix printer, and a 64K modem. I soon found CompuServe, and the world was mine . . . . :bounce:

Oh, and I'm female, BTW.

[Mythsaje]

150. My wife was running BBSs back in the eighties...

I think it has very little to do with gender.

[xchrom]

17. i'm just glad i can turn this damn thing on and get to DU.

but you do underscore a problem.

we are becoming a specialized econmy - a bit like medicine -- there are surgeons, osteopaths, etc.

the problem with that is there isn't enough diversity in the economy to with stand economic ''colds'' -- and that's a problem -- a big one.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

19. Paint with broad brushes much?

I'm older than dirt, but despite my decrepitude I am able to do all kinds of things with computers (of which I have six, not counting the one at work). So can my 88-year-old dad, who spends much of his time surfing the net and scanning old slides as .jpg files. And I know more than a few people a lot younger than I am who can barely figure out how to turn the damn things on.

[OzarkDem]

28. Not really

As I mentioned in a previous post, I help a lot of people who have lost jobs due to serious illness and try to help them re-enter the workforce. Without computer skills, many really face a lot of problems.

As an employer interviewing people, I see a lot of people who have lost jobs and struggle to find news ones as computer skills become more of a requirement.

[undeterred]

20. I am a 50 yr old female computer tech

and I don't think its quite that bad. But I wish there were more female computer professionals. I did a gig at a technical college recently. They had an excellent networking program- guess what there were 16 young men in it and no women. I taught one class in a "helpdesk" course which was filled with women. The females are self-selecting the lower paying easier part of IT. Not good.

[Nite Owl]

25. Most of the people I know

are very good with email and research on computers. I really don't know anyone who isn't. It's the viruses etc that pose the problem. They get the scans but don't actually run them then get all sorts of bad stuff from letting the kids go to myspace etc.

[Drum]

26. Hmmmph!

Here's something a friend sent on to me only yesterday...well, I think it was yesterday...lemme see....

---

STUNNING SENIOR MOMENT

A very self-important college freshman attending a recent football game, took it upon himself to explain to a senior citizen sitting next to him why it was impossible for the older generation to understand his generation.

"You grew up in a different world, actually an almost primitive one," the student said, loud enough for many of those nearby to hear. "The young people of today grew up with television, jet planes, space travel, man walking on the moon, our spaceships have visited Mars. We have nuclear energy, electric and hydrogen cars, computers with DSL, bsp; light-speed processing ..and,"
pausing to take another drink of beer.

The Senior took advantage of the break in the student's litany and said, "You're right, son. We didn't have those things when we were young.....so we invented them. Now, you arrogant little bastard, what are you doing for the next generation?"

The applause was resounding...

[greatauntoftriplets]

30. :)

:thumbsup:

[Tunkamerica]

56. That's an old joke that's been updated

who knows how old and which generation it was actually talking about.

[libodem]

27. I'm in that horrible group

I never learned to type very well and always thought computers were 'scary'. In the 90's i bought one for the kids and we were always hooked up to the internet. All the computer terms were mysterious to me RAM, hard drive, floppydisc, megabytes, I still don't know what they mean. I can point and click the mouse and have had some job experience were the computer work was all point and click. My son tried to show me a few things but I couldn't learn from him. He made it look pretty easy but I couldn't figure out what he'd done when I would try it. I think I do need to take a class. I'd give my (something important) to be able to cut and paste so I could put pieces of articles into a post. I even have a scanner/printer, now but I don't understand the photobucket or putting pictures from the scanner on the internet. I'm not a real fast maze learner but used to have an IQ somewhere between 130 and 140 so I'm not stupid. I thought computers were for generation 'X' and I could just avoid them for the rest of my life. Then I nearly became hopelessly insane during the '04 election cycle. After I started to dress and shower again (I'm exaggerating) I heard some Pundit bitching about DU and checked it out. My 20 something made me a computer out of spare parts from around the house and reluctantly I have learned to find home row and type with all ten fingers.

[OzarkDem]

43. Good for you!

I think computer classes are an excellent idea. A friend of mine was going through a divorce and was worried about getting back into the workforce after being a stay at home mom. She took some classes in Office, etc. at the local community college and was able to get into a job that paid at least $30,000 more a year with real benefits.

You never know what will happen in life and its best to be prepared.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

57. Here's how to put pieces of articles in a post:

Point your mouse at the beginning of the text that you want to copy. It should turn into what looks like a Capitol I. Drag your mouse over the text. That should highlight the section. Then right click your mouse (the right side of the mouse). There should be a list of commands. Scroll down to 'copy' & left click. Go you your post & then right click. Again, there's a list of commands. Right click on 'paste'& the copied text should appear.

[Breeze54]

64. Try reading the HELP files that come with your

(OS) Operating System.

Click START (bottom left) then click HELP!

There is a lot of information there to answer your questions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Similar story with my mom

her first computer, we were sent to Hawaii and we really didn't want to take it, since we were going to get another one. We GAVE the old work horse to my parents who otherwise would have never gotten one.

That machine finally gave up the ghost, but my mother has leanred some of the basics

Other things, I don't try to teach her, I just write what she needs to do step by step and print it

Ask your son to do the same. That works with my mom, she is what 78 now?

[sandnsea]

159. PM Me ANY time

I do not talk computer. I've helped a lot of people figure out what they want to do because of that. I actually do have a lot of patience when it comes to helping people learn new tasks. Seriously, any time. Everybody should be able to post a picture of their children or grandchildren!! :)

[SoCalDem]

162. My oldest son is a computer guy too, and whenever he scolds me

for not remembering how to do something he SHOWED ME TWICE.. I gently remind him that he pooped his pants a lot when I was potty training him :)

seriously though.. get an UNrelated young person to show you how to do the things you want to learn..

the photo thing is easy..I even figured it out..

We used to have a very long "try this out..and how do I do this?" thread ..I'll look for it and PM it to you..

[Possumpoint]

31. I Resent The Posting

I'm 61 years old and have been using computers from the late 1980's. Retired from a middle management position. Have taken several computer classes at the local community college. Learned to program Dbase III+ with basic code. Use Access and Excel now.

The real bitch is I can't find a job. No one seems to want to hire some one my age. Well, some will but I don't want to work as a greeter at Wally World.

I understand the attitude some people my age have. Things keep getting more complicated and it's a hassle. To this day I've never used my cell phone to text someone. Why? I can still talk and/or leave a voice mail. Using my phone to take pictures or videos seems alien but I've done it.

[OzarkDem]

44. That's so unfair

As an employer, I'm probably a little different in that I want to hire people who are older and more experienced in other areas. It seems not everyone is looking at it that way and they should. If you lived in my area, I would definitely hire you.

[NJCher]

143. yeah, well, just for the record

I do not think you are out of line for your thinking. You've had quite a number of people say they resent your post or find it condescending or whatever but I do not. What is the matter with people that they can't spend some time, effort and energy to learn something that can do so much for them? Are they that stuck in their ways? We're talking self improvement here! Is that such a difficulty?!?

I'll tell you what was an eye-opener. When I was in Web developer school about eight years ago, the immigrants in that class left the Americans in the dust. They were motivated and tenacious.

I think as a people, many Americans are complacent. Oh forget the euphemism. Americans--many of them, anyway--are just plain damned lazy.



Cher

[zalinda]

33. People in our age group, although I'm 58 and a nerd

have to have a reason to use a computer. My sister, who lives in Arkansas, is a manager of a small store. She can apparently use the computer to do the books, but that is all. She has a computer at home, but calls me when she needs help. I sent her some videos, and had to talk her through installing a video player on her machine. Wow, she is an idiot! I couldn't believe how dumbed down I had to talk, to get her through it. Oh, and she's 55.

On the other hand, there are women who have gotten into machine embroidery and they are quite proficient. Not only did they learn how to operate an expensive sewing/embroidery machine, some even learned how to digitize the designs, which is not an easy task. You find a lot of these women who have found mailing lists, down loadable designs, and instruction on the Internet. There is well over 30,000 of them, some have started businesses, and some just enjoy the company.

Another area where there are a lot of women using the Internet and computers is in genealogy.

zalinda

[regnaD kciN]

34. What planet do you live on...???

Virtually everyone I know of in that age group does practically everything on computer. Operating a computer is as second-nature to them as driving a car.

:wtf:

[OzarkDem]

60. Tell me where you live

I'm moving there. :hi:

[NeedleCast]

36. Run Into It All The Time

I am an IT Trainer for Department of Justice. I travel to immigration courts across the country to teach the court staff new software and the boomer generation, for the most part, lacks essential computer skills. Most of them don't know more about computers other than how to turn it on, use E-mail and use the one or two programs that are vital to their job. Beyond that, they're lost. In an era that is increasingly digitalized, knowing computer basics is going to be a must in just about any white collar position, and even some positions that are classically blue collar. Even in the food service industries, construction, etc. computers are becoming more and more prevalent.

My dad (who turns 60 today, happy B-day pops!) has become pretty decent with a computer, but my mom, other than being vaguely aware of their existence, has no idea what a computer can do. My dad has diabetes, and it's highly likely my mom will out-live him and this worries me, because all their finances, many of their important records and other personal stuff...all on the computer. Now, every time I go home to see the folks, I make it a point to make sure my mom learns something about the computer.

Boomers, if you lack computer skills, you really should try to hit up a college class at the local community college or whatever is in your area and gain some basic computer information. I'll be worth your while, I promise.

[Ms. Toad]

38. Get out much?

I'm in that age range (and am female), and so is my spouse (age range and gender). I've been using computers since the late 70s (when the capabilities my laptop now has required the basement of my college library to contain). I either do or have programmed, analyzed programs written by others, designed web pages, set up databases, taught, administered a school computer system (before networks), tested early network systems for IBM, restored old family photographs, carried on correspondence, created and used power point presentations, filed legal documents, shopped with, and currently spend several hours a day using one (or more). I (and/or my family) own 4 (that work). My spouse programmed early computers, and currently uses one regularly. I wouldn't use outlook if you paid me to - you might want to consider something less prone to attract viruses for yourself.

My father (in his 70s) also uses one regularly.

Our computer guru is in that age range, and all of the staff in the office in which I work is in or near that age range and all are female and computer literate. My neighbor across the street is older than I am, solidly blue collar, and uses his computer regularly to correspond with his children and grandchildren.

[OzarkDem]

47. It may be the area I live in

or the field (social services) but about 2/3 of the people I interviewed who were baby boomer age w/ degrees didn't have much in the way of computer skills.

Our area is proud of their blue collar, industrial roots, but most who grow up here and get good skills end up leaving.

[Cleita]

39. I'm the generation before the boomers. We and many of the

boomers never got taught computer skills in school. It's very hard if you learned it as an adult like I did. It's like trying to learn a foreign language as an adult. You never are really never fully fluent in it, no matter how hard you try. I still am awkward at the computer myself and many who grew up in a pre-PCcomputer world don't even try. I have a friend, older than me, who only knows how to send email. I can't even explain to her how to click on a link to a website. She just doesn't get it. I can't show her because we live two hundred miles apart. There is no one to show her where she lives because they are all old people in a senior park. Yet before she retired she was trained to use one program for her job and that's all she knows to use. She can't seem to learn anything else.

[Elwood P Dowd]

40. I'm 60 and didn't get a computer until the 1990s.

Only had a couple of friends my age that had one then. My oldest brother-in-law was buying computers in the 1980s. My two sisters (63 and 56) were using IBM Windows machines in the early 1990s. I think it was Windows 3.1 at that time. I decided to go with an Apple using OS 7.5 and moved on up over the years to 8.6, 9.1, and now 10.4.10 Tiger.

I have two living uncles in their 80s who use computers, but they're both retired engineers who have always enjoyed playing with electronics.

You would be surprised how many people, both young and old, who have zero typing skills. I took typing in high school (1962), so I'm rare compared to most of my friends and relatives. It's really funny sometimes watching these people trying to type on a small laptop.

[Breeze54]

42. The computer illiterate used to keep me employed at my help desk!

But then outsourcing stepped in. :grr: I had calls from every age group.
As young as ten and as old as 86. A lot of people don't understand the
basics of how to maintain their computers or their cars! When I was in
school, most of my computer classmates were in their mid 30's to their 70's!
And there were a lot of women in those classes! I don't believe that people
in their 40's and 50's are clueless about computers at all. Perhaps the real
problem is that people do not take the time to read the instructions.

That would be my guess and has been my experience.

*hint* You have to turn it on! :rofl:

[Blue_In_AK]

45. I'm 61 tomorrow

and I do just fine with computers. Granted, I don't know everything about everything, but I certainly know enough to find what I'm looking for on the internet, send/receive e-mails, edit photos, word process until my fingers bleed, and everything else I need to do. I don't have much use for spread sheets in what I do, but I can certainly transcribe using FTR Gold. If there's something I need to do that I don't know how to do, I know where to go.

I think it's dangerous to generalize about age groups.

[treestar]

46. Not having had it in school, probably

When I went school, none of this was happening or available.

I notice the older generation still loves the phone. When they were young, it was cool to get a phone call.

If you are older, you have to be self taught for these things, or have worked in a place where you learned it.

[Breeze54]

48. Umm, there are schools and adult learning classes and a lot

of the senior centers, that I have seen, have computer labs. ;)

[Trillo]

66. Wearing rose-colored glasses, I see. n/t

[Breeze54]

76. Huh? Why do you say that?

There are many ways for people to seek out computer education, if they choose to look for it.

[Trillo]

91. The post you replied to was addressing mostly the past.

Your text message doesn't address those points made at all (at least 75% of the sentences). It's like those points aren't even there: "Rose-Colored Glasses."

[treestar]

98. That takes more motivation than it does if you're young and it's

just there in school. Today's 10 year old, it's part of their world.

Someone older has to seek out a class, and that's going to limit it to those motivated.

[Clark2008]

51. Train 'em.

Send them to the New Horizons in your area.

Of course, this is a shameless plug since I work for NH, but, chances are you don't live in my town; therefore, my boss's franchise wouldn't make any money on it, so it's not so shameless. :)

Seriously, if more bosses would spend the $250 on training, people wouldn't have this problem.

[Breeze54]

55. Just get "Video Professor" and do the training in-house!

;)

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[KoKo]

96. Is Video Professor really that good?

:shrug: You've gotta understand anyone who posts on CNN and Cables...is sort of suspect to me...but I need to learn EXCELL...and I don't like it....the way it's laid out that my screen can't see the whole ting...and it's just not "intuitive to me." :shug:

[Clark2008]

130. Not the same - seriously.

I've used web/computer-based training and taken classes. The classroom instruction for business needs is far superior to web/computer-based training for personal needs.

I'm actually looking for another job, therefore, I'm not in love with my own, but I truly understand the need for business training over personal training now.

[BlackVelvet04]

52. Some people in the baby boomers age group are just so busy

with their life they don't take the time to sit down and learn new technology. It's harder to learn and to remember as you age.

I found I had an affinity for computers and have spent many hours learning and training. I've taught myself with the use of books and tutorial cd's and a couple of college courses.

At my last job I was able to network 5 computers and keep the network up and running. I was the computer guru and I just find it fun. Many people my age find computers intimidating.

[Jed Dilligan]

53. I run into that all the time in my work

Academics in charge of million-dollar budgets who have never opened Excel in their lives.

Have you noticed the young kids now are scary-smart when it comes to technology? My friend's daughter could change DVDs and play them before she could talk.

[Warren Stupidity]

54. Uh, we like invented all the shit you are complaining we don't know how to use.

Some of us might not have bothered to learn how to use techno-junk, but the rest of us created this fucked up world we find ourselves in with all these half-bork'd pc's, unusable cell phones, shitty pda's, bad interfaces getting worse, and we developed all the crappy content on all the lousy new media we invented too. Does any of it actually work well? Maybe the gps navigators, and that is about it. We are passing it on to you young'ns and good riddance. Good luck. Hope you do better than we did, which is a real low bar indeed.

[BlooInBloo]

70. LOL! Most. Inclusive. "We". Ever!!!! And false to boot.

[Warren Stupidity]

74. Alright we didn't invent all of it.

But we did invent most of it. The technology we are all using was developed in the 70s, 80s, and 90s primarily by boomers, based on earlier work by the WWI and Korean War generations. We are still at it in the 00's.

Which widely used technology is not a boomer invented product?

[BlooInBloo]

75. The transitor computer. For the win.

[Warren Stupidity]

78. You are using a mainframe at home?

As I mentioned, the stuff we invented, like the PC, was based on earlier work by earlier generations. The point is, as I stated, this stuff we supposedly don't know how to use is stuff we invented: the pc, the mac, cellphones, email, the internet, the web, the spread sheet, word, unix, windows, cds, dvds; which of the crap you are using right now is not a boomer product?

[BlooInBloo]

80. Everthing you named is just transistor computers. Which were NOT invented...

... by the babyboomer generation.

What is even the RELEVANCE of your talk of "mainframes"? :rofl:

The internet was also not created by people of the babyboomer generation.

[mudesi]

83. Wow. You are wronger than wrong

I'm not a baby boomer, but I can recognize the facts.

The Internet was created in the 1960s. Sorry, but that's baby boomer territory.

[BlooInBloo]

84. (shrug) Doesn't contradict what I said.

[mudesi]

87. "The internet was also not created by people of the babyboomer generation."

That's what you said. Perhaps you confuse HTTP and HTML, which was created in the 90s, with "The Internet".

[BlooInBloo]

89. Which is substantively different from what you said.

[Warren Stupidity]

124. The web's inventor is a boomer.

Tim Berners-Lee, born 1955. That includes the first specification of HTML in 1991 by Berners-Lee, and the development and specification of HTTP by the W3C (headed by Berners-Lee again) and the IETF. The IETF itself is a notorious collection of boomers.

[BlooInBloo]

146. Bullshit. Kleinrock has an infinitely better claim...

... HTML - :rofl:

EDIT: As if html is relevant to ANYTHING in this discussion.

EDITEDIT: Misread your post - my bad. Yah, he invented *the web*.

[Warren Stupidity]

167. The irony of "As if html is relevant to ANYTHING in this discussion"

is undoubtedly lost on you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. The Car... I mean this generation is as old as the first

Model T?

:-)

[Writer]

163. GENERATION WARS!

:P

The X'ers are the one's that brought that technology to life via the WWW. They also pioneered digitization efforts on various platforms (cell phones; computers; televised technologies). Don't forget that!

[TahitiNut]

107. Actually, it was us pre-boomers that did that.

There's not a single base software technology employed on the home computers of today that wasn't in R&D in the 70s - much of it at PARC - or on Unix or Multics systems in the same decade. The first commerical relational database was on the Multics platform. The conceptual GUI folks now call Windows was researched and developed at PARC. The ethernet was "invented" and developed at PARC by Boggs and Metcalf. The Internet itself was developed and implemented primarily in the 70s ... and I've been using the Internet myself since the late 70s. The initial development of HTML was a variation on Markup Languages used since the 60s and HTTP is just another Internet Protocol that follows the rules developed in the 70s.

I've been at least peripherally involved in these technologies since 1967, before I went to Nam, and ever since through the 90s. Hell, I was even involved in the creation of collegiate Computer Science curricula standards through an ACM Working Group back BEFORE CompSci had a curriculum in the 70s ... before which CompSci was either a hodge-podge of Applied Math or Electrical Engineering courses.

[BlooInBloo]

111. Or Bell Labs. Or IBM. Can't think of any other major foci, except individual universities...

... and the gub-ment.

[TahitiNut]

112. Yep. Bell Labs in Holmdel, NJ and the IBM Research Labs.

The universities that stood out were UC Berzerkley, Carnegie-Mellon, MIT, and Cal Tech. University of Waterloo in Canada was a brain trust, too. Compiler/language development.

Virtually everyone agreed, however, that the best work was being done at PARC. It was a "Mecca" in those days.

[BlooInBloo]

114. Heh. "Virtually".

[Warren Stupidity]

121. In the 70's we were in our 20's and 30s

and working at bell labs and xerox parc and developing the network protocols at BB&N and Berkeley. Yes of course all of the pc and network stuff is based on earlier work. Heck you were working at that time - you be a boomer dude.

You all are skirting the big ones: the mac and the pc, windows and whatever it is that runs on a mac these days, and the web are creatures pure and simple of the boomers who built and marketed them(based on earlier work of course).

[TahitiNut]

126. In the early 70s, the oldest boomers had just completed their undergraduate work ...

... and had taken their entry-level jobs catching up on the work that was being done. The youngest boomers were still looking forward to taking the training wheels off their tricycles.

I didn't miss the Mac or Windows at all. The Mac runs a GUI over a version of Unix. As I noted in my first reply post, that's technology founded on work that was extensively done in the 70s -- the GUI mostly at PARC! Hell, I was privy to work done there that neither the Mac nor Microshit has even gotten close to. It was NOT "work done by the boomers." The boomers were involved in the follow-on development, but they stood on the shoulders of giants in the craft.

[jody]

58. I agree although DU has an active contingent in that age group that will protest the point you make.

The problem however is not limited to the 40-60 age group but to younger groups also.

IMO if a child today does not become computer literate, she/he will have a difficult time finding a job/position that offers them an opportunity for a fulfilling life and to become a productive member of society.

Sad, but that's life in the 21st century!

[mcscajun]

62. I think it must be your area. I'm 56 (almost) and can make my PC spin like a top.

I use the 'Net for much, more than e-mail, and train and support my friends and family to do likewise.

I started with a Commodore 64 back in the day, typing assembler code into it and doing checksums to play early computer games, later on, at the bank I worked at, worked on a dual diskette IBM XT (you know, no hard drive: one diskette for the program, the other for the data) spec'd our first IBM AT purchase (:woohoo: Hard Drive!) taught myself DOS, dBase III+, and created programs to monitor project workflow, learned Lotus 1-2-3, word processing (of course) mainframe system security, Jobcard JCL, and moved up from there, doing Network Support and training.

I've designed forms using the old Lasersoft program, worked with Microsoft Access, written macros in Word and small programs in Excel. Learning Lotus Notes, HTML, and Javascript, I became a Notes developer and system liaison to our outside web developers. PowerPoint? Child's play.

What am I doing these days? After I started training in Java, my department was eliminated and the jobs sent to India, so I'm doing secretarial work at my doctor's office. Every once in a blue moon, I pick up some PC work on the side for a little spare cash, but the Geek Squad has made that kind of work scarce indeed.

Two of our women patients around my age, women who are also IT professionals, were in the office not long ago complaining about their lack of ability to find work suitable to their talents and experience.

Boomers who know PCs and have other computer skills? We're out here, in heaps across the Northeast particularly, believe me, but the kids coming up behind us who grew up on computers and cell phones and iPods AND have their BS in Computer Science (or Electrical Engineering, or other IT degrees) combined with the pressures of offshoring/outsourcing, are rendering us obsolete. No matter how much retraining we could get, we can't compete with those with equal (or perhaps better) skills who will work for far, far, FAR less than we have learned to expect, or indeed, need.

I've seen the ads for people with computer skills in the Northeast: a laundry list of hard-won, highly technical skills, with entry-level salaries. It's way past depressing. :(

Sorry you can't find the skillset you need where you are, but keep looking, it isn't generational.

[OzarkDem]

79. Seriously, something to think about

People looking for IT work or even those with good computer skills should consider looking in the "rust-belt" industrial areas if you don't mind uprooting. There's a pretty serious lack of skilled professionals in this area.

[Trillo]

63. No computers in public schools.

When I went to public high schools, there were no computers for students; if they did have them somewhere, they were carefully hidden away in some special vault or cavern, with only a few having access.

The public and High School libraries at the time all had paper card catalogs.

I was lucky that a private school I went to for slightly over one year (around mid-70s had a computer room that was open to all students during recreation periods, it was mainframe based and the computer room had terminals). I started playing with some basic programs, trading off time there with time in the chess room, but then that school expelled me.

Public high schools had zero computers, so far as I could tell.

[Withywindle]

102. This was still true when I was in school.

And I'm only 38 - this was high school in the 80s. I never even really saw a computer more than once or twice til college (and never used one very much until after).

Appalachia, y'know. Underfunded.

I hope the role of class differences doesn't get minimized in this discussed.

[kineneb]

172. we had big programable calculators, with card readers

so I learned to program math equations in octal machine code. I haven't had the need to do much programming, but I am a power graphics/typesetting user; so much so that I switched to using Linux around 5 years ago. (there were sooo many blue screens that I said to heck w/Windoz)

oh, high school class of 1976...

[BlooInBloo]

65. Wrong generation. Like learning to speak a language.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. Maybe this is a situation peculiar to your part of the country

My church (1500 members) communicates with its members almost exclusively by e-mail, as do its subgroups, such as the choir and the environmental committee. The only people who are unreachable that way are the elderly, and even some of them are computer literate.

Just about everyone else has access to e-mail either at home or through work.

I'm in Minneapolis, by the way.

[sandyd921]

73. Just turned 60 and do fine

with the computer applications I need for my job and use in my daily life including e-mail and working with attachments, surfing the web, PowerPoint presentations, the basics of Excel, etc. Are there applications I don't know? Sure! However, I am confident that I can learn whatever I need to know. Since I got my first computer back in the mid-80's, I've taught myself any applications I needed to know. In general I'd say I'm pretty comfortable with technology. Besides computer stuff, I teach distance ed university classes through a video conferencing system. There are lots of things I can't do with a computer, but if I have no use for them in my present life, I don't worry about it. When and if I need them, I'll learn them. There's not enough time for all the things I want to do in this life, let alone worrying about things I don't need at the present time.

[TreasonousBastard]

77. Coupla small points here...

First, I'm 60 and I've been playing with computers since the 70's. Before I fooled around with FORTH and BASIC programming back then, I knew a lot of people my age, including a number of women, who grew up with machine coding old monsters that still had tubes. Did a little machine coding myself and burned a few ROM chips.

You're talking about spreadsheets and stuff. Me, I spent 20 years as an insurance underwriter and never once had to type my own letter or put numbers into little boxes. Well, OK, once in a while a did my own statistical analysis, but we usually had other people to do these things. I fooled around with ad copy, graphics, and other stuff in other jobs, but never had to draw a picture. We ahd artists who did that. Did some product photography, too, but we didn't have Photoshop back then-- it was all in the setup, maybe with some minor retouching.

Spent some time in sales and tried to come up with a decent database or spreadsheet to track contacts and sales, but found a little notebook was actually faster, easier, and more accurate. I realized that if I ever had enough data to require a database, I would also need to hire an assistant to enter all that data.

So, What you want is not computer skills, but to combine two jobs-- thinking and doing-- into one. Nature abhores a vacuum, and now that computers can do really neat spreadsheets, every stupid little project has to have someone (the project leader, of course) spend hours working out macros and entering data.

And everyone, regardless of their artistic talents, or utter lack of them, must become an art director, copy editor, and layout expert for each project coming down the pike.

And, don't even THINK of getting me started on Powerpoint which just might be the biggest timewaster the planet has seen since masturbation was discovered.

Anyway, yeah, the completely computer illiterate do have a tough time fitting in a lot of places, but I don't buy blaming the failure of a movement, or business, on them.

[OzarkDem]

81. Good points

I learned the same thing - you can be much better and productive at what you do if you learn to integrate some computer skills into it. Incorporating some basic computer knowledge into your job can save a lot of time and effort.

Our business will do fine, but only because I'll have to eventually replace these people with some who have better computer skills, which means they'll probably be younger, too. I'm too savvy a businessperson to let things slide to protect an employee. It sounds harsh, but our business is helping people in desperate need of assistance and the client's needs come before the employees.

[mcscajun]

85. Love your comment on PowerPoint!

:rofl:

[NJCher]

145. misused

I think Treasonous Bastard's comments are interesting, too. I disagree on Powerpoint, but those of you who dislike it are in good company. Edward Tufte loathes it.

I teach speech communication and show my students how to use Powerpoint with pictures. It's a whole different animal when communicating with images.



Cher

[mcscajun]

160. You're right; it Is misused.

Most PowerPoint presentations I attended in the corporation I worked at for 32 years were pure bullet points with embellishments and animations. B-O-R-I-N-G. I could read the bullet points faster than the speaker could, and then what's the point? But the folks who put them together sure wasted time animating them and doing cool dissolves and fades. Wow. :sarcasm:

Pictures? Forget about it. I'm sure there are examples out there of PowerPoint used properly; I've just never seen any (that weren't joke files -- those are mostly good.)

[pitohui]

82. i don't know anyone under 80 who can't use email and download attachments

i think it's safe to say that your company has some terrible hiring practices if you have found the two women in america who don't know how to use email

indeed there are so many people who style themselves "web designers" and "desktop publishers" that they're a nuisance underfoot, doing that and a nickle won't even get you a cup of coffee

my subject line is misleading, actually most people i know over 80 who don't have dementia are also online as well

p.s. most of my contacts are in the south or nevada

i'm curious what you mean by "rust belt" exactly, pennsylvania? maybe i should go up there and get a job out of the hurricane zone!

[Igel]

88. I've run into the problem off and on.

I view it the same way I view learning a second language.

If you don't think there's a good reason to learn a second language, you won't (this covers a multitude of factors that could be listed separately). You must be motivated.

If you don't have comprehensible and appropriate input to learn from, you won't. You must find it comprehensible and learnable.

If you don't have enough time and energy to put into it, you won't. You must be able to put forth appropriate effort.

If you must have at least a minimum aptitude for it, otherwise you'll underachieve for your cohort, and you won't. You must not become discouraged.

If you have only negative experiences--embarrassment, humiliation--you won't. You must not be inhibited.

Most of the people I know that have failed to acquire needed computer skills fail in at least one or two areas.

[Trillo]

94. One of your sentences hit me hard with its lucidity.

"If you have only negative experiences--embarrassment, humiliation--you won't. You must not be inhibited."

However, I'd like to suggest that just like positive reinforcement can be intermittent and highly effective, intermittent negative reinforcement is likely also a strong motivator.

Therefore, I'd strike the word "only".

[OzarkDem]

97. It may sound harsh, but

in today's shrinking job market, not updating vital skills because you've had some negative experiences is going to keep you in a low paying job or unemployed.

There are a lot of computer classes available and they're well worth the investment to keep yourself in a good paying job for the future. I suggest doing some research to find good quality training and get it done.

[Trillo]

99. Are you addressing me?

Or my point?

edited to add: Did you have trouble understanding my point?

[Nikia]

92. In regards to your particuliar problem,

Could you train them in the specific things that they need to do with the computer. Maybe print out a paper with step by step instructions.
It might be nice to preset some of the settings for the documents that they would be frequently creating. Be sure this is the same for all computers on the network. Make sure that your system is in good working order.
Maybe you feel that you shouldn't have to do this, but if your employees are otherwise well qualified and experienced in their primary job duties, you should do everything possible to make the computer part less difficult for them.
Personally, I know how to do certain things on the computer very well, but not other things. It may take me a while to do things on the computer that I have not encountered before. I am in my later 20's so I did have computers when I was younger.
The business where I work still does a lot of business by mail and fax. Only one computer has internet access. The president of the company does not have a computer in his office. The only area that my computer skills are improving in at that job is fixing the margins of document because the computers have different versions of Excel.

[Faux pas]

93. I'm 58 and didn't own a computer until 2003. The computers I

used in the jobs I had were for writing letters and making up forms. The other computers that were available were data entry and informational only.
I'm no computer genius, but everything I know has been self taught. I'm retired and have no need to know spread sheets and I'm perfectly happy not knowing anything about them. Maybe you should test people before you hire them....just sayin'.

[OzarkDem]

95. I'll be testing the next time

I've learned a lot about how people will exaggerate their skills on applications and in interviews.

I'm requiring a computer skills test in the future.

[Faux pas]

142. Sounds like a good idea. Save yourself some time and

aggravation. :)

[IDemo]

100. Just turned 50, didn't touch a pc until after age 35

My first and only attempt at a webpage was done in Notepad on a 486 and won an award. Since then, I have been self taught in Visual Basic programming and have done database work for my current employer as well as contract work for an independent business. Have worked on Win 3.1 - XP, Linux, and Unix. Built the beige box I am typing this on, and have built numerous others at work.

And, I'm looking at possibly moving over to a Mac after Leopard releases shortly. No Vista for me, at least until a couple of service packs out.

[Trillo]

101. What are the statistics?

Or is this all anecdotal mud slinging?

[OzarkDem]

103. Anecdotal

not mudslinging.

Its a serious problem for anyone without adequate skills in a shrinking job market.

I'm sure you might find numbers in the census or labor stats, but it would be difficult to prove if self-reporting.

[Trillo]

105. I beg to differ.

This OP was written to a largely computer literate market. What is the point of such belittling other than telling everyone how inadequate they are?

Feels like PsyOps.

[OzarkDem]

109. Try re-reading it

It wasn't intended to be belittling. Sorry you interpreted it that way.

[Trillo]

115. Sorry here, too. The belittling is a perception.

What is belittling is the multiple replies that the answer is always more education.

Some of us will never go back to school (without a gun held against us), suggesting that is the only alternative is simply insulting. I have about 1200 (estimate of the present moment, many others have been disposed of long ago) books at home, many of them read, many of them dreck, but just because I'm a high school dropout (badge I proudly wear even though it isn't the precise truth), indeed was trained by multiple expulsions that dropping out was the only way to approach life, doesn't mean anything regarding accumulated knowledge.

So I took the educators' best personal advice and ran with it, so what? That lesson so many schools sought to impress is deeply embedded, it will, with hope, pass on the day I die.

The last thing I, and I presume many others (since psychology 101 taught me that I was much more similar to others than different) want to hear about is how education is the be all end all holy grail of everything that ails.

That is nothing more than naked propaganda.

[OzarkDem]

118. Its not necessarily a degree that's needed

its just training in how to use the most common types of computer software in office environments. People don't need degrees, just some level of proficiency training.

No one HAS to do it, but they'll eventually find themselves with steadily declining wages or job security if they don't.

[alarimer]

104. This has not been my experience

Most of the people I know, of all ages, are extremely computer literate. As are my parents and their siblings (50's to 60's). Even my grandmother was reasonably computer literate in her 80's.

[in_cog_ni_to]

106. I'm in that age group too and am a self taught computer user. While it took me FOREVER

to figure out that 'copy/paste' thingy, I did teach myself how to do it. I can download attachments, open zip files, install software, uninstall crappy software, I've never had the need to create a spreadsheet for anything, so I can't say I know how to do that, I can send emails, Google until my heart's content to look things up on the Internets, but one thing I've never been able to figure out is how to set up my Outlook.:shrug: To set it up it asks for technical shit that I have NO CLUE what they're asking for, so I don't use Outlook. What do I need it for?:7

I am the computer person in our house...if you can believe THAT!:crazy: Any time my husband or son have a problem with their computer or printer, I am the one who has to figure out what the hell is wrong. I am the one who set up the Wireless system in the house and connected the computers to it, I install all printer/copier software and set them up. I can upload digital pics from my camera, edit them and do whatever I want with them...email or use in some other program. Really, that's how I've learned...by DOING. I still consider myself computer illiterate though because I have no clue about technical stuff.... I could never create a web site or do database development, but I also haven't tried those, so maybe I could? I dunno...

I sometimes have to come to DU for help and always get great advice! Best advice EVER when my computer kept crashing and running like a snail...UNINSTALL NORTON ANTI-VIRUS, GO TO NORTON'S WEB SITE AND DOWNLOAD THEIR UNINSTALLER TO GET RID OF ALL OF THE NORTON PROGRAM, DOWNLOAD MOZILLA FIREFOX, DOWNLOAD AVG ANTI-VIRUS (FREE), DOWNLOAD SPYWARE BLASTER (FREE), AND DOWNLOAD SPYBOT (FREE). My computer has been terrific ever since.:) I also Downloaded Comodo Firewall for FREE....terrific Firewall.

Why some Baby Boomers don't know how to use their computer is probably because they aren't as interested in it? Don't use it very often? Don't have the NEED to learn it?

I know when I was was a Licensed Optician, we never used computers AT ALL (1970s-1990). When I left the field, they were just beginning to computerize the office. I have since been making Stained Glass windows and lamps...never needed a computer for that either. I had to give that up when I found out I was pregnant because of the lead in the solder. I raised my son...didn't need a computer for that.;) Now, I'm doing Jewelry repair and design. I don't need a computer for that either, so maybe they have just never had the need for learning how to use a computer? You also need to have a desire to want to learn it because they can be aggravating as hell! If you don't have the desire to learn how to use it, it would be VERY easy to just say to hell with it and use it for shopping ONLY.

I do want to learn how to design a web site though...someday. That could be fun. Maybe.:scared:

[Trillo]

108. There are some people that shouldn't be around sensitive computer equipment.

They spend half the day screwing up their email system, deleting stuff from the network and messing up their connection to the office printers. I spend the rest of the day fixing it all only to see them come in the next day and do it again.

Either they have a training problem (which by the way is your deficiency), or they're some of those folks who just have 'less than zero' aptitude for it. In the early PC computer days, there were stories of computers that would act up only when certain people tried to operate them. If a new computer was given to them, it would also start acting up ... ad infinitum. Some thought it was some kind of electrical disturbance around that particular individual, because the problems always were centered around that particular individual.

Whatever the cause, perhaps some people should not be operating computers. We don't hear much about these types of issues anymore, perhaps because the PC has become so ubiquitous.

Whether those people can be retrained to operate them without issue is a curiosity. It's possible that no amount of training could fix their issues with the computer. Curiously, if they can be convinced that they need computer lessons, they could end up taking computer classes for the rest of their lives and still not gain any significant ground.

[OzarkDem]

113. As much as I'd like to

our business isn't able to provide extensive training in the use of computers. That's why we offer higher pay to people who already know how to use them. We train people how to use access the internet, use the network, how to access the email accounts and company files we set up for them and how to use the peripherals.

But their job description and pay scale requires they know how to use email in general, use Word, Excel, use the internet, etc. The problem for one employee is that he doesn't want to admit he doesn't know how to use these things, then tries to do things on his own. Instead of knowing how to send an email attachment or print or scan a document, he starts screwing around with Outlook and the network trying to force things to work the way he thinks they should. It ends up messing everything up for everyone else.

Both employees have problems admitting they don't know how use Word or Excel adequately and will stall around on projects and making excuses.

Problem is their skill level isn't what they claimed and doesn't fit their job description or pay level. The point is that people who expect to adapt to the marketplace and keep a good salary level need to have basic computer skills. No one is going to pay mid to middle upper level management pay for someone who can't handle the basics. Companies can't afford to hire employees to train high wage employees in basic computing skills anymore, they're going to have to learn for themselves. That may have applied back in the 80's and 90's, but not any longer.

[MadHound]

110. Why are so many Gen Xers and Yers so damn fat?

Oh, yeah, all that time spent in front of the computer.

For what it's worth, you're being pretty damn broad brush in your attack. I know lots of boomers and older who can do wonders with computers. After all, it was the boomers and older generation who gave birth to computers.

But darn those boomers, they, they they. . .:eyes:

[RainDog]

116. it IS an issue, and not just for boomers

I know a lot of poor people in my town who are in their 30s and they can't afford to own a computer, or they own an old one. I gave someone a computer and then he showed up not knowing one thing about it and scared away by a manual I had also given him. If those people don't use these things in everyday life, they have less exposure to others to pick up things. The public library has some basic classes and people can go there and ask as they go, but, again, some of these guys are too embarrassed to admit they don't know.

If a woman has been out of the work force b/c of child care, or has a job that's centered around making child care top priority, they too don't get skills they need. When they want to get back into the work force, they have to upgrade their skills.

A lot of people made computer stuff seem like it's theoretical physics or something, at least that's what I remember. Basically it's logic and learning a language that has been compiled by someone...and another language, or a way to operate a site and a way to present a site. Unix is easy. the issue, too, is knowing where and how to find a place to host a web page where you code.

It's not just web skills. It's also knowing how to implement those skills in ways that also generate learning.

And there is a level of frustration that goes along with computer issues -- jargon. I detest jargon, tho every group has it.

I'm nooo computer wizard, and I get really frustrated sometimes by the way things are explained when it turns out they much easier than presented. But I love to do web pages. I learn more as I go, and I am one of those digusting females who tends to be techno/number phobic and sort of a klutz when I try to, say, replace a shower massage set up... how simple can that be?? sometimes things come out all right, and sometimes I cry out of frustration. but my work usually means web page stuff, creating css's... I hate access and I'm not good at it at all. I love excel and wish it could replace access. but there are tons and tons of things I don't know, I realize.

so, yes, there are exceptions to the rule (as in the women who are obviously on it here) - but depending upon your level of education and retraining and access to free training, a lot of people who are older are somewhat intimidated by all they don't know regarding computers.

[jeffrey_X]

119. I completely disagree.

I work for a company that sells "golf" over the Internet. 100% of our sales are done online.

You know what our biggest age bracket is? 50 to 59.

[blues90]

120. Personally .

I am 58 and know how to look up things and email and add a camera . To be quite honest computers technically are as boring as one can get .

Beside that I took typing in high school witha manual type writer but I'll never get the hang of a keyboard , there is not resistence or bounce to these damn things . I am a two finger typist .

I didn't have one or use one until 1998 , never wanted one , it was my wifes suggestion .

[napi21]

122. I find it really hard to believe anyone of any age could have the

skills to prepare press releases and has ANY recent experience could possibly have the problems you described. I'm 64. I was in my 40's when I was presented with my first "personal conputer". I learned a I know from trial and error, and in the beginning, there were LOTS of errors! But I learned, and I still take the free courses offered on Pendaflex. The only people I've ever met who are so computer illiterate are those with jobs that never required their use.

I can understand how it would be quite simple for someone to accidentally disconnect from your local printer, but how in the world could they possibly have enough knowledge to "screw up" your email system? Having used a number of different email systems in the last 15 years, I don't think I could screw up the email system even if I tried!

When you hire someone, you need to do a thorough interview, and CHECK ALL REFERENCES! If they haven't displayed at least the expertiese you require, you should keep looking. If they lied and it becomes evident after they're hired that they don't have the requirements to do the job, that's what probationary periods are for!

[Liberal In Texas]

123. Huh. My wife is in her mid-50s and knows more about the computer system where she works than the IS

people do. She is self-taught.

Some of it is that some people, of any age, will never learn more than they are required to. Some will constantly be trying new things and taking them apart to see how they tick. We're in that later category.

Also, the people I see who struggle with computers are many times the same people who never learned how to type. I'm not sure if one has anything to do with the other, but it must be frustrating to have to hunt and peck on a keyboard and would make other computer operations even more annoying than they already can be.

[Le Taz Hot]

125. That's an incredibly broad brush you're painting with there.

I've been teaching computer programs since 1992 (WordPerfect 5.1 -- DOS version) and I'm 52. I know very few people my age who DON'T use a computer.

[Blue_In_AK]

127. That's about the same time I started learning "real" computers,

that exact program. They had to drag me kicking and screaming into Windows. :) I still think WordPerfect is a far superior program to Word, at least for my purposes. I think I'm using version 9 now.

We've certainly come a long way, though, in the past 40 years. When I was first a clerical person back in 1968 we still had striking typewriters (although they were electric). The company I worked for got its first computer that year. It filled a whole room. My best friend and co-worker was a keypunch operator. Then came Correcting Selectrics, which were good, but the Mag Card ruled. Then came a whole series of word processors, proto-PCs and such -- too many to even remember. I think I got my first home computer around 1994.

I don't really understand how they work, but I can make them do what I want them to.

[NJCher]

147. Can you do "The Claw?"

(WordPerfect 5.1 -- DOS version) a

And remember those garish colors?

I remember learning that program after learning Word and thinking how many more capabilities it had. And then, of course, the whole world switched to Word.



Cher

[PDenton]

128. some people just aren't wired

I grew up with computers. My first computer was a Sinclair ZX-80 in the early 1980's, then a Commodore 64 and a Commodore Amiga later. I got an IBM in 1993, and in college in 1995 I had one as well and I've been using one ever since. I grew up with computers, they are as much a part of my life as watching TV, in fact probably moreso.

For alot of people, they just can't imagine what a computer can do for them. It is that simple. Their lives are not structured around interacting with computers often, if at all.

The truth is I think you'll find having computer skills doesn't matter that much anymore. It won't get you a great job, thanks to Bill Clinton and Congresses H-1B program gutting alot of low-end computer jobs. OTOH, there are some jobs where computer literacy is expected. I just don't think computer skills are a magic ticket like they were pitched in the 90's.

[scarletwoman]

129. Huh? I'm 57 years old and I totally taught myself how to use a computer in 1999. By mid-2001

I got an accounting job that was nothing BUT using a computer all day long. Every working woman I know, knows how to get around on a computer, and that includes women both older and younger than me.

It sounds to me like you are making a gross over-generalization from a very small sample.

sw

[OzarkDem]

131. I wish I were

I've interviewed dozens of people over the last several months, worked with hundreds of volunteers, dozens of committees. About 3/4 of volunteers want to come into the office and "stuff envelopes". They don't know how to enter names and addresses into the computer or even type a simple letter and print it. One poor woman begged me to give her a job since she couldn't find regular work and couldn't buy food, but it took her an entire day just to update a one page list with 10 names and addresses. Two of the treasurers we had over the years were both CPA's but couldn't use any form of computerized accounting program - only used handwritten ledgers, then typed the financial reports into Word.

[scarletwoman]

138. "it took her an entire day just to update a one page list with 10 names and addresses."

How can that happen? Didn't anyone bother showing her how to do it? Why would any organization leave some person alone to take all day on an essentially 15 minute task? That just doesn't make sense to me.

[Hekate]

132. You should investigate your local Community College &/or Continuing Ed programs,&direct people there

I don't know about your neck of the woods, but my area has an abundance of classes teaching people how to upgrade their skills. As an employer and as a leader of volunteer activists, I hope you make it a priority to help your pool of people to get the skills they so badly need. You yourself will clearly benefit by this.

As to your lament about Boomers -- that age range is 50 to 62 or thereabouts. During our first decades of employment, computer skills were arcane in the work place and unheard of in the home. They certainly were not taught in school.

Mr. H. is a programmer-analyst who started his career with PUNCH CARDS. He rode the wave from there to where we are now. A number of years ago he went to teach Computer Information Systems at the community college, where a lot of his students were people with Bachelor's degrees, people in mid-career upgrading their skills. The people who teach the office suite are a different division, as are the people who teach hardware.

When I went back to work after my divorce in 1980 I used a typewriter. The word processing specialist in my office used a machine that had NO SCREEN. The computer room was essentially the finance officer's office, and she guarded her secrets jealously.

I taught myself to use a Macintosh with a tutorial. The men I worked for -- the professional and management level -- associated my ability to use a keyboard with being a typist and a secretary, and they were not having any of it in terms of learning how to do it themselves. That was then -- all of those dinosaurs must have retired by now.

When people had jobs that required the use of computers, they learned how to use them in the workplace, often through employee development programs. Now it's so common for young entry-level workers to already know this stuff that I don't know what an older person is to do if they don't go back to school.

When you say you live in a largely blue collar area, you must know that many older people's jobs will not have enabled them to do that. People with academic-type degrees will have learned how to word-process their way through a thesis or a dissertation, but they will have had no reason to learn how to use a spread-sheet.

That's why it's incumbent on you to steer them in the right direction in terms of upgrading their skills.

Oh, and as for downloading attachments on the home computer, here's a hint: those of us with old computers often can't open the damned things. And buying a new system is expensive. You might offer to send text-only messages to those who need it.

Hekate

[CK_John]

133. I have found this to be true in my area, so I have become the senior geek

and have even given home classes. The common thing I find between the 50+ and the under 10 (my nieces kids) is the 50+ people want to know what each key does before they use it, and the under 10 type the key and want to know what they did.

Example(MS systems/keyboard);Does anyone here ever use the MS Flag Key+D or MS Flag Key+E combination? Or how many use the program menu key (located between MS and Ctrl right side) or just MS Flag key by its self.

Another thing I show them how to google and ask them to put any word before the word "tutorial" and examine the results. I ask them to start with mouse tutorial, keyboard tutorial, word tutorial, (some hobby)like gardening tutorial, etc.

This seems to get them going and self discovery takes over.

[Skittles]

134. I am 50, been in IT 26 years

I don't see what you see but I do see 20 somethings who hunt and peck - don't they teach typing anymore?

[BlooInBloo]

135. Actually, I don't think they do. lol!

[tomreedtoon]

136. Computer literacy = reading literacy?

I think it's the general illiteracy of people - not simply those over 40 - that's the real problem. I've tried to teach a woman about 50 how to use the expensive computer she bought (more powerful than any of my own PC's) and she just can't figure out the symbols and processes.

She's moving out of town, and has packed her computer, but before she decided to move she was asking me "How do I print a web page so it fits on the page?" I tried to write down the menu instructions to get to the "print setup" page, but she shook her head and said "I need somebody to show me."

I had previously showed her e-mail and she forgot that. She needs someone to "show her." The mouse and left-click/right-click are a mystery to her.

I gave her one good piece of departing advice; Find a woman who knows computers. Learn from her. Don't learn from a man. Partly it's the Mars/Venus thing. Partly a woman may have concepts that another woman can understand that a man can't. (For instance, a woman once described a buffer in terms of a bathtub with the faucet running and the drain open. Weird, but true, and women can understand that.)

Anyway...literacy involves the maniuplation of symbols. What is reading, or learning a foreign language, besides getting concepts and symbols and assigning meanings to them? "I before E except after C" is structurally no different than "double click to open a file on the desktop."

Most people educated in American schools can't read. Of the remainder, a lot of people can read if they have to, but they don't like reading. If you doubt this, stand near a snack bar in a discount store. Count the number of people who face a menu showing products and prices, who keep asking the clerk "What is this and how much is it?" They're too uncomfortable with reading to try to read the menu.

This, by the way, is why giving one of these nontechnicals a book to read is pointless. If they can't manipulate the symbology of using a mouse, how can they read a book and make any sense of it? Even if the book is well written, which 90 percent of computer books aren't?

[DaveJ]

137. Good point. Unfortunately it is an agist remark.

I've worked in computer departments all my life, and I've learned to be patient with computer newbs. It helps a lot to be patient, because it takes a long time to pick up computer skills. Time really is what it is all about. I can tell if a kid grew up in a home with computers or not. It really is not their fault if they didn't. It just takes time, I'd say about a 8-12 months, but with someone being vigilant of their activities and constant exposure to computer situations they will learn eventually.

[NuttyFluffers]

144. heh, funny, i'm younger generation but i have reverse problems. :)

having to work with other countries sometimes their forms are still done by typewriter! :D have you ever seen a 20-something look horrified and stare blankly at a piece of technology? :) my mom said it was a refreshing experience. i had to call her up and ask how do you use this fandangled contraption. she gave me a crash course and whipped up half my forms before i learned how to even how to set the margins.

also, i have noticed my generation has trouble with basic social business etiquette. issues involving how to properly dress for an interview, how to write 'thank you' notes, how to properly address people (particularly foreign clients, where american familiarity is laughably rude), etc. give an older person a telephone and a chance to meet people face-to-face, from presentations, meetings, and building client relationships and i can bet you 1:3 odds that they'll run circles around people of my generation. experience has serious value, and like Sun Tsu's wisdom, the technical details of war or business may change, but one thing never will -- the human's who weild them. know how to manage humans and you can delegate specialized tasks to bring in the big hitters.

i personally think you are utilizing these people completely wrong. give them a phone list, a business account credit card, a patient secretary to teach them rudimentary tech here and there, and send them off to lunch to network for the big accounts for your non-profit. or send them off to do the hard pavement research for grants -- which when i was doing that actual wandering around the library was irreplaceable. you can do a myriad things with a computer, believe me i know, but you can still do a huge chunk of them without. a good manager plays up employee strengths until they can be well-rounded. reassign their responsibilities.

[Nikia]

169. I've had an awful time with the type writer

We actually do have forms that are filled out by typewriter. When possible, I give them to the company secretary. When she was unavailable though, I ended up wasting several forms because I had never used a manual typewriter before. Even when I do it now, I often still have problems because I am not used to it.

[NJCher]

148. one more thing

I think part of your problem might be where you are geographically.

I know that in my area you would not find this to be the situation. In fact, around here it may be the opposite--too many people with a very high level of skills.



Cher

[Hardrada]

149. 62 here, WWII child rather than a boomer.

I got my whole used and rare book biz onto the Internet by 1997. I also wrote a novel on a computer in 1992 and, yes, it was still with the old-style printer with the perforated paper! Apparently also, the above posters are not public school teachers since they, including many people my age, were using computers since 1981 here in Iowa. And have advanced with the technology every year because they have no other option.

[Evoman]

151. Its because when you get old, your brain gets all wrinkled.

.........moreso.

[mark414]

152. for the large part it's not their fault

my father is a boomer (he's 56) and is pretty well versed in computers/etc. but he's still a boomer. and he grew up in a world where he was in college when the VCR was a tremendous breakthrough in technology.

me, i am 22 years old, and right on the cusp of the late 20th/21st century techno-revolution. and while i'm old enough to remember life without cable TV, before the internet and cell phones, before home phones were cordless, i still mostly grew up with the new technology. and so it naturally came to me since i was surrounded by it.

i have an assortment of friends and/or cousins who are only 4 or 5 years younger than me...though young enough to not know life before windows 95. and their relationship with all the older and emerging technology is one of wonder - it is a 6th sense, a 5th limb. but then in 30 years their kids and grandkids will see them as dinosaurs too...

[DaveJ]

154. 22 years old eh... Let me say...

I'm 38 and unlike you, I can't remember life without cable TV. It's been around since 1948.

It's really just a matter of exposure, IMO. If an 90 year old is exposed to a PC for a year he'll learn it. If a HS kid comes from a home without a PC he'll be computer illiterate. I wish I could make some deeper analysis of it but that's pretty much it I think.

[mark414]

158. i think that's what i was trying to get at

i was just being a bit more vague and general about it.

meaning, someone my age versus someone my dad's age is more likely to be exposed to the technology. and so on and so on and so on.

[pstokely]

182. Back in your day, MTV played videos

and Yoda was a puppet

[KharmaTrain]

153. Huh? Who Do Ya Think Were The First Users?

I got my first PC in '86...nothing but a glorified word processor, but through it I learned the "marvels" of MS-DOS and have never looked back. My wife also is very competent with puters. It's usually my children that have the puter problems they can't figure out.

My late mother got her first puter in her mid 70's and she also took to it very nicely...sometimes it took a little bit for her to get her to stop making hard copies of everything she wrote or write down...step-by-step...things she wante to do, but she mastered databases...which came in extremely handy when I had to handle estate matters after she and my father passed away.

I don't see the connection between computers and voting. I have friends of all age groups who don't like computers or have need for them. In our local political group, most would prefer knocking on doors and meeting people directly than relying on their puters. Hell, I get a ton of spam (including lots of political ones) and I will ignore or delete those that are solicitations or "chain mail".

It's all personal preference...there's no "right way" when it comes to puters...only what you need, enjoy and you're comfortable with.

[Heidi]

155. And stay off of our lawns!!!!!!

Kidding, kidding.

I was born in 1963, so I'm just barely a boomer, but I started using computers in 1980 when I had my first newspaper internship. In the late 1980s, one of the newspapers I worked for sadly began purging its older employees. The excuse the executive editor used was that the older employees were unwilling or unable to learn to use Macs. Sad.

[earth mom]

156. I'm a late boomer & I'd say that many boomers just flat out don't "need" a computer in their lives.

Or for that matter, want one. While to the younger generation computers are almost like a third arm or something, with cell phones being the fourth arm. :eyes:

I have several good friends that are my age and older who have a take it or leave it attitude towards computers and the internet. One friend has never bought a computer and probably never will. The rest are NOT on the computer as much as I am, they are too busy doing other stuff-it's just not their thing.

In 1999, I wanted to buy & sell on eBay and that's how I wound up with a computer and internet. Back then, few people even knew what eBay even was and I had to teach myself everything because there was little help out there for Mac/eBay users! I was hooked and a few years later, I discovered politics and now you can't tear me away!

That said, I'd say my good friends are smart, resourceful and politically informed. None are * lovers-Thank gawd! I know if they had to or wanted to make a living with computers they would figure out how to do so. A few of them have tried eBay but mainly they have other income sources, like retail businesses, teaching, nursing or are retired. I doubt any of them will wind up in McDonalds-they are too damn smart for that!

[entanglement]

157. Part of the problem for many new learners IMHO is that things aren't intuitive

Like 'left click' and 'right click' on the mouse, or the concept of a 'folder'. Even apparently simple actions require some technical know-how. For example, if you have a large file to send, it's a good idea to compress it. Or, Jpegs are good for photos of people but are a bad choice for drawings. There is an endless number of (seemingly unrelated, to the lay-person) facts to make one's computing experience successful and pleasant.

[janx]

161. I haven't seen this with people in their late 40s or early 50s, but

I've seen it happen with people who are around 60.

[BuelahWitch]

164. I work with a 25 year old who never touched a computer

until he got his current job. I guess it was a socio-economic thing with him, although I can't believe he didn't use one in high school. You'd think they would have fired him when he admitted he couldn't use a PC, but he became one of their top sales reps in less than a year so...:shrug:

[AnotherMother4Peace]

165. My son is a computer tech w/a big organization. He fixes the big glitches, but the simple

problems are the majority of the repair requests. He and his brother are computer majors (science & engineering) in college. Because they take care of all computer problems in the house, my husband & I have "learned helplessness" in this area.

[Neshanic]

166. Well it also depends on the field of work.

Im 50. I am also a landscape architect. I know AutoCad, Adobe Creative Suite, Acrobat 8, Office 2007, and sadly Vista. I do not profess to be the pro, but I do get the stuff done. I choose to learn these things and try very hard to keep up on the latest technology. I am also not too bad trouble shooting basics, that from testing Vista, and other MIcrosoft items as they come in. But I am quite alone, as the people I graduated with in school in the field do not know how to use any of these programs. They still are under the illusion that the three martini lunch still exists. They have "other" people do these things, the younger new grads that know how to do it.

The last weed out was in 1987 to 1992. During that time in my field many fell by the wayside, not being comfortable with the computer when it reached general design use in the mid 1990's. You could still ocassionally find a person hand drawing then, but that was rare as hen's teeth. This new round of economic panic will weed out the Luddites of my generation almost entirely. I can see in 2011, when the economy gets going again to a 1992 type situation, the newer programs, advances, and generally more cool stuff will have driven my peers out or to a corner office where they are completely clueless as to how anything is done. They will just look at the work, but have no hand in producing it, other than drawing the thing on paper and handing it to a computer literate person. This is the way many offices that exist now work, more than anyone realizes, in Architecture, Civil Engineering, Landscape architecture.

On the other hand, I can't tell you how many times I have to explain the basics of a PDF to staff that prepare contracts, their complete reliance on spell check by clicking accept everytime the window opens, and forcing younger people than me to review PDF drawings with the notes attached. Also, the art of freehand drawing in the field is almost completely lost, as everything is in Sketch-up. Asking a younger person to quickly sketch their ideas out on paper gets a reaction of complete panic.

You gain some, you loose some, but I thing as the programs progress, they will become quite easy to use in the future, say in about 20 years to where everyone will be able to use them no matter the age. The next big leap in computers and how they are used is coming, and I doubt Microsoft will have anything to do with it.

[jumptheshadow]

168. Mostly it's timing

Keep in mind that computers didn't factor at all into the everyday lives of many boomers until they were in their 20s. They aren't lazy. They simply are untrained. While most of the boomers I know do have e-mail and simple computer skills, most of the ones who really are adept had to make an extraordinary effort at educating themselves in the middle of adulthood.

High school = no computers or computer training, a typewriter was used in typing class.

College = no computers or computer training.

First seven years as a professional = no computers, everything was done by typewriter. We used to type on paper with a carbon sheet. Fax machines were introduced in my mid to late 20s. I remember the one in my office sitting around for six months before it was used.

Clunky old computers were introduced into the workplace by my late 20s. I struggled to get by for a few years. Finally, during a layoff, I spent a year and a half developing software and hardware skills. I simply got tired of being at the mercy of people whose little bit of knowledge and more favorable date of birth during the workplace technology revolution enabled them to have so much power over me.

Please note: I had no family to raise and I could devote myself 100 percent to career.

I wouldn't fire those people. I would offer them training opportunities.

[OzarkDem]

170. They were hired with the understanding they had these skills

They're well paid jobs with benefits. We're a small office serving people with catastrophic illness in financial need. If you lie on your application and can't do your job, it hurts everyone, including the clients. Money spent on training (that the employees promised they already had) means a sick person doesn't get their rent or utility bill paid. That's not fair to the clients or to the long term growth of the organization.

Bottom line - don't expect to keep a viable mid-level management career very long these days if you don't have computer skills. If you don't have the skills, get them, or you'll see your job go to a younger person. That's what will happen in our office - both of these employees will be replaced by younger people with skills.

[kineneb]

171. 49, female, Linux geek

computers are cool! I have built them, repaired them and done basic sys admin stuff...

and go to LinuxWorld every year.

Gee, most of the Boomers I know are or were in the computer biz... and my mom is still working as a senior programmer/analyst for a city.

I think the older Boomers don't understand how easy it is to learn to operate a computer. They either think they are too old, or have a phobia about using technology.

[amandabeech]

173. Perhaps you should discuss their deficient computer skills with the individuals

before you fire them. There may be some way for them to find some way to quickly learn to do the operations that your office requires if their jobs are on the line. If you hired them for some reason other than their computer skills, why not try to focus on those positives while you give them a chance to get up to speed?

Posting here won't do anything to solve your problem, except to let you blow off steam so that you do not scream at these ladies when you fire them.

[OzarkDem]

174. My intent was to point out the need

of members of my generation "baby boomers" to gain good computer skills if they do not have them. There is a growing income gap between people who have these skills and those who don't, even for people in mid-level management.

Those involved in grassroots advocacy who have skills should encourage others to gain them. mmmk?

As for my employees - we've had numerous meetings, discussions and training sessions. Its now up to them to get up to speed or lose their jobs. Its a new world, you have to be your own secretary these days.

[EFerrari]

175. My mom is in her seventies and she built her last computer.

:shrug:

[AZBlue]

176. Just another example of how we ignore older generations in this country.

We're all fired up to make sure the young have access to new technology and information, but we forget the rest of the population. *sigh*

[OzarkDem]

178. The older generation has to prepare themselves

Heck, I'm 52 years old, self taught, like many others. Our generation has to take the initiative and keep our own skills updated.

We can either take care of clients with severe health problems or we can spend a lot of money training people who've already had years to pick up these skills themselves. I vote for the folks in need. Sorry. Keep your skills up to date or get left behind in the job market.

[AZBlue]

179. Oh, I agree.

I'm 41 but we didn't have computers in schools and e-mail wasn't even heard of at that point. I've taught myself everything I know on the computer and I'm always learning new things.

I also wonder if it has something to do with the impersonalization of our society recently. I have a co-worker, who I depend upon for a certain part of my job, who is in her early 60s who refuses to learn anything on the computer. She finally checks her e-mail once a day - that was a HUGE step for her. She feels it's too impersonal. She'd rather pick up the phone and talk to someone instead of e-mailing them (despite the fact that phone calls will take 7 times longer because we deal with teachers - they can't answer their phone so they have to call back and then we have to call them back and so one). She has a real mindset against computers - much to my frustration.

[fortyfeetunder]

180. A big YMMV

For boomers who entered science, engineering, technology and mathematics professions, computers were out there. COBOL, FORTRAN, PASCAL, BASIC. Tapes and punchcards led to floppy desks. And the advent of personal programmable calculators in the mid 1970's and the early personal computers in the late '70's brought many into computing.

Outside of those professions, it is likely some did not have that level of exposure to personal computing. But I would not go as far to generalize boomers as being computer illiterate.

[burrowowl]

181. A lot of us Boomers invented the software/hardware used today

I have noticed that many young people, trained for example on AutoCad can draw with it but since they don't have any training in say architecture or mechanics etc. produce really bad drawings and even when they get the backchecks, still screw the drawings up horrendously which wastes a hell of lot of paper. I am not impressed with the younsters, who often rely on what they learned on a specific application and think it is an end not a tool.
Edit to add: a 30 or so year-old engineer didn't know the difference between isometic and 3-D drawings, of course he also had a problem with gauges: want to be a 6" long and wide piece of 1 gauge stainless steel as per his drawing given to a CAD Associate Degree operator of around early 20's. The people on the factory floor were :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[pstokely]

183. Heard this song?

http://www.thefump.com/fump.php?id=30

[pstokely]

184. What's the youngest person you've run into with no computer experience?

?

[lligrd]

185. This Is The Precise Age Group That Helped Create The PC

Boom. More likely your workers are purposely sabotaging things to get out of doing the work. Pretty smart of them if you consider it. Either that or they are the same idiots that voted for *, twice.

[Greyhound]

186. Are you hiring?

I can do all of that and automate your whole operation.

We're "unemployable" because we used to make a reasonable living and know how to do more than click, drag, & script. Hell, the odds are very good that you are running at least some code I wrote in those apps.

BTW: We can give your bottom line a big boost by getting you off the M$ merry-go-round.