It Isn't A "Lifestyle" And We Don't Want "Tolerance"

[ruggerson]

Well meaning progressives keep using these two phrases, both of which are profoundly offensive.

Gays and lesbians have lives, not "lifestyles."

Gays and lesbians don't want to be "tolerated." We demand full equality and acceptance, period.

Imagine the uproar if anyone ever generalized by referring to the black "lifestyle" or proudly stated that in this country we "tolerate" jews.

"Lifestyle" and "tolerance" are both rightwing, homophobic buzz words.

It's time both liberals and the media stopped using them entirely.

[bluerum]

1. Good point. Thanks for the perspective.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

72. Is it OK to say "ditto"? N/T

[King Coal]

99. How about if we just put up with you then? Will that suit you?

[bluerum]

138. Well - if you can put up with me - you are a saint.

[LakeSamish706]

2. I never understood how they could arrive at that saying/conclusion...

How the hell can anyone even suggest that it is a lifestyle? Duhhhhh

[noamnety]

3. k&r

I grew up using the word tolerance, and it took someone a few years back pointing out to me what the implication was for me to immediately realize how offensive it is.

Thanks for helping others see it as well.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

13. On so many levels

Preaching "tolerance" for any group of people is the epitome of arrogance and condescension.

[JeffR]

4. rec #5

[Lerkfish]

5. good point.

I hope I haven't done that, myself, but I'll be even more cautious in the future.

[DesertRat]

6. Well said. k&r

[HCE SuiGeneris]

7. An easy K & R.

The media however is nothing more than a propaganda arm for the corporatists.

[Bluzmann57]

8. From what I can tell

the so called "gay lifestyle" is sorta like mine. Go to work, pay bills, enjoy an adult beverage or two while watching a sporting event, eat meals, cut grass, and generally going on about life. And there are a lot of people, gay and straight who I can't tolerate. And there are some, gay and straight, who I can tolerate. See, it's not really any of my business who you sleep with, as long as it isn't my mate.

[Jade Fox]

9. I've never understood why....

the word tolerance is supposed to be positive.

[Smarmie Doofus]

10. 'Cause it means you're supposed to be happy as long as...

... they don't KILL you.

[petronius]

14. Me neither - ever since I learned in undergrad engineering that "tolerance" is a measure of

how much deviation from the ideal one can get away with, I've always grimaced a bit when I hear the word used as such an unalloyed good thing. "Tolerance" is for things that are wrong, but not so wrong that you have to do something about them...

[druidity33]

88. what about "sustainable"?

Never sounded positive to me. What would you say if i told you my marriage was "sustainable"?

:shrug:

[cali]

11. Enthusiastic k&r

Why progressives and liberals don't see the use of such words as disrespectful and part of the rw frame, is puzzling.

[Katherine Brengle]

12. Amen.

[JitterbugPerfume]

15. Thanks for the enlightment

I honestly never thought of it in those terms

[EFerrari]

16. K&R

:applause:

[Solly Mack]

17. K&R

[glowing]

18. Personally, I don't give a shit who someone loves or what they do

in their bedrooms as long as it doesn't involve rape or abuse of a minor... Other than that its time to stop talking about sex so damn much.. The way I look at it, a relationship is a private matter... I'm not even into PDA. I think its digusting when I happen upon a couple almost having sex in the street.

[ScottytheRadical]

86. Sex is something beautiful; you shouldn't be offended by it.

To quote Salt N'Pepa, circa 1991ish...

"Let's talk about sex baby,
Let's talk about you and me
Let's talk about all the good things
And the bad things that may be
Let's talk aboout sex
Let's talk about sex!"

Which was, in part, a response to the AIDS crisis, which was surrounded by silence in so many ways by our elected leaders.

But seriously, relationships shouldn't have to be private or "in the closet", as it may be. Sex isn't the enemy in our society - things like war, poverty, and exploitation are.

So hurray for PDA's!

[cgrindley]

91. Some of it is actually pretty disgusting and/or stupid

scat, golden showers, BDSM, fisting, hard anal play... some of it is not what I'd call beautiful... and that's not getting anywhere near furries and otherkin, adult babies and whatnot, there are people out there whose sexual practices include puking on each other, jerking off onto feet or willingly participating in gang bangs.

Each to his or her own. What consenting adults do behind closed doors is their own business.

But some of it is not beautiful.

[iaviate1]

137. Why do you feel the need to cast judgment?

Or even bring this up? I don't know what it has to do with this topic or people of any particular sexual orientation.

[cgrindley]

141. It was a reply to the message claiming that sex was beautiful

I'd actually argue that all of it is at least undignified, most of it is fun, and some of it is gross.

[iaviate1]

146. I think it's beautiful that consenting adults can do many things behind closed doors.

And I think our freedoms would be even more beautiful without people casting judgment on others for merely exercising those rights. I understand that sound really harsh because we all cast judgment, but I'm just saying... why bring it up? The ick factor is one of the things that drives restrictions between consenting adults and I know it's not your intention to do that. That's all.

Peace.

[Deja Q]

139. Or dangerous. n/t

[iaviate1]

147. The danger drives people.

I don't understand it, but I don't try to stop people from parachuting either.

[glowing]

143. I didn't say it wasn't.. but I also don't have sex on main street... I love

sex.. I wrote a similie about an orgasm in college and ended up getting an A in the class because of my candid descriptions...

Sloppy PDA is disgusting to me.

[Zhade]

121. You don't have to talk about sex. but no one has to live by your code.

Sex is natural and wonderful. But, I promise not to almost have sex in front of you!

(Of course, *I* determine what that means, not you.)

[glowing]

144. Most people do not have sex all over the place... Though I've had

a few sex on the beach moments.. The PDA thing that gets me is when a couple is having a heavy make out session at the next table over while my family and young child is setting next to them...

[JitterbugPerfume]

19. oh boy! I cant wait till

someone asks me why I am so tolerant of gays , immigrants, etc. Rest assured I will explain it to them.

I live in a very homophobic area and I get asked crap like that pretty regularly.

[NMMNG]

20. K&R

Funny how we lead the same kinds of lives straight people do, yet our lives are "lifestyles" that must be "tolerated". Screw that. :eyes:

[uppityperson]

21. of course, k&r

[defendandprotect]

22. Lifestyle is a rather old-fashioned notion + surprised it's still kicking around . . ..

but MSM is a rather old-fashioned, stale place --

I'd be surprised if liberals didn't understand that "lifestyle" is an objectionable description of sexual orientation.

I think also beyond backing all rights for homosexuals that we should go even further and consider and embrace the full diversity returning to our society --

As we begin to fully appreciate the diversity of sexual orientation in our society, the better we understand ourselves and our society.

Homosexual orientation may simply be at the other end of the scale from heterosexuality -- with everyone one in the middle a mix of degrees of orientation -- as Kinsey has shown us.

When anyone is oppressed we are the poorer --
Ending discrimination against homosexuality enriches our populations --

"Tolerance" is a worthy word, however, and I don't think we should kick that out --
another word/concept distorted by the right-wing fundies --
We have tolerance here for the opinion of others which we may not agree with --
We have tolerance for all free speech which we may not agree with --


tol·er·ance
–noun 1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.
2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.
3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

[JackBeck]

23. I've always found the word "tolerance" to be condescending.

"We may not like your 'lifestyle' but we'll tolerate your existence".

Please...:eyes:

[libnnc]

24. I've always wondered how straight folks would feel

If we only "tolerated" them?

K&R

[baldguy]

25. We should tolerate the fundamentalist Christian lifestyle.

Bet they shouldn't be given special rights by the govt, and certainly don't deserve full equality.

[bperci108]

26. I'm using that frame next time some Xtian starts in....

Kudos.

:evilgrin:

[LiberalFighter]

90. I guess I'm not as tolerate as you are towards fundamentalist Christian lifestyles

I guess cause they want to impose their beliefs on me and I find it offensive.

Hmmm religious wackos want special rights so they can lord it over others.

Gays, lesbians and others don't want special rights. Just the rights everyone else have.

[baldguy]

114. Fundamentalist Christians want special rights.

They're not like us normal people.

[LiberalFighter]

133. Well if they are not normal then they should locked up in a mental institution.

[Zhade]

122. Well, considering religion is chosen and orientation isn't, you have a point.

NT!

[LeftishBrit]

27. k & r

[Hepburn]

28. Yep....

...I agree. IMO, all people just need to be equal. PERIOD. And that is not an issue of tolerance.

[abq e streeter]

29. tolerance

I'm Jewish, and never found myself offended by the term. There are different meanings of the same word, and I've always understood tolerance in this type of usage to denote simple acceptance of each other's differences. There is a Holocaust oriented "Tolerance Museum" " here, and have always appreciated its existence. As far as the use of the word "lifestyle" , I agree that that's a ridiculous and offensive term. I appreciate your objection to both terms, just simply giving my take on the semantics; that tolerance, used in this way, in my opinion, is not a demeaning, right wing term.

[mulsh]

30. tolerance is a weasle word, acceptance is much better.

I tolerate things like mild headaches. I accept and most times celebrate my gay friends and relatives. I hope they can accept me being straight and maybe do some celebrating.

[comtec]

85. I have to Tolerate teh KKK, I don't have to accept them.

I have to tolerate MANY things, none of which I am required to accept, let alone LIKE!
I think the GLBT screamers do the rest of us a dis service by demanding completely equality and acceptance. I don't accept most people, I tolerate them.

As a bi man, I am even LESS accepted by the gay community ("oh it's a phase" kind of bullshit).

I'll take toleration over overt acceptance. That's life. you tolerate much, you are not required to accept it, just leave it be.

We TOLERATE the gop party because THAT"S HOW OUR COUNTRY WORKS! We tolerate them, we can hate them outright, but it IS their RIGHT to be assholes, mindless sheep and fucking idiots!

So take all this acceptance bullshit and shove it!

And I agree, the talk of lifestyle is also utter crap! You are what you are. One can easily say being a knuckle dragging goper is a lifestyle (which would actually be correct), and they would cry it's just how they are!

[Zhade]

123. You think it's wrong to demand full equality?

Wow.

[comtec]

127. I think it's foolish to expect acceptance

acceptance Settle for tolerance, and normal legal protections. any more and you're really pushing your luck and likely to loose everything.

[Zhade]

130. That's not what you said. You said we shouldn't expect EQUALITY.

Perhaps it was just a poor choice of words - I doubt you really want to oppress yourself. :)

[hlthe2b]

31. Context may apply..

One can not legislate "acceptance," but you can do so with "tolerance"--e.g., hate crimes legislation. So, from that viewpoint, it is, indeed tolerance we must fight for.

[NashVegas]

32. Who Are These Well-Meaning Progressives You Speak Of?

Could you point me to a thread? A sound bite? A campaign brochure? Where one of the well-meaning progressives your speak of keeps using the words, "lifestyle" and "tolerance?"


Sorry to sound so clueless, but I'm just not sure what you're talking about.

Thanks.

And oh - I'm also curious as to what context you are referring to? See, in advertising and marketing, I can easily imagine there are tons of people - including progressives - who would, indeed, talk about "gay lifestyle" about as much as they do "NASCAR lifestyle."

[Smarmie Doofus]

33. "Tolerance": this thread: posts 3, 22, 29, 31.

>>>Could you point me to a thread? A sound bite? A campaign brochure? Where one of the well-meaning progressives your speak of keeps using the words, "lifestyle" and "tolerance?">>>

I'll keep u on speed dial for 'lifestyle'.

[ruggerson]

36. Here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1688463

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1685525

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1685241#1686243

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1687485#1687568

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1679285#1679550

There are literally hundreds more. Do a search.

[Redstone]

43. Ouch. I hope that many DUers follow your links and wince like I did.

Excellent rant / lesson / correction on your part.

Redstone

[NashVegas]

57. Context Is Key, Isn't It?

In every single one of those links, the topic is the hypocrisy of a Republican who has trumpeted the condemnation of the "gay lifestyle." That is integral to the usage, there.

A search on the word, "tolerance" in those threads turned up nada.

[ruggerson]

60. I told you

that there are a few hundred other references. Those are some of the most recent and if you do an archive search, you will find plenty of references to both phrases - with and without the subject of Republican hypocrisy.

The subject matter of some of those recent threads actually highlights my point, so your argument about "context" kind of backfires on you.

[NashVegas]

118. Believe It Or Not

My search on the word, "tolerance" in the GD archives turned up results where the overwhelming majority of subjects had to do with religious tolerance; behind that was the general intolerance of despotic Middle East regimes (including homosexual intolerance, but again, mostly religious); racial/political tolerance and "zero-drug" policies came in about 3rd & 4th; out of two pages of search results, "tolerance" in reference to homosexuality turned up twice, and one of those was a comment about why Condi and Shrub put up with ("tolerated") Jeff Gannon.

[yardwork]

100. I think that you might be missing the point.

The OP is directed at "well-meaning" folks who use the term "life-style" without realizing how offensive it is. You requested examples. Each of the examples links back to posts made by people who were clearly disgusted with Craig's hypocrisy, but they still used the term "lifestyle," clearly not realizing that it is highly offensive to gay people.

I am a lesbian. I am a woman who loves a woman. This is not a lifestyle. This is who I am.

I do not ask for tolerance. I ask for equal rights.

[NashVegas]

116. I Believe I Understand What You're Saying

It's just that it's all code and it means different things to different people.

When a Republican Conservative says "gay lifestyle," it's a safe bet their intention is to conjure up images of Gay Pride day in the Castro.

In the cases where Larry Craig's behavior is being pointed out, it's anonymous sex generated from visits to public bathrooms.

And then you have those who hear or see the words "gay lifestyle" and think: theatre, charity volunteering, neighborhood gentrification.

Most people aren't actually thinking about sex when they think of "lifestyle" in regards to homosexuality. Most still only have what they see on TV and in the movies or other local media, a few moments here and there when they attend a concert or other happening and see a same-sex couple being openly, casually, affectionate - which we never see in the media.

As someone said elsewhere, outside of RW territory, it's a marketing/sub-cultural term, just as "Gen-X," "Gen-Y," "Yuppie," "Boho," "Bobo" or any other group that has marketers using short-hand to describe their touchstones, their wants and their needs in the cultural marketplace.

I won't make the mistake of saying "don't be offended" to those with the complaint, but I will hope that those who are offended may eventually come to see that those who, with the best of intentions, use the words "lifestyle" and "tolerance" (especially the latter) are still plenty worthy of allying with.

[yardwork]

134. I think that you've now come full circle back to the OP's point.

The OP, and those of us who agree, aren't suggesting that well-meaning folks are not "allied" with us. We are asking people not to use two phrases that are offensive to gay people.

You can call this "code" if you like. Everything is code, when it comes down to it.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[otherlander]

71. Well, that's Zandor.

Zandor does not represent DU.

From what I can see, most DU'ers, myself included, seem to be agreeing with the O.P. of this thread.

[tekisui]

34. K&R---This will be the great understanding of this generation.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yardwork]

37. Giving this a great big PRIDE kick and recommend!

[robinlynne]

38. ok.

[tishaLA]

39. "Toleration is not the opposite of intolerance...

but the counterfeit of it. Both are despotisms: the one assumes to itself the right of withholding liberty of conscience, the other of granting it.
-- Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man

[Smarmie Doofus]

81. Best thing I read this month. Or last. nt

[baby_mouse]

40. K&R

Although I think "tolerance" will go away pretty soon, I've a nasty feeling that "lifestyle" may be with us for a long, long time yet...

[ismnotwasm]

41. K&R

[Redstone]

42. Absolutely.

And recommended.

Redstone

[BlooInBloo]

44. Wonder where the DU "I tolerate gays" mascot is today?

[treestar]

45. Maybe a website should be started

With all the proper terms?

I think there are people who stumble on them innocently.

It's starting to get hard to argue with the right wingers on this subject. I have no good explanation for it. How do you justify this creation of code words? Just to see who is informed on what the latest previously neutral term is now deemed offensive?

These people disagree so wildly, that "tolerance" is probably the most we'll get and a good thing. I'd rather see them tolerant than intolerant.

[yardwork]

101. "These people?" The most "we'll" get?

[iaviate1]

46. How about "sexual preference"

That makes me cringe even though a lot of gay friendly people use it. Preference implies a choice and over time, preferences can change. "Orientation" is more accurate, IMHO.

[ruggerson]

47. Makes me cringe too

n/t

[TommyO]

66. My sexual orientation is gay

my preference is men five years younger to ten years older, beefy, with plenty o' body hair.

Each of us has an orientation and preferences, orientation is innate and set, while preferences are subject to change.

[f the letter]

73. Independent of the issue of whether homosexuality is a choice or not,

what is the damn difference? i still don't see what change it makes if you're choosing to be homosexual or if you're innately homosexual... you're still not evil, anti-american, or immoral. What a distraction on this issue. No accident there though, right?

[TommyO]

96. You're right, choice or not it doesn't make a difference

People choose their religions and that's protected under law.

[iaviate1]

136. Great point.

But I cringe because I've been told at work and elsewhere that I should accept the "consequences" of harassment and discrimination because I made the choice to be gay or let others think I am. Simple minded people use "preference" and "choice" to justify "consequences." Frankly it hurts when I am blamed for making the decision which brought about those "consequences."

I understand and agree completely with what you're saying, but just wanted to take the opportunity to clarify. :hi:

[Zhade]

125. Yep - it's just as false as, oh, saying Nigerians have a "dark skin preference".

Completely untrue, and in this day and age unacceptable - as it should be!

[omega minimo]

48. go look at how women are being treated in the Women's Rights & Issues forum

not allowed -- not ALLOWED -- to discuss freely in a designated forum.

Take another look at all these terms.

When will Democrats realize they need women and when will the gay rights movement align with women's rights?



"We demand full equality and acceptance, period."

[LeftyMom]

119. Likely after you (general you) stop alienating most of the women on the forum

OT either way, but there you go.

[omega minimo]

142. the (general) personal attack helps how?

:thumbsdown:


so much for common cause

[NAO]

49. Mutatis mutandis for ATHEISTS. The OUT Campaign - Atheist Pride Movement

Atheism is NOT a "religion" -- saying that atheism is a religion is like saying that baldness is a hair color.

Nor, like homosexuals, do we want to be merely tolerated -- although that beats the hell out of being torn on the wheel, flayed alive, exposed to beasts, boiled in oil, or burned at the stake, which was the standard treatment Christians gave us when they had the political power to do so.

Nor do we like to be called "militant". When was the last time you heard about an atheist suicide bomber, or a war started or fought over atheistic ideas? Writing a bestselling book does not make one "militant".

Nor do we like to be called "fundamentalist". Fundamentalists are those who hold absurd beliefs in the absence of, or in stark contradiction to, evidence and reason. Just because we are confident in our assertions does not mean we are "fundamentalists". We BELIEVE in evidence; fundamentalists deny the value of evidence and reason.

We HOPE, we STRIVE to be as successful as homosexuals have been at gaining public equality and acceptance. Multiple polls conducted by several major firms show that atheists are much less trusted and much more despised than ANY other minority, including homosexuals.

We commend, admire and emulate the gay community in their struggle for full equality and acceptance. We hope someday to be as far along in OUR struggle as homosexuals are right now.


***
***


THE OUT CAMPAIGN - Atheist Pride Movement
http://outcampaign.org

[Prophet 451]

62. "Mutatis mutandis"?

Mutatis mutandis, as I understand it, means "with due alteration of details".

I must disagree on one part. I have used the term "militant athiest". I have used it for those who believe that religion should be effectively surpressed. I've used the same terms for believers who have said the same about athiests (who are, in fairness, far more widespread).

I'm a man of faith myself but that doesn't mean I would like to see any faith, including my own, insisted upon or taught in schools. My beliefs do not require you to believe them.

[Mythsaje]

79. I do not believe in revealed religion

but I'll stand up for your right to believe and their right NOT to believe. I take a dim view of anyone trying to decide for anyone else.

[Prophet 451]

83. As it should be

I think that's the important bit: So long as we respect one another's right to believe or not as we choose, the rest is gravy.

The weird thing is, I find myself agreeing with the athiest's far more than the theists these days. Perhaps that's just a result of following a minority faith but I find myself siding with the athiests in saying that no, religion shouldn't be taught in schools (aside from comparative religions and maybe history); there shouldn't be a religious test for office, even an unofficial one.

Faith should be between the individual and their deity. Mixing church and state always brings out the worst in both.

[Zhade]

129. Quibble: we're NOT choosing not to believe. We just don't believe.

We're unconvinced. It's not that we're actively choosing to disbelieve.

"Perhaps that's just a result of following a minority faith" - if you mean in the sense that you're in the minority, I get you, but atheism is not a faith (just to clarify).

I am not attacking you; you make good points. But this is an example of the kind of thing the OP mentioned.

[Prophet 451]

145. Mea culpa

Poor choice of words on my part, apologies. The "minority faith" part was referring to my own, not athieism.

[ProudDad]

67. Right ON!!!!

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. Amen!

[JerseygirlCT]

51. The lifestyle thing makes me want to scream

It so reads as code to me.

And I'm straight! I can only imagine how it makes you feel!

[FourScore]

52. Excellent point. n/t

[Azathoth]

54. "Lifestyle" is definitely a weasel word, but you're never gonna get universal "acceptance"

"Tolerance" is a standard that can be uniformly enforced: people may not like something, but they can be forced to tolerate it. Acceptance is solely a matter of attitude and belief, and it implies a certain degree of approval. You can't force someone to accept or approve of something, and attempting to do so will only provoke an extreme knee-jerk reaction.

As for the word "lifestyle" -- you're right, that's a buzzword that the radical right has been using for ages and the media has mindlessly parroted.

[ruggerson]

61. Acceptance under the law

only speaking for myself, I could care less what someone thinks of my family, as long as we have the exact same rights that everyone else has.

Broadbased social acceptance will happen with time, it's the nature of the world and the history of humanity for thousands of years. Human rights, over time, expand, they do not contract, one of the many reasons the religious right is on the wrong side of history.

[D23MIURG23]

55. Ive always hated the word lifestyle.

Style implies superficiality and whimsical choice. People have hairstyles not lifestyles. Anything called a 'lifestyle' is either a facet of a lifepath or something not worth talking about.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. I agree. "Tolerance" can imply it's something to be "tolerated".

I don't think full support for equality, including marriage equality, for our GLBT citizens is anything anyone needs to apologize for, much less explain.

You raise a good point.

Of course, that might mean that the Museum of Tolerance should change its name.

[Ellen Forradalom]

58. "Lifestyle" simply makes no sense

Do people talk about the 'blue-eyed lifestyle?'

As for 'tolerance,' I hold myself and others to a higher standard: respect.

[tomreedtoon]

59. Lifestyle does sound pretentious, doesn't it?

Like someone who doesn't simply have a life, but styles that life to make it look...special?

Well, I've known several gay men and lesbians who don't bother styling anything; they just live their lives. And I've also known some for whom the "style" is far more important than having a "life."

So I don't think I'll entirely ban the use of "lifestyle," only applying it to those people for whom the superficial is far more important than the substance. Like...George Bush's lifestyle. Or Heather Havrilesky's lifestyle. Or...

[Prophet 451]

63. What is the "gay lifestyle"?

I'm bi myself so I wouldn't know but based on observation, the gay lifestyle seems to consist of going to work, paying bills and trying to have some time left over for family.

Whenever someone uses the term "lifestyle", I can't help wondering if they believe all gay people carry on like Graham Norton.

[smoogatz]

64. "It's a choice."

Weird--I don't remember choosing to be straight. But according to all the wingnuts who say homosexuality is a choice, I did. So did they. We all choose which gender we're going to be attracted to. Who knew?

[ProudDad]

65. K&R

This can't be reiterated enough...

[Recursion]

68. Fuck "tolerance"

I'm a jaded ex-Marine and electrical engineer. There are few people, nearly none, I "tolerate". Gay people have to line up like every other MFer to get my respect. Do I "tolerate" gays? No; I assume most of them are just as much miserable assholes as the rest of us. The ones that make it are some of my dearest friends; I "tolerate" them in the sense that I would without hesitation bleed for any of them.

Fuck "tolerance". There's nothing to "tolerate" other than the common, all-too-common, stench of humanity.

[whoneedstickets]

69. Demanding "full acceptance"?

I get the equality part (formal, legal, constitutional). But doesn't acceptance have to be given voluntarily? Is there such thing as forced acceptance?

[otherlander]

70. I think they use the word "lifestyle"

because they're uncomfortable using the word "sex".

The actual lifestyle of homosexuals is pretty much like the lifestyle of heterosexuals, I think. In America, anyway.

The only difference in lifestyle I can see is having relationships / sex with members of the same gender. Presumably the dating / sex is what people in the media mean when they say "the gay lifestyle", but they're not comfortable saying "gay sex" or even "gay relationships", so they say "gay lifestyle" instead.

Which is stupid, because there are a lot of other things that make up people's lives besides who they have sexual relationships with.

And yeah, no one likes being told, "You're tolerable."

[orleans]

74. defining terms

lifestyle:
"A way of life or style of living that reflects the attitudes and values of a person or group."

"Usage Note: When lifestyle became popular a generation ago, a number of critics objected to it as voguish and superficial, perhaps because it appeared to elevate habits of consumption, dress, and recreation to categories in a system of social classification. Nonetheless, the word has proved durable and useful, if only because such categories do in fact figure importantly in the schemes that Americans commonly invoke when explaining social values and behavior, as in Rachel Brownstein's remark that "an anticonventional lifestyle is no sure sign of feminist politics, or indeed, of any politics at all." Fifty-three percent of the Usage Panel accepts the word in Bohemian attitudes toward conventional society have been outstripped and outdated by the lifestyles of millions of young people. An even greater number—fully 70 percent—accepts the word in Salaries in the Bay Area may be higher, but it may cost employees as much as 30 percent more to maintain their lifestyles, where the context requires a term that implies categorization based on habits of consumption."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lifestyle

lifestyle, to me, is appropriately used when describing income levels (upper middle class lifestyle) or living locations (urban/rural/suburban lifestyle). when you say someone is living a suburban lifestyle it drums up a mental image of a home, two car garage, kids & a dog, and backyard barbecues/grills

to talk about a gay lifestyle is absolutely absurd.
i think people who use the term "gay lifestyle" are implying a negative stereotype of promiscuity.

and on that note, i found this on a google search:

It’s Saturday night and according to the religious right, I should be out tramping around and having uprotected sex. After all, I am gay and all gay men have promiscuous lifestyles, right?

Those poor religious zealots are going to be so dissapointed to find out how I actually spent my Saturday night. Let’s see…

After I got home from running errands with Sassy, I talked with Buckaroo for awhile to see how his day went. He was hungry, so I buttered a blueberry bagel for him. Then we watched an episode of the Forensic Files that the TiVo suggested for us.

After that, I decided to test out the new Pledge I bought this afternoon by dusting my office and our bedroom. According to the label, this Pledge has an "anti-dust" formula. It’s supposed to resist dust from building back so fast. I think that’s a dubious claim, but I being the eternal optimist decided to buy it anyway. I hate dust and will do anything to get rid of it (insert your wiseass comment here, e.g. If you don’t like dust, why do you keep so much of it around?). At least the Pledge smelled really good. The label said "citrus" scent, but it wasn’t strong citrus. Just a really pleasant scent.

After I got done dusting, I read my e-mail and saw that Barbara had sent me some mail. That meant she was back from New Mexico so I called her. She was still recovering from visiting the in-laws so we didn’t talk long. We did discuss her upcoming blog redesign and what changes still had to be made.

Buckaroo had fallen asleep on the couch while watching TV so I just puttered around the house. I replaced the batteries in the sprinkler timers. I watered the plants. I even cleaned the mirror and counters in the master bathroom. Buckaroo woke up at some point and went to bed. I settled down in front of the computer.

That brings me to this point. Hmmm… I don’t recall having any unprotected sex with multiple strangers at any point of the evening. I’m also not high or drunk or strung out. I guess I must be letting the religious right down. I had an evening awfully similiar to what I imagine a normal heterosexual married couple might have. How scandalous!!!!

http://www.scott-o-rama.com/2005/07/09/my-promiscuous-gay-lifestyle/

(the use of the word tolerance has pissed me off for years as well)

[Lugnut]

75. A big K&R

Thank you for pointing out the condescension.

[Danger Mouse]

76. y'know, it's funny you say this...

on the local radio station, wpdh, there's a guy on the morning show, tobin, who does different characters. one of them is a gay psychic. when someone said to him something about tolerance, he said that tolerance is an insulting word to use. i hadn't really thought of it before. the guy who said this, though definitely on the conservative side, is very aware of racism and intolerance, and is disgusted with people who practice patronizing well-meaning bigotry.
it was an interesting comment from him...obviously, he was portraying a character, but it was a profound statement and i felt he definitely meant that.
wtf, anyway? wtf is it with 'tolerance'?
acceptance is a much better term. should be the only term.

[ingac70]

77. I don't agree on the word "tolerance"...

Right wingers loathe tolerance. And alot of them don't accept blacks or jews... but they tolerate them because society expects them too.

While full equality is something you'll probably get eventually, you aren't going to get acceptance from these individuals.

I tolerate my fundie Christian relatives, but I don't accept their behavior......

[AuntPatsy]

78. Common sense, a rarity.

[DarkTirade]

80. K effing R.

[OneBlueSky]

82. thank you! . . . tolerance implies that there's something wrong with us . . .

because of who we are, and that's just pure bullshit . . .

you "tolerate" a new puppy who pees on the carpet . . . we are complete human beings who neither want nor need tolerance (and most of us don't pee on the carpet)! . . . we demand full and complete acceptance and equality -- and will "tolerate" nothing less! . . .

[janetle]

104. I agree

I think of the word "tolerance" as something you do while you hold your nose. At our church, we eliminated the use of this word just for this reason. We are accepting, welcoming and inclusive.

[xchrom]

84. indeed. n/t

[The Count]

87. Hear, hear!

I wince when I hear those too!

[Marrah_G]

89. I wish more people would understand this

Fortunately I look at my daughter and her classmates and realize that sexual orientation doesn't mean any more to them then blue eyes or brown eyes. That gives me hope that with each passing generation these misconceptions that lead to discrimination and bigotry will continue to fade.

[amb123]

92. Homosexuality: It's Life. Not a "Lifestyle".

New slogan for GLBT Community. It should be on T-shirts, bumperstickers, etc. K & R.

[swimboy]

93. Absolutely!

:thumbsup:

And woe be unto anyone who levels a charge of "political correctness" in relation to this issue!

[JNelson6563]

94. Excellent points.

I believe gays and lesbians deserve full equality and acceptance. For the life of me I do not understand why there is such a problem with this. People are so screwed up!

What is so hard to understand about "land of the free"? Seems there's a segment of our society that is far from free in regard to their own "pursuit of happiness".

With plagues, famine, war and all manner of horrors going on in the world it is shameful that any resources at all are being wasted on efforts to continue repression of homosexuals. Shameful, shameful, shameful. And surely "Jesus wept".

Julie

[codjh9]

95. Yeah, like a gay guy wrote in a letter to the editor I read once, about the

'homosexual agenda' - he said yea, I have an 'agenda' - it's getting equal rights on healthcare, survivor's benefits, etc., just the same as ANYONE wants.

[Dora]

97. Exactly. nt

[guitar man]

98. I agree 100% with equality

I am of the opinion that the full equal rights of all people exists withing the Constitution already and it is frustrating as hell to see the implementation of those rights moving so slowly. :(

The accptance part, I don't know what remedy there is for that other than time. As the old bigots die off, hopefully the number of new bigots that take their place will become fewer and fewer. There will probably always be a certain number of bigoted assholes among us, but I think they will eventually become marginalized as time goes on.

I don't see a role that government can play in the acceptance part, as much as I disagree with the opinions of the hateful bigots, I just can't see how government dictating opinions to anyone can have a good outcome.

peace.

[immoderate]

102. Would you prefer intolerance?

Funny word, tolerance. How should I feel about activities that I might not participate in? Yes, I understand that it can be taken with a note of condescension.

"Lifestyle" for me, is about economics, and luxuries. More insidious is the mention of "agenda," which has overtones of nefarious conspiracy, rather than a list of things to do.

I'm heartened though, that these usages that you attribute to progressives rarely show up on DU.

--IMM

[renie408]

103. Personally

I don't care.

I don't care what other people's lifestyles are and I don't care who they are having sex with. That is their business. I don't *think* that means I am tolerant. I think it means that I cannot see what it has to do with me.

[mistertrickster]

105. Gee, that's great. Lash out at your friends for PC words and don't

give us a bit of credit for taking hit after hit at the ballot box for protecting gay rights.

We work to politically protect TWO percent of the population and lose elections for it, but to the GLBT PC police, it's never enough.

Thanks for nothing . . .

[ruggerson]

140. I don't know where you get your 2% figure

since 4 - 5% of the people voting in the last two or three presidential election cycles self identify to a pollster as being gay or lesbian.

And I know it's easy to play "let's blame the minority group," but there were other far more important factors than gay rights which played into what occurred in 2000 and 2004.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

106. Bush thinks homosexuality is a choice!!!!

so he said in the 2004 Pres. debates!

[AlbertCat]

107. Broccoli, chocolate covered grasshoppers, and sex

To anyone that thinks people choose their sexual orientation...

One does not choose one's likes and dislikes. You either like broccoli or you don't like broccoli. You do not choose that it taste good or not. What you do chose is whether to act on your like or dislike. You choose to eat it but not, whether you will like it or not. Your desire for broccoli is not of your choosing. Eating it is.

Sexual desire is the same. You do not choose to like girls or boys, you just do....or not. What one chooses it whether to act upon one's desires or not.

Society indeed influences these decisions. Chocolate covered grasshoppers may indeed be yummy, but in my culture eating insects is considered disgusting so I would have to overcome a considerable barrier before I could even try them. I might have been told they are dangerous to my health. I may have been told only twisted people would eat such a thing. The Bible might even condemn eating chocolate covered grasshoppers! But in reality, none of that is true and if they look good to me, I can try them. If I like them, I can continue to enjoy them.

But you get the point....

The only choice anyone is making is to ACT on their desires or not. (Are you listening Larry Craig?) The desire is still there whether satiated or not. (Are you listening ex-gay ministries?)

So much for choosing to be gay.

There used to be this thing on the Internet: "The Heterosexual Questionnaire". Anyone seen it or know where it might be? It was great! Questions like:

"When did you 1st realize you were a heterosexual?"

"95% of all child molesters are heterosexual. Do you think it is safe to let your child go to a school with heterosexual teachers?"

...stuff like that.

[IndianaJones]

108. who the hell is well meaning? nt.

[Taverner]

109. "Gays and lesbians don't want to be "tolerated." We demand full equality and acceptance, period."

I agree 100% - that's why I've always hated the term tolerance. You tolerate the flu, you accept your fellow human being.

[wtmusic]

110. Jews embrace the concept of tolerance

http://www.museumoftolerance.com

IMO there is a general concept of tolerance which applies to everyone -- whatever your sexuality, race, religion, etc.

Basically about not getting your panties in a wad because people aren't just like you are.

[Xithras]

111. Then you will die unhappy.

Acceptance isn't something that can be mandated or protested for. It is something that has to develop within the hearts of the intolerant, and as any southern black can tell you, it isn't something that people readily embrace. Tolerance is something we can aim for today. Acceptance will take generations.

[IndianaJones]

112. tolerance is an insult. nt.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

115. this isnt about personal acceptance, its political acceptance

[Xithras]

117. That division is artificial.

Political acceptance requires personal acceptance. Take gay adoption as an example. You probably look at that as a political right, and take the obtaining of that right as political acceptance. But to ACCEPT a gay couple as parents, straights have to also accept that the relationship itself is legitimate and that the couple would make acceptable parents. That requires personal acceptance. If gays are given the right to adopt without being accepted as good and equal parents, they are being tolerated, not accepted. Acceptance requires an acknowledgment that the other person is an equal human being. Rights without this kind of acceptance is merely toleration.

Same with gay marriage, inheritance rights, etc.

As a bisexual man, I fully agree that acceptance is the goal. Attacking the term "tolerance" is counterintuitive to this goal, because tolerance is an important and necessary step toward acceptance. People will not simply make the leap from intolerance to acceptance. First they hate us, then they tolerate us, then they accept us, then they embrace us. That's how it has to work.

[valerief]

113. And I was just getting used to using "the anti-choice lifestyle" and "the Catholic lifestyle."

But your point is well taken.

[Zhade]

120. Let me just add, people are EXPECTED to support our full equal rights here.

Skinner himself has said that if you do not support our full rights (including marriage) you are NOT welcome at DU.

He is very right to say so, and I'd like to remind people that if you don't support us, you should at least stay silent on the subject - bigotry and discrimination against us are not allowed here.

[IndianaJones]

124. thats a dream. nt.

[Zhade]

131. Dream or not, if you don't support us YOU ARE NOT WELCOME per the admin of this site.

NT!

[IndianaJones]

132. that can be said of lots of things. yet it happens with regularity. nt.

[DFW]

126. I agree completely with the OP

And I'm straight and happily married for 25 years.

[Beer Snob-50]

128. Good Point

I have used those terms in the past, and I guess I never thought of them as being offensive. I will not be using them in the future.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

135. I think you're misinterpreting the word.

tol·er·ance
–noun

1. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward those whose opinions, practices, race, religion, nationality, etc., differ from one's own; freedom from bigotry.

2. a fair, objective, and permissive attitude toward opinions and practices that differ from one's own.

3. interest in and concern for ideas, opinions, practices, etc., foreign to one's own; a liberal, undogmatic viewpoint.

One might tolerate things one does not like, smokers in a restaurant for example. That does not mean that tolerance implies dislike.