The fact is the president who does withdraw our troops from Iraq is conceding defeat

[NNN0LHI]

The president who removes our troops admits that the largest, most technologically advanced and most expensive (we was robbed) military in the world got whipped by a few thousand "dead enders" using bombs built in Pepsi cans and detonated with Craftsman garage door openers.

And no one is going to be elected president with that platform.

So there it is.

As some goofy Colonel once said, "This war is going to end some day."

Don

[Greyhound]

1. Not a fact at all, and thanks for promoting the reich-wing frame.

The military won, decisively, long ago. The defeat that we and the Iraqi's have suffered was political and done deliberately.

But then, you already knew that.:eyes:

[NNN0LHI]

3. If the military won as in "Mission Accomplished" when did the Iraqis concede defeat?

Did I miss it?

Don

[dkofos]

When Saddam didn't show up for work.

[Ghost in the Machine]

14. When did we go to war against Iraqis??

Your whole concept is flawed if that's your belief.

[NNN0LHI]

37. On March 20, 2003 at approximately 02:30 UTC n/t

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

[Ghost in the Machine]

51. Wrong answer. We went in to remove Saddam and to fight Al Qaeda

terrorists, NOT in a war against Iraqis. We went to war *in* Iraq, not *against* Iraq. We won our objective, which was to topple Saddam's regime. WE ALREADY WON. The premise of your OP is still flawed.

Where have you been for the last 4 years?

[NNN0LHI]

52. Where at and on what date was the cease-fire agreement signed between the combatants?

Because over the last four years our soldiers have been stationed in a freaking shooting gallery.

Why do you suppose those defeated Iraqis keep trying to kill our soldiers stationed there? They didn't get the memo that they were defeated 4 years ago or something?

Don

[Ghost in the Machine]

53. Where and on what date did Congress sign a Declaration of War against Iraqis?

"Why do you suppose those defeated Iraqis keep trying to kill our soldiers stationed there? They didn't get the memo that they were defeated 4 years ago or something?"


Ummm... because we're STILL THERE 4 YEARS AFTER DECLARING "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"??

Suppose China or Russia decided that WE needed a regime change and invaded us. Would *we* greet them as liberators? Short answer: yes, at first.

Would we STILL see them as liberators if they were here bombing our infrastructure and killing our citizens who took up arms against them? Meh.. not so much. But they would sure report back home about how many "insurgents" they had killed today.

Again, your whole basic concept of your OP is FLAWED and illogical. Time to go back to the drawing board, my friend.

[Ghost in the Machine]

56. **crickets**

[Greyhound]

15. Apparently you miss quite a bit. After we defeated the Iraqi military we disbanded it. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

34. Historically wars have ended when the loser sues for peace

Bush tried that Mission Accomplished BS when he singlehandedly declared the war was over on that boat, but guess what? The Iraqis weren't ready to give up. Iraqis are still killing our soldiers 4 years later at a pretty good clip. Could it be members of the Iraqi military that Bush declared disbanded who are killing our soldiers? Or did they all just give up as Bush ordered?

China could declare that our military is disbanded too. Would that make it so?

See the flaw in your theory?

Don

[Greyhound]

54. Again, you missed some pretty important news. We had a chance for peace,

shortly after the military victory, it was Bremer & Co. brilliant idea to, instead of doing what we know from experience works so well, that being giving the money to the people's government so they could go about rebuilding their newly demolished country, instead we declared a feeding frenzy for well connected thieves and turned them lose on the citizens of Iraq.

Of course, they were a little upset about what we did to them after defeating their military, and so we started the insurgency against the occupation ourselves. A clusterfuck that only arbusto_® could, in his uniquely incompetent way, create. So we are talking about two different wars, the first one the military went in and did what it does so well, the second one manufactured and for which we have no way to win.

So again, we won the war and began the revolution immediately afterward. Kind of like attacking the only country in whole region that had a secular government and no tolerance for terrorists, and gave them a religious war and invited in a bunch of terrorists.

This is what happens when you select someone that has failed at everything he's ever done in his life, except for conning people even dumber than he is, as resident.

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

2. Wouldn't be the first time.

Actually, it's an historical cliché.

Oh, and fire that colonel and give him a job calling ballgames.

[EFerrari]

4. And if the Democrats could frame sh!t, they could pull it off.

Sometimes, I wonder about the average IQ in the leadership. Okay, today, I'm P!SSED.

Burma is exploding and this criminal government will do nada because it is protecting their cronies' investments. And, this is just the latest.

[quiet.american]

6. Bing-go. n/t

[EFerrari]

13. It's so awful when you realize what is really happening.

I'm this close to just shutting up shop.

[Greyhound]

16. East Timor. n/t

[EFerrari]

19. Yes.

:(

[Greyhound]

20. We suck, and all because we are rules by corporations/ruling class. n/t

[baldguy]

5. Then we were defeated as soon as we invaded.

Our rule of law was defeated. Our moral leadership in the world was defeated. Our sense of reality was defeated.

We lost our way when the Bush Regime was allowed to take power. We lost our sanity the Bush Regime allowed us to be attacked on 9/11.

To regain our honor, our laws, our morality and our sanity will require many years of intense directed therapy - or revolution.

[NNN0LHI]

12. Not necessarily

I am being honest here when I say that the effects of Shock and Awe alone could have very well been enough to have had me waving American flags if I were an Iraqi. I am afraid I would have given up and laid down after that. I think a lot of American people would have. But I am soft. I shell shock easily.

But the Iraqis took it. Christ, they are still taking it. And they are still fighting. And I don't think they will quit fighting now. They sense victory.

Don

[asjr]

27. I know what you mean. This really

is not a "war." Never has been. The next president may well have to apologize to the Iraqis for ever invading them in the first place. We, the people, didn't authorize it. An out-of-control illiterate buffoon, with aspirations of becoming a dictator, invaded out of spite. "They tried to kill my Daddy." We will be living with this image for a very long time. Ultimately the Iraqis will do whatever they want to do whether we pull out now or later. A candidate for president should not be afraid to say I'll bring our military home NOW! If this is a war a good general knows when to retreat. We have no face left to save.

[NNN0LHI]

29. We need to concentrate on the next generation of Iraqis

The current one is lost. They will never trust us no matter what we say or do. Can't say I blame them.

So we need to expend a lot of money and effort reaching the minds of the post-occupation Iraqi children. We have to guarantee to them we do owe a huge financial debt to them for our past misdeeds. And then we need to follow up with the cash. If we don't we will regret it.

Don

[baldguy]

36. Win their hearts & minds?

Then destroy the village in order to save it?

Just as in Vietnam, the US military in Iraq will not loose. But ...

Our involvement in Iraq is unsustainable because the reasons presented to go in were lies. And now, after being there for so long, there's really no reason to stay.

The US military will not loose the war in Iraq, but they have already lost our soul.

[NNN0LHI]

40. More like kiss their asses

We may need to ask them very politely if they have any spare oil they would be nice enough to sell to us some day?

Don

[aquart]

7. Yep.

Which is why it's ridiculous to ask. Nobody with an actual chance of winning is going to say we're pulling out.

Whoever does win is going to spend at least four years eyebrow-deep in shit.

[EFerrari]

10. But it can be framed as cleaning up after Mr. Danger.

What is the effen' problem?

The Democrats are looking at regaining both houses AND the White House because the electorate is so tired of these losers.

They aren't making the case. Again.

/sorry, too mad to type

[Benhurst]

8. Well, hardly a few thousand "dead enders." According to a government poll

67% of the Iraqis think it's all right to kill Americans. If that be the case, then an overwhelming percentage must want us out of their country.

We've killed over a million of them, several million have fled in terror; but there are still 23 million or so of them, of which at least 17 million want us to get the hell out of their country.

Just how many troops is it going to take to continue to occupy an increasingly hostile country? On the order of several million, I would guess. Even with such numbers, the occupiers and mercenaries will eventually be driven from Iraq.

[Greyhound]

18. The last figure I heard on the radio a couple of days ago was 85% want us to leave. n/t

[MADem]

9. No, that's not true at all.

I mean, really.

The 'enemy' was Saddam and his regime, so BushCo said.

Saddam is dead, the regime is too. They have a democracy of sorts, if they can keep it.

Our only problem is that we stayed too long at the fair. Almost four thousand bodies too long...

You can sell ice cubes to Eskimoes with the right packaging. Should be easy to sell "Mission Accomplished--Let's get the fuck out" to the seventy-plus percent of the USA that are already on board with that idea.

[EFerrari]

11. Thank you. n/t

[spanone]

17. admitting bu$h* fucked up, not defeat.

[blm]

22. That's what I liked about Biden's answer in NH debate - he put it all on Bush and

said he'd withdraw troops IMMEDIATELY if he took office IF Bush didn't take advantage of Senate withdrawal plans.

He said by then, if Bush hadn't started withdrawing, then there is no chance for any mission, and the troops would merely be FODDER at that point.

I thought that was the best reply of the night and CERTAINLY the most SIGNIFICANT, but you'd never know it from corpmedia.

[golddigger]

21. Hmmm...

I thought we already won. It seems I remember a banner that said "Mission Accomplished".

Unless your saying we were defeated because we didn't win the oil fields for Bushit and go f**k yourself Cheney"s oil buddies!

[scarface2004]

23. that s right..iraq kicked our ass, deservedly so....

shows what a great leader the commander guy is doesn t it!!

[OHdem10]

24. jYou are right on point. It has been setup so Dems take the fall

no matter what.

Republicans have set it up so troops are in Iraq at the time
of the election. As long as the troops are there we are not
losing. The fact is Withdrawal of Troops will be messy. Let
us pretend GWB started withdrawal tomorror, it would be messy
but they would blame it on the Dems. If the Dems win and after
the election, start withdrawal, it is still going to be messy.
The Gop will be out yelling--See, we told you the Dems could
not run wars.

This is common sense NOT RW SPIN.

No matter who is in charge we will be there 10 years.

[JVS]

25. courage

[shadowknows69]

26. Nice "Apoc. Now" ref NN0LHI

"Smells like victory"

NOT.

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. I think even the least politically-wired people are smarter than you,

if that's what you believe. The days when the most right-wing red-necks prized national, Rambo fantasies above their own best interests are long gone. Now, it's their own financial survival they concerned about, and the astronomical expense each day - never mind each year - incurred by your country's digging itself in an ever-deeper hole, which you appear to see as a vote-winner.

[EFerrari]

30. I disagree. Don is just saying the premise that the Democratic leadership

is basing its policy on.

And, they are wrong. WRONG.

[Joe Chi Minh]

33. Good. I'm glad I misunderstood it. And I used to be puzzled by the

need for sarcasm tags! I seem to be getting more and more irony-proof.

[EFerrari]

35. We all are.

Edit: for years since BushCo stole the election, I send out routine apologies to my friends across the pond.

Sorry, we're trying and we won't give up.:(

[Greyhound]

55. Are you sure? n/t

[EFerrari]

57. About Don or about the strategy?

Hi there, greyhound1966.

[Greyhound]

58. The strategy, but both.

I really thought this was another "it can't be done, our intrepid Democrats are powerless in the face of ultimate evil", threads.

[EFerrari]

59. Unless I'm misreading (which happens), I don't think so.

:)

[renie408]

31. I don't think that crap plays today like it did four years ago.

People just aren't buying it. The majority of Americans just want this over. Period. Forget about winners and losers. Over.

[Lerkfish]

32. so said the last lemming as it leapt to its death.

just because you make a mistake doesn't mean you have to keep on making it instead of correcting it.

[bigtree]

38. kind of like terrorists conceding defeat when they disband

this is nonsense. There is nothing to 'win' in Iraq. There are only the aftereffects of an illegal invasion and undemocratic occupation in Iraq. Battles producing nothing more than lives lost and the elevation of a new Iraqi autocracy.

[EFerrari]

41. This action was just cover for a corporate grab.

That's all it was.

[B Calm]

39. No! The president who withdraws the troops, don't have his hand

in the cookie jar!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

42. In the words of the late Sen. David Aiken (R-VT)

When David Aiken was asked how the US should get out of Vietnam he answered curtly "In boats".

[BlooInBloo]

43. That's how republicans will characterize it. Democrats are scared that the public is stupid...

.... enough to believe it. A valid worry.

[bigtree]

44. can't they also see that the emperor has no clothes

the problem is that our Dem opposition hedges too much and leaves room for the possibility that some part of the rape of Iraq was either necessary or beneficial.

[lovuian]

45. My republican friends say the same thing We can't lose

but we already have failed miserably in Vietnam Afghanistan and now Iraq and soon to be Iran

our military is a bureaucratic mercenary force that is inefficient

[Disturbed]

46. Winning or Losing are concepts dependent upon definitions.

What were the goals of the Busholini Regime regarding Iraq before the Illegal Invasion?

Have those goals been met?

[L. Coyote]

47. Is this a quote from the Fuhrer? All it says is that Bush was wrong.

[ThomWV]

48. Frame the goal as removing Sadam, remind the world he is dead, declare victory, come home.

[NNN0LHI]

49. I don't think the Iraqis will let us get away with declaring victory

Or the non-USA media either.

The only way we half way manged to pull off "Peace With Honor" is because there was no internet back then.

Don

[liberalsoldier5]

50. We Won the War.

This is all our Democratic candidate needs to state and make very clear to the entire American public:

- We won the war.

- Saddam and his vile sons are dead.

- The Iraqi people have "freely" elected a new democratic government and constitution.

- Instead of the anti-American Baathist party in power, there is now the pro-American al Maliki administration.

- After a long trial, the new Iraqi justice system sentenced thier former dictator and his top officers to death.

- The Iraqi military is now a U.S. ally, and is helping us hunt down insurgent fighters including al Qaeda terrorists (like al Zarqawi) throughout the country.

- Similar to Afghanistan, we won the war.

- AND NOW WE MUST BEGIN REDEPLOYING OUR BRAVE HEROES OUT OF HARM'S WAY AND BACK HOME TO BE SUPPORTED.

How can the GOP compete with that? And that's how we'll win the 2008 election. I can't wait... :toast: